Pixies perhaps not so OP at CR 1/4

[Shining Wrath]

These are their spells: confusion, dancing lights, detect evil, detect thoughts, dispel magic, entangle, fly, phantasmal force, polymorph, sleep

I have underlined the ones that require the pixie to concentrate; and their invisibility requires them to concentrate. So yes, they get to fire off level 4 spells; and then they are visible, within range, and have 1 HP. A pixie that turns someone into a mouse has to remain visible for so long as that person is a mouse; their friends may take exception.

Against a single monster, a pack of 8 is dangerous. Against a pack of monsters, not so much, especially if there are any archers or spell-slingers.

[Occasional Sage]

Huh. That's an interesting point, which I haven't seen in other "OMGPIXIEWINXOR" threads.

I'd be interested in seeing a 3PC vs. 3Pixie encounter played out.

[SharkForce]

visible, but not necessarily within reach. they can, for example, cast a spell and then fly away.

plus, if you're confused, you probably don't get to fight back.

and enemies under the effect of phantasmal force are likewise unlikely to be able to retaliate.

and if they're low enough HP, sleep is basically an auto-win.

entangle keeps enemies from fighting back.

and polymorph can still allow them to power up an ally, so that whatever CR it is you have to defeat it twice.

so no, it doesn't make CR 1/4 appropriate.

[Nifft]

You're right, they're not guaranteed to be overwhelming -- especially if the opposing team has area-attacks like fireball.

But still, turning one level 4 spell slot into 8x polymorph for an hour ... that's strong. Even stronger as utility magic ("let's all turn into birds and fly").

[Mellack]

I still think you would have a hard time. A pixie at about 60 feet away polymorphs one guy into a snail and becomes visible. Then they use their move to fly another 30 feet away, and behind cover. Or Confusion from 90 feet out, then the same. If the spell ends, they go invisible and reset. I think you would find the pixies have a hard time killing any PCs, but they can pretty freely mess with them as they want, assuming there is something for them to hide behind. I always picture them attacking in forests.

[Nifft]

I think you would find the pixies have a hard time killing any PCs, but they can pretty freely mess with them as they want, assuming there is something for them to hide behind. I always picture them attacking in forests.

Yeah. Or as a force-multiplier for a more physical threat, such as an owlbear or a party of PCs.

[Steampunkette]

So long as the saves are failed without anyone succeeding that works fine, sure.

But if one person with ranged attacks succeeds they walk around the cover, or even to a point where the pixie just has slightly less than full cover and use spell sniper or sharpshooter to ignore it, fire off a shot, and that's a dead pixie, so long as they hit a mediocre armor class...

(Players tend to have better bonuses than Pixies do, as well!)

[Grey Watcher]

I always thought the "Pixies are OP" line wasn't so much about them as the PC's foes, it was that the summoning spells, as written, could let you summon a squad of Pixies who could then confuse, polymorph and otherwise wreak havoc on your foes, all for the cost of a single spell slot (and does summoning even require concentration?).

[Nifft]

I always thought the "Pixies are OP" line wasn't so much about them as the PC's foes, it was that the summoning spells, as written, could let you summon a squad of Pixies who could then confuse, polymorph and otherwise wreak havoc on your foes, all for the cost of a single spell slot (and does summoning even require concentration?).

Indeed.

And the spell does require Concentration, but it's still a fantastic power-up: for the price of one Druid's Concenrtation, you get eight instances of Concentration which you can apply to Polymorph the PCs into some utility forms for an hour.

[Malifice]

Also: Pixies.

Roleplaying them properly they aren't exactly the most reliable of allies.

They may also polymorph the party into cats to chase the monster mice.

For giggles.

[bardo]

Sprites, also at CR 1/4, have the same invisibility but instead of spells have tiny weapons: Longsword +2 to hit, 1hp damage. Shortbow +6 to hit, 1hp damage and DC10 poison. If Pixies are not OP for CR 1/4, then Sprites must be UP for CR 1/4.

Unlike most other conjured beings, pixies do not form a physical barrier that protects the caster. One way to deal with them is to hit the caster hard, break concentration, then all the the pixies disappear and all their active concentration spells fizzle. As mentioned before, fireball and other save-for-half-damage AoE spells are Death to Pixies.

Bardo

[HoarsHalberd]

Nobody who complains about pixies being OP is talking about fighting them. They are talking about conjuring them. (Which thankfully is no longer a viable tactic even if I dislike the overall change.) They obey verbal commands so you can order them to polymorph all four characters into the highest CR beast you know of then scatter.

If you're fighting a level appropriate encounter you've just turned it into an effortless encounter. At level 7 for a 4 person group a deadly encounter is going to be 2 CR 7 creatures. You outnumber them 2-1 with CR 6 mammoths that turn back into adventurers if they even manage to get rid of them. The encounter is trivialised by the spell slot. It gets even worse at 8th level where you then have 2 chances to do it a day and can have them turn you into CR 8 tyrannosaurus'. Thankfully there's no higher CR beasts than that.

[Joe the Rat]

Also: Pixies.

Roleplaying them properly they aren't exactly the most reliable of allies.

They may also polymorph the party into cats to chase the monster mice.

For giggles.
Sold!

I've already established that pixies don't like the fey warlock (for reasons). I'll whip up a batch to pester the party next time they go into the woods. I can already hear the cleric's player's screams of frustration....



I really need to stop coming here before game night.

[pwykersotz]

visible, but not necessarily within reach. they can, for example, cast a spell and then fly away.

plus, if you're confused, you probably don't get to fight back.

and enemies under the effect of phantasmal force are likewise unlikely to be able to retaliate.

and if they're low enough HP, sleep is basically an auto-win.

entangle keeps enemies from fighting back.

and polymorph can still allow them to power up an ally, so that whatever CR it is you have to defeat it twice.

so no, it doesn't make CR 1/4 appropriate.

I agree. Re-CR all monsters whose abilities can be potentially heightened due to advanced tactics or niche situations!

Very few of your ideas render the pixie protected from a crossbow bolt from a party member. Or a cantrip. I see your side of it, but at this point the argument has become a series of nested 'if' conditions for the Pixies to even be relevant, much less OP. IF the GM lets the spell summon pixies. IF they get out of range in time. IF the opponent fails their save. IF the opponent has no allies to pull them out. And gambling all that with a spell slot that could be used for something else.

Unless you're referring to encountering them in the wild without the spell. THAT is a whole bunch of new conditions.

That said, turning a foe into an equal CR foe is a neat trick. I don't think I'd seen that one yet. Good thinking on that one. If the party had to fight through something like that, I'd hand em double exp.

[tieren]

I don't think it has to be terribly niche to be crazy broken effective.

For instance 4 pixies turn 4 party members into giant apes, other 4 pixies cast fly on giant ape PC's, giant flying monkeys go wreck next encounter or two while the pixies and the druid who summoned them have tea back at camp.

[coredump]

This thread is hilarious. The "solutions' are never going to work that way.

Lets say you have 5 PCs against 5 bad guys. One PC conjures 8 pixies, who manage to polymorph 4 of the bad guys.

1) Lets assume you are correct, and the single bad guy can 'get around' the cover, and just happens to also have Sharpshooter. And does manage to hit. And lets even assume he managed to guess right and ended *a* polymorph.

2) You *still* have 4 PCs ready to take out those 2 bad guys.

3) Next round you have 5 pixies trying to polymorph 2 bad guys.


