So what's with the my little pony? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Oberon Kenobi

2015-08-14, 11:48 AM

Unless you're asking about roleplaying applications specifically, you'd probably get more answers over in the Media subforum.

Why don't you just watch a bit and find out?I see what you did there. :smalltongue:

As for the putting-ponies-in-weird-settings thing, I think that just comes down to general human nature. If you like a thing, there's a certain desire to explore it further, and one way of doing that is to twist it into a different shape and see what happens. See also: fanfiction.

Ponies and grimdark settings in particular seem to go well together because the show is about positive social bonds, personal strength and general Blue Lantern-ness. Dropping characters with that kind of attitude into a setting like Warhammr or Fallout is a way of shining a light in a dark place, which puts a different spin on those settings the same as it does for the character types.

Also, as mentioned, the art style of the show is pretty top-notch, and some people just like to put ponies into odd settings because the mashup creates a unique aesthetic. :smallcool:

Ninja_Prawn

2015-08-14, 12:03 PM

Agree with the above comments about the general qualities of the show.

What I would add: the setting feels like an rpg because...

Unicorn magic seems to follow some rpg conventions. Example: Twilight Sparkle casts something that looks remarkably like Antipathy/Sympathy in Lesson Zero.
The show includes monsters that echo heroic fantasy monsters. Dragons have treasure hoards. Wild bears are dangerous. Wendigos are an absolute classic.
The show's protagonists make heavy use of tropes, so they end up looking like they have 'classes'. The six of them look a lot like an adventuring party. And they all have magic items that they break out when the going gets tough.
Every season ends with a boss fight.
Princess Celestia is a classic NPC questgiver.

And probably lots of other reasons I can't think of on the train.

Edit:

Twilight totally takes a prestige class in Magical Mystery Cure.
The intro to Magic Duel is clearly inspired by D&D.
Crafting totally seems like an afterthought that only NPCs (like Zecora) have time for. Rarity has ranks in tailoring, but she only uses them occasionally and none of the other protagonists have a proper job.

AZGrowler

2015-08-14, 12:13 PM

Nerd-o-rama

2015-08-14, 02:01 PM

It's a popular piece of fantasy pop culture. That's all that's really required.

Brookshw

2015-08-14, 02:15 PM

There's a webcomic series, Friendship is Dragons (friendshipisdragons.thecomicseries.com/), that presents the shows as being a tabletop session. I haven't been keeping up with it lately, but it was pretty funny for a while.

Cool, I'll add it to the queue!

Why don't you just watch a bit and find out?:smallconfused:

Eh, time constraints and a number of things already on the docket. Sounds interesting though with the MGS references and such.

@ Oberon, I'm certainly curious why its become used for so many rpg's. A number of illustrative answers have been given on that matter and are certainly much appreciated.

BWR

2015-08-14, 04:33 PM

goto124

2015-08-14, 08:25 PM

There's a webcomic series, Friendship is Dragons (friendshipisdragons.thecomicseries.com/), that presents the shows as being a tabletop session. I haven't been keeping up with it lately, but it was pretty funny for a while.

DigoDragon (active forum member) draws a webcomic?!

-furiously bookmarks-

He's currently in a Fallout Equestria game on these forums, though I'm not sure how the MLP comes into play. IIRC, the PCs have some sort of aspects such as Care, Love, etc?

Also, BWR's argument probably fits best in a thread in the Media section.

Hiro Protagonest

2015-08-14, 09:08 PM

I think it is... okay. Plot is overrated and the fanbase reads into the characters too much, but it isn't cringeworthy and has subtle references.

When I asked about it in the long-running thread, the fans said "you can skip most of Season 1". And I didn't even get to Season 2. So yeah.

Ralanr

2015-08-14, 11:46 PM

Gracht Grabmaw

2015-08-15, 02:25 AM

Oberon Kenobi

2015-08-15, 03:28 AM

I would call it a very respectably above average cartoon regardless of intended demographic. But hey, differing opinions, I can respect that. :smallsmile:

Don't really respect the broad sweeping generalization that everybody started watching it ironically, though, as that assigns intent to people you've never met. I started watching it because a lot of the team had worked on Powerpuff Girls, which I'd felt was a pretty kickass episodic action comedy (I also later came to appreciate how self-aware it was; that holds true for MLP sometimes, too, though it's usually more sincere than lampshady).

Back on topic, I also felt the first couple of seasons were a little better, for another reason that I think speaks to the show getting the rp treatment so often: the villains were really solid. Nightmare Moon was a psychodrama for the whole party, playing off of their fears and insecurities; Discord was the consummate trickster and agent of chaos. And Chrysalis, that's the kind of villain you can build a campaign on: infiltrator, deceiver, tempter, and advocate for a people consigned to literal Hell for their... feeding requirements. Redcloak level stuff (or could have been, were she given more than two episodes to develop).

