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Umarth
2007-05-06, 12:04 PM
My group has a disagreement on whether or not giving an intelligent spider skill points in tumble is okay by RAW and thematically.

I was curious what other people’s opinion on spiders tumbling are.

Inigo_Carmine
2007-05-06, 12:20 PM
I don't see why not. What are the arguments against?

Yvian
2007-05-06, 12:22 PM
Sure, why not?

By RAW, they certain can take it as a cross class skill. And in real life they have excellent agility. If you want to argue that they can not naturally “Tumble” they I would give them a racial penalty – but that would be a dm’s call on flavor.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-06, 12:30 PM
Tumble isn't "rolling on the ground", at least, not all the time. Tumble can also be simply nimbly moving out of the way--something that spiders can do rather readily.

Umarth
2007-05-06, 12:46 PM
That was my view as well.

The counter argument was they aren’t built "correctly" to "tumble" around. To many legs, wrong body shape, ect.

I will admit I get a kick out of the idea of a spider with all it's legs stretched out rolling around like a wheel.

ishi
2007-05-06, 12:50 PM
Arachnid cartwheels?

mikeejimbo
2007-05-06, 12:54 PM
I will admit I get a kick out of the idea of a spider with all it's legs stretched out rolling around like a wheel.

Hehe, that's what I thought when I read the title. Either that or it pulls all its legs into a ball and rolls around.

I think they should get tumble, myself.

Dervag
2007-05-06, 01:02 PM
Well, they don't have to roll like a wheel to tumble.

For humanoids, rolling on the ground is the most efficient way to tumble. But that doesn't mean that nonhumanoids won't have their own ways of moving around an opponent or minimizing harm from hitting the ground that don't involve rolling around on the floor.

Spiders are extremely agile creatures in real life; they arguably should be able to make use of deliberate Tumbling if they're smart enough to understand the concept of avoiding Attacks of Opportunity.

Lemur
2007-05-06, 01:09 PM
Tumbling is more or less specialized movements gained through training. What these movements are depends on the body of the creature tumbling. A spider can tumble, but it's not going to look like the same kind of movement as a humanoid tumbling.

Your friends are assuming that only humanoids can tumble, probably because they've never seen a creature other than a human (or maybe a monkey) do acrobatic movements, and have trouble imagining a non-human creature doing so. Needless to say, it would be quite the sight to see a spider tumbling, since acrobatic movements for it would be significantly different from a human (but still equally effective).

Now, if a human polymorphed himself into a spider, I'd argue that he'd take a significant penalty to tumble checks, due to the different body mechanics.

Deathcow
2007-05-06, 01:48 PM
Plus, since when does DnD make sense when you compare it to real-world physics?

Actually, my group tends to take glitches like this and just run with them. Like the DM will say "The four-foot spider ninja-flips over your head and attacks you from behind" or something, and then explain that the spider has ranks in Tumble, and we'll move on with the game.

Roderick_BR
2007-05-06, 02:10 PM
Ever tried to swat a spider while it runs? It jumps out of the way in ways your eyes can't follow. That's tumble for me. Use that arguments to your friends.

And no, RAW doesn't say a 8 legged creature can't tumble for any reason.

Umarth
2007-05-06, 02:56 PM
Other animals tumbling also would be very funny.

Awakened elephant with rogue/ninja levels.
The elephant plants his trunk in front of you and with a dexterous jump, using his trunk as a pivot, back flips behind you and...sneak attack gores you with a tusk.

Piccamo
2007-05-06, 05:41 PM
Just ask your friendly neighborhood Spiderman if spiders can tumble :P

Tor the Fallen
2007-05-06, 08:14 PM
Spiderman has somewhat misled people on the speed, strength and agility of spiders.
It'd be a pretty mundane animal to get superpowers from.

The difficulty in hitting a spider comes not from its tumbling ability, but the fact that you're a medium creature and it's diminuitive or even fine, making an attack with a weapon you are likely not proficient with. Unless someone's burning feats on EWP: Flyswatter.

Dervag
2007-05-06, 09:11 PM
The idea is that he has the proportionate physical abilities of a spider; spiders can lift many times their own body weight and move a large fraction of their own body width very quickly (i.e. dodge fast). Of course, since they are very small and weigh very little, that isn't very impressive. If a human being had the same abilities scaled up to human weight and size, he'd be jumping over two-story buildings and lifting cars. Which is kind of the point.

Also, I should point out that even if spiders that we know can't tumble, that's because they aren't intelligent and not because they are physically incapable of making acrobatic moves to avoid harm. Tumbling involves the use of practiced moves that nonintelligent creatures won't be able to do.

