Holy Crap: Does this work as I think it does?!

[Jane_Smith]

I was browsing the pathfinder SRd last night, looking for stuff I could use to make some memorable monsters and enemies, and occasionally I look into the 3rd party stuff for material, and woe and behold I found this little feat;

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/tripod-machine/general-feats---3rd-party---tripod-machine/vitality-reserve

It does not seem like much by itself, obviously. However, it immediately clicked in my head, "Wait, all feats are Extraordinary abilities unless stated otherwise or via errata." Which made me think of this gem;

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/rite-publishing/general-feats---3rd-party---rite-publishing/mystical-healer

And then, now that your self-healing with actual "DICE" of untyped healing;

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fey-foundling

I am not certain if Mystic Healer would make fey foundling work, while Mystic Healer does do best from you having a CASTER LEVEL, the feat does not say what type of healing the dice are. And fey foundling specifically says "magic healing". But with a name like mystic healer, one can assume. But thats just it, I can only "assume", thus why I am here. Can this theoretically work within the rules? Or am I just seeing cheesecake in the clouds for a potential 3+1d4 to 9+4d6 self-heal usable like 1-20+ times per day as swift actions for any class? > _ >



Ideal Build

Level 8 Human Unchained Barbarian with Armored Hulk Archtype (Removing fast movement, uncanny dodge/s, and "Danger Sense" instead of Trap Sense for its abilities), using Spiked Fullplate armor and a Greatsword with a buckler (using buckler only to make Martial Power give more temp hp). Fey Foundling, Martial Training I, Martial Power, Vitality Reserve, Mystic Healer, and at level 9 taking Martial Training II. Using a custom made magic item for immunity to fatigue to rage-cycle each round to regain the temporary hp from raging combined with the temporary hp from martial power.

I picked Primal Fury for martial training and grabbed him Crushing Blow and Shoulder Rush maneuvers (a lot of his minions are rogues and bandit types, so flat-footing an enemy with Crushing Blow can be a virtual death sentence). When he hits level 9, I plan to give him Running Hunter's Stance with Martial Training II for the 45 feet move speed total in heavy armor. I have been considering giving him Lesser Beast and Beast Totem rage powers for 2 out of his 4 rage powers specifically to grab Greater when hes level 10+ for the Pounce, but I do not know if he will live that long in the campaign to reach 2 or more levels. If he does, then the players have likely done something very wrong or weird. > _ > I was honestly considering giving him the rage powers for more survivability, such as the one to drink a beer and get new saving throws/morale bonuses when raging combined with accelerated drinker trait.

Speaking of traits: Was considering Armor Expert and Accelerated Drinker. Or Wisdom In The Flesh to make Acrobatics wisdom based, so it won't suffer from armor check penalty and his wisdom being 14 vs. his dexterity 10 and all.

Gear? A old 3.5 item I revived, Sandals Of The Vagabond for fatigue immunity, Belt of The Plague Rat for its dex/con bonuses and the 3/day disease and poison rerolls, and a Cloak Of Resistance +2 to help against the save or suck spells a bit. Was considering him using potions of bear's endurance for more survivability, mixed with alcohol to use the "drinking" line of rage powers and accelerated drinker. xD Nothing says you cant make the potions with alcoholic properties! I imagine it tastes like whiskey.

The end result is me trying to make a 'unbreakable' villian - a might makes right, sadistic and cruel man who has been beatin and left for death his entire life and has -refused- to die, only to come back stronger and faster with each defeat. Bitter at his lot in life, and the world, he has managed to survive by will and strength alone, and has browbeated others to serve him to cause chaos and suffering in the region he dwells via banditry, raiding, pillaging, and generally dickery. Any suggestions on rage powers are welcome as well.

[AvatarVecna]

A quick lookover seems to say that it works, but beyond the fact that two of the three feats necessary to make this work are 3rd party, this seems like the kind of thing that could make a DM nervous.

[Jane_Smith]

Our table doesn't care much about core or 3rd party material. However, its usually expected that if a player uses some bull**** combination, the DM has fair game to do the same. Also this is for a npc, not a player character. As stated in the spoiler wrap, trying to make a unbent, unbowed, and unbreakable type warrior with a chip (or ten) on his shoulder that can stand up to a party of 4 people for a long period of time.

With him being level 8, with 26 constitution total, thats about 16 times per day he can heal for 3+1d6 hp as swift actions. Ideally he would enter a rage stance on the same round (the one for +damage) as a standard action after entering a rage as a free action, then use a masterwork potion belt to draw a potion as a free action and accelerated drinking to chug a buff potion for +4 con as a move action in a single round. At level 9+, he can enter his stance on turn 1 as well as a swift action for the +10 foot movement speed/scent stance, but cannot self-heal that same round. -shrug-. He would have 123 hit points base (Dem hp rolls were glorious), +16 for the potions duration, and +16 temporary hp from entering his rage, along with +10 AC From +1 Fullplate Armor. On the 2nd+ turn? He can also begin using martial power and rage cycling to gain up to +28 Temp hp -each round- for a mere -4 to hit on attacks, and then he can begin spamming his swift actions for 3+1d6 hp self heals.