While we can create various contrived scenarios where it is not an 'auto-win'.... we cannot create a scenario where it isn't overpowered.

[Malifice]

Nobody who complains about pixies being OP is talking about fighting them. They are talking about conjuring them. (Which thankfully is no longer a viable tactic even if I dislike the overall change.) They obey verbal commands so you can order them to polymorph all four characters into the highest CR beast you know of then scatter.

If you're fighting a level appropriate encounter you've just turned it into an effortless encounter. At level 7 for a 4 person group a deadly encounter is going to be 2 CR 7 creatures. You outnumber them 2-1 with CR 6 mammoths that turn back into adventurers if they even manage to get rid of them. The encounter is trivialised by the spell slot. It gets even worse at 8th level where you then have 2 chances to do it a day and can have them turn you into CR 8 tyrannosaurus'. Thankfully there's no higher CR beasts than that.

I'd love you to order pixies to polymorph you in my campaigns.

Conjured animals and fey retain a mind of their own despite obeying your orders. Think of them as loyal (but erratic and chaotic) soldiers with a weird sense of humor.

Out of curiosity, how does your PC (or the pixies for that matter) know any things CR?

[HoarsHalberd]

I'd love you to order pixies to polymorph you in my campaigns.

Conjured animals and fey retain a mind of their own despite obeying your orders. Think of them as loyal (but erratic and chaotic) soldiers with a weird sense of humor.

Out of curiosity, how does your PC (or the pixies for that matter) know any things CR?

Well then you're houseruling. It specifically says they have to follow your orders. Your houserules cannot be applied to the base texts.

As for CR. If a druid has polymorph they always seem to know how strong the beasts they can turn people into are. Thus they simply say "transform me and my allies into X creature."

Otherwise you'll have to go with the marginally more subjective. "Polymorph me and my allies into the beast capable of doing the most damage to our enemies before the spell's end."

Now if your houserule changes that, it's wonderful and effective, but saying that an option isn't OP because you've houseruled it into not being OP doesn't fly.

[Orbis Orboros]

I'd love you to order pixies to polymorph you in my campaigns.

Conjured animals and fey retain a mind of their own despite obeying your orders. Think of them as loyal (but erratic and chaotic) soldiers with a weird sense of humor.

They still follow orders, though, so who cares if they have a mind of their own. Be explicit. Don 't say "Cast Polymorph on me!" say "Polymorph me into x!"


Out of curiosity, how does your PC (or the pixies for that matter) know any things CR?

Oh, don't give us that. Unless you're trying to say that Polymorph should be... worthless? Random? DM's discretion? I don't even know.

[pwykersotz]

This thread is hilarious. The "solutions' are never going to work that way.

Lets say you have 5 PCs against 5 bad guys. One PC conjures 8 pixies, who manage to polymorph 4 of the bad guys.

1) Lets assume you are correct, and the single bad guy can 'get around' the cover, and just happens to also have Sharpshooter. And does manage to hit. And lets even assume he managed to guess right and ended *a* polymorph.

2) You *still* have 4 PCs ready to take out those 2 bad guys.

3) Next round you have 5 pixies trying to polymorph 2 bad guys.


While we can create various contrived scenarios where it is not an 'auto-win'.... we cannot create a scenario where it isn't overpowered.

Your math is pretty suspect here. Not exactly worth laughing in conceit over. You're level 7 by the time you can cast this. Your enemies likely have well over a 50% chance to save, or there are a lot more than 5. Heck, even CR 1/8 Bandits have a 50% chance. 2 pixies a piece isn't going to cut it. I believe the main argument is that if they team up on a single foe, even the most powerful enemy is likely to botch at least one roll.

[Xetheral]

There's also the point that if you're up against non-intelligent or unknowledgeable foes, they may not know to attack the pixies to try to break concentration. Heck, they may not even know that Polymorph isn't permanent. Against a group of 20-30 guardsmen, for example, turning just one of them into an animal in the opening round might well be enough to cow the others into surrender or flight.

[Nifft]

There's also the point that if you're up against non-intelligent or unknowledgeable foes, they may not know to attack the pixies to try to break concentration. Heck, they may not even know that Polymorph isn't permanent. Against a group of 20-30 guardsmen, for example, turning just one of them into an animal in the opening round might well be enough to cow the others into surrender or flight. I see what you did there, and I like it.

- - -

Yeah I don't expect a pixie or eight will be much of a challenge alone, and therefore I don't expect them to ever fight alone.

They'll either be conjured by spell, which means they'll be supplementing a party which includes a spellcaster, or they'll be fighting alongside a forest-dwelling monster of some kind.

[Spectre9000]

Pixies are innately opposed to violence. Why are you worried about fighting them? In their lore, they are creatures that "abhor weapons and would sooner flee than get into a physical altercation with any enemy." Who cares if they're OP, and who cares if 3 PC attack 3 Pixie? They would just run away and hide, which they excel at. If you aren't using Pixies in accordance to their inherent features, that's your problem.

[Nifft]

Pixies are innately opposed to violence. Why are you worried about fighting them?

Because enemy spellcasters exist.

[Spectre9000]

Because enemy spellcasters exist.

That's just it. Pixies are never enemy Spellcasters. Pixie do not fight anything. They're are diametrically opposed to fighting. They'll play tricks and what not, but they do not fight.

[Nifft]

That's just it. Pixies are never enemy Spellcasters. Pixie do not fight anything. They're are diametrically opposed to fighting. They'll play tricks and what not, but they do not fight.

I mean that an enemy spellcaster can Conjure Woodland Beings to whip up some Pixies and make them fight against my party.

But not alone.

With the rest of his team as well, who do things like make strong melee attacks (which Pixies do not do) and provide cover for Pixies with spells and such.

I thought everyone understood that Pixies in the wild aren't nearly as much of a problem as the 8-pack that comes from a 4th level slot.

[mephnick]

I put 2 pixies in as additional low CR "fodder" in a barely "medium" encounter (the story was about corrupted fey) against a party of four PCs and their spells nearly wiped the party. I'm not sure of any other CR 1/4 that could have that effect.

Now it's fair to say they were never meant to be enemies, but I'm not sure that justifies the CR.

[bardo]

This thread is hilarious. The "solutions' are never going to work that way.

Lets say you have 5 PCs against 5 bad guys. One PC conjures 8 pixies, who manage to polymorph 4 of the bad guys.

...

Now wait just a minute.

1. Conjured creatures don't get to act as soon as they appear. They roll initiative and act when their number comes up. If a bad guy gets a turn before the pixies there might not be any pixies left by the time their turn comes up (hit the caster to break concentration or AoE).

2. Pixie spells have a save DC 12. Their Polymorph and Phantasmal Force don't land automatically, at best it's 55/45 against a target that has no WIS save proficiency, and no WIS bonus. Against 5 bad guys it's no better than a wizard casting Hypnotic Pattern.

Conjuring 8 pixies in battle is powerful, as a 4th level spell should be, but it's no auto-win button.

The real abuse is turning 4 party members into flying gorillas before the battle. A big chunk of the blame belongs to the Polymorph spell itself. It shouldn't allow a PC turn into a beast of the same CR as the PC's level. That's at least 2 CR too high, and probably 4 CR too high.

Bardo

[Shining Wrath]

Sprites, also at CR 1/4, have the same invisibility but instead of spells have tiny weapons: Longsword +2 to hit, 1hp damage. Shortbow +6 to hit, 1hp damage and DC10 poison. If Pixies are not OP for CR 1/4, then Sprites must be UP for CR 1/4.