Sombra was lame, but eh, 3/4 ain't bad.

Ninja_Prawn

2015-08-15, 03:43 AM

I started watching it because a lot of the team had worked on Powerpuff Girls, which I'd felt was a pretty kickass episodic action comedy

That goes for me as well. Powerpuff Girls was one of my favourite shows when I was little. For some reason, Faust's work just resonates.

FabulousFizban

2015-08-15, 08:04 PM

google "new sincerity movement"

Oberon Kenobi

2015-08-16, 12:35 AM

The juxtaposition of the the new sincerity movement and the hipster glasses avatar made me chuckle more than it probably should have. :smalltongue:

PersonMan

2015-08-16, 07:03 AM

Time for the dissenting voice.
It's horribly overrated. The characters are annoying, the art is **** and the animation minimal, the humor is not very humorous, and the stories are bland and predictable and worst of all, boring. The songs can be decent.

To be fair, if I ask 'why is it so popular outside its target demographic and so often seen in RPGs/on the forums?' I'm only asking for people to list (regardless of whether they agree) the reasons it's popular. Whether the show is good or bad has nothing to do with the question, as it's posed.

Dienekes

2015-08-16, 11:30 AM

From what I've seen it's because generally optimistic and sincere works of fiction are in the minority these days and people seem to think its funny.

Personally I think it's cute. People just seem to confuse cute with funny. I don't see how or why but they do. Like when people chuckle at pictures of cat expressions or whatever else.

I gave it a try, watched the first two episodes and dropped it. It wasn't bad as far as I could tell, but it wasn't funny or particularly engaging.

But hey, fans are free to be fans. At least they have mostly stopped posting MLP clips into the middle of conversations that have absolutely jack all to do with MLP and have stopped referring to other forumites as pony-this or that ("everypony" was always the most annoying). And contain their fandom to their own thread and avatars.

Comet

2015-08-16, 11:56 AM

It's also worth noting that the snowballing enthusiasm for this show around the internet formed a bunch of communities that have been life defining for some people. I imagine a lot of people associate ponies more with that almost nostalgic feeling of acceptance and community than the show itself, which is why it's so easy for them to use these icons to explore parts of their life and favourite aesthetics that are quite separate from the themes of the world of the show.

Hence, lots of dramatic fantasy and science fiction with ponies thrown into the mix. Finding ponies gave these people an opportunity to explore their creativity in an empowering environment and so they include these characters in their creativity as a homage and totem to that safety.

Strigon

2015-08-16, 12:21 PM

I'm not sure this - an RPG subforum in a tabletop website - is the best place to ask, but given that you can find an answer to that question literally anywhere on the internet, I suppose it's not unreasonable.
Back on topic, though; the show is quite simply joyful. I can only assume the people who claim it's overrated just expected it to be something it wasn't. It's a delightful, generally feel-good show with simple characters. (not one-dimensional, but simple - you can get who they are from any single episode), with great music and art that fits well with the feel-good nature of the show.

JenBurdoo

2015-08-16, 01:43 PM

Well, one of the reasons it's popular on this forum is that it has quite a few similarities to DnD (which has even been referred to in the official comics). Look in the "playing" subforums and you'll see quite a few MLP games going on.

Here's the post that inspired the Friendship is Dragons webcomic: it describes the characters as members of a DnD party, and the first and seventh episodes as DnD adventures. It's no coincidence those also became the basis for the first arcs of the webcomic.

http://lurkingrhythmically.blogspot.com/2011/06/my-little-pony-friendship-is-magic-vis.html

I started watching the show because I discovered FiD, and wanted to see the original inspiration. I discovered FiD because I like a number of other "campaign comics" based on TV and movies.

Nerd-o-rama

2015-08-16, 08:58 PM

I am a fan of Friendship is Dragons and I haven't even actually watched the show. It provides a nice complement to Darths and Droids' (my gold standard for campaign comics) engaging drama and insane one-upsmanship in how much the GM and players can twist the plot with a much more hapless group of goofballs learning about themselves and RPGs.

Knaight

2015-08-16, 10:54 PM

Everybody started watching the show ironically, then it turned out to be slightly better than you could expect from a cartoon made for five year old girls and for some reason that automatically turned it into a great show in people's minds.

It's not. It's a slightly above average cartoon for five year old girls.

