Failing as a DM

[dropbear8mybaby]

I cannot, for the life of me, seem to get my players to explore things or follow up on things or do much of anything except randomly wander from place to place, kill things for no rhyme or reason, and completely ignore all plot hooks and dungeons I put in front of them. No matter what I try to do to entice them, nothing seems to work. Tried setting up all sorts of plot related to their character backstories, frontstories, side-stories, tried friendly NPC's, unfriendly NPC's, vengeful NPC's. I'm honestly at a loss right now as to what to do next. I keep asking them for feedback but getting nothing. Not even treasure seems to interest them. It's getting frustrating.

[Red Fel]

I cannot, for the life of me, seem to get my players to explore things or follow up on things or do much of anything except randomly wander from place to place, kill things for no rhyme or reason, and completely ignore all plot hooks and dungeons I put in front of them. No matter what I try to do to entice them, nothing seems to work. Tried setting up all sorts of plot related to their character backstories, frontstories, side-stories, tried friendly NPC's, unfriendly NPC's, vengeful NPC's. I'm honestly at a loss right now as to what to do next. I keep asking them for feedback but getting nothing. Not even treasure seems to interest them. It's getting frustrating.

Sometimes, it's not the DM. Sometimes, your players are just murderhobos.

Know what you do then? Provide the game they want. They want to wander around and kill stuff for no reason? Do it. Give them a world of consequence-free murder. Provide them with a series of increasingly awesome battles, peppered with places to rest and heal because the cosmos demands it. Then set them loose to murder more.

This isn't a case of DM failure. This is a case of different expectations. You want a game, they want a murder simulator. You can either give them the murder simulator, and take pleasure in the fact that you're providing what they want, or you can find their goals unsatisfying, and give up. And there's no shame in either - a DM who acknowledges he can't run a game the players want is better than one who tries and fails miserably.

You know what they want. Now decide what you want, and go from there.

[BWR]

My mother is fond of saying "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink". Usually in regards to me, but the points stands. RFel has the right of it, if they want X and you want Y and no amount of coaxing will help, just roll with it. The best thing you can do if you want to try to change their ways is have a heart to heart before a session. Just state in clear and concise language that you want them to try something more RP-focused and you want to start a new game that will focus more on that (I would suggest an entirely different type of game, like Ars Magica, WoD, L5R, CoC/Delta Green/Laundry Files or something else rather removed from D&D since a new set of expectations might very well help). If they show no interest in this, admit defeat and give them what they want.

[Yora]

If the players don't want to take any initiative, make descisions for them. Tell them they have to make characters that are soldiers in an army and they get orders from their superior what places they need to go and what to do there. Then they need to figure out how to beat the enemies they face.

[Jay R]

It's possible that they've only played in murderhobo games before, and don't even consider anything else. There are ways to at least show them another way:

OOC: Tell them that you left clues to various plots, and ask them if they want to follow up on any of them.

IC: Include an NPC who picks up on a plot line and asks for their help defeating the evil wizard-flumph. Then kill off that character on the way.

But if, after that way is pointed out to them, they still don't want to play that way, then give them the game they want.

Don't play football with somebody who wants to play chess.

[AxeAlex]

Other posters summed it pretty well.

You should also make sure they actually WANT to play. Maybe they just use RPGs as a excuse for a friendly gathering.

In this case, board games (or the like) would fulfill this need without putting unessecary responsabilities on your shoulders, and without the frustration of creating a story but having no one to share it to.

If your are certain your players actually look foward to play RPGs, then, as pointed already, you just have to make sure what they seek out of the game (Combat? Power? Story? Intrigue? Strategy? Challenges?), and act accordingly.

[LaserFace]

Are your players having fun? They might be ignoring all your attempts at getting their attention, but is it because you're not providing what they like, or simply that they enjoy doing nothing? I'd ask them OOC what they enjoy about D&D, and see if that directs me toward something new.

[dropbear8mybaby]

You know what they want. Now decide what you want, and go from there.
This is the problem. What interests me as the DM is seeing a group progress through a story where they are the ones that drive the narrative. So far there really is no narrative at all because they shy away from it every single time. So I'm losing interest in running the game.


The best thing you can do if you want to try to change their ways is have a heart to heart before a session. Just state in clear and concise language that you want them to try something more RP-focused and you want to start a new game that will focus more on that (I would suggest an entirely different type of game, like Ars Magica, WoD, L5R, CoC/Delta Green/Laundry Files or something else rather removed from D&D since a new set of expectations might very well help).
Yeup, tried this. Said that I'd be willing to run a module in a different setting. No dice. They all wanted to continue in this (my homebrew) setting, with these characters and this game system. So I said that they need to start pursuing a particular goal instead of ignoring every plot-hook and making no effort to create their own and just going in random directions. So they all said, "OK," and continued to ignore all plot-hooks, not make any of their own, and go in random directions.


If the players don't want to take any initiative, make descisions for them. Tell them they have to make characters that are soldiers in an army and they get orders from their superior what places they need to go and what to do there. Then they need to figure out how to beat the enemies they face.
I started the game vehemently insisting that all characters needed to be heroically oriented with personal backstories that connected them to the setting and gave them reasons to adventure, as well as personal mentors and motivations. They've ignored all of them.


OOC: Tell them that you left clues to various plots, and ask them if they want to follow up on any of them.
Yeah, I've been doing a lot of out of character stuff, trying to explain various DM'ing reasoning so that they understand the logical repercussions and my decision-making processes. The idea was to hopefully show them that things happen because of what they do, and that without follow-up, everything is going to seem like random events rather than story progression. Hasn't worked.


