confusion about sublim chord spell progression

[Dysjong]

Okay, so i was having a talk with a friend (or heated discussion really!) about the sublim chord and it's spell progression.

According to him, with only 1 or 2 dips in that prestige class, that wouldnt allow, let us say, a bard to gain the higher lvls spells, sinds it has it's own spell progression list. He called it a simple loop hole and wouldnt follow the intention behind this prestige class.

In some ways, i could agree upon it, it does not make sense, that with just one or two dips, it unlocks a new spell list, while stil being able to build upon the bard, to the all mighty lvl 9 spells. Their has to be a reason for why you would continue to keep going on with this one, while at the same time, you sacrifice something to gain acces to this power. While i can agree that the caster level, will follow the rule that the prestige class says, about the stacking, thus stil keeping it intact with the char level, it doesnt add up, why with only so few lvls in this prestige class, is enouggh to obtain these powerful spells?

are we wrong in this? or is their any officel words, that can clarify this?

[Troacctid]

Why would you not gain access to its spells? That's like the whole point of the class. Obviously if you're a Sublime Chord 2 you'd get the spells normally allotted to a Sublime Chord 2. I mean, you wouldn't get the spells allotted to a Sublime Chord 10, if that's what you mean, unless you took more levels or advanced it with a different prestige class.

[Dysjong]

What i am refering to, is that i see many people, suggestion that with only level 2 dip in sublim chord, is enough to gain acces to the lvl 9 if you keep building upon the builds caster lvls. Thus at lvl 20, a lvl 10 bard/2 Sublim chord/8 Virtuso, would be able to cast the lvl 9 spells, a sublim chord has acces to. Hench the confusion, because that would defeat the intenion behind the prestige class and creat a inbalance, that is not intented.

[Rubik]

What i am refering to, is that i see many people, suggestion that with only level 2 dip in sublim chord, is enough to gain acces to the lvl 9 if you keep building upon the builds caster lvls. Thus at lvl 20, a lvl 10 bard/2 Sublim chord/8 Virtuso, would be able to cast the lvl 9 spells, a sublim chord has acces to. Hench the confusion, because that would defeat the intenion behind the prestige class and creat a inbalance, that is not intented.It's not just building up your caster level, but upon the sublime chord's spellcasting, using full-casting prestige classes to apply the "+1 caster level" to the SC's casting, rather than the bard base's (or wizard base's, or whatever it is you're using to qualify for sublime chord).

It does work, even if it probably wasn't intended.

Also, spellchecking and proofreading are your friends.

[A_S]

Why would using a PrC that advances another class' spellcasting to advance another class' spellcasting be unintended? That's exactly what PrC's that advance spellcasting are for.

Does your friend also think that Wizards who prestige out after level 5 shouldn't be able to cast high level Wizard spells?

[Dysjong]

It's not just building up your caster level, but upon the sublime chord's spellcasting, using full-casting prestige classes to apply the "+1 caster level" to the SC's casting, rather than the bard base's (or wizard base's, or whatever it is you're using to qualify for sublime chord).

It does work, even if it probably wasn't intended.

Also, spellchecking and proofreading are your friends.

So my friend would say no to it and would stick to the intention and imbalance it would cause. While i can accept it, he is stuck with his argument about it.

Are their any officiels that can back this up? Because i guess that is the only thing that would change his mind i guess. Dont get me wrong, we are good friends and discuss alot of builds options and that sort of things.

[Heliomance]

I... can't quite understand what you mean. Virtuoso advances spellcasting. Sublime Chord has spellcasting. You use Virtuoso to advance Sublime Chord's spellcasting. What is there to be confusing about that?

[A_S]

Just read the text of any class that advances spellcasting. It'll say something like, "you gain spells known, spells per day, and caster level as if you had gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you previously belonged." Sublime Chord is a spellcasting class to which you previously belonged. Thus, it works. The onus is on your friend to provide any evidence for why it wouldn't work, or even why we should think it's not intended.

Here's some more evidence that it is intended: Some classes, like Lyric Thaumaturge, specify that they only advance Bard casting. If other classes, like Virtuoso, were meant to have this restriction, why weren't they written that way?