I'm not a fan of the show by any stretch of the imagination (I watched the first episode because it was hyped, found little of interest, and bailed), but "slightly above average" is questionable at best. It seems like the sort of characterization that would emerge from someone lucky enough to have not recently encountered much in the way of other children's shows recently; the standards are really, really low. Most of the abject crap gets forgotten about, whereas things like MLP, Kim Possible, and Avatar are remembered, but the likes of Chowder, Catdog, and Telletubbies are probably more representative of the norm.

Balmas

2015-08-17, 04:56 AM

Just a thought, but this discussion could easily be had in the MLP thread in the Media Discussions subforum.

CombatBunny

2015-08-17, 09:55 AM

I think it has to do with expectations,

I’ve never had any problem watching kid’s shows (I used to like very much “Franklin the turtle”), buying toys or doing things that some others would consider odd or strange.

So when I get everyone to talk about MLP:FiM I came with some expectations, just to find a silly show that brings nothing new to the genre. It’s not a bad show for kids, but is largely unremarkable and generic, using plots that have been overused extensively (self -acceptance, trusting friends, looking beyond first appearances, getting obsessed with being the best in something and a large etc.).

Why is it so popular? Because it can be enjoyed by grownups as well (not that it will challenge intellectually anyone, early bugs bunny episodes are more challenging than this), and so these people have found a scape valve to release things they have been repressing for far too long.

It’s not about how good or bad MLP episodes are, the thing is that it helped many people to be able to say “I like cute things” or “I collect girly toys” or “I always wanted to watch a kiddy show”, without feeling guilty.

Now they have a shield to resort to because “the scripting is wonderful” or “they have some dark or eerie tones”. But for the rest of us who have never needed a shield to like the things that we like without regard of society opinions, I’m afraid to say that I find it boring, predictable and not cute. I love cute things, but in the case of MLP:FiM I find their cuteness pathetic and unnatural; their personalities and drawings struggle so hard to be cute that they end up being ridiculous and annoying.

I confirm this when I read comments of the fans saying things like “Because it’s just as awesome as or more than the Power Puff Girls”. So, the PPG is the parameter of good cartoons? Is that supposed to be a good reference? No more questions.

So, MLP is considered a master piece because is better than animation titans like what? Dora the explorer? Yes, certainly. Does it has more complicated and psychological themes than what? Teletubbies or Barnie? Yes, MLP owns them all.

So, I believe that the fanbase consider MLP a work of art, because they are challenging it against current shows aired at free t.v. channels. And yes, compared to that MLP is one of the most decent things around, but it would certainly fail to compete with works that exist outside that tiny bubble that it is nickJr and discovery kids, which seems to represent the whole world regarding animation for these bronies.

BeerMug Paladin

2015-08-17, 11:15 AM

From what I've seen it's because generally optimistic and sincere works of fiction are in the minority these days and people seem to think its funny.

There's also puns, and occasional songs that are pretty good.

Back on topic, though; the show is quite simply joyful.

Sometimes you want something miserable and tense (Breaking Bad, Walking Dead, etc..). And sometimes you just want something joyful.

Such things seem pretty rare to me, so if the only media that does it well is aimed at 5-year old girls, that's where the people who want to see it will end up.

Ralanr

2015-08-17, 11:22 AM

There's also puns, and occasional songs that are pretty good.

Sometimes you want something miserable and tense (Breaking Bad, Walking Dead, etc..). And sometimes you just want something joyful.

Such things seem pretty rare to me, so if the only media that does it well is aimed at 5-year old girls, that's where the people who want to see it will end up.

Pretty much hits the nail on the head.

Vitruviansquid

2015-08-17, 12:13 PM

Like everything else under the sun, cartoons are liked and disliked for the right reasons and the wrong reasons. I am surprised by how readily we are to assign reasons to other people and then judge them based on it, though.

I watched it in sort of the same way I would sit down and read something like Beowulf. The intent is not to be directly entertained, though you keep an open mind that it could happen.

Part of it is the variety. You want to intake a large variety of different culture because it's interesting to find out how other people see things. I'd go nuts as a guy in my 20's if I only read and watched stuff strictly meant for guys in their 20's.

Part of it is academic. I think it's fun to watch something and try to take it apart and analyze the appeal in it. This is why I'd say you should experience the show first hand before asking us. It's just more fun going into it as a fresh experience so you can have your own take.

Part of it is that it's something I haven't seen a lot of before. Now, I don't know how fair this turns out to be for the REAL cartoon afficionados, but my impression is that cartoons lately (since Spongebob Squarepants came on the air, if you want an exact time frame) have a couple of main sources of humor. Randomness is a big part of it, where the show tries to make you laugh by hitting you with something from completely out of left field ("Is mayonnaise an instrument?"). Meanness is another part of it, where the show attempts to give you an obvious and easy target of ridicule ("Is mayonnaise an instrument?"). MLP is a children's cartoon that kicks away those crutches and mostly tries to be humorous in different ways, which is sort of refreshing.

