Help with a somewhat nova build..

[EastbySoutheast]

Hi playground,
So I don't consider myself an optimiser my I like to make interesting and flavourful builds which are effective in combat. The campaign I'm playing in my character has retired cause his ego got in the way to much so his party has mutinied against him (I still left as a character choice and there's no hard feelings so all is well). This means I get to roll a new character.
The campaign is set to run until the players are around level 15 so I want the build to progress this whole time and be interesting throughout with it becoming highly effective into the later levels. My character will be joining at level 6

Anyway the build as I would be joining is as follows:
Rogue 3{assassin}/Warlock 2/ Fighter 1

The plan is to continue fighter progressions until at least 7th level of eldritch Knight (possibly house ruled to use charisma for casting and only pick from sorcerer spell list) so that the ability to use a cantrip and then a weapon attack as a bonus action will mean I can use eldritch blast and then loose an arrow and gain sneak attack. All of this being used with hex and actionsurge-ing during surprise rounds for automatic critical

My question is does anyone have better ideas for how I should go about this build or if it's worth doing at all?
Any comments/criticisms are appreciated

[dropbear8mybaby]

That build would lose out on an ASI (Ability Score Improvement, or feats). ASI's are class-level based, not character-level based. Not only that, but since you'd then be levelling only as a fighter, you wouldn't get an ASI for another three levels. Short of using the human variant, that means no feat until 9th character level whilst other players will have had two (or three if human variant) feats by then.

Your concept seems extremely muddied and the only clear indication you've given is that you want it to be burst-damage oriented. If that's the only consideration, then a single-class paladin is by far the better option.

[Ralanr]

What about monk 18/paladin 2? Smite with your punches.

[Paeleus]

What about monk 18/paladin 2? Smite with your punches.

AFB right now, but doesn't Smite require a weapon attack? Or is there something in the monk class that makes your unarmed strikes weapons?

[ZenBear]

It's a very interesting build, that's for sure. Your SA won't be anything special and needing a high score in both Dex and Cha while delaying ASIs and losing one entirely by endgame means your attacks will be just under par for your entire career. Still, it should be fun to play.

I suggest VHuman point buy 16 Dex/Cha, 11 Con, 10 Str/Int/Wis with Sharpshooter. Pump Dex to 20 first, then Cha.

[Kane0]

I can see what youre setting up here.
I suggest all the fighter levels you need first (7 or 8 i cant remember) then warlock 2 to trick out your eb for use with war magic then the rest as rogue for the sneak attack.
Start as regular fighter, switch to archer with eb and sneak as you progress. Works pretty well.

Edit: focus dex and con, use your spell slots for things like shield and other utioity stuff that doesnt require a high casting stat. Hex also fits well here.
Use a finesse weapon and shield until you are ready to switch to archery

[Ralanr]

AFB right now, but doesn't Smite require a weapon attack? Or is there something in the monk class that makes your unarmed strikes weapons?

AFB so no idea.

[Citan]

What about monk 18/paladin 2? Smite with your punches.


AFB right now, but doesn't Smite require a weapon attack? Or is there something in the monk class that makes your unarmed strikes weapons?

Nop, you can smite since Unarmed Strikes are considered weapon attacks. Monk/Pally is one of my build actually.

Problem with Ralanr's proposition is that Paladin is useless here, since you have only 2 lvl1 slots. A decent smiting capability requires at least caster lvl 6 imo, so a decent build of Smiting would be Paladin 12 / Monk 8: low US dice is compensated by Divine Smite but even so it would be a half-assed build.
A good smiting Monk would be Paladin 2 / Cleric or Druid 6 / Monk 12 but you still lose many great features of Monk so good only for people who really like the idea of channeling divine energy to their fists.

Basically, Monk is a pain to combine with any spellcasting-related ability since Ki points and spell slots are totally unrelated.
With that said, if a player came to me with such a concept, maybe I'd create a specific Way instead with a few additional Ki points, a God domain, and allow him to either pour Ki points as damage on attacks or mimic Domain spells from Cleric. Something like...

Way of the Gods
During your like as a Monk, you spent countless hours praying to a God and acting in such a manner that you reflect the values of your religion.

Divine Energy
Starting when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, select one domain related to your deity: Knowledge, Life, Light, Nature, Tempest, Trickery, or War. Each domain is detailed at the end of the class description, and each one provides examples of gods associated with it. When you attain levels 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11, you learn the spells of lvl 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 respectively that are associated to the domain. You can replicate these spells by consuming your Ki, with a cost of 1+spell level.
You can never cast a spell at a higher level than the level of the highest spell you know.