TheOOB
2007-05-06, 09:33 PM
When you look at what the tumble skill does, namely move through threatened/occupied spaces without provoking AoOs, avoiding falling damage, and so on, there is no reason a spider couldn't tumble. They may not tumble the same way a human does, but they can do those things.

FdL
2007-05-06, 09:57 PM
I consider Tumble to be not a fixed movement manouver, but just any type of movement that succeeds in deftly evading the opponent.

So a spider can definitely Tumble, and as I was thinking today, snakes, for example, should be able to easily tumble into, around or through a square occupied by an enemy. Especially smaller ones, which brings in mind a good point which is size.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-06, 10:13 PM
Other animals tumbling also would be very funny.

Awakened elephant with rogue/ninja levels.
The elephant plants his trunk in front of you and with a dexterous jump, using his trunk as a pivot, back flips behind you and...sneak attack gores you with a tusk.

Seeing as how elephants simply can't jump (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant#Legs_and_feet)...

Oh wait, this is D&D.

Wolf_Shade
2007-05-07, 01:51 PM
Hehe, that's what I thought when I read the title. Either that or it pulls all its legs into a ball and rolls around.

I've seen spiders do this. Granted, they may not have been purposely rolling, but they ceratainly tucked into a ball on purpose.

Demented
2007-05-07, 05:01 PM
They do that to look dead. I've never seen a spider tumble, but then again, they've never needed to, since real life doesn't have rules for attacks of opportunity. Spiders always do springing attacks (or lunges, really)... either grappling you if successful, or backing off if not.

Seffbasilisk
2007-05-08, 09:36 AM
I've seen spiders do this. Granted, they may not have been purposely rolling, but they ceratainly tucked into a ball on purpose.

I too have seen a spider curl up and try to roll away, don't remember the exact type of spider though...

I would definitly give a spider tumble.

As for elephants and jumping, just think of this, falling damage applies upon coming down from a jump unless jump and tumble checks are made. If you go by weight......

Reinboom
2007-05-08, 09:46 AM
The idea is that he has the proportionate physical abilities of a spider; spiders can lift many times their own body weight and move a large fraction of their own body width very quickly (i.e. dodge fast). Of course, since they are very small and weigh very little, that isn't very impressive. If a human being had the same abilities scaled up to human weight and size, he'd be jumping over two-story buildings and lifting cars. Which is kind of the point.


I would like to correct this, if a spider's abilities are scaled in size, well.. they can't. The spider (or spider like figure) would collapse under it's own weight. It's the actual concentration of molecules of the small size that allows incredible strength with small creatures. Even look at animals such as cats and rodents. They can fall out of a tree, if it was proportioned correctly, well, humans can't normally fall out of a 10 story building.
The actual size and concentration of mass is a HUGE part of this.
The reactionary traits of a spider (and most insect sized creatures) also comes from their size. It takes less time for their minds to send the reactionary judgement calls to the rest of their bodies'. Also, their minds are much more designed for this anyways, since they don't have the rest of the intellect to 'reason through it' first.

That aside and to topic.
taking from the relative tumble entries in dictionary:
-verb used without object
4. to perform gymnastic feats of skill and agility, as leaps or somersaults.
7. to roll about by turning one way and another; pitch about; toss.
8. to stumble or fall (usually fol. by over): to tumble over a sled.
-noun
19. an act of tumbling or falling.
20. a gymnastic or acrobatic feat.

Most of those applies to a spider.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-08, 10:04 AM
I would like to correct this, if a spider's abilities are scaled in size, well.. they can't. The spider (or spider like figure) would collapse under it's own weight. It's the actual concentration of molecules of the small size that allows incredible strength with small creatures. Even look at animals such as cats and rodents. They can fall out of a tree, if it was proportioned correctly, well, humans can't normally fall out of a 10 story building.
The actual size and concentration of mass is a HUGE part of this.
The reactionary traits of a spider (and most insect sized creatures) also comes from their size. It takes less time for their minds to send the reactionary judgement calls to the rest of their bodies'. Also, their minds are much more designed for this anyways, since they don't have the rest of the intellect to 'reason through it' first.

That aside and to topic.
taking from the relative tumble entries in dictionary:
-verb used without object
4. to perform gymnastic feats of skill and agility, as leaps or somersaults.
7. to roll about by turning one way and another; pitch about; toss.
8. to stumble or fall (usually fol. by over): to tumble over a sled.
-noun
19. an act of tumbling or falling.
20. a gymnastic or acrobatic feat.

Most of those applies to a spider.

Reina, you're applying science to a comic-book superhero whose anatomy altered itself when he got bitten by an irradiated spider. Let's just say, "It's magic!" and be done with it, yeh?