And the last part, for which I expect to take a bit of heat, is that I think it creates actual delight because it's a fairly good display of the fundamentals in storytelling. On a very basic level, the show creates delight by having a juxtaposition of surprisingly mundane, real life things with an aggressively fantasy world. You wonder what the MLP version of this and that would be, and then the show displays it for you. The show introduces characters simply, flatly, to orient your feelings toward them, and then layers on new dimensions to them later. The characters are also charismatic - they tend to have that blend of lovable and hate-able that makes them compelling. Time in the show progresses, while still maintaining a laid back, slice-of-life pacing. The show isn't incredibly exciting to describe. In fact, I'd say it's pretty much orthodox in every way as a Saturday morning cartoon. But when everything else I've been watching has been weird and outlandish, that orthodoxy is sort of refreshing.

DigoDragon

2015-08-17, 12:38 PM

DigoDragon (active forum member) draws a webcomic?!

Err, I do guest comics for web comics. ^^;
I do occasionally make comics (http://digoraccoon.deviantart.com/) and similar stuff (http://outlawmares.tumblr.com/), though nothing regularly.

He's currently in a Fallout Equestria game on these forums, though I'm not sure how the MLP comes into play.

I think the juxtaposition of cute pastel ponies with guns and magic and rolling dice to beat up mythical creatures is a lot of fun.

One Tin Soldier

2015-08-17, 04:34 PM

As far as pony RPGs go, it helps to stop thinking of it as a children's show, but instead as a high fantasy setting. There are practically no humanoid creatures, the weather and the seasons are directly controlled by the dominant species of the area, and the day and night are controlled by people that are (relatively) mortal. Magic and flight are normal abilities that a third of the population each have, opening the door for things like cities that are built on top of clouds and tiny realms that require you to be shrunken to visit. The essences of camaraderie and teamwork are literally the most powerful forces in existence in the setting – a great theme for any group-based game. There's plenty of threats out there, too. Savage monsters, greedy dragons, strange magical anomalies, evil magicians, and mad demigods are all there, and that's before you add in anything outside of the source material itself.

Add in the cute aesthetic and the mood of optimism and sincerity, and it's not that hard to see why people feel they can do a lot with the setting.

martixy

2015-08-17, 07:33 PM

I've seen a few episodes. It's okay.

But I am continually amazed by the sheer quality of artwork the community is capable of producing.
Take this (http://devinian.deviantart.com/art/Commission-Piercing-The-Sky-545912413) for example. Or this (http://mauroz.deviantart.com/art/Friendship-Is-Magic-07-P3-551769825). And this (http://dantewontdie.deviantart.com/art/Luna-500172485), and this (http://skyshek.deviantart.com/art/mlp-Human-summer-XSports-551365460).

Also, it managed to create(or at least bring to light) a whole new fetish and lower my expectations of horny teens the world over even further.

Brookshw

2015-08-18, 08:05 AM

I see this thread's been moved. Anyway, between the magic parallels, tone of game and juxtaposition explanations I think my curiosity regarding the relationship between the show and the prevalence of pony rpgs is pretty much sated. Thanks for the answers all!

Pendulous

2015-08-18, 09:28 AM

It's a lot of little stuff added together.

Is the show reminiscent of anime? Yes, but barely. The Sailor Moon "we kill things with our power like every episode" only really takes place in a few episodes, namely the season premiers and finales.

Is it inspired by fantasy worlds and D&D? Clearly. But a fantasy-based creature only really appears a few times a season. The show is still mostly a slice of life show.

Is it well-written? Sure. But it's on TV. It's not like national TV channels just throw any random crap on them all the time. ... Well...scratch that...

Is it well animated? Yeah, but like any show there are a multitude of glitches, and people have been nice enough to compile all those.

To me, the main two things that make it appealing is the characters and voice acting. Take another western animated show, like, say, Family Guy. Do you see any personality traits in any of these characters that make them feel human and likable? Hell no. It's a hilarious show, but if each and every character on the show died, you'd probably just laugh and move on. Same with Archer. Great show, funnier than anything. But all the characters are just pricks who you'd probably not miss. The characters in the show are real personalities, with realistic traits. Think about that. A show about colored ponies has more human characters than other shows. Hell, Futurama too. And most of that show's characters are non-human. It's almost like the U.S. can't write good humans. My Little Pony has characters you genuinely care about.