Unlike most other conjured beings, pixies do not form a physical barrier that protects the caster. One way to deal with them is to hit the caster hard, break concentration, then all the the pixies disappear and all their active concentration spells fizzle. As mentioned before, fireball and other save-for-half-damage AoE spells are Death to Pixies.

Bardo

Actually, Pixies have Superior Invisibility which persists for concentration. Sprites have normal invisibility where attacking makes them visible.


This thread is hilarious. The "solutions' are never going to work that way.

Lets say you have 5 PCs against 5 bad guys. One PC conjures 8 pixies, who manage to polymorph 4 of the bad guys.

1) Lets assume you are correct, and the single bad guy can 'get around' the cover, and just happens to also have Sharpshooter. And does manage to hit. And lets even assume he managed to guess right and ended *a* polymorph.

2) You *still* have 4 PCs ready to take out those 2 bad guys.

3) Next round you have 5 pixies trying to polymorph 2 bad guys.


While we can create various contrived scenarios where it is not an 'auto-win'.... we cannot create a scenario where it isn't overpowered.

Pixies get all their spells except Druidcraft as 1/day. So they'd have to use Confuse, then drop down to 3rd level spells.

If the hypothetical surviving party member has an AoE attack (Ranger with Hail of Thorns, full caster with any number of spells], he can quite possibly take out all the pixies with one attack.


Pixies are innately opposed to violence. Why are you worried about fighting them? In their lore, they are creatures that "abhor weapons and would sooner flee than get into a physical altercation with any enemy." Who cares if they're OP, and who cares if 3 PC attack 3 Pixie? They would just run away and hide, which they excel at. If you aren't using Pixies in accordance to their inherent features, that's your problem.

Two words: Unseelie Fey.

Longer: in my world, most sentient creatures have a variety of alignments. Not all orcs are CE, not all centaurs are NG, and so on. Exceptions are most types of undead, fiends, and celestials. So having a bunch of CE Sprites and Pixies attack because they hate humans is not impossible, and having CN fey that might kill you because you are interfering with their plans to expand the size of the forest is also on the table.

A creature's CR should not be tied to its alignment or nature, because a DM can tweak things.

[pwykersotz]

A creature's CR should not be tied to its alignment or nature, because a DM can tweak things.

Very much agree with this, even if I think the fluff based argument is worth knowing.

[Spectre9000]

I mean that an enemy spellcaster can Conjure Woodland Beings to whip up some Pixies and make them fight against my party.

But not alone.

With the rest of his team as well, who do things like make strong melee attacks (which Pixies do not do) and provide cover for Pixies with spells and such.

I thought everyone understood that Pixies in the wild aren't nearly as much of a problem as the 8-pack that comes from a 4th level slot.

So, you're referring to Conjure Woodland Beings. This spell is woefully incomplete, and poorly designed. It doesn't even state how you decide upon the creatures summoned, which means by default it falls to the DM to make a ruling. If your DM is throwing broken things at you, then gl, but DMs should reign in on the broken mechanics when possible. Since, by default, this spell requires a DM's ruling, DMs are free to do as they wish with it, and determine what they will allow and not allow. They could even rule that Pixie's aren't able to be conjured due to them being magically resistant to spells.

Furthermore, another incomplete part of this spell is its lack of stating you can't issue any command that goes against the creatures alignment, as other Conjure spells do. Nonviolence is a part of their alignment, and so you wouldn't be able to issue commands that would contribute to a fight. Now, they have spells, yes, and if you were allowed to summon some Pixies, what would they use them on if not to help a fight? Well, for one, they might use them for the very purpose they have them: to flee. They can cast polymorph or invisibility in order to help you flee from pursuers, and use spells to lead those pursuers astray. That would be completely within their alignment and views on nonviolence, as well as their trickster nature.

This spell simply requires the DM to make up rules for it, as it's not clear enough about its workings RAW.

[SharkForce]

I'm not entirely certain when "cast entangle and then hide" became an ultra-niche strategy. or doing the same with confusion. I mean, they have natural invisibility, and are decent at stealth. casting a spell and then hiding is pretty much what they do when they *aren't* being controlled I would expect.

their spells allow them to inflict serious disadvantages on a group of creatures that puts said creatures in a very bad situation in the event they get attacked by anything else.

yes, they can be destroyed if someone gets the drop on them (though why you'd assume they're being summoned in the middle of battle, grouped together, in a place where the enemy can see them, visible, is beyond me). and if you don't get the drop on them, they will ruin your day.

and as has been noted, CR should not be based on alignment or whether they like fighting. CR is not a measurement of how likely they are to fight you. it is a measurement of how difficult they are to fight if they fight you. the precise why is not (or at least should not be) factored into CR. maybe they're fighting because the druid or bard that summoned them is ordering them to. maybe they're fighting because they were corrupted by some sort of evil. maybe they're fighting because they just watched you commit unspeakable atrocities and while they won't kill you themselves, they are unusually willing to put you into a situation where their fey friends have a major advantage in fighting you. or maybe, as has been noted, fey don't necessarily follow the same rules in your game world.

pixies in their current form should not be CR 1/4. the fact that they are causes huge problems. (also polymorph being super powerful until you start getting to CRs where there are no beasts in the MM to turn into doesn't help, but that is just one of several problems)

[Mellack]

Low HP creatures like Pixies and Sprites should never be bunched up where one AOE can hit them all if at all avoidable. If they are on their own, they should be moving in from all directions invisibly. If conjured, they can be summoned anywhere within 60' of the caster, so can be spread out over a 120' diameter hemisphere.

[bardo]

I'd love you to order pixies to polymorph you in my campaigns.

Conjured animals and fey retain a mind of their own despite obeying your orders. Think of them as loyal (but erratic and chaotic) soldiers with a weird sense of humor.

Out of curiosity, how does your PC (or the pixies for that matter) know any things CR?

Sorry, but what you're doing there is fighting player cheese with DM cheese.

A character might not know what's a CR, HP, AC, or DC, but characters makes decisions based on those numbers throughout their careers. It's not meta-gaming, it's just normal gaming. Do you ask the druid to explain how he knows the CR of a beast every time he shape-shifts? Didn't think so.

Conjured creatures are friendly and they obey. There are written exceptions. Conjured elementals will turn on you if you lose concentration. Conjured celestials will refuse tasks that are against their alignments. But there's no written exception for conjure animals or conjure woodland beings. Therefore conjured bears aren't going to steal your picnic basket, and conjured pixies aren't going to play tricks on you.

The DM has all the resources in the world, why resort to cheese?

Bardo

[Shining Wrath]

One possible way to nerf CWB is to note that Pixies per the MM only speak Sylvan - so while the spell does say they obey the caster's commands, a caster who does not speak Sylvan may not be able to communicate those commands quickly. Pantomime might work for "We all want Fly" cast on us, but it's going to be a bit harder for "120' NW is a band of trolls, please polymorph them into mice".

[Malifice]

Well then you're houseruling.

No, I'm not.

It says theyre friendly to you. It doesnt say that they stay friendly no matter what you order them to do, or no matter how you treat them. They could very well turn hostile.

It also says they have to follow your orders. Guess what - A soldier has to follow orders. Does that make the soldier mindless, or unable to interpet those orders? Can you point me out to the section in the spell where it details the fact that summoned Pixies lack a mind of their own? Or that they cant choose how to interpet your orders?