Maybe they just use RPGs as a excuse for a friendly gathering.
Maybe this, which is fine by me, but if that's the case, I'd rather just be a player.


Are your players having fun?
They say they are, yes.


I'd ask them OOC what they enjoy about D&D, and see if that directs me toward something new.
Done that, they all said what I'm doing is fine. I think it's me that's not enjoying it and that's what's becoming a problem.

[Jay R]

Yeah, I've been doing a lot of out of character stuff, trying to explain various DM'ing reasoning so that they understand the logical repercussions and my decision-making processes. The idea was to hopefully show them that things happen because of what they do, and that without follow-up, everything is going to seem like random events rather than story progression. Hasn't worked.

Now follow my suggestion, which was to ask them if they want to follow up on any of them.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Now follow my suggestion, which was to ask them if they want to follow up on any of them.

Again, done all of this. This is why I'm at the end of my tether. I've tried everything I can think of.

[Red Fel]

This is the problem. What interests me as the DM is seeing a group progress through a story where they are the ones that drive the narrative. So far there really is no narrative at all because they shy away from it every single time. So I'm losing interest in running the game.

Then you have to say so.

Look, when the DM ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. And it's not because the DM is necessarily vindictive or petty; some aren't. Rather, it's because an unhappy DM is a DM who is no longer invested. As you note, you're losing interest.

This happens to a lot of DMs, for various reasons. Maybe the game isn't shaping up like you expect, maybe you're working too hard on it, maybe you're just burnt out. A lot of DMs run out of steam at one point or another.

What you do now is tell the players this. Explain to them that you're losing interest in the game. Offer to hand over the reins, or to start another game, or something. Ask if you can play in one of their games for a change. But change up the routine.

Step one is recognizing the problem. Mission accomplished. Step two is doing something about it. And that begins with a conversation.

[Jay R]

Now follow my suggestion, which was to ask them if they want to follow up on any of them.Again, done all of this. This is why I'm at the end of my tether. I've tried everything I can think of.

Then, assuming you listened to their answer to that question, you already have your solution. Either:

1. They said they want to follow the plothooks, and are now playing the way you want, or
2. They said they didn't want to follow the plothooks, and you stopped setting up plots.

Which is it? What answer did they give to that question?

[dropbear8mybaby]

Then, assuming you listened to their answer to that question, you already have your solution. Either:

1. They said they want to follow the plothooks, and are now playing the way you want, or
2. They said they didn't want to follow the plothooks, and you stopped setting up plots.

Which is it? What answer did they give to that question?

It's the third option. They say they want to follow and develop plot hooks and then don't.

[TurboGhast]

It's the third option. They say they want to follow and develop plot hooks and then don't.

You should probably tell them that they are not following the plot hooks you are adding. They might simply not know that the plot hooks are getting skipped.

[dropbear8mybaby]

You should probably tell them that they are not following the plot hooks you are adding. They might simply not know that the plot hooks are getting skipped.
I'd prefer to be subtle as a DM and let players take up clues and run with them to develop their own story. But I'm at a point now where I'm explaining everything I'm doing as a DM and telling them stuff that they've missed because they're not picking up or running with any of them. I've asked if they're interesting hooks, I've asked what hooks would interest them, I've asked everything.

Honestly, this whole thread was me venting after a failed session so I'm not sure what I'm expecting out of it. I'm fairly certain that all the answers are going to be stuff I've tried already. I think that I'll give it one last shot but if they abandon and go in the opposite direction of the plot hook they're currently following, yet again, then I'm going to give up.

[georgie_leech]

If you say they're not interested in plothooks, what if that's the plot? Say after every session there's a town crier giving the latest news about this strange band of killers roaming the countryside. Nobles and royalty gather in emergency meetings to try to determine where they'll strike next. Mystic sages are consulted as to their motivations. Whispers in the streets warn of an ancient being of chaos reaching out and touching the land once more.

[TheThan]

I'd prefer to be subtle as a DM and let players take up clues and run with them to develop their own story. But I'm at a point now where I'm explaining everything I'm doing as a DM and telling them stuff that they've missed because they're not picking up or running with any of them. I've asked if they're interesting hooks, I've asked what hooks would interest them, I've asked everything.


Obtuseness and subtletyDOES NOT WORK with players, ever, no not even then. You have to be as subtle as a sledge hammer strapped to a stick of dynamite, smashing a plane of glass in an echo chamber. Players are guaranteed to miss the point, and your subtlety placed clues and elaborately weaved plot ideas will go complete unnoticed. Consider whats happening in your game, players are missing plot hooks and clues left and right. So be blunt, be really stupidly blunt, be so blunt that they can't possibly miss it, then be even more blunt. So the first thing I would try is to change your DMing style. Use the KISS approach, (Keep It Simple, Stupid). It usually works, the less complex a piece of bait, the more likely the players will latch onto it.

if that doesn't work, then ask them again what's going on. See if you can get them to give you feedback, constructive criticism, etc. as always be incredibly blunt. Tell them that you're concerned about the direction of the campaign and ask them why they don't seem to be interested in any of your plot hooks and why the seem to be only interested in the murderhobo approach. If they don't give you a straight answer and continue to not cooperate then its time to get cute.