[Dysjong]

Why would using a PrC that advances another class' spellcasting to advance another class' spellcasting be unintended? That's exactly what PrC's that advance spellcasting are for.

Does your friend also think that Wizards who prestige out after level 5 shouldn't be able to cast high level Wizard spells?

No, that works as it should. The confusion part, is that the sublim chord is a prestige class, not a class and it would not count when it comes to add another prestige classes to add a caster lvl to it, sinds it is not considered a core class, atleast that is what he has argued. It gets even more confusion, because, in some ways, i do see his point of view, that with only a few dips into it, you are allowed the spells it grants and a whole new spell list... See where it goes?

okay, so if i go 10 bard/ 2 sublim chord/ 8 bard, that would stil count as building upon the sublim chord? or would that leave me with a lvl 2 sublim spell list and lvl 18 bard?

[Segev]

I'm afraid I'm not quite following what is being argued here.

I will attempt to help by spelling out an example of what would work:

Let's say you took Bard 9/Ur-Priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9.

You would wind up with 10 effective levels of Sublime Chord casting from the stacking of Sublime Chord and Mystic Theurge, and you would wind up with 10 effective levels of Ur-Priest casting from the stacking of Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge.

[A_S]

okay, so if i go 10 bard/ 2 sublim chord/ 8 bard, that would stil count as building upon the sublim chord? or would that leave
What? No. That would get you 18th level Bard casting and 2nd level SC casting.

There's a difference between classes that provide their own casting (like Bard, SC, or Wizard) and classes that advance the casting of another class (like Virtuoso, Mystic Theurge, or Eldritch Knight). You can tell which is which by reading their class features.

The latter type can advance SC casting, subject to whatever restrictions are written into the class. The former type will only ever give you more of its own casting.

[Dysjong]

What? No. That would get you 18th level Bard casting and 2nd level SC casting.

There's a difference between classes that provide their own casting (like Bard, SC, or Wizard) and classes that advance the casting of another class (like Virtuoso, Mystic Theurge, or Eldritch Knight). You can tell which is which by reading their class features.

The latter type can advance SC casting, subject to whatever restrictions are written into the class. The former type will only ever give you more of its own casting.

And a sublim chord is a prestige class that provide it's own spell list. So If we go back to the 10 bard/2 SC/8 Virtuso, and using the virtuso to SC, that would lvl me with...caster lvl 10 bard, and caster lvl 19 SC?

[Segev]

And a sublim chord is a prestige class that provide it's own spell list. So If we go back to the 10 bard/2 SC/8 Virtuso, and using the virtuso to SC, that would lvl me with...caster lvl 10 bard, and caster lvl 19 SC?

I don't know if Virtuoso has 9/10 casting or 10/10 casting. If it only has 9/10 casting, you'd have Bard 10/SC 9. If it has 10/10 (that is, advances spellcasting at every level), you'd have Bard 10/SC 10.

You wouldn't have SC 19 in any event.

If you mean just what the numeric caster level is, you'd cast both Bard and SC spells as a caster of level 19 or 20 (depending on whether Virtuouso advances casting at all levels, or only for 9 of them).

[A_S]

And a sublim chord is a prestige class that provivdes it's own spell list. So If we go back to the 10 bard/2 SC/8 Virtuso, and using the virtuso to SC, that would lvl me with...caster lvl 10 bard, and caster lvl 19 SC?
You would cast spells as a level 10 Bard (from your Bard levels) and a level 10 Sublime Chord (2 from your SC levels, plus 8 from advancing it with all 8 levels you put into Virtuoso).

SC has some wonkiness with "caster level," which determines the strength of your spells, where it adds a bonus based on your levels in other spellcasting classes. Is that what's tripping you up?

[Dysjong]

You would cast spells as a level 10 Bard (from your Bard levels) and a level 10 Sublime Chord (2 from your SC levels, plus 8 from advancing it with all 8 levels you put into Virtuoso).