Bear in mind a Pixies interpretation of 'Change me into something dangerous' could be very different from what the caster expects will happen.

Also: 'Hey Pixie, turn me into a Troll'. Pixie; 'Whats a Troll - I've never seen one?'


It specifically says they have to follow your orders. Your houserules cannot be applied to the base texts.

It also says that when not ordered they 'defend themselves but otherwise take no action'.

What does this mean? How much leeway does the Pixie have to determine how to 'defend itself'? Can it move out of the way of attacks? Turn invisible? Polymorph or confuse the creature in an effort to escape the danger? Take the dodge action?

Who determines this? The Pixie (well.. DM playing a Pixie) does.


As for CR. If a druid has polymorph they always seem to know how strong the beasts they can turn people into are. Thus they simply say "transform me and my allies into X creature."

Not at my table. Thats metagaming 101. The players wouldnt stand for it (or try something that breaks the 4th wall) themselves.


Otherwise you'll have to go with the marginally more subjective. "Polymorph me and my allies into the beast capable of doing the most damage to our enemies before the spell's end."

How the heck is the Pixie supposed to know what beast 'does the most damage'? What beasts does the Pixie even know about? To a Pixie with 1 hit point, the difference between a Frost giants club and a halflings sling is academic, even if there was some kind of way to measure or gauge the relative damage.


Now if your houserule changes that, it's wonderful and effective, but saying that an option isn't OP because you've houseruled it into not being OP doesn't fly.

Roleplaying the Pixie, ineterpreting the parameters of the spell as written, and enforcing a ban on metagame knowledge isnt a 'house rule'. Thats The role of the DM.


They still follow orders, though, so who cares if they have a mind of their own. Be explicit. Don 't say "Cast Polymorph on me!" say "Polymorph me into x!"

And hope the Pixie knows what 'X' is, or isnt confused and thinks Y is really 'X'. Pixies can make mistakes you know. Theyre also opposed to violence and hostility, and have mischevious senses of humor.


Oh, don't give us that. Unless you're trying to say that Polymorph should be... worthless? Random? DM's discretion? I don't even know.

DM's discretion. Like everything. Including getting the Pixies in the first place.

The DM listens to the request, thinks about the request from the Pixies point of view, the Pixies knowledge, their opinion of the caster, puts his DM hat back on and briefly considers the in game consequences of the request and the resource expenditure used by the PC, and makes a ruling, describing the effect that happens.

As a hint, in my games the result when asking Pixies to polymorph you into creature 'X' wont always be 100 percent predictable.

But thats half the fun.

[Malifice]

Sorry, but what you're doing there is fighting player cheese with DM cheese.

A character might not know what's a CR, HP, AC, or DC, but characters makes decisions based on those numbers throughout their careers. It's not meta-gaming, it's just normal gaming. Do you ask the druid to explain how he knows the CR of a beast every time he shape-shifts? Didn't think so.

No, they dont.

Ever been punched in the face? Seen a few brawls, watched the UFC, done Karate etc?

What CR is Mike Tyson? How many Hit points does he have? Whats his AC?

All you know is that Mike is a bad mofo, and he would most likely kick the stuffing out of you in a brawl. Not 'I bet Mike does like 2-24 damage at +8 with multiattack, crits on a 18-20, and is a CR 12 Thug'


Conjured creatures are friendly and they obey.

So are soldiers in a platoon, and cultists to their leader.

Nothing in the spell description states they are mindless, or conversely omniescient. They're Pixies; doing what Pixies do. Theyre friendly to you and obey your orders.

Nothing states they stay friendly, or that they lack the ability to interpret your orders according to Pixie logic.


The DM has all the resources in the world, why resort to cheese?

It's not cheese. Youre viewing it way more antagonistic that I'm suggesting. The Summoner will generally get what he wants (or close to it). Occasionally he may get something a way off what he wants. Its really a question of what the Pixies know, how they interpret his orders, and (DM metagame considerations re challenging the party or moderating the action).

[Xetheral]

No, they dont.

Ever been punched in the face? Seen a few brawls, watched the UFC, done Karate etc?

What CR is Mike Tyson? How many Hit points does he have? Whats his AC?

When a game mechanic explicitly depends on the player making a choice regarding the CR of the creatures to be summoned, I consider it unreasonable to require the player to make the choice blindly due to their character's ignorance of the concept of CR. The spell itself requires OOC decision-making, and yes, that partially breaks the fourth wall, but that's the way the spell is written. Other features are analogous... the Battlemaster's Know Your Enemy feature requires the player to pick a game statistic to learn relative information about.


Nothing in the spell description states they are mindless, or conversely omniescient. They're Pixies; doing what Pixies do. Theyre friendly to you and obey your orders.

Nothing states they stay friendly, or that they lack the ability to interpret your orders according to Pixie logic.

You can use the same logic to justify anything you want that isn't in the spell description. That makes your logic suspect. I find it hard to imagine that a player, having read the spell, would ever not feel cheated if you had the Pixies turn hostile or if you as the DM deliberately chose to have them misinterpret orders.

When you add unwritten elements to a player ability to that players' detriment, that's practically the definition of being antagonistic. Now, if the player wants to use an ability in a manner very much outside the intended scope, then yes, you as DM need to interpret how the creatures would naturally be inclined to react to the request. (Asking the fey creatures to commit atrocities against helpless victims, for example.) But when the spell is used in line with its intent, it is antagonistic to interpret an ability such that it is less useful than the written text implies.

[HoarsHalberd]

No, I'm not.

It says theyre friendly to you. It doesnt say that they stay friendly no matter what you order them to do, or no matter how you treat them. They could very well turn hostile.

It also says they have to follow your orders. Guess what - A soldier has to follow orders. Does that make the soldier mindless, or unable to interpet those orders? Can you point me out to the section in the spell where it details the fact that summoned Pixies lack a mind of their own? Or that they cant choose how to interpet your orders?

Bear in mind a Pixies interpretation of 'Change me into something dangerous' could be very different from what the caster expects will happen.

Also: 'Hey Pixie, turn me into a Troll'. Pixie; 'Whats a Troll - I've never seen one?'



It also says that when not ordered they 'defend themselves but otherwise take no action'.

What does this mean? How much leeway does the Pixie have to determine how to 'defend itself'? Can it move out of the way of attacks? Turn invisible? Polymorph or confuse the creature in an effort to escape the danger? Take the dodge action?

Who determines this? The Pixie (well.. DM playing a Pixie) does.



Not at my table. Thats metagaming 101. The players wouldnt stand for it (or try something that breaks the 4th wall) themselves.



How the heck is the Pixie supposed to know what beast 'does the most damage'? What beasts does the Pixie even know about? To a Pixie with 1 hit point, the difference between a Frost giants club and a halflings sling is academic, even if there was some kind of way to measure or gauge the relative damage.



Roleplaying the Pixie, ineterpreting the parameters of the spell as written, and enforcing a ban on metagame knowledge isnt a 'house rule'. Thats The role of the DM.



If you can't have in game knowledge of what a spell can do then you have nerfed the druid into oblivion. He has no means to learn what beasts he can transform into, or what his polymorph spell does. Also he has NO idea how to even use a conjure spell because it says CR and hence he has no knowledge of what things are which.