Divine Inspiration
At level 6, you can now grasp the awareness of your God's existence.
Choose one of the Cleric's Channel Divinity option associated to your Domain. You can now use it 1 time between long rests (2 times when you get lvl 18).
You also gain the benefits associated with your Domain that 1st level Cleric gets.

Divine Representant
At lvl 11, choose one of the following options.
1) Host of God. You become more sensitive to your God's presence and he grants in return a surge of energy by keeping a small part of himself in your own body. You gain 1 bonus Ki point at lvl 11, 13, 15, 17, 20. These points will behave as normal Ki points and regenerate on short rest as usual, as long as you behave in a way that pleases your God. Should you lose your way, you will suffer a permanent reduction to your Ki pool amounting to twice your amount of bonus Ki points. This reduction will stand until you redeemed yourself through a quest or extraordinary feat.
2) God's Celebration.Choose one of the two 1st-level spells you know. You can know cast it once per short-rest as a level 1 spell without consuming Ki.
3) God's Fist of Redemption. Your God allows you to channel its divine energy through your fists. When making an Unarmed Strike, you can choose to consume Ki points to deal additional damage, 1d8 damage per Ki point. You can never consume more Ki points on a single strike than your Monk level divided by 4, rounded down. The nature of this damage is the same one as the Cleric's lvl 8 Divine Strike (Radiant for Domains which don't grant Divine Strike).

----- Example 1 -----
I'm a pure Monk. On level 3, I choose the Light Domain spell. I automatically learn Burning Hands and Faerie Fire, which I can cast as lvl 1 spells only.
On lvl 6, I gain the "Bonus Light Cantrip" and "Warding Flare" abilities and I learn the Radiance of the Dawn CD.
On lvl 9, I just learned the 4th level spells Guardian of Faith, Wall of Fire. I can now cast it by consuming 1+4 Ki points. I could also cast Burning hands as a 4th level spell.
On lvl 11, I choose the Fists of Redemption ability. I can now pour up to 2 ki points per Unarmed Strike to deal additional radiant damage.

----- Example 2 -----
I choose the Nature domain.
On level 6 I decide to learn Shillelagh cantrip and get proficient in Nature. I also learn the Charm Animals and Plants ability.
On level 11 I choose the Fists of Redemption ability. I'll be able to imbue my Unarmed Strikes with fire/cold/lightning/thunder damage.

NOTES: Sorry this is a bit complex to read since I refer constantly to Cleric class. Although descriptions and names are lacking. This is something made up on the fly as an example of homebrew "divine" Monk with either more Ki or Smiting options.
Also, I though first of setting spellcasting cost as spell level, but after thoughts kept the balance from Way of the Elements.
Anyways, this is a very rough draft so probably balance problems. :)


EDIT: Easiest spellcaster to dip in as Monk is cleric. Strong benefits from lvl 1, same stat, and quick access to a few spells to occupy concentration slot and are real valuable for a Monk (such as Shield of Faith or Bless). Druid has more useful cantrips for a Monk (Shillelagh, Thorn Whip) so comes closes but only Faerie Fire and Longstrider are directly useful to a Monk.

[EastbySoutheast]

To Zenbear:
The way that this campaign is run we roll 4d6 for ability scores. So I know I have an 18 and a 16 to assign. I was thinking Lightfoot halfling and then putting the 16 in dex with racial giving me 18 and then 18 in Cha with racial being a 19. Variant Human is always good but I wanted more rogue like elements to the character.

Kane:
See fighter sounds good and I can see the damage potential of EB only becoming online in 11th level when you get the third blast which would out do the fighters archery.
Although out of interest why not start with Rogue for this skills, reflex saves and all that jazz then gain full weapon proficiencys by multiclassing into fighter?

[numerek]

Start 2 warlock / 4 eldritch knight. you want to hit the 7 / 2 eldritch knight warlock as soon as you can. The warlock is because eldritch knights are the lowest damage fighters at low levels since there lower levels spells don't help damage.

With the way you have it you won't be getting rogue sneak attack til level 10 since eldritch blast + hex does more damage and then you would switch back to eldritch blast at 11th level when you get 3rd blast.