Now to get cute this is what I’d do: force a plot on them. Let them come across something, murderhobo it. Then later (say the next session), have enemies come after them, bounty hunters and/or assassins work wonders here. Don’t reveal this all at once, but craft a situation where the PCs have pissed off something with a lot of power and influence and is working to destroy them. Keep up the pressure and keep sending progressively more difficult enemies after them. Drop obvious clues. Once there are consequences for their actions, they’ll pay attention and start trying to figure out who they pissed off and how to murderhobo him in kind. Bingo a plot! And they’re going to be interested in following.

[dropbear8mybaby]

If you say they're not interested in plothooks, what if that's the plot? Say after every session there's a town crier giving the latest news about this strange band of killers roaming the countryside. Nobles and royalty gather in emergency meetings to try to determine where they'll strike next. Mystic sages are consulted as to their motivations. Whispers in the streets warn of an ancient being of chaos reaching out and touching the land once more.
That's what's currently happening. They have an Inquisitor investigating the unprovoked murder (and when I say murder, I mean cold-blooded execution in one case) of seven soldiers of the holy order (a semi-theocracy where police and religion are the same).


So be blunt, be really stupidly blunt, be so blunt that they can't possibly miss it, then be even more blunt.
Already way past that point.


See if you can get them to give you feedback, constructive criticism, etc. as always be incredibly blunt.
Yeup, done all that.


Then later (say the next session), have enemies come after them, bounty hunters and/or assassins work wonders here.
Just finished a session where someone tried to get revenge. Also had a revenant come after one of them (he was murdered in cold blood for doing nothing more than trying to run away because they told him they were going to kill him). They've also now got the Inquisitor and the resources of a very powerful national religion after them. The problem with this is that I was very clear about expecting them to create heroic, GOOD characters.

Did I mention that they butchered the corpse of the person who tried to get revenge on them for what they did to him? And took trophies? And that this was one of the mentors of two of the PC's?

[Malcador]

What did the players say when you asked them why they keep murdering people?

[SethoMarkus]

The problem with this is that I was very clear about expecting them to create heroic, GOOD characters. of the PC's?

Have you told them "No, this is not the game we agreed to play"? I mean, if you aren't enjoying the game, and they say they want game x but play game y, I think the only solutions are as follows:

>You suck it up and continue running a plotless murder hobo extravaganza.
>You end the game and move on to something else.
>You make it clear to the players that you are changing the game style, then stick to it.

There are many ways to try these options, but you need to pick one and go through with it. If everyone wants to keep playing an RPG, but you don't want to DM a murderfest, then make it clear to the players that either the gameplay changes or the game ends. Maybe talk it through with each player individually? Maybe talk to the group as a whole and call them out on claiming to want plot hooks but refusing to follow them? Maybe ignore any actions that don't follow your ideal game, pretending they decided on a different action? Regardless of what you do, communicate your intentions to the group and be candid.

[ScrivenerofDoom]

Ahhh, players. They're a joy when they do the right thing. They're a nightmare otherwise.

Unfortunately, they're human and that means some of them delight in being obtuse and/or contrary. It sounds like your group has embraced both.

My first reaction is to get a new group. You've tried everything and they're still persisting with a style of game that, ultimately, is nihilistic and no fun unless the DM is of a similar bent. Tell them frankly that the next session is the last one, that you're going to wrap up the story, and that's the end.

Two things could happen. They accept your decision or they try and persuade you to continue. In the case of the former, you will need to find new players or quit DMing for a while. (Personally, I'm a fan of regular breaks from D&Das it keeps you fresh.) In the case of the latter, you have the leverage you need to negotiate a more heroic style of game as was previously agreed. Start afresh and give them 1-2 sessions to prove that they are sincere otherwise simply end the campaign again.

Honestly, no gaming is better than bad gaming. When DMing turns into work then it's time to take a break. And when players turn into turds, flush 'em (so to speak).

[Jay R]

I'd prefer to be subtle as a DM and let players take up clues and run with them to develop their own story.

How old are they? How clever are they? How subtle are they?

The plot cannot be above their heads. It can't be clever than the players. And the hooks can't ever be more subtle than the players.

Run the game that they can play, not the game that you prefer.


But I'm at a point now where I'm explaining everything I'm doing as a DM and telling them stuff that they've missed because they're not picking up or running with any of them. I've asked if they're interesting hooks, I've asked what hooks would interest them, I've asked everything.

Don't explain it as a DM. Explain it as a sage or a Ranger or a rescued princess. Make the explanation part of the game.

If you hide the Easter eggs too well, they don't get found.


Honestly, this whole thread was me venting after a failed session so I'm not sure what I'm expecting out of it.

Did they enjoy the "failed session? It may not have been a failure.


I'm fairly certain that all the answers are going to be stuff I've tried already.

If necessary, have somebody hire them who can explain the plot. That's OK. Even Harry Potter needed Dumbledore to explain the plot to him and the end of the first five books.


I think that I'll give it one last shot but if they abandon and go in the opposite direction of the plot hook they're currently following, yet again, then I'm going to give up.

A plot hook of people following them and trying to kill them can't be ignored. Even if they haven't picked up the plot, if the BBEG thinks they have and sends squads out after them they are in the plot.

[Lord Torath]

Ditch the good Inquisitor coming after them. He gets distracted by a plot of the BBEG, which is far more threatening than a roving band of murder hobos. No, one of the people they murdered happened to be the boyhood/girlhood friend of the BBEG, and now he/she wants REVENGE!