You are also massively nerfing the conjure spells and this is for pure arbitrary reason. It says they follow your commands. If they don't follow your commands (in letter if not spirit) then you are houseruling the spell. As for turning hostile, they have no recourse to. The spell specifically says they obey your orders. It does not say "if they choose" or "until they turn hostile." So either they can't turn hostile. Or they will still obey your orders regardless of their hostility. By the book.

And "Does the most damage" should be patently obvious. They live in a forest. They know a bite from a bear will more swiftly end a deer than a bite from a wolf. They know that said bear will also take more of a pounding than a wolf. They are also fey, and will have a good chance of meeting a lot of fey that take the form of all manner of creatures. And so can logically conclude that an Allosaurus would be a good hunter. A mammoth is a more powerful fighter than an elephant. They have an average intellect and 14 Wis. They should be capable of rational thinking. At this point, if you're preventing both OOC knowledge and logical IC knowledge you are just cheesing the system. By damage I didn't mean metagamey knowledge of D8's and +STR. I meant actually having the logical thought patterns to go: "Well a mammoth is bigger, tougher and stronger than anything else I think I can turn them into, so I'll do that."

And you aren't interpreting the parameters of the spell. You are violating clear RAW for your own choice with no RAI to back you up.

Now they have prevented this tactic by changing the rules on it. I'm glad the tactic is wrong.

[Malifice]

When a game mechanic explicitly depends on the player making a choice regarding the CR of the creatures to be summoned, I consider it unreasonable to require the player to make the choice blindly due to their character's ignorance of the concept of CR.

The limit is a mechanical limit imposed on the player. The character has not idea what a pixies CR is.

I was using the distinction with regards to the polymorph spell. I wouldnt expect a player to flip through the MM looking for the most appropriate CR approved monster to polymorph into.

It should go (players have recently nearly been TPK'd by a Troll) - 'Hey Pixie - Change me into something scary - like that troll we just encountered a few minutes ago; the one the Barbarian hacked its arm off!'

Shouldnt be any dramas there. The above assumes the Pixies were present for the troll encounter so they know what it was, and are most likely to understand the request and interpet it correctly. They may use a bit of Pixie humor though (turning you into THAT troll - complete with missing arm!)


The spell itself requires OOC decision-making, and yes, that partially breaks the fourth wall, but that's the way the spell is written.

Thats because the spell uses rules text. Like every rule. Its a mechanical explanation of a pretty complex situation rendered down into a paragraph.


Other features are analogous... the Battlemaster's Know Your Enemy feature requires the player to pick a game statistic to learn relative information about.

Yeah. Its like when a caster Identifies a +1 sword. The caster (in game) tells the player that 'It's an elvish weapon, enchanted to be forever sharp, and never tarnish. This is an example of the Fey alchemists of Elfinwoode's early work; a prototype of their later more powerful designs'

The DM tells the player it's a +1 sword.

The rules cant cover all sitiations. They simply cant. A single piece of legislation dealing with a specific bit of society (rubbish removal, or road rules) cant deal with all possible permutations. That's why we have Judges to interpret the law, and make decisions where there is some ambiguity, unforseen consequence, or simply just to make sure the law works as intended.

That spell description does not cover all possible situations in a single paragraph. Look at what the Pixie does when not ordered to do something - it 'defends itself'. What exactly does that mean? The spell tells you the Pixies are friendly. Why assume they remain friendly no matter what abuse you subject them too, or no matter what vile tasks you order them to perform? The spell tells you they obey you - how much latitude do they have in interpeting your orders? Devils (another frequently summoned being) are famous for 'twisting' or perverting orders to have the opposite or a detrimental effect to what the summoner intended (within the limits of the task they were asked to perform).

For example, I could tell ten totally different, yet all blindly and fiercly loyal soldiers to neutralize a machine gun pit 100m away while under enemy fire. I bet you I would get 10 different methods (some might charge it, some might try and snipe it from a distance, some might call in artillery on it, some might delegate to others, some might even do their best freeze in fear). Its a question of the individual soldiers personality, initiative, courage, experience, decision making and how it interprets my orders that counts.

Theyre still objectively following that order; they just interpet the order subjectively. Nothing in the Summon spell overrides the Pixies own intelligence, fears, prejudices and 'pixie logic'. They'll do their best based on thier understanding of the order.


You can use the same logic to justify anything you want that isn't in the spell description. That makes your logic suspect. I find it hard to imagine that a player, having read the spell, would ever not feel cheated if you had the Pixies turn hostile or if you as the DM deliberately chose to have them misinterpret orders.

Yeah, and if I did it all the time, or did it just to be a ****, you would be rightly cheated. But that's not what I'm suggesting at all. I'm suggesting that the spell (as written) doesnt grant you 'x castings of x spells'. It grants you a bunch of mischevious, non violent, timid, goodly, friendly and obedient Pixies (with a fickle sense of humor), each of which can cast those spells. They may very well have their own view on what 'Turn me into a troll means' (or have no idea at all what it means, seeing as they are totally non violent and generally only use these spells for pranks... and not for ripping off heads).

I'd moderate (i.e DM) the spell to generally give the caster what he wants, maybe with a twist to keep it intresting, and hopefully adding a splash of humor (as befits a Pixie) while hopefully encouraging roleplaying, and getting a good story to tell afterwards.

Hopefully the party is wary of the tactic (Boris the Fighter: No way I'm letting those mischevious little imps turn me into an Tiger - last time I was turned into a Tiger cub when you ordered them to turn me into a Tiger, the monsters were turned into mice (the Pixies idea of 'defending themselves' and the rest of the Pixies sat around laughing their asses off inivisibly while I chased a bunch of orc/mice around the forest for an hour - it nearly got us all killed!).

Not something I would do all the time mind you. Just enough to keep the players on their toes, and remind them that they're dealing with magic (and mischevious fey creatures who are - by my reading of 'Pixie Logic' - almost certain to look to interpret any orders as broadly as they can to ensure the least violence and the most amusement results within the confines of the orders given).


When you add unwritten elements to a player ability to that players' detriment,

It can (when done correctly) add a sense of wonder, adventure, unpredictability, and fun into the game.

Each to their own I guess.

[Thisguy_]

The way I've always read it is that a spellcaster, upon having been taught a spell with CR involvement, was also taught what kind of creatures that spell could produce/effect, etc, in-character.

For example, upon a wizard learning sleep from a spellbook he found, he should see a note with it to the tune of "It seems to hit the little stuff first. It's finicky, and very unreliable for tougher creatures like owlbears, but works well on untrained humans, goblins, and small monsters. I'd wager it would be fine to hit a single other wizard or perhaps a soldier with it as well, but remember it affects an area, and without significant research put forth to refine it, there's nothing I could do about that..."

More specifically on-topic, a Druid first being taught Conjure Woodland Beings would learn it from another Druid who knew about some of the fey he could summon with it.

"You know what's really fun, is you can summon a whole cloud of pixies. Loads of 'em. They're pacifists, though, so they don't like to be told to do violent things. But they're bloody fun to mess with your roommate, they can blip outta sight with a spell and screw with people."

Depending on who it was and how they used Conjure Woodland Beings, and depending on what the character would have wondered about it in the first week or so of playing with it, I'd personally say that knowing you can summon pixies with it isn't metagaming, and I'd even go so far as to say that knowing some of their magical abilities is on the table.