It also feels different than other shows when it comes to acting. Even though the show is presented as a comedy, at least in a small way, it's not the main focus. To me, the voices reflect this, and it comes off as completely different than other shows. To go back to the other shows, Seth McFarlane, and the entire cast of Futurama are legendary voice actors. But while watching season one of My Little Pony, I discovered that there isn't a single character on TV that was voiced better than Rarity, no matter how much I hated the character. So much emotion and care was put into every single line.

I always wonder, especially now. Shows like Gravity Falls, Steven Universe, Adventure Time, and older shows like Fairly Oddparents (hello Tara Strong) and Spongbob, don't seem to get as much questioning about why adults like the shows. The only difference to me is that this show actually features four-legged colored small horses. But they aren't horses. They're humans, at least in spirit. that's why I think so much art is placed on them being human, and why a human spin-off was inevitable and actually well-received (well, the second movie anyway).

Or not. I just love to answer that question.

DigoDragon

2015-08-18, 09:42 AM

The characters in the show are real personalities, with realistic traits. Think about that. A show about colored ponies has more human characters than other shows. Hell, Futurama too. And most of that show's characters are non-human. It's almost like the U.S. can't write good humans. My Little Pony has characters you genuinely care about.

Having characters that you generally care about and invest in seems like something that draws players to use them in RPGs, so I think Pendulous is on to something here.

The Insanity

2015-08-18, 10:07 AM

I watch it for the plot.

Manga Shoggoth

2015-08-18, 02:13 PM

If you don't take it too seriously its a fun little animation which was deliberately written to appeal to children and adults who are having to watch it with their children.

I can think of no better complement for the show than I can sit down and watch it with my daughter without wanting to tear my eyes out or pierce my eardrums. And there is precious little children's television that I can do that with.

Granted, some of the fans (and the haters) go overboard with it, but that's not the show's fault. And for the most part it is a fairly pleasant fandom.

Berserk Mecha

2015-08-18, 02:20 PM

I have a few theories for why My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic is so popular.

It premiered at the right time. From 2010 to 2011, there was little for niche-seeking geeks to get excited for. There was no new big quirky anime at the time. No new weird video game. Nothing for the geeks who like to feel that they fill a special niche.

I remember in, oh, mid 2011 when there was a bunch of pony videos on the internet and I grudgingly decided to watch the show to see what the fuss was about. I expected the show to be silly and that the people watching it were doing so ironically. What I got instead was something that I really had never seen before.

I cannot really put my finger on what it was that I was seeing, but if I had to put it into words, it’d be a cross between an iyashikei (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Iyashikei) anime and loony tunes. Mellow slice-of-life cartoons are really not a thing in American animation. I’m not a fan of iyashikei or moe or stuff like that, but MLP finds an interesting balance with zany stuff happening.

I’m not an expert on cartoons aimed for young girls, and I’m still not, but I got the impression that they were shallow and uninteresting unless you are the target demographic for them. MLP is aimed at a much wider audience. Once you watch, say, three episodes or so, it stops being cringe-inducing. I don’t think anyone expected this.

The writing is also surprisingly good. I wouldn’t say that it’s phenomenal, but there’s something in how the characters are written that makes it enjoyable. The most prominent of the mane six, Twilight, is an introverted nerd. The writers chose not to go with a ‘generic’ main character as the front and then have a bunch of quirky personalities on the peripheries. Every main character is unique feels like they have something to contribute to the show.

The way that Rarity is written is amazing. Most girls in fiction who stress over fashion and clothes and whatnot are depicted as vain and shallow and elitist. Rarity is shown to be an artist who really works hard for what she cares about. She is also not dismissive of others.

It'll be interesting to see how this show endures the test of time. Is this going to be a new standard for girl's cartoons? Is a new and improved show going to surpass it?

Oh, and seeing Fluttershy reluctantly sing the evil enchantress song was one of the funniest things that I have ever seen and probably ever will see. Ever.

GloatingSwine

2015-08-18, 03:45 PM

Aside from seeing a friends 5 year old watching the show I've had no exposure to the My Little Pony, and yet I see plenty of people with pony avatars and games set in various pony universes. I guess I'm just clueless here, what is it about this show that's drawn so much attention and why has it translated into rpgs to such an extent? Curious minds want to know (and I'm told there may be sugar cube prizes for answers).

It's the new Desu.

It's colourful and characterful and so it can generate fan attachment (and memes) significantly in excess of its actual quality as a TV show (it's OK I guess but I wouldn't watch it by choice)

Except unlike the desu show (Rozen Maiden) it got popular whilst it was still current not a year or so later and hence didn't die in a ditch after two seasons.