If the good guys are coming after them, they have to fight them, and then become more evil. So don't have good guys come after them. The next time the PCs are in combat with servants of the Inquisitor (a close fight, that the PCs will have to work hard to beat), have another group from the Inquisitor arrive (so now the PCs are seriously overmatched), shout a command to the forces fighting the PCs, and then the entire group breaks off combat and leaves (to go address a move the BBEG has made). Have the first group state that they're here to administer the Inquisitor's will (they're the good guys, so they announce who they are and why they're attacking). Combat starts. Two to five rounds later (just when things are starting to get good), the reinforcements show up, and the leader of the newcomers shouts the disengage order. "But we've almost got them beat!" "This is more important! Your forces are needed at <your favorite location>. Now!"

From now on, the only people they meet are servants of the BBEG. If they try to pursue the retreating Inquisitorial forces, have them get ambushed by the BBEG assassins. One of them will mention that they have offended BBEG, and he/she's NOT the forgiving type.

And now your murderhobos are fighting the right guy.

[Segev]

You say you've been "beyond blunt" with them.

I assume, therefore, you've tried something like this:

When they perform a cold-blooded, brutally Evil act, pause the game and tell them, "Wait, this is a horribly, awfully capital-E Evil act. Are you sure you want to do this? Why would your Good-aligned characters behave this way? What is your goal?"

When they abandon a plot hook, pause the game and say, "Guys, you realize that there is nothing at all that way. The plot hook is this: [outline it in clear OOC terms]; why are you going [place] and [doing whatever they're doing that's unrelated to pursuing the plot]?"

When you do this, what is their response?

[Thrudd]

I think you should take a step back and look at the game on a game level. What is actually the goal of the players? They may not be taking the story bait you are giving them, but they are doing something, presumably to achieve some end, and I assume they are gaining levels somehow?
Usually the goal of players in D&D is to advance their characters, gain levels. How are they getting XP to do that? This is how you encourage and control their behavior, by awarding XP. Gaining magic items and spells is the other way characters advance, outside of levelling. Presumably the players are also looking to get those. Do your plot hooks revolve around rumors of magic items and spells to be found?

How do they get most of their XP in your game? By killing things? So they probably are looking for the things to kill which present the least amount of risk to their characters. If you want to change that, change how you award XP or level their characters. Change the manner in which you award wealth and magic items and spells. If you are serious about wanting them to engage with a narrative you have prepped, then all or most of their character advancing rewards should come only when they do that. No serious wealth or items or XP is found except when they make story advancements. Some narrative focused games reward levels after accomplishing plot points, and dont even bother with XP.

If you want to keep the sandbox, then expect them to chase after XP and more power, and you control where/how those things are found and the circumstances surrounding them.

[noob]

Making murder hobo evil does not fix their behavior they just keep doing the same thing.
So making them fight good people will not make them think about the fact they were wrong.
(also tell your players than avoiding a monster or a trap gives you as much XP as killing it or finding it and sabotaging it(I remember having read something like that in the manuals))

[TheThan]

Thrudd has an excellent point but here's other things that you could do.

you should totally shift their alignment to chaotic evil. If there's a paladin in the party, he's screwed, if there's a non-evil cleric in the party, he's screwed; animals stop being friendly to rangers and druids, druids accidentally lose their spells and other powers; wizards and sorcerers start having night terrors over the atrocities they've accomplished and can't rest long enough to regain their spells, fighters start gaining blood lust and lose control in battle allowing you, as DM to determine who is attacked each round randomly (think JRPG chaos spells).

Make it so that they can't approach towns without being attacked by the city guard and not reward them XP for it. Any gear they get from these fights they can't sell because the local merchants don't sell to murderers especially those that kill town guards. They can't get rooms at inns and taverns sell their booze at drastically inflated prices (five gold no ten gold for a flagon of ale that sort of stuff). the locals hate and fear them. Make their reputation so bad that even the thieves and assassins guilds won't touch them; tribes of monstrous creatures won't touch them. Completely isolate them from all possible support. You could even send demons after them to make Faustian bargains with them, if they decline and attack either kill them outright or not grant them experience for it. When they ask what's going on tell them this is the natural consequences of their actions. that you've been warning them since the start and they ignored your warnings. Now paladins and good clerics need to seek atonement spells or have nothing; wizards and sorcerers need to seek a special ritual to remove the curses of the night terrors, druids and rangers need to seek out a fount of nature to regain their powers fighter types will have to seek out special spiritual training to regain their composure in battle (think spending time in meditation in a secluded mountain temple). Basically force atonement on them.

Another option is to murder the characters back. Seriously, if you don't want this behavior then remove it. Take off the kit gloves and send overly powerful creatures at them. Give them absolutely no chance to win, or flee for that matter, ambush them with multiple high CR creatures that are evasive and have effects that target their weakness; high HP monsters isn't good enough (although it makes for a good distraction) you have to be aggressive and dirty, ambush them when they're low on spells, target the holes in their defense and be totally merciless. Don't give them a snowball's chance. Then when they complain, tell them turnabout is fair play. They've been treading over your campaign so you decided to tread over their characters. Don't just quit and end the campaign (that makes them win), crush them and let them know you're not playing nice anymore.

[noob]

Reply to the above post:
Players came here because they liked to kill if you suddenly decide to punish their characters while before you was letting them do everything they wanted then they will simply outright stop playing and so you will simply have fixed nothing and made them angrier than if you said that you no longer want to be gm and stop.