Assuming 16 dexterity
6th level crossbow 3 rogue / 2 warlock / 1 fighter
d10+3d6+3=19
if you want to start your career melee dual wield short swords
6d6+3=24 if you can have hex and attack with your offhand on the same turn, turns where you need to retarget hex would be 4d6+3=17
or greatsword assuming you have a 16 in strength
5d6+3=20.5
or
This is the same as long as you start with 2 warlock except without a level 4 in a class you don't get ASI
2d10+2d6+6=26(28 if you put your ability score increase into charisma)

9th level 2 warlock / 7 eldritch knight
3d10+3d6+2*charisma+dexterity~36-40

10th level 3 rogue / 2 warlock / 5 eldritch knight longbow
2d8+4d6+2*dexterity~29-32
or dual shortswords
8d6+2*dexterity=34 again hex and offhand attack compete for bonus action
or greatsword again assuming 16 strength
8d6+2*strength=34

10th level 2 warlock / 7 eldritch knight / 1 rogue
same as 9th +d6~39.5-43.5

11th level 3 rogue / 2 warlock / 6 eldritch knight
3d10+5d6+3*charisma~43-49

11th level 2 warlock / 7 eldritch knight / 2 rogue
4d10+5d6+3*charisma+dexterity~51.5-57.5

Yes this analysis ignores the assassinate ability but I don't really want to try to calculate the odds of you being able to attack an enemy before they act which I'm ignoring to hit anyways but you will have to trust me that +2 to hit won't make up the damage differences I'm talking about except on very high 20+ ac. Also it is completely up to the dm as to how many times you can surprise your enemy. Starting with 2 warlock / 4 eldritch knight you will also have the wizard spells to help offset any advantage the assassinate ability may have given.

[Citan]

Anyway the build as I would be joining is as follows:
Rogue 3{assassin}/Warlock 2/ Fighter 1

The plan is to continue fighter progressions until at least 7th level of eldritch Knight (possibly house ruled to use charisma for casting and only pick from sorcerer spell list) so that the ability to use a cantrip and then a weapon attack as a bonus action will mean I can use eldritch blast and then loose an arrow and gain sneak attack. All of this being used with hex and actionsurge-ing during surprise rounds for automatic critical

My question is does anyone have better ideas for how I should go about this build or if it's worth doing at all?
Any comments/criticisms are appreciated
Hi! Interesting idea! :)
So you'll be a DEX/CHA build. A few considerations.
1) It can be better indeed if you DM houserule a change so you use CHA for spellcasting. It's not strictly necessary though. If you plan on using Eldricht Blast as your main spell attack, you can pick up mainly utilities from abjuration school such as Shield which don't rely on your casting stat for efficiency.

2) If you plan on getting character up to 15, and get Eldricht Knight 7, it means you still have three levels undecided.
Going EK 10 would be nice if you had nice "saving throws" spells. But it seems it will be difficult to do so (unless your DM rules that you pick up Sorcerer spells, in which case it's a very good option).
I'd suggest then to get at least Warlock 3 for either Chain pact (familiar is very good with a Rogue) or Tome pact (for additional good cantrips) and lvl 2 spells (Hold Person?).
I'd personnally go up to Warlock 5 for additional Invocation (especially good if you take Tome pact, you can learn ritual spells and still get Agonizing+Repelling EB) and lvl3 spell slots that you can use with any learnt spell.

So, I'd suggest that after you join campaign as Assassin 3 / Warlock 2 / Fighter 1...
a) If DM houserules that EK = Sorcerer, get Fighter up to 10.
b) Otherwise, immediately get Warlock 3rd, then Fighter up to 7 then whatever you want.

By the way, if you plan on getting Warlock to 5, I suggest that your DM rewards your dedication by houseruling that for spells you know that are on both Wizard and Warlock lists, you can use either CHA or INT once you are at least Warlock 4 and EK 4. Seems a fair manner to me to mitigate the MADness of your concept while sticking the closest to the rules. :)

3) I guess you planned on taking only Warlock 2 for Hex and Eldricht Blast. Frankly, only two levels if not the best choice, unless DM rules CHA-based Eldricht Knight because you get MADness between INT and CHA. Hex and Eldricht Blast are very good, but a Assassin 3 / Fighter 12 only loses out the CHA-mod on cantrip damage and there are many good spells to use for Concentration.
Hence my recommendation to get Warlock to 5 and use EK spells for utility mainly.

[ZenBear]

Way of the Gods
During your like as a Monk, you spent countless hours praying to a God and acting in such a manner that you reflect the values of your religion.

Divine Energy
Starting when you choose this tradition at 3rd level, select one domain related to your deity: Knowledge, Life, Light, Nature, Tempest, Trickery, or War. Each domain is detailed at the end of the class description, and each one provides examples of gods associated with it. When you attain levels 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11, you learn the spells of lvl 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 respectively that are associated to the domain. You can replicate these spells by consuming your Ki, with a cost of 1+spell level.
You can never cast a spell at a higher level than the level of the highest spell you know.