SC has some wonkiness with "caster level," which determines the strength of your spells, where it adds a bonus based on your levels in other spellcasting classes. Is that what's tripping you up?

nvm, you already answered my question about spell selection. Okay, i think i got it now. Thank you for your time and answers.

[WhamBamSam]

No, that works as it should. The confusion part, is that the sublim chord is a prestige class, not a class and it would not count when it comes to add another prestige classes to add a caster lvl to it, sinds it is not considered a core class, atleast that is what he has argued. It gets even more confusion, because, in some ways, i do see his point of view, that with only a few dips into it, you are allowed the spells it grants and a whole new spell list... See where it goes?A Prestige Class is a kind of class. Sublime Chord is a class, and as it has its own spellcasting progression, it is, specifically, a spellcasting class. Hence, PrCs that advance spellcasting progression for a spellcasting class (or arcane spellcasting class, as Sublime Chord spells are arcane) would be able to advance Sublime Chord's spellcasting feature, because said feature is only different from the spellcasting feature of a base class like a Bard or Wizard in terms of what you get at which level.

Whether or not a class is a 'core' class is even more meaningless. Duskblades, Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, Warmages, and Hexblades are all non-core. Are you/your friend really going to argue that arcane spellcasting PrCs shouldn't be able to advance their spellcasting?


okay, so if i go 10 bard/ 2 sublim chord/ 8 bard, that would stil count as building upon the sublim chord? or would that leave me with a lvl 2 sublim spell list and lvl 18 bard?It would leave you with 18 levels of Bard casting. Because Bard always progresses itself. Similarly, if there were a PrC that only advanced Bard casting, you couldn't advance Sublime Chord with that, because it and Bard have distinct spellcasting progressions. Virtuoso, however, advances any arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged prior to adding the Virtuoso level. As a Bard 10/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 1 going into Virtuoso 2, you have two different arcane spellcasting classes, Bard and Sublime Chord. You choose Sublime Chord, because its progression is better, and gain spellcasting advancement as if you'd gained a level of Sublime Chord.

If instead, you took a level of Bard, you would gain casting as if you'd taken a level of Bard, because that's what you did. "The first rule of Tautology Club is the first rule of Tautology Club." (https://xkcd.com/703/)

I'll also point out that this isn't actually particularly abusive, at least compared to taking more levels of Sublime Chord or compared to a Wizard PrCing out after level 5. You get slightly better class features, but you don't get spells any sooner. In the Virtuoso example your casting is actually delayed a level compared to taking more Sublime Chord.


You would cast spells as a level 10 Bard (from your Bard levels) and a level 10 Sublime Chord (2 from your SC levels, plus 8 from advancing it with all 8 levels you put into Virtuoso).

SC has some wonkiness with "caster level," which determines the strength of your spells, where it adds a bonus based on your levels in other spellcasting classes. Is that what's tripping you up?


Okay, i think i am starting to get the caster lvl on this setup. So what spells would it have acces to then? as a bard 10 and sc 10?Well, Bard 10, and Sublime Chord 9. Virtuoso 1 doesn't advance casting.

[Dysjong]

A Prestige Class is a kind of class. Sublime Chord is a class, and as it has its own spellcasting progression, it is, specifically, a spellcasting class. Hence, PrCs that advance spellcasting progression for a spellcasting class (or arcane spellcasting class, as Sublime Chord spells are arcane) would be able to advance Sublime Chord's spellcasting feature, because said feature is only different from the spellcasting feature of a base class like a Bard or Wizard in terms of what you get at which level.

Whether or not a class is a 'core' class is even more meaningless. Duskblades, Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, Warmages, and Hexblades are all non-core. Are you/your friend really going to argue that arcane spellcasting PrCs shouldn't be able to advance their spellcasting?

It would leave you with 18 levels of Bard casting. Because Bard always progresses itself. Similarly, if there were a PrC that only advanced Bard casting, you couldn't advance Sublime Chord with that, because it and Bard have distinct spellcasting progressions. Virtuoso, however, advances any arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged prior to adding the Virtuoso level. As a Bard 10/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 1 going into Virtuoso 2, you have two different arcane spellcasting classes, Bard and Sublime Chord. You choose Sublime Chord, because its progression is better, and gain spellcasting advancement as if you'd gained a level of Sublime Chord.