Reply to the main topic
Stopping is a solution.
If you really want to play with players following the scenario simply ask them if they want to play a game where they play as good Exalted people speaking to other people and following a scenario or if they just like fighting if it is the latter then stop if it is the first then explain how they should change their behavior and change some rules about XP gaining accordingly(like they gain xp only when doing good quests helping people while harming the least possible people and that they loose XP each time one of their action have negative repercussions) then if they want to play with those rules create a new campaign and new characters which had not been tainted by murder and then play with them and see if they follow the promises they did to you.

[dropbear8mybaby]

I think you should take a step back and look at the game on a game level. What is actually the goal of the players? They may not be taking the story bait you are giving them, but they are doing something, presumably to achieve some end, and I assume they are gaining levels somehow?

Nope. We do story goal based levelling. I've already talked to them about changing that to normal XP because they weren't following any story and therefore can't level up since you can't finish something you never start. They all said they want to keep story goal based levelling, so they're not levelling up. This is another reason why I'm at a loss. I constantly put hooks in front of them and they constantly veer away from them. As I mentioned earlier, not even treasure seems to entice them.


you should totally shift their alignment to chaotic evil.
I don't use alignment. Only one character follows a god and his god isn't a goody-two-shoes god, plus he's the only player who hasn't participated in the outright brutality, rather more just protecting his friends.

Having said that, I also strictly required the characters be of good intent and action. Should I cross the line and consider them to have become evil, honestly, I'll just stop DM'ing. They're almost there.


Make it so that they can't approach towns without being attacked by the city guard and not reward them XP for it.
That's currently happening. Their reputation is starting to spread. Having said that, it doesn't happen instantaneously across the entire continent. They're travelling a lot so things like this take time to spread. The Inquisitor being on their trail (who is absolutely not a good type at all) will boost the spread of their reputation as once he knows who they are (he only just started his investigation), he'll spread bounty notices.


Another option is to murder the characters back. Seriously, if you don't want this behavior then remove it.
I don't work like that. Such a game is neither one I want to play or DM in. I try to remain as neutral as possible as a DM, other than to meta-game along the lines of saying, "You realise what you're about to do I consider to be evil, right?" Short of that, only what I think will happen as a logical consequence of player actions, or as a natural part of the setting and events happening around the PC's, will happen. Even the plot-hooks I put in front of them are only ever done through thinking, "OK, so what would this NPC be thinking, how would he react, what would be his goals and aims," or the like.

[Thrudd]

Nope. We do story goal based levelling. I've already talked to them about changing that to normal XP because they weren't following any story and therefore can't level up since you can't finish something you never start. They all said they want to keep story goal based levelling, so they're not levelling up. This is another reason why I'm at a loss. I constantly put hooks in front of them and they constantly veer away from them. As I mentioned earlier, not even treasure seems to entice them.

Well that is very strange. So they aren't levelling up, they aren't looking for gear, they ignore story, what are they doing during your sessions? Are there combats? Is it a group that goofs around and has lots of non game related conversations, always being distracted by videos and other stuff? Do they spend lots of time obsessing over inconsequential game elements, like haggling for supplies or trying to mess with random townsfolk? They must be doing something during your playing time.

Another issue is you asked them to make good heroic characters and they clearly don't want to play that way despite having agreed to. So you have a couple options. Keep struggling along doing the same thing and hoping they change, which might never happen. Or end the campaign since it isn't going anywhere and start a new one. This time, just play it as a straight up narrative game and give them strict character guidelines so each character fits the narrative you want. Full on railroad adventure path, if that's what you want.

If you want sandbox, let them play any way they want, any alignment, and just populate the world with stuff. You could probably do this now. They want to be hired assassins? Fine, let them pursue contracts, and when they do complications ensue and theres some sort of adventure. Assassins guild approaches them, maybe they join, maybe they are rivals. Their behavior impacts how people treat them, use a renown/infamy system to track their fame and how people will react to them.

Basically, consider whether there is something you can use in the way they are playing to bring some kind of action/meaning into the game. If not, start over again and be clearer about expectations and stricter with character options.

Best option might be episodic adventures with firmly regulated characters. "You are the king's loyal special agents. He has sent you to neighboring kingdom to rescue the prince. You are at the palace where you were told on good authority he is being held. Break in there, find him, and bring him home alive."

Every session will just be a mission or adventure like this. Tell them the setup, put them close to the entrance, and let them go. Have recurring characters and plot threads which link the adventures, slowly revealing a bigger story, like an episodic tv series. If they decide to abandon the premise of the game or mive the character to a point where they can't participate in the missions, then retire the chatacter and they make a new one which is appropriate for the game.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Sounds like you need to quit as DM.

Hate to say it, but it's pretty clear based on your descriptions that you're not enjoying the job, and nothing's going to change that, least of all your players. Frankly, it seems like they're intentionally ignoring you, based on everything I've read in here so far, and that's not an environment that's ever fun to GM in.

[ShaneMRoth]

You are only failing as a DM if your players don't want to play at your table anymore.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Sounds like you need to quit as DM.

Hate to say it, but it's pretty clear based on your descriptions that you're not enjoying the job, and nothing's going to change that, least of all your players. Frankly, it seems like they're intentionally ignoring you, based on everything I've read in here so far, and that's not an environment that's ever fun to GM in.
It's not so much that I'm not enjoying it, it's more that I'm not getting anything out of it as a DM. For me, running a home game is about seeing the PC's engage in and evolve their own story. So far, the only "story" that's evolved is that they're a bunch of random marauders who seem to have no rhyme or reason for their actions. That just plain and simple doesn't interest me.