As a player of a Druid who, before coming here, was about to be contacted by an Archfey, I am now bagging the "8 pixies with one spell" "trick" for tenth level. Once I've picked up a couple of feylock levels, I'd have (IC) no problem summoning the aid of a few fey once in a while for the sake of following my patron's whims, and pixies have their uses.

Hell. Bet if I can make them laugh with a request of mine they'd do it in a heartbeat.

"You should turn me into a pink bat."

"PFFF DEAL!"

Or something more useful-sounding I don't know.

A better way to put it is as such: you either learn it from someone who knows how to use it (or doesn't, which would be neat AND impose the limitations of having to play with it, probably in character, to learn what it can do), or you teach it to yourself, and that implies the same experimentation offscreen.

Unless, as DM, you think it would be funny or fun to tell him "You now know a spell that can conjure fey. As to how many and what kinds, you get to play with it IC." Then he gets to say "I wanna summon fairies to fight!" and receive pixies.

In fact, as I was writing this up, I was talking to my own DM about it, and he got me to reread the spell. In fact it says that you summon creatures of a specific CR or lower, but you do not get to be specific. Seems the spell as intended lets you say either "I want one big one" or "I want a ****load of little fey." You don't seem to be able to say "I want to summon pixies" at all, but that's just his (and now, my) reading (and it makes sense).

[SharkForce]

yeah, not being able to choose what you summon from spells is a bad move.

not as bad as making pixies CR 1/4 so that you can summon 8 of them when they should be CR 1, particularly since in a certain environment it won't go wrong, but it means that the spell loses a heck of a lot of value any time you aren't already on good terms with your DM (ie not as good at conventions, not as good for organized play, not as good if you've just moved and are joining an established group, not as good if you just got introduced to D&D and your group, not as good if you're playing online with people you don't know, etc).

truthfully, apart from conjuring pixies, there mostly isn't a problem with any summoning spell being able to summon exactly what you want. and it's only a problem with pixies because the CR is wrong (2 pixies would be good, but not broken, for a level 4 spell). I mean, I don't know anyone who's desperately trying to prevent you from summoning 8 wolves or panthers, and they're CR 1/4.

but this is all a side point. the main point is that pixies should not be CR 1/4. when they fight (for whatever reason), they are far more dangerous than other CR 1/4 creatures. they should be CR 1. even using the system from the DMG for designing creatures, you come up with roughly that (possibly actually quite a bit higher depending on how you interpret certain things in the system... but I don't think CR 2 or 3 is where they belong, so I suspect the interpretation that leads to CR 1 is the more correct).

[Malifice]

yeah, not being able to choose what you summon from spells is a bad move.

not as bad as making pixies CR 1/4 so that you can summon 8 of them when they should be CR 1, particularly since in a certain environment it won't go wrong, but it means that the spell loses a heck of a lot of value any time you aren't already on good terms with your DM (ie not as good at conventions, not as good for organized play, not as good if you've just moved and are joining an established group, not as good if you just got introduced to D&D and your group, not as good if you're playing online with people you don't know, etc).

truthfully, apart from conjuring pixies, there mostly isn't a problem with any summoning spell being able to summon exactly what you want. and it's only a problem with pixies because the CR is wrong (2 pixies would be good, but not broken, for a level 4 spell). I mean, I don't know anyone who's desperately trying to prevent you from summoning 8 wolves or panthers, and they're CR 1/4.

but this is all a side point. the main point is that pixies should not be CR 1/4. when they fight (for whatever reason), they are far more dangerous than other CR 1/4 creatures. they should be CR 1. even using the system from the DMG for designing creatures, you come up with roughly that (possibly actually quite a bit higher depending on how you interpret certain things in the system... but I don't think CR 2 or 3 is where they belong, so I suspect the interpretation that leads to CR 1 is the more correct).

But Pixies dont fight. Read the description. Theyre non violent pranksters. Theyre impicitly designed to mess with the party for a bit in a non malicious way. Put them to sleep and draw rude stuff on their faces. Turn them into rats and watch the ensuing hillarity. They certainly wouldnt endanger the lives of anyone.

If you play a Pixie as a Pixie, there arent any dramas.

[coredump]

Your math is pretty suspect here. Not exactly worth laughing in conceit over. You're level 7 by the time you can cast this. Your enemies likely have well over a 50% chance to save, or there are a lot more than 5. Heck, even CR 1/8 Bandits have a 50% chance. 2 pixies a piece isn't going to cut it. I believe the main argument is that if they team up on a single foe, even the most powerful enemy is likely to botch at least one roll.Its only 'suspect' if you completely miss the point of the comparison.
So lets say they only get 3 of the 5.... so what? They can still cast and move 30' to be behind complete cover most times. And you now still have 5 PCs gunning after only 40% of the bad guys that are still standing.
Even if the 2 bad guys ignore the PCs and go after the Pixies, you are likely looking at losing almost 2 complete turns to deal with all 8 pixies.... not bad for a single 4th level spell.


Now wait just a minute.

1. Conjured creatures don't get to act as soon as they appear. They roll initiative and act when their number comes up. If a bad guy gets a turn before the pixies there might not be any pixies left by the time their turn comes up (hit the caster to break concentration or AoE). True, but they *might* go right away. And the caster can make them show up anywhere in a 450,000 cubic foot hemisphere.... AoE should not be an issue. Heck, in many situations you would be able to place them completely behind cover so the bad guys don't even know they are there.
As for Concentration... that is a problem for lots of spells....spells which have no where near the potential that CWB does.


2. Pixie spells have a save DC 12. Their Polymorph and Phantasmal Force don't land automatically, at best it's 55/45 against a target that has no WIS save proficiency, and no WIS bonus. Against 5 bad guys it's no better than a wizard casting Hypnotic Pattern. So....??? Lets give them a +4 Wis save, (pretty generous), now 3 of the bad guys go down.... see above...
And unlike HP, they can't just be woken up, nor picked up and put in a bag, or thrown off a cliff, or easily put to sleep, or any other number of ways to deal with a small weak creature.


Conjuring 8 pixies in battle is powerful, as a 4th level spell should be, but it's no auto-win button. No one said it was always an auto-win button.... but it will be sometimes, and will always be very powerful, more powerful than other 4th level spells, or even most 5th or 6th level spells.



Pixies get all their spells except Druidcraft as 1/day. So they'd have to use Confuse, then drop down to 3rd level spells. Valid point. But thats really all you need.... if you can occupy the bad guys for 2ish turns... the fight should be over.


If the hypothetical surviving party member has an AoE attack (Ranger with Hail of Thorns, full caster with any number of spells], he can quite possibly take out all the pixies with one attack.Why in the world would the pixies be anywhere near each other....??? Hail of thorns effects a 10-15' diameter.... No way they should be that close, ever.

[tieren]

That spell description does not cover all possible situations in a single paragraph. Look at what the Pixie does when not ordered to do something - it 'defends itself'. What exactly does that mean? The spell tells you the Pixies are friendly. Why assume they remain friendly no matter what abuse you subject them too, or no matter what vile tasks you order them to perform? The spell tells you they obey you - how much latitude do they have in interpeting your orders? Devils (another frequently summoned being) are famous for 'twisting' or perverting orders to have the opposite or a detrimental effect to what the summoner intended (within the limits of the task they were asked to perform).


No one better tell my dryads anything about this.

NO ONE

[Malifice]

No one better tell my dryads anything about this.