The Fury

2015-08-18, 04:08 PM

Prime32

2015-08-18, 05:37 PM

Oh, believe me I get why it's popular. Why it's as popular as it is... Well, that's a difficult question. In just about every fandom in their respective corners of the internet, you see ponies. Think of any given TV show, game, movie, or whatever and someone within the fanbase has either added ponies to it or has "ponified" characters from it. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but it's definitely strange. I can't think of any other thing from pop culture that's like that. I guess it's a cross between My Little Pony having a strong crossover with so many other fandoms and being fairly easy to adapt into other media? I dunno.Someone's never heard of Rule ⑨ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touhou_Project#Reception_and_fanworks). :smalltongue:

Just about every fandom does that stuff, it's more a matter of scale. Plus the whole "everyone is now a technicolour horse" aspect helps MLP crossovers to stand out, while providing an obvious hook for artists.

t209

2015-08-18, 05:52 PM

I initially watched it to spite my brother.
Now I liked it.

The Fury

2015-08-18, 09:38 PM

Someone's never heard of Rule ⑨ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touhou_Project#Reception_and_fanworks). :smalltongue:

Just about every fandom does that stuff, it's more a matter of scale. Plus the whole "everyone is now a technicolour horse" aspect helps MLP crossovers to stand out, while providing an obvious hook for artists.

Urban Dictionary defines Rule 9 as "Always carry a knife." Sound advice... I guess? Don't see how that's relevant though.

Jokes aside, I'm aware that fans will try to insert the object of their fandom into other fan-communities that happen to overlap. It's just weird that MLP happens to overlap with every fan-community ever. "Ponification" is just weird. If it's to make crossovers stand out, I don't think it does it very well. Just because it's so common now that I practically expect it to happen. I can watch just about any TV show and say with near certainty, "Someone's drawn these characters as ponies." I guess I can sort of see it as some sort of quick visual cue to MLP fans that they might like this fan work because it has ponies in it.

EDIT:
Just to add some clarity, let me reiterate: I am absolutely not saying that pony-crossovers or "ponifying" are bad at all, just that I find them strange.

Pendulous

2015-08-18, 10:10 PM

Urban Dictionary defines Rule 9 as "Always carry a knife." Sound advice... I guess? Don't see how that's relevant though.

Someone writing Urban Dictionary definitions must be an NCIS fan.

Lord Raziere

2015-08-19, 12:47 AM

EDIT:
Just to add some clarity, let me reiterate: I am absolutely not saying that pony-crossovers or "ponifying" are bad at all, just that I find them strange.

Don't worry, I like the show and I myself scratch my head at them too. especially any of the ones involving fighting media, because as I seem to recall the entire point of MLP is a lesson in how to not to solve your problems with fighting. it just dilutes the flavor y'know, there is a certain flavor to certain shows and such, and while I like crossovering, you have to be careful about it, because if your not careful, the flavor can be diluted in a bad way and end up with something just tasting weird and just not as good the flavors are separately, y'know?

Rater202

2015-08-19, 01:45 AM

especially any of the ones involving fighting media, because as I seem to recall the entire point of MLP is a lesson in how to not to solve your problems with fighting.

On the other hand, the Season 4 finale included an actual fight scene that has been compared to Dragon Ball Z(and Twilight only lost becuase Tirek Cheeted)

As for why the show is popular, I direct the Original Poster to this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd0-cGkClMQ), which explains it pretty wellatthe beginning(Though it's primarily about the fandom itself)

Lord Raziere

2015-08-19, 01:54 AM

On the other hand, the Season 4 finale included an actual fight scene that has been compared to Dragon Ball Z(and Twilight only lost becuase Tirek Cheeted)

which is one fight, not representative of the rest of the show, didn't solve anything, that and one out of genre moment does not a justification make. it was just thrown in there because "why not?"

Rater202

2015-08-19, 02:00 AM

=. it was just thrown in there because "why not?"

Officially it was because the Hasbro censors wouldn't let them have Twilight punch Tirek in the face.

You ever noticed that?Te censored violence in cartoons tends to be more violent than the original idea?

Anyway, I mentioned it because while that's the most extreme, it's not the only fight scene in the series. It's just the best example.

And that's why fighting stuff gets Ponified.

Zrak

2015-08-19, 02:22 AM

The short answer is it's kind of like Adventure Time for people who don't like (or at least aren't looking for) surrealism and pathos or The Regular Show for people who've never felt that ennui is the driving force in their life.

the likes of . . . Telletubbies are probably more representative of the norm.