Divine Inspiration
At level 6, you can now grasp the awareness of your God's existence.
Choose one of the Cleric's Channel Divinity option associated to your Domain. You can now use it 1 time between long rests (2 times when you get lvl 18).
You also gain the benefits associated with your Domain that 1st level Cleric gets.

Divine Representant
At lvl 11, choose one of the following options.
1) Host of God. You become more sensitive to your God's presence and he grants in return a surge of energy by keeping a small part of himself in your own body. You gain 1 bonus Ki point at lvl 11, 13, 15, 17, 20. These points will behave as normal Ki points and regenerate on short rest as usual, as long as you behave in a way that pleases your God. Should you lose your way, you will suffer a permanent reduction to your Ki pool amounting to twice your amount of bonus Ki points. This reduction will stand until you redeemed yourself through a quest or extraordinary feat.
2) God's Celebration.Choose one of the two 1st-level spells you know. You can know cast it once per short-rest as a level 1 spell without consuming Ki.
3) God's Fist of Redemption. Your God allows you to channel its divine energy through your fists. When making an Unarmed Strike, you can choose to consume Ki points to deal additional damage, 1d8 damage per Ki point. You can never consume more Ki points on a single strike than your Monk level divided by 4, rounded down. The nature of this damage is the same one as the Cleric's lvl 8 Divine Strike (Radiant for Domains which don't grant Divine Strike).

----- Example 1 -----
I'm a pure Monk. On level 3, I choose the Light Domain spell. I automatically learn Burning Hands and Faerie Fire, which I can cast as lvl 1 spells only.
On lvl 6, I gain the "Bonus Light Cantrip" and "Warding Flare" abilities and I learn the Radiance of the Dawn CD.
On lvl 9, I just learned the 4th level spells Guardian of Faith, Wall of Fire. I can now cast it by consuming 1+4 Ki points. I could also cast Burning hands as a 4th level spell.
On lvl 11, I choose the Fists of Redemption ability. I can now pour up to 2 ki points per Unarmed Strike to deal additional radiant damage.

----- Example 2 -----
I choose the Nature domain.
On level 6 I decide to learn Shillelagh cantrip and get proficient in Nature. I also learn the Charm Animals and Plants ability.
On level 11 I choose the Fists of Redemption ability. I'll be able to imbue my Unarmed Strikes with fire/cold/lightning/thunder damage.

NOTES: Sorry this is a bit complex to read since I refer constantly to Cleric class. Although descriptions and names are lacking. This is something made up on the fly as an example of homebrew "divine" Monk with either more Ki or Smiting options.
Also, I though first of setting spellcasting cost as spell level, but after thoughts kept the balance from Way of the Elements.
Anyways, this is a very rough draft so probably balance problems. :)


This is cool! You should post this on the homebrew forum. I could give it some critiques and suggestions.

[Citan]

This is cool! You should post this on the homebrew forum. I could give it some critiques and suggestions.
Done! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?434209-Monk-Archetype-Way-of-the-Gods&p=19675142#post19675142)
Thanks for reading it, it seems most people didn't see it.
I added personal notes about the choices in the OP of the new thread and altered a few things.
Waiting for your suggestions. :)

[Kane0]

Kane:
See fighter sounds good and I can see the damage potential of EB only becoming online in 11th level when you get the third blast which would out do the fighters archery.
Although out of interest why not start with Rogue for this skills, reflex saves and all that jazz then gain full weapon proficiencys by multiclassing into fighter?

You could do that quite easily, but you have to weigh that up.

Using the level spread: Rogue 1, Fighter 7, Warlock 2, Rogue 10
At level 4 you will have no ASIs (variant human is at its best here, but if you can be patient then halfling or anything else that you find entertaining still works fine), by level 8 you will be even again thanks to the fighters bonus ASI at 6th. You again fall behind by 12 because of fighter 7th and warlock 2 but after that you even out thanks to the rogue bonus at 10, though thats after the expected level 15.

So you give up con saves in favor of dex saves (which you are already good at, being a Dex based character) and weapon/armor proficiencies you probably wont use in favor of skills. Your extra attack will suffer by a level (a con at low levels before you get your war magic + EB ready).

For ability scores i'd advise Dex as highest, then Con 14-16 and Cha 14-16, cha being last priority since you won't be actually needing it beyond skills until level 10 or so, where it adds to your EB damage.

For your second invocation (the first is agonizing blast no question) I'd advise mask of many faces or another flavorful cantrip over another AB enhancement. 120' is plenty range and pushback is nice but can get gimmicky and not as fun as something like being a different person each day. For pact i'd choose great old one for the telepathy, it's so much fun especially with Rogue skills.

[EastbySoutheast]

Thanks for all of the help guys and I'm enjoying all of the slightly different takes on the same idea.