[Psyren]

Thing is though that with indiscriminate allowance of 3rd-party you can pull off far more broken things than classless extra healing every day. So if the combo looks fun to you and your GM is fine with it, go nuts.

[Segev]

The one issue with it is that you can't power-dump vitality points for a lot of healing each round. If you spend 1 point, you get 1+dice+foundling bonus. If you spend 2 points at once, however, it's only one healing, so you only get 2+dice+foundling bonus.

This means your antagonist is likely to still go down awfully fast to concentrated assault, because even 4d6+3 is unlikely to keep up with the damage output of multiple PCs per round.

[Red Fel]

I'm not convinced that it entirely works.

I'll overlook the fact that two of them are third party, because meh, whatever.

Vitality Reserve creates a pool of healing that you can use on yourself. The use of this ability is not designated as (Ex), (Sp), or (Su). I dug around for awhile, and found this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Natural-Abilities):
This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.
Because Vitality Reserve is not designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like, it is a natural ability.

Mystical Healer refers to "any form of healing you generate yourself (extraordinary abilities, spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities)." Since Vitality Reserve is a natural ability, and not one of those listed, Mystical Healer does not increase that amount.

Fey Foundling gives you an additional 2 points per die rolled. Since no dice are being rolled, however, it gives you nothing.

Ultimately, Vitality Reserve is an effective HP bonus that requires an action to use. It is therefore less useful than an actual HP bonus, which is constantly present. On a melee character, this is a wasted feat combination; on a non-melee, this is a wasted feat combination and you probably have a better means of healing. I don't see it flying.

[Segev]

Eh, I think the OP is actually right about feats defaulting to (Ex) abilities. The part you're quoting, Red Fel, is more meant to refer to things like innate move speed, the ability to fly with wings, using skills for their basic effects, swinging weapons as standard and full attacks, that kind of thing.

The moment you need a feat to do something, it's (ex)traordinary because it's a feat merely to accomplish it, let alone do it frequently.


That said, the mere fact that it calls on two third-party feats from different third parties means it's already DM-call enough that quibbling over precision of wording is ultimately only going to matter if the specific DM who is already allowing third party to be used indiscriminately decides to be a stickler for it.

[Jane_Smith]

Red Fel;

1: I already looked it up, by RAW, all feats are considered (Ex) unless they state otherwise, such as Arcane Strike (which was later errated to be Sp or Su, i forgot which).

2: I know Fey Foundling does not work when used with Vitality Reserve. But Vitality Reserve is Ex, which makes Mystic Healer work, which IS dice, which works with Fey Foundling. Its a round-about-way to get to the end result, but, still.

3: Issue I need resolved now is, by RAW, will Mystic Healer count as magical healing FOR Fey Foundling. As stated above, all feats count as EX until listed otherwise. Even Arcane strike got errated quickly due to that bs. However, that means the healing from Mystic Healer would be EX, and can work even in anti-magic zones or the like. Which is kinda badass in and of itself. However Mystic Healer explicitly is better for casters or people with caster levels, like Arcane Strike. Now, obviously, its not listed as SU or SP. And obviously, 3rd party publishers do not publish errata (At least, not often). So by RAW core mechanics, im going to ASSUME its extraordinary default due to nothing listing it otherwise, and fey foundling does not work with it. But I can also assume BCI (By Creators Intention), it was meant to be a magic-healing boost due to its tie with caster level growth and progression. So which wins at the end of the day? Rules as Written, or By Creators Intention? All opinions on 3rd party outside the window, just from a mechanical and author standpoint.


And 4: Can you all stop bitching about 3rd party with virtually every post like its some kinda disease? I don't care what people think about it, if I wanted to make a thread about peoples opinions on 3rd party, I would have -made- one, and likely started a flame war, which nobody appreciates both for a REASON. If paizo itself did not approve of 3rd party, they would not sell there licence to let these 3rd party publishers make this material. They openly acknowledge, appreciate, and promote people to expand upon the game.

I also love the mindset people have - a bunch of people came together and made a new game rule system based on another system, it has to be followed to the letter and no new content can -ever- be added by anyone but them or its some dirty, taboo thing that dirties there little bible. Usually cause of a bunch of variable factors such as imbalance, lack of quality, typo's or worse, just plain bad judgement - most of which the core rules have an issue with as well due to paizo staff being several people from different walks of life sometimes getting confused in the crossfire when publishing new material.

Yet -a bunch of other people come together- and augment the game a bit, just like paizo did,getting the licence/s to publish with there logo/system rules, and its some kinda cursed bastard child nobody wants to talk about or look at, despite those authors and publishers going threw the same work, money, and time, trying to do the same EXACT THING we and paizo do: Enjoy playing a game. Everyone thinks adding some 'dissing' or 'ew' like comment to 3rd party material in every post makes them freaking look smart or cool or something. Take your sticks out of your asses, this thread isn't about whether you like or dislike 3rd party. I found material on the -PATHFINDER SRD-, using -THE PATHFINDER MECHANICS- I want to use, and im asking -PATHFINDER PLAYERS- if this works. Its still freaking pathfinder! Get over yourselves.