I don't think it's really a fair point of comparison. Teletubbies is meant for significantly younger children. Even putting that aside, while narratively lacking, I'd say Teletubbies is aesthetically more accomplished. Even by the almost dadaist standards of television for very young children, Teletubbies has a really weird, unique, and consistent aesthetic.

Same with Archer. Great show, funnier than anything. But all the characters are just pricks who you'd probably not miss.
I don't really think this is true. Part of the lasting appeal Archer found that Frisky Dingo didn't is a more stylish and accessible setting, but a big part of it is basing almost all of its characters' ludicrous comic flaws in real humanity; they're all the way they are for a reason, and the reason is usually kind of sad and pretty relatable.

Closet_Skeleton

2015-08-19, 03:45 AM

On a very basic level, the show creates delight by having a juxtaposition of surprisingly mundane, real life things with an aggressively fantasy world. You wonder what the MLP version of this and that would be, and then the show displays it for you.

So its The Flintstones minus most of the stuff The Simpson was copying?

I always wonder, especially now. Shows like Gravity Falls, Steven Universe, Adventure Time, and older shows like Fairly Oddparents (hello Tara Strong) and Spongbob, don't seem to get as much questioning about why adults like the shows.

I think "girl's things are bad" is the reason there, though that's probably actually over-shadowed by how aggressively visible the fandom is.

From 2010 to 2011, there was little for niche-seeking geeks to get excited for. There was no new big quirky anime at the time. No new weird video game.

Personally I suspect that a lot of Bronies are not big anime fans and latched onto it because they didn't belong in an anime-dominated subculture but I'm purely speculating here.

DigoDragon

2015-08-19, 06:46 AM

Officially it was because the Hasbro censors wouldn't let them have Twilight punch Tirek in the face.

But they do allow Rarity to kick everyone in the face. XD

Rater202

2015-08-19, 11:03 AM

But they do allow Rarity to kick everyone in the face. XD

Well, a karate style jumping kick is't something that can be imitated by most children.

The Fury

2015-08-19, 11:31 AM

You ever noticed that?Te censored violence in cartoons tends to be more violent than the original idea?

Or in case of Batman the Animated Series it just got more horrific. Can't show The Joker kill people? OK, we'll just have him spray people with gas which makes them pass out with a horrible rictus grin!

I think "girl's things are bad" is the reason there, though that's probably actually over-shadowed by how aggressively visible the fandom is.

I don't know about that. Have you seen Steven Universe? It's got a lot of pink, sparkly stuff in it. So I'd say it's pretty girly, despite having a male protagonist.

Telonius

2015-08-19, 12:38 PM

Ninja_Prawn

2015-08-19, 02:33 PM

I watch it for the plot.

Rarity is best plot.

There. I said it.

Raimun

2015-08-19, 02:51 PM

I have no idea what's with that show.

Perhaps Joe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXcsmSF8PYs) would know?

1dominator

2015-08-19, 05:56 PM

It is a fun show that for some inscrutable reason developed a fanatical core following (think communist vanguard parties), things spread from there and one crusade later pony holds sway over a significant chunk of the internet.

Thanqol

2015-08-20, 01:14 AM

Ponies are really easy to draw. Way easier than these monstrous, tentacle-fingered, gangly abominations that we call humans.

Ponies being easy to draw means the barrier to producing art is way, way lower.

Low barriers to producing art means that people produce lots of art.

Producing lots of art makes you better at doing art.

Ergo, over the previous five years, huge numbers of artists have risen up from obscurity and mediocrity to become vastly better than when they began. Further, they do this in the confines of an incredibly prolific, supportive, positive community with thousands of guaranteed watchers. Ergo, pony art proliferates - wildly, endlessly, in every possible permutation and combination, in a wonderful self-reinforcing loop.

Writing and music is much the same story. Musicians got started remixing, then moved on to ever more daring and spellbinding original pieces. Writers started off with short form, close-cut fanfictions which quickly began to spread into deeply moving masterpieces.

The combination of low barriers to entry, support, guidance and mentoring, and a built-in audience are the ideal conditions for young artists to bloom. And with each new artist comes fans of that artist, which rapidly becomes a self-reinforcing grid where all your favourite artists, writers and musicians are sourced from the same fandom.

It's a cultural movement. That's why ponies.

Zrak

2015-08-20, 02:40 AM

I get that you like a thing, but isn't "deeply moving masterpieces" a little excessive?

RCgothic

2015-08-20, 02:46 AM

Nope. Pony fan fiction contains some of the most incredible, enjoyable, uplifting stuff I've ever read. Some I'd rank up there with Tolkein, Asimov or Rowling.