I have fun at the sessions but that's a type of fun I could have DM'ing a module, or as a player, not as a DM putting the effort into running a homebrew game.


You are only failing as a DM if your players don't want to play at your table anymore.
Which is another issue. They are saying to me that they enjoy the sessions. I've asked often enough and asked if they want to make changes, etc. Makes it harder to quit on them :smallconfused:

[Kish]

Makes it harder to quit on them :smallconfused:
Then keep doing what you're doing.

The things that might make them change what they're doing you've all indicated fall into two categories, "tried and didn't work" or "I'm not willing to do that." Judging by your actions it appears that while you would prefer they play motivated heroes rather than random murderhobos, and despite your initial words here, you'd rather run the game for murderhobos than not run it at all.

[Jay R]

It's clear that you are not communicating with them and/or they are not communicating with you.

Either way, we're getting their side through you, and it isn't coming through. You might try to get some of them to post to this thread, so we can read their own interpretation of their position.

[Reltzik]

Give them a plot that they can't refuse.

Like a BBGG got together an avenging army of their victims family and is coming after them for revenge. They'll remember everyone they killed as well as you do, right? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html)

[Nerd-o-rama]

It's not so much that I'm not enjoying it, it's more that I'm not getting anything out of it as a DM. For me, running a home game is about seeing the PC's engage in and evolve their own story. So far, the only "story" that's evolved is that they're a bunch of random marauders who seem to have no rhyme or reason for their actions. That just plain and simple doesn't interest me.

I have fun at the sessions but that's a type of fun I could have DM'ing a module, or as a player, not as a DM putting the effort into running a homebrew game.

That would be something I'd define as "not having fun", but I guess coming at this from an outside perspective is different from actually experiencing it.

Basically, in answer to your original question, the only person you're failing is yourself, assuming you really are the only person who isn't satisfied. Changing the game (to premades or a different game entirely, neither of which your players want) or changing your perspective (to 'okay let's just be murderhobos and I'll throw obstacles at them for them to kill', which you clearly don't want) are really your only options at this point other than quit or keep doing what you're doing.

[mephnick]

You are only failing as a DM if your players don't want to play at your table anymore.

Well, if you're not enjoying the experience as the DM it will eventually be a failure of a campaign, regardless of player enjoyment. At some point, that campaign will suffer harshly because of burn out.

[MrConsideration]

Meet them halfway.

Rejig your gameworld to something like The West Marches (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/).

You're in a frontier-region. It is broadly lawless and broadly undiscovered. Characters come here to escape their old lives.

There is a town, a base-camp - it is boring. Players leave her ASAP to stop them committing random acts of evil. Don't bother fleshing the town out, or having social encounters in it if your players are not interested.


There's a sandbox map. On it are loads of possible adventure locations - the Fane of the Corpse Cult, the ruins of the city of Iskanderlat, the Tunnels of Svorge. The further away from civilization you go, the greater the dangers, but the greater the rewards. Your players aren't interested in character motivations, your adventure hooks tied to their backstories, or any of that. Let your players decide, based on minimal instructions, which location they'd like to quest towards. There are tonnes of free dungeons and random encounter tables you can use to populate these territories online, so don't over-prep. Just have an encounter (two owlbears!) a location (ruins of an elven shrine) and some kind of complication (there's a druid guarding the shrine, but he's wary of the owlbears.) Let players do whatever they want.

Your players go out into the wilderness and freely murder-hobo. Keep giving them things, though. The loyalty of a tribe of goblins. A merchant who, once rescued, gives the players a deed to a inn in the town. A Hag who rewards them with prophecies. A castle they can clear out and own. Give them a standing in the world as a reward for successful door-kicking, murder-hoboing adventure. If they get attached to any of these things - and they will - you have your hooks. To repair the castle and becomes lords of the region, you need to do x for the King of Y. The Goblins are threatened by a Z. More traffic would come to the town if the bandits were dealt with. The Hag needs the eye of a manticore to work out some secret about the world.

Hopefully, character traits will naturally emerge from the gameplay that ensues - even if they start as jokes. Even if your players emerge as mercenaries only interested in plunder, that's some kind of characterisation.

Communicate these expectations to your players. If they don't ever change their behaviour or interest in the game....you might want to do something else when you hang with these friends.

[Lord Torath]

Have you asked your players what kind of plot hooks they want? How do they react when you bluntly tell them, "That was the plot hook you just turned down."? or "You can go that way, but there's nothing there. The plot is back this way."?

[Takewo]

Have you considered the option that your players might be making sport of you?

I mean, it sounds like you were pretty clear about your expectations of the game to begin with and they agreed to it. You've tried to tell them that it's not working as supposed, and they agreed on stick to a story based game and keep saying that are fine with your game mastering way and how things are going.

I can only think that they are either making fun of the game/the master or an oyster's IQ is higher that theirs.

[dropbear8mybaby]

I can only think that they are either making fun of the game/the master or an oyster's IQ is higher that theirs.

That's a really mean thing to say about oysters.

[Takewo]

Sometimes you just gotta be harsh. Nothing personal against the oysters.

[zinycor]

Don't make it so they have to pick plot hooks, make the plot hooks pick them.