If instead, you took a level of Bard, you would gain casting as if you'd taken a level of Bard, because that's what you did. "The first rule of Tautology Club is the first rule of Tautology Club." (https://xkcd.com/703/)

I'll also point out that this isn't actually particularly abusive, at least compared to taking more levels of Sublime Chord or compared to a Wizard PrCing out after level 5. You get slightly better class features, but you don't get spells any sooner. In the Virtuoso example your casting is actually delayed a level compared to taking more Sublime Chord.



Well, Bard 10, and Sublime Chord 9. Virtuoso 1 doesn't advance casting.

Thank you for taking your time to help clearing up this confusion.

[A_S]

Well, Bard 10, and Sublime Chord 9. Virtuoso 1 doesn't advance casting.
Whoops, looking at the 3.0 version >.<

[WhamBamSam]

Thank you for taking your time to help clearing up this confusion.No problem. I didn't really say anything that everyone else wasn't already saying, but if it was a little easier to understand the way I put it, then I'm glad to have helped.

[Heliomance]

I'll also point out that this isn't actually particularly abusive, at least compared to taking more levels of Sublime Chord or compared to a Wizard PrCing out after level 5. You get slightly better class features, but you don't get spells any sooner. In the Virtuoso example your casting is actually delayed a level compared to taking more Sublime Chord.


That's why the standard progression is Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtusoso +8. Gets you 10/10 Sublime Chord casting and the Song of Arcane Might or whatever it's called.

[AvatarVecna]

As well as Savage Bard 7/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 8

[Pluto!]

Not entirely unrelated, just because the rules say something works doesn't mean that a specific combination was on designers' minds when they made it or that allowing a combination is actually good for the game.

You don't need a contract with WotC to make the rules you play by.

(This isn't a case where I'd change anything because frankly I thought staggered Virtuoso levels with Sublime Chord was a sweet interaction when I recognized it, and I don't think sub-Sorcerer spellcasting is the highest-priority ban out there, but I don't think you'd be wrong for adding a little clause to Sublime Chord outlawing that interaction).

[Hiro Quester]

To be fair, the official rule for Sublime Chord says that you can't take another prestige class after it. Once you are in, you are supposed to be locked in all the way to SC 10:



Bardic Lock:
Following the path of the Sublime Chord requires utter devotion, upon entering the class you may not exit from the class for the full ten levels until you've mastered the way of the Sublime Chord.

Most DMs don't make you stick with SC. Because other PRCs like virtuoso (I prefer Heartfire Fanner, though) have better non-casting (bardic music) features.

But the original intent, reflected in this clause of the SC class rules, seems to be that you don't advance bardic music so fast (half SC levels count towards advancing number of bardic music uses, etc). You get the full spellcasting to level 9 in return.

Using Virtuoso or other bard PRCs to advance SC casting and bardic music is a bit cheesy. But most DM let us get away with it. Mine did.

But a DM who wanted to, could use that clause to rule that no other PrC is allowed. You have to stick with Sublime Chord.

[WhamBamSam]

To be fair, the official rule for Sublime Chord says that you can't take another prestige class after it. Once you are in, you are supposed to be locked in all the way to SC 10:Citation needed. I'm looking at Complete Arcane right now, and there is nothing there to that effect.

[AvatarVecna]

Citation needed. I'm looking at Complete Arcane right now, and there is nothing there to that effect.

Seconded. I'm consulting both my physical and digital copies, and I don't see this rule anywhere.

[torrasque666]

Citation needed. I'm looking at Complete Arcane right now, and there is nothing there to that effect.
even on that one site there's nothing along those lines.

[Crake]

To be fair, the official rule for Sublime Chord says that you can't take another prestige class after it. Once you are in, you are supposed to be locked in all the way to SC 10:



Most DMs don't make you stick with SC. Because other PRCs like virtuoso (I prefer Heartfire Fanner, though) have better non-casting (bardic music) features.