So I will ask - please, do not even acknowledge the term "third party" while posting in this thread (or any other I make), or otherwise insult, demean it, devalue it, or diss it or making some comment about "the dm gets to decie if its used or not" (FFS, Every freaking dm in the world knows they can allow or disallow anything they want, they do not NEED YOUR ALLMIGHTY WISDOM TO TELL THEM THAT. REPEATEDLY.) If you can't reframe yourselves from holding back on disrespecting the work of people who have more talent then you who actually get their work published for everyone to see, then you can kindly take your opinion to a different thread.

[Sayt]

Honestly, this seems a hell of a lot more reasonable than the Tiefling Paladin FCB+Fey Foundling build that can heal itself for (5+Cha)*(10+5d6[17.5]+20)=240-430~ hp/day at level ten, each increment as a swift action..

[Psyren]

It's not that people don't like third-party, and nobody's trying to stop you from having fun - rather it's that allowing any source makes the palette much broader and thus answers the question pre-emptively. The response to "can I do {powerful thing} if I allow any third-party source" is usually "yes," so there is a lot less discussion or debate to be had there - much like asking "can I draw {subject} if I use any medium, colors and style that I want."

Regardless, you've made it clear what you're looking for, so I genuinely wish you luck.

[NamelessNPC]

Keep in mind the reserve does not have a maximum and the points you don't use don't disappear at the end of the day. So if you have a lot of combat free days you can keep piling on the healing.

[ericgrau]

If it works level 8 you're healing 2d6+5, maybe up to 10 more if you're desperate. In the significant 3 round portion of a fight you're healing 36 + maybe 8 more if you start losing, so 44 for 3 feats and it eats your swift action. Toughness x 3 = 24, except you're not allowed to stack toughness. So it's pretty strong but not insane.

It could be nice on a shield other build too. But let's see. 10th level you get 3d6+7 per round as a swift. Average 17.5. Quickened cure light wounds averages 9.5. So 8 hp difference. x 3 = 24. Worse than toughness x 3. Or if you're desperate and blow all your reserves after 3 rounds there's around a 10 hp per round difference, about the same as toughness x 3. So actually combined with the fact that it eats your swift action, it's a pretty ho-hum combo on any build that uses its swifts. And there are probably some ways to use your swift that are better than quickened cure light wounds.

[TheifofZ]

In general, groups tend to be leery of 3rd party stuff because of several reasons. First: It increases the range of options by a wide margin, as stated above. Second: many third party publishers tend to consider balancing a secondary goal. and the most important Third: There's a LOT of third party stuff out there, and most of it pays no attention to -other- third party stuff out there; this makes it really easy to find and create some rather... extensively overbearing combinations. So that's why people are discussing 3rd party like it's a leprous growth.

As to the combination of feats: If you look at it with your eyes squinted alittle, it should do exactly what it looks like it does. The downside, of course, is that you're eating up 3 feats for sub-par self healing as your 1 swift action each round. So... 3 feats for one thing; sub par total function; and it's healing, which is historically viewed as less ideal than prevention.
Honestly, if the vitality healed for the total pool with each point of vitality, it'd be solid. Level+con+3d6+6 isn't to be sniffed at as swift healing, but 7+3d6 isn't too great at 10th.
Decently built anything should be able to deal with that much every round and still make gains. Sure, the healing is adding an average of 20 hp every round, but if the party blows through 50 hp from a single target in the same space of time (and again, at 10th level I'd be sad if they couldn't) then all you're doing is stalling.
Assuming 123 hp+32 from rage+potion, that's 155 hp. AND assuming each round the party deals exactly 50 and he heals the 20 (so we're being nice) that's coming to 30 damage actually dealt per round, so that translates to 125 at the end of round one, 95 at the end of round 2, 65 at the end of round 3, 35 at the end of round 4, and 5 at the end of round 5 (if he heals as soon as the round starts), and then the wizard sneezes on him, he drops under 0, drops out of rage and immediately dies because of con loss.
And because you spent his 1st, 3rd, and 5th feat slots on some wonky combination for that healing, he's only got power attack to do anything real with, and his rage powers. Assuming he took the option to sunder magic (which he needs to throw down against an 8th level party alone), he's not gonna do much to them at all.

Besides that, fights that take forever tend to feel protracted, boring, and unpleasant. Especially if all the target is doing is stalling for time. If there's a reason that it's important they get past him, maybe. But if the world isn't in immediate threat of exploding, or the local King's virginal daughter is not about to be offered to the peckish red dragon that happens to be just strong enough to seriously threaten the party... then just stalling makes for a terrible fight.

[ericgrau]

Swift action healing >> standard or full round action attack so even if it doesn't heal all the damage you take in a round it's still nice, just not crazy. If you really wanted to you could stack it with standard action healing to exceed the damage you take many rounds. Though really what you do is get some extra hp while you do other things. If it really did negate the enemy's entire turn of attacking while letting you take your turn to also do other things it'd be pretty nutso.