What I mean by this, is that you should make it so they have no other option but to take the plot hooks, for example, they arrive at a town, and whatever they do when they get to the town, suddenly, the town gets attacked by a big bad evil dragon/lich/evil army. Now the plot is they surviving the attack, and they don't really have an option of picking this hook.

In order for this to work, it should be clear that the danger is real, if the characters just go attacking face first, they will die, and if needed kill them if they make stupid decisions. Since they are interested in murderhoboing, put interesting encounters in there, new creatures, NPCs with funny tactics, etc.

Since they are not behaving like good aligned characters, you could force them into behaving like good aligned characters. Over-reward them when they behave like nice people, punish them hardly for doing evil things, give themm no chances to behave like *******s.

Don't worry about verosimilitude, if you want a NPC to go against them, don't make it so the Inquisitor has to investigate the case of them. He only needs to show up knowing the things that you should think he should know, in the end the story isn't about the inquisitor, is about the players, and the inquisitor (just like every enemy or NPC) is a plot convenience and only exist for having some effect on the players.

In the end, my advice is to make it so they have to pick plot hooks, otherwise there would be terrible consequences. If you make a dungeon, make it so they have to enter there, maybe the dungeon is the only safe place to hide from an angry demon that's trying to kill them, for whatever reson you come up with.

On the other hand, you could always pik another group to play with.

[PoeticDwarf]

I cannot, for the life of me, seem to get my players to explore things or follow up on things or do much of anything except randomly wander from place to place, kill things for no rhyme or reason, and completely ignore all plot hooks and dungeons I put in front of them. No matter what I try to do to entice them, nothing seems to work. Tried setting up all sorts of plot related to their character backstories, frontstories, side-stories, tried friendly NPC's, unfriendly NPC's, vengeful NPC's. I'm honestly at a loss right now as to what to do next. I keep asking them for feedback but getting nothing. Not even treasure seems to interest them. It's getting frustrating.

Ignoring plothooks, that's what all players do!

[Darth Ultron]

I cannot, for the life of me, seem to get my players to explore things or follow up on things or do much of anything except randomly wander from place to place, kill things for no rhyme or reason, and completely ignore all plot hooks and dungeons I put in front of them. No matter what I try to do to entice them, nothing seems to work. Tried setting up all sorts of plot related to their character backstories, frontstories, side-stories, tried friendly NPC's, unfriendly NPC's, vengeful NPC's. I'm honestly at a loss right now as to what to do next. I keep asking them for feedback but getting nothing. Not even treasure seems to interest them. It's getting frustrating.

A lot of players are like this: they simply do not want to role play and nothing will ever make them do so.....but they do want to ''play the game''.

Greed is often the best motivator for such players. You said you tried ''treasure''? But maybe you have not tried the right kind of treasure. Are you doing the D&D classic standard of ''save the kingdom and get 100 gold coins reward?" That simply is not enough for this type of player. So you might want to up the amount. You might also want to add in magic items. Powerful magic items. Even better if you make unique and powerful magic items. And even crazy ones.

Often players that just sit there an do nothing for a game will get all excited and play if their character might get a vorpal sword +5. Or any other such items the character can use.

Sneaky power recharge items might work too. The sword of obliteration does 10 points of damage for every spell level it absorbs.....but, of course, you need to keep to charged with spell levels. This can keep the players moving to keep recharging. And if they are the type to farm spells, just make it only absorb hostile spells.

You might also want to switch to a Quantum leap type game. It is simple enough: '' the group finds themselves leaping from place to place, striving to put right what once went wrong, and hoping each time that his next leap will be the leap home''. So you don't need to worry about a ''standard plot'', as it works more like this: ''Pop" the characters are in an open field watching a goblin war machine decimate a dwarven army...and they must stop the machine. As soon as they do ''Pop'', they are now on a galleon in the Dark Sea and they must....

[Luminestra]

I recently had an issue very similar to this. The best advice I got was "Talk to your players". So I did and things improved a lot. We got on the same page and talked about the expectations of the game. It honestly saved my game. I think you should do the same and talk to your players.

[Gamgee]

Your not someone who doesn't speak what they mean right? I had an infuriating player once who couldn't spit out a straightforward sentence and would expect us to always find out what he meant. Absolutely annoying. So if that's your meaning of communication I suggest straight up having a talk with them.

If your not one of those "communicators" then ignore all of this.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Don't make it so they have to pick plot hooks, make the plot hooks pick them.
Then it wouldn't be a sandbox game.


But maybe you have not tried the right kind of treasure.
Well, they killed someone for a treasure chest with almost 3,000 gold's worth of gems, jewellery and coins in it. Then someone took it of them while they were off doing a quest for him (a quest that they abandoned). So they knew who did it but just left town instead of chasing after him to find out, at the very least, why he took it, let alone getting it back.


I think you should do the same and talk to your players.
As I said above, I have. I'll reiterate by adding "a lot."


Your not someone who doesn't speak what they mean right?
No, if anything I have the opposite problem. I tend to say what I'm thinking without a filter at all :smallbiggrin: It's gotten me into a lot of trouble. It's actually kinda sad that honesty and forthrightness are punished in favour of lies and deceit :smallfrown:

[Kalmageddon]

The DM is also a player. He needs to have fun as well.
You are not having fun, so I'd suggest finding another group.
It's obvious from a lot of replies that people think of the DM as the one that should compromise and meet expectations but this is only true when the DM is capable of enjoying the game regardless. Beside, the players should try to accomodate the DM as well and all of this should be discussed before starting the campaign, so that everyone is on the same page.