NO ONE

That you Jon Irenicus ;)

[bardo]

The spell tells you the Pixies are friendly. Why assume they remain friendly no matter what abuse you subject them too, or no matter what vile tasks you order them to perform? The spell tells you they obey you - how much latitude do they have in interpeting your orders? Devils (another frequently summoned being) are famous for 'twisting' or perverting orders to have the opposite or a detrimental effect to what the summoner intended (within the limits of the task they were asked to perform).

The pixies stay friendly RAW. Conjure Elemental details the conditions under which the conjured Elemental will stop being friendly. There is no such note in Conjure Nature Beings. Therefore the pixies will remain friendly under all but the most extremely ridiculous conditions.

By the same token, the pixies will obey any command RAW. Conjure Celestial details the conditions under which a Celestial will refuse to obey a command. There's nothing of that sort in Conjure Nature Beings. Therefore the pixies will obey all but the most extremely ridiculous commands.

These are the terms of the conjure spells, as written. The conjured creature is not free to act as a creature of its type would normally act. It is bound by magic to be friendly and to obey the caster's commands. Altering the terms of a spell because a player found a way to resolve an encounter with that spell, well, that's precisely what I call cheese.

As for Mike Tyson, Xetheral answered that one very well. I'll only add that we don't live in a universe that is governed by CR, HP, AC, and DC. We live in a universe that's governed by inertia. Trying to describe Mike's punch in terms of HP is non-sense. In terms of lbs-force, however, it works out just fine. I wouldn't be surprised if they've already done it on the Discovery Channel.

Bardo

[SharkForce]

But Pixies dont fight. Read the description. Theyre non violent pranksters. Theyre impicitly designed to mess with the party for a bit in a non malicious way. Put them to sleep and draw rude stuff on their faces. Turn them into rats and watch the ensuing hillarity. They certainly wouldnt endanger the lives of anyone.

If you play a Pixie as a Pixie, there arent any dramas.

and wolves don't generally attack dragons, but they will do that if you order them to. your house rules that obeying you doesn't mean obeying you is all very well and good, but if something obeys you I'm not likely to read that as "might obey you" or "obeys you unless they don't want to".

[Xetheral]

The limit is a mechanical limit imposed on the player. The character has not idea what a pixies CR is....

And because of that you won't let the player exercise their game-granted mechanical options and pick a form of the right CR? They have to guess blindly? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. And if they guess wrong, what happens? Do you have the spell fizzle?


They may use a bit of Pixie humor though (turning you into THAT troll - complete with missing arm!)

As a side note, what do you do when the PCs later try to use polymorph to turn into a specific creature rather than a general one? Do you let them, or do you say "no, only pixies can do that when they're messing with you?"


That spell description does not cover all possible situations in a single paragraph. Look at what the Pixie does when not ordered to do something - it 'defends itself'. What exactly does that mean?

It means that the Pixies use invisibility, cover, and the dodge action. Maybe they'd use disengage if the pixie felt doing so wasn't contrary to the party's interests.


The spell tells you the Pixies are friendly. Why assume they remain friendly no matter what abuse you subject them too, or no matter what vile tasks you order them to perform?

I don't. I specifically mentioned that if the PCs try to use the spell far outside its intended purpose, then all bets are off.


The spell tells you they obey you - how much latitude do they have in interpeting your orders?

In a normal usage of the spell? None. If you as DM don't understand what the player's instructions meant, and the character has at least an average intelligence, then you ask your player for clarification, both because the character might have expressed it better than the player AND because it's probably more apparent what the player meant to the Pixies (who have the benefit of in-game context) than it is to you.


For example, I could tell ten totally different, yet all blindly and fiercly loyal soldiers to neutralize a machine gun pit 100m away while under enemy fire. I bet you I would get 10 different methods (some might charge it, some might try and snipe it from a distance, some might call in artillery on it, some might delegate to others, some might even do their best freeze in fear). Its a question of the individual soldiers personality, initiative, courage, experience, decision making and how it interprets my orders that counts.

True. However, if you had a spell that the books says summons ten soldiers who are friendly to you and follow your orders, you'd expect them to pick a competent strategy and effectively engage the machine gun to the best of their ability. If any of them freeze in fear (assuming the machine gun doesn't have a fear aura or something), you've got a very legitimate beef with your DM.


I'd moderate (i.e DM) the spell to generally give the caster what he wants, maybe with a twist to keep it intresting, and hopefully adding a splash of humor (as befits a Pixie) while hopefully encouraging roleplaying, and getting a good story to tell afterwards.

Hopefully the party is wary of the tactic (Boris the Fighter: No way I'm letting those mischevious little imps turn me into an Tiger - last time I was turned into a Tiger cub when you ordered them to turn me into a Tiger, the monsters were turned into mice (the Pixies idea of 'defending themselves' and the rest of the Pixies sat around laughing their asses off inivisibly while I chased a bunch of orc/mice around the forest for an hour - it nearly got us all killed!).

Why would you ever want the party to be "wary" of using one of their abilities? If the players are too afraid to use an ability out of fear that the DM is going to mess with them, then you've at the very least lost their trust. (If they liked being messed with, they wouldn't be "wary", they'd be "enthusiastic".)

Also, there is a giant difference between meeting pixies in the forest and striking a deal with them for their assistance, and using a character ability that explicitly summons obedient allies. In the former case, Boris being turned into a tiger cub might be comical, and the characters have the added recourse of legitimately not keeping up their end of the deal since the Pixies already reneged. In the latter case, the spell has already been expended, and if it doesn't work the way it says in the book (and you haven't houseruled it), you'd better have a very good (preferably surmountable) IC reason (e.g. some form of dimensional lock) for it not to work properly.


It can (when done correctly) add a sense of wonder, adventure, unpredictability, and fun into the game.

Each to their own I guess.

So long as you've got a table where 100% of the players are ok with this (and if you've made them wary they're by definition not ok), fantastic! Otherwise, there are few faster ways to alienate your players than interpreting their abilities to be less useful than they expected.

[Shining Wrath]

But Pixies dont fight. Read the description. Theyre non violent pranksters. Theyre impicitly designed to mess with the party for a bit in a non malicious way. Put them to sleep and draw rude stuff on their faces. Turn them into rats and watch the ensuing hillarity. They certainly wouldnt endanger the lives of anyone.

If you play a Pixie as a Pixie, there arent any dramas.

Specific trumps general. Generally, pixies are pacifists. Specifically, the pixies summoned by CWB obey orders, even if those orders are not pacifistic. There is no language specifying that an evil person can't use CWB; an evil person can order the pixies to do evil, not-pacifist things, and explicitly will be obeyed. Perhaps the pixies you get from CWB are chosen by the fey for their mean nasty un-pixie natures; who knows? We only know that they follow orders, and there's no mention of them twisting those orders, refusing them, misinterpreting them, or otherwise not doing what the PHB clearly says they do: obey.

Now, whether or not these pixies speak only Sylvan, as the MM indicates, is another story.

[Atalas]

Sold!

I've already established that pixies don't like the fey warlock (for reasons). I'll whip up a batch to pester the party next time they go into the woods. I can already hear the cleric's player's screams of frustration....



I really need to stop coming here before game night.

You kidding? Half the fun I have/plan to have with my player's is due to coming to this thread. And it just so happens that my party is in a forest. and in the morning I was already planning on a literal Archfey visiting (Archfey Warlock player moved, so to remove his character I'm just having his patron come to collect his debt. not as much fun as when the Fiendish Warlock's patron will come calling, but fun to be had).