But the original intent, reflected in this clause of the SC class rules, seems to be that you don't advance bardic music so fast (half SC levels count towards advancing number of bardic music uses, etc). You get the full spellcasting to level 9 in return.

Using Virtuoso or other bard PRCs to advance SC casting and bardic music is a bit cheesy. But most DM let us get away with it. Mine did.

But a DM who wanted to, could use that clause to rule that no other PrC is allowed. You have to stick with Sublime Chord.

I see no such ability or restriction in my copy of complete arcane.

Edit: He may be quoting off memory another bard PrC that has something like that, as it does sound familiar, but it's definitely not sublime chord.

[AvatarVecna]

Nothing in the errata either; I'm looking for any FAQ now, although I don't personally consider that a good source.

[Pluto!]

Check the book, not web references. There's one site I'm thinking of which copy-pastes Sublime Chord verbatim, but adds that restriction.

[Crake]

Check the book, not web references. There's one site I'm thinking of which copy-pastes Sublime Chord verbatim, but adds that restriction.

ah yes, I found that source too, now that you mention it. I just tend to look straight at the books, so I don't get people's unwarranted, and undisclaimed personal homebrews

[Chronos]

Personally, I would houserule that classes that progress spellcasting (or other features, like with Uncanny Trickster) from other classes only work on base classes, not prestige classes. Such a houserule would prevent Virtuoso or Mystic Theurge from advancing Sublime Chord. But that is a houserule, not a standard rule.

The real problem with the Sublime Virtuoso build is that it gives you powerful extras without taking anything away. A straight Sublime Chord build is a bard who gives up some skills and bardic music in exchange for casting. You can debate whether the trade is a good one, but it is at least a trade. Combining it with Virtuoso, though, and you now have very nearly the same skills, better bardic music overall, and better casting. It makes the straight bard completely obsolete.

[Heliomance]

Personally, I would houserule that classes that progress spellcasting (or other features, like with Uncanny Trickster) from other classes only work on base classes, not prestige classes. Such a houserule would prevent Virtuoso or Mystic Theurge from advancing Sublime Chord. But that is a houserule, not a standard rule.

The real problem with the Sublime Virtuoso build is that it gives you powerful extras without taking anything away. A straight Sublime Chord build is a bard who gives up some skills and bardic music in exchange for casting. You can debate whether the trade is a good one, but it is at least a trade. Combining it with Virtuoso, though, and you now have very nearly the same skills, better bardic music overall, and better casting. It makes the straight bard completely obsolete.

Prestige classes make basically every class obsolete. Druid is about the only class I ever see anyone recommending to take to 20, certainly in core. Some of the newer subsystems get the same recommendation - ToB, Incarnum, Binding - but that's mostly becaue they don't have many good PrCs available.

[AvatarVecna]

Personally, I would houserule that classes that progress spellcasting (or other features, like with Uncanny Trickster) from other classes only work on base classes, not prestige classes. Such a houserule would prevent Virtuoso or Mystic Theurge from advancing Sublime Chord. But that is a houserule, not a standard rule.

The real problem with the Sublime Virtuoso build is that it gives you powerful extras without taking anything away. A straight Sublime Chord build is a bard who gives up some skills and bardic music in exchange for casting. You can debate whether the trade is a good one, but it is at least a trade. Combining it with Virtuoso, though, and you now have very nearly the same skills, better bardic music overall, and better casting. It makes the straight bard completely obsolete.

A straight Sublime Chord gets 9th lvl spells at lvl 19. It's like being a sorcerer, but being a level slower than other sorcerers for your entire career in exchange for some mediocre skills and bardic performance stuff. And that's not even taking into account that sorcerers are already a level behind other full casters.

My point is that Sublime Chord is good, but it's hardly the most amazing thing ever.

[nedz]

Well it takes your Bard from T3 to T2, and T2 isn't exactly shabby. Now it's not T1 or so, but it's better than most classes.

[AvatarVecna]

Oh definitely, but it's not such uber leet hax that it needs to be nerfed.

[nedz]

Well no, except in a low tier game of course — though I don't think that was the OP's question.

Maybe we should point them at the Tier system (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658) ?