[Fri]

If you've talked to them, but no avail, and they enjoy murderhoboing, but you want a story, here's a plot idea.

Have a mysterious group of assassin/mercs keep attacking them all the time. Because something they did/something they looted. Maybe someone they killed is an important person's son/a cult's chosen one. Maybe a seemingly normal-looking sword they looted is an important artifact. Maybe a dungeon they once looted is an important thingamajigger and the thingamajigger transferred to them, and now they have to be killed so the thingamajigger can be released to open the gate for the unnamed dweller of beyond. Make it obvious that the one keep attacking them is part of the same group.

Hopefully, sooner or later they'll get curious and ask around who are these guys/where did they came from. If they got bored and wander around again, no matter. The assassins/mercs keep attacking them anyway. So either they follow the plothook (of searching this cult), or they don't, and you can keep doing the plot, which is having assassins attacking them. Assassins attacking them is the plot for you. Win-win, in my opinion!

[FlumphPaladin]

Sometimes you just gotta be harsh. Nothing personal against the oysters.

Clearly, the only option is to send the Walrus and the Carpenter (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Walrus_and_the_Carpenter) at your little oysters and let nature take its course!

[zinycor]

Then it wouldn't be a sandbox game.

Of course it would, after all in the world things happen, sometimes towns get attacked by evil dragons (or whatever monster fits your world), your players just happened to be there, and they have to deal with this situation.

[Segev]

You say you've been "beyond blunt" with them.

I assume, therefore, you've tried something like this:

When they perform a cold-blooded, brutally Evil act, pause the game and tell them, "Wait, this is a horribly, awfully capital-E Evil act. Are you sure you want to do this? Why would your Good-aligned characters behave this way? What is your goal?"

When they abandon a plot hook, pause the game and say, "Guys, you realize that there is nothing at all that way. The plot hook is this: [outline it in clear OOC terms]; why are you going [place] and [doing whatever they're doing that's unrelated to pursuing the plot]?"

When you do this, what is their response?

If the OP could elaborate with how his players react to this level of bluntness - specifically, what they say and do and give as reasons for their actions, IC and OOC - it might help.

Right now, I'm not understanding how the players are running off at random when faced with these questions. I can imagine ways, but they all come off making the players sound very, very bad, whether via stupidity or malice. And I doubt there really is either, so I'm not able to figure out what's really going on here.

Please, therefore, give some indication of what their replies are when you pause the game at a seemingly-random decision that pulls them away from the plot hooks and ask them why they're doing this and why they won't follow the plot hook.

[Shadowsend]

If you want truly Sandbox, I recommend taking a break and dropping into a plane similar to Ysgard.

All Murderhobo all the time, and everyone wakes up the next day ready to do it again. Ysgard allows you to Murderhobo them!

[martixy]

Figure out what makes them tick in battle.

Escalate.

It is not a DMs job to be neutral. He's part of the world too. He is the world.

If you want your players to RP you need to stop DMing from the sidelines. You need to push their buttons.
Make the world respond in a way they cannot ignore.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Then it wouldn't be a sandbox game.

Well, do you want a sandbox or an advancing story? It's possible to do both, but it takes either initiative your players plainly dont have or a GM who's just willing to cause things to happen independent of the PCs.

[nedz]

Then it wouldn't be a sandbox game.

That's the first time you mentioned this — though I did suspect it.

Not all players can do the sandbox thing, at least in so far as following plot hooks; though maybe you just haven't being using the right kind of plot-hook. You need hooks which they can't resist biting — which is a player specific thing.

It helps, I've found, to have characters who have some motivation to drive them forward. You can't provide this, though having the PCs be members of an organisation help — Clerics and Temples are good for this.

At the end of the day though the game is about exploration, on several levels, and if they are happy trudging around exploring your setting then this should be fine — for them.

One thing you could try is creating an NPC, or organisation, who have their own agenda. These could then pursue their own plot-line which will collide with the party. Multiple, colliding, NPC driven plots could add the dimension you are looking for. You can only lead a horse to water though.

[goto124]

Maybe OP is going with sandbox because he(?) doesn't trust the players to follow any form of plot that's set up?

[zinycor]

BTW, As far as sandbox game goes, your game seems to be completely functional, I just don't think that it's what your table needs. From what you have described, your players have made some questionable decisions and are going to face the consequences eventually, which isn't a great idea. If they make bad decisions, they should face the consequences as soon as posible (on the very same session or the next), otherwise, you are losing tension in your game.


Personally, on sandbox games, and specially with people who aren't the best at tacking the innitiative, I would say that you need them to have them busy. Start on a big battle, on a dungeon that they MUST complete, not because of the rewards of it, but because if they don't, there would be consequences. Maybe they get forced to hide inside the dungeon, because of some monster wanting to kill them, and the way out is on the other side of the dungeon.

Don't worry about realism, in the case of the inquisitor investigating the cases, he should take as long as you want him to take, or rather, as long as it's needed for your players to care.

Next plothooks they don't resolve should have big consequences, if they don't deal with the orcs attacking the nearest town, the next session the whole country will be covered on bloodthirsty orcs, or the orcs will be able to summon a great demon, who will start destroying nearest towns, if your players don't do something, they will die or be taken prisoners.

Once they are used to making decisions in game, and have goals on their own, then you can relax, and have them follow their own stories, meeting NPCs and caring about them. Until then, be the devil...