There are a couple of house rules and situational things at the moment I should probably make you aware of as it may change your comments somewhat.

Houserule on crits: when you crit you automatically deal Max damage and then roll all damage dice again. For example your normal damage roll is 1d6+2 for your damage roll on a crit you would do 1d6+8. (Modifiers don't get doubled)

The party is made up of 6 people already with myself being a 7th so I don't need to be overly amazing in anyway as the DM barely scales encounter's. So as long as this guy is fun to play then I'm happy with that.

So I've built up my character concept a little more now and decided that he's going to be a very charismatic sneaky halfling pirate. Who is a good guy with a bad reputation as he's energetic about getting to places and doing whatever idea he comes up with as soon as possible meaning he leaves taverns without paying, breaks things in his hurry to get anywhere and generally causes mayhem due to his chaotic manner.

For ability score rolls I've got 18, 16, 16, 14, 11, 9. So I should be set for almost any build I want.

Now this bit is going to upset you but the level 6 base will be Rogue 1/Warlock 2/ Fighter 3
That way I have sneak attack if I need it, archery prowess, good skill selection including expertise in (perception &stealth), EB with agonising blast, Devils Sight as the other invocation and a few spells to boot. With an ASI coming in next level.

Plan for combat will mainly be to stand at the back with a shield and throw eldritch blasts out with my other hand or even load it up with a handcross bow just for kicks

[Citan]

So I've built up my character concept a little more now and decided that he's going to be a very charismatic sneaky halfling pirate. Who is a good guy with a bad reputation as he's energetic about getting to places and doing whatever idea he comes up with as soon as possible meaning he leaves taverns without paying, breaks things in his hurry to get anywhere and generally causes mayhem due to his chaotic manner.

For ability score rolls I've got 18, 16, 16, 14, 11, 9. So I should be set for almost any build I want.

Now this bit is going to upset you but the level 6 base will be Rogue 1/Warlock 2/ Fighter 3
That way I have sneak attack if I need it, archery prowess, good skill selection including expertise in (perception &stealth), EB with agonising blast, Devils Sight as the other invocation and a few spells to boot. With an ASI coming in next level.

Plan for combat will mainly be to stand at the back with a shield and throw eldritch blasts out with my other hand or even load it up with a handcross bow just for kicks
I dont think this is going to upset anyone, it's a nice start. :)
You rolled pretty good stats anyways so with DEX 16 / CHA 18 (since you plan on spamming EB) / CON 16 you should be set up for some time. :) Have fun!

[djreynolds]

In the guide section is the Death Dealers Hand Book under the rogue section. I've used it a lot for ideas and this is your best bet. The key it seems is adding three assassin and three battlemaster. You'll now have auto-crit and action surge and precision. These can be added to any other chassis for that big damage dealing shot, that should hit. In there is warlock build that is quite nasty combatant. Good luck.

[PoeticDwarf]

AFB right now, but doesn't Smite require a weapon attack? Or is there something in the monk class that makes your unarmed strikes weapons?

My question is, you just have two slots, not many smites.

[numerek]

Thanks for all of the help guys and I'm enjoying all of the slightly different takes on the same idea.

There are a couple of house rules and situational things at the moment I should probably make you aware of as it may change your comments somewhat.

Houserule on crits: when you crit you automatically deal Max damage and then roll all damage dice again. For example your normal damage roll is 1d6+2 for your damage roll on a crit you would do 1d6+8. (Modifiers don't get doubled)

The party is made up of 6 people already with myself being a 7th so I don't need to be overly amazing in anyway as the DM barely scales encounter's. So as long as this guy is fun to play then I'm happy with that.

So I've built up my character concept a little more now and decided that he's going to be a very charismatic sneaky halfling pirate. Who is a good guy with a bad reputation as he's energetic about getting to places and doing whatever idea he comes up with as soon as possible meaning he leaves taverns without paying, breaks things in his hurry to get anywhere and generally causes mayhem due to his chaotic manner.

For ability score rolls I've got 18, 16, 16, 14, 11, 9. So I should be set for almost any build I want.

Now this bit is going to upset you but the level 6 base will be Rogue 1/Warlock 2/ Fighter 3
That way I have sneak attack if I need it, archery prowess, good skill selection including expertise in (perception &stealth), EB with agonising blast, Devils Sight as the other invocation and a few spells to boot. With an ASI coming in next level.

Plan for combat will mainly be to stand at the back with a shield and throw eldritch blasts out with my other hand or even load it up with a handcross bow just for kicks

I think you made a great choice, I am never upset with people that play the character they want to play. Obviously I didn't quite understand the goals you were after.