[Bluepaw]

This is surely irrelevant but worth considering nonetheless -- there was a 4e book (Heroes of the Feywild?) that made Pixies a playable race... what are the odds that such a thing could be re-conjured up within the 5e system, and would it be worth the trouble?

[Shining Wrath]

This is surely irrelevant but worth considering nonetheless -- there was a 4e book (Heroes of the Feywild?) that made Pixies a playable race... what are the odds that such a thing could be re-conjured up within the 5e system, and would it be worth the trouble?

Also 3.5, where they were regarded as very much worth a +4 LA for a Rogue type.

Probably coming.

[Spectre9000]

Also 3.5, where they were regarded as very much worth a +4 LA for a Rogue type.

Probably coming.

Interesting that you mention LA. I wonder if 5e will have something similar.

[pwykersotz]

Interesting that you mention LA. I wonder if 5e will have something similar.

I don't doubt that they will eventually provide some way to make monsters into PC's (even if I fear what that might look like), but I hope LA isn't the way they go. They've already introduced the idea of scaling differences between a single PC vs a single NPC based on EXP values for an even fight one-on-one. If they are true to their acknowledgement, they'll know that no static number can account for the difference.

[Nifft]

Interesting that you mention LA. I wonder if 5e will have something similar.

As a data point, 5e Drow don't have any LA.

I kinda hope 5e continues to not have LA, it was quite a trap for new players in 3.x, and I want new players to not feel the pain of system traps.

[Shining Wrath]

As a data point, 5e Drow don't have any LA.

I kinda hope 5e continues to not have LA, it was quite a trap for new players in 3.x, and I want new players to not feel the pain of system traps.

I notice that Drow acquire spells gradually, rather than all at once. That may be the template going forward; rather than LA, you have to wait until certain abilities are not unusual for characters of that level.

[Malifice]

Specific trumps general. Generally, pixies are pacifists. Specifically, the pixies summoned by CWB obey orders, even if those orders are not pacifistic. There is no language specifying that an evil person can't use CWB; an evil person can order the pixies to do evil, not-pacifist things, and explicitly will be obeyed. Perhaps the pixies you get from CWB are chosen by the fey for their mean nasty un-pixie natures; who knows? We only know that they follow orders, and there's no mention of them twisting those orders, refusing them, misinterpreting them, or otherwise not doing what the PHB clearly says they do: obey.

Now, whether or not these pixies speak only Sylvan, as the MM indicates, is another story.

In your games perhaps. Not in mine.

[Shining Wrath]

In your games perhaps. Not in mine.

Well, then, may your games be filled with fun and laughter and happy pacificistic pixies.

[PoeticDwarf]

These are their spells: confusion, dancing lights, detect evil, detect thoughts, dispel magic, entangle, fly, phantasmal force, polymorph, sleep

I have underlined the ones that require the pixie to concentrate; and their invisibility requires them to concentrate. So yes, they get to fire off level 4 spells; and then they are visible, within range, and have 1 HP. A pixie that turns someone into a mouse has to remain visible for so long as that person is a mouse; their friends may take exception.

Against a single monster, a pack of 8 is dangerous. Against a pack of monsters, not so much, especially if there are any archers or spell-slingers.

8 pixies, they can polymorph so they deal much damage...

[Shining Wrath]

8 pixies, they can polymorph so they deal much damage...

Everyone gets a save, DC 11 Wisdom. Depending on their targets they'll only succeed a couple of times, and to maintain the polymorph they must remain visible to the rest of the enemies. With 1 HP.

[tieren]

Everyone gets a save, DC 11 Wisdom. Depending on their targets they'll only succeed a couple of times, and to maintain the polymorph they must remain visible to the rest of the enemies. With 1 HP.

The problem isn't with polymorphing the bad guys, that is fairly balanced with the save and the fact that you would generally turn them into something harmless until the spell ends or they take damage and revert.

The problem is with polymorphing the good guys. Suddenly your group of PCs are a group of flying mammoths crushing everything in their path while the pixies are hiding somewhere giggling at the mayhem. Go ahead, ignore the flying mammoths while you look for the tiny pixies.

[bardo]

The problem is with polymorphing the good guys. Suddenly your group of PCs are a group of flying mammoths crushing everything in their path while the pixies are hiding somewhere giggling at the mayhem. Go ahead, ignore the flying mammoths while you look for the tiny pixies.

Agreed. Though the problem is with Polymorph itself. The pixies just make it four times worse and airborne.

Bardo

[ImSAMazing]

1 pixie isnt op, 8 of them are.

[tieren]

1 pixie isnt op, 8 of them are.

Which is the crux of the CR discussion. If they were a higher CR no one would be summoning 8 of them.

[SharkForce]

Which is the crux of the CR discussion. If they were a higher CR no one would be summoning 8 of them.

i suspect that they would be a much less visible problem, but they'd still be a problem any time where you do end up fighting them.

part of the problem comes from the fact that offensive CR doesn't really take non-damaging spells into account. if i make two monsters, and one of them can cast forcecage at will and has the (playtest) awakened mystic's unenhanced mind thrust, and the other has firebolt at-will and neither has any damage, the former will have the *lower* CR in spite of being able to essentially dominate any encounter with opponents that aren't larger than 20 feet long in at least one dimension.

but anyways, if for some reason your group ends up fighting a pixie (in spite of their dislike for combat), it still goes far worse than it should go for a CR 1/4 enemy. compare a level 1 group that fights a single pixie vs a single wolf or panther. the pixie will most likely start with KOing 2, maybe 3 characters (depending on roll) in the first round. obviously, no permanent harm is inflicted that way, but it's still quite ridiculous. 2 pixies are likely to take out a level 1 party from invisibility before the party is even really aware of their presence.

conversely, yes, if the party somehow manages to get the drop on the pixies, then yes, the party will almost definitely win. not that i expect that to happen terribly often (the pixies have high AC, decent stealth, invisibility, and flight on their side).

[pwykersotz]

i suspect that they would be a much less visible problem, but they'd still be a problem any time where you do end up fighting them.

part of the problem comes from the fact that offensive CR doesn't really take non-damaging spells into account. if i make two monsters, and one of them can cast forcecage at will and has the (playtest) awakened mystic's unenhanced mind thrust, and the other has firebolt at-will and neither has any damage, the former will have the *lower* CR in spite of being able to essentially dominate any encounter with opponents that aren't larger than 20 feet long in at least one dimension.

but anyways, if for some reason your group ends up fighting a pixie (in spite of their dislike for combat), it still goes far worse than it should go for a CR 1/4 enemy. compare a level 1 group that fights a single pixie vs a single wolf or panther. the pixie will most likely start with KOing 2, maybe 3 characters (depending on roll) in the first round. obviously, no permanent harm is inflicted that way, but it's still quite ridiculous. 2 pixies are likely to take out a level 1 party from invisibility before the party is even really aware of their presence.

conversely, yes, if the party somehow manages to get the drop on the pixies, then yes, the party will almost definitely win. not that i expect that to happen terribly often (the pixies have high AC, decent stealth, invisibility, and flight on their side).

Yeah, for better or worse, everything is judged based on how fast it can kill you. Pixies have practically 0 killing power, thus low CR. I like that paradigm, a lot, but it is definitely worth recognizing that it doesn't reflect combos with other monsters, incapacitation without death, or use to the party as allies. The latter is a major problem I have with both summoning and Polymorph which has been discussed to death.