Aotrs Commander

2015-08-20, 05:08 AM

I get that you like a thing, but isn't "deeply moving masterpieces" a little excessive?

No. No more or less so than any other collection of writers.

I read fanfic daily and have done for about a decade. This is because I read at meal times and doing anything other than reading Free Stuff On The Internet would rapidly spin into too much space or too much cost.

Fanfiction generally, despite its rap from detractors, has a wide range of quality from the steriotypically perceived tripe for trolls or semi-literate teenagers to people who could be or want to be actual authors and thus are really quite good1. (While writing is hard, it's no no so than any other creative endevour; and something being your "proper job" doesn't mean that a) they are necessarily any good at it and b) they are any better at it than someone that does it for fun... And thus the fact that fanfic is written by "amatuers" just means "the quality can be variable.") The worset is of course, below publishable standards, but the best is definitely in the highest tier. Just like any other hobby. (E.g. where indy or smaller company games can be leagues better than the latest triple AAA releases. Or wargames, where the best sets of rules don't come from big gaming companies, they could from people who can spend the time to perfect them and do so because the want to write a good set of rules, not SELL a set of rules...)

Before pony, I read Naruto - which, along with Harry Potter - comprise top two most massive areas of fanfiction on Fanfiction.net. By a LONG margin. The signal-to-noise ratio is rather poor there, but the high end is REALLY good.

Pony fanfic largely ended up on Fimfiction, its own site - where, unlike Fanfic, stories have to pass a moderation bar before being allowed on, thus at least raising the minimum standard. Not that there isn't crap on there, but thanks to that and the featured and popular stories functions, the signal-to-noise is MUCH higher.

And there are some EXCEPTIONAL good writers on there, writing some really good - and sometimes powerful stories. The fact that these stories are about magical talking ponies means essentially nothing to the proceedings; good stories are good stories are good stories. It matters little whether they are about magical talking ponies, giant transforming alien robots, magical hairless primate ninjas or magical hairless primates catching magical creature friends to fight for sport or starships. The good writers, if they weren't writing pony, would be writing something else, like as not (and many of them DID before pony), because writing is their hobby - and as Thanq says, fanfiction gives you a garenteed audience.

(Thanqol himself there actually is one of the aforementioned writers, incidently; actually there's a few of the denizens of the Playground and ponythread regulars (current or past) who fall into that category.)

It is just that, because of the unique world and well-developed characters (all of whom get their fair share of screen-time, unlike the previously popular things like Naruto where that wasn't true) MLP presents, it caught a lot of people's imaginations. (Mine included.)

Add in a fandom that - at least to start with and more modally than not still (but now suffers from the fact you get arses in every fandom)- was making the geninue effort to upnold the values of friendship espousd by said show and thus be nicer and supportive to everyone and you, get, as Thanq says, a self-reinforcing loop. A lot of people say they can take or leave the show, but stick around because of the fandom.

1It is also a FRACK ton easier to take someone else's toybox and adapt it to your own than it is to make your own toybox. Take it from someone whose major campaign world basically tossed D&D's monster manual (and vancian casting) aside to rebuild from scratch and hjow, having decided that wasn't bloody stupid enough, has decided his next project is to build a campaign world set on an ENTIRELY alien planet (where there are no humans) on a tidelocked planet around a variable star... So the time investment is a little lower, since you're just borrowing other people's toys.

One Tin Soldier

2015-08-20, 06:41 AM

I don't know about that. Have you seen Steven Universe? It's got a lot of pink, sparkly stuff in it. So I'd say it's pretty girly, despite having a male protagonist.

Oh, Steven Universe is very girly, in ways very similar to MLP. It celebrates family, (even non traditional families!) love, and kindness. Which is why it probably shouldn't come as a surprise that there is a decently-sized overlap between the two fandoms. Really, they are the kind of shows that should get mentioned side-by-side the way, say, Adventure Time and Regular Show do. I think the pony fandom just has this stigma to it that it can't shake, and fans of SU who aren't bronies get weirdly defensive about "having their space invaded."

CombatBunny

2015-08-20, 09:57 AM

Nope. Pony fan fiction contains some of the most incredible, enjoyable, uplifting stuff I've ever read. Some I'd rank up there with Tolkein, Asimov or Rowling.

As for Rowling and Tolkien I’ve nothing to say; for me they are like reading comics (fun without substance), books that you can dispose once you have read them, as there is no value in reading them a second time.

But when you compare pony fanfics to Asimov, I think you run the risk of speaking far too lightly. I have read some of Asimov books (at least more than 15) and I’ve found many of them to be works of imagination very hard to match, not only for the technologic advancement that he envisions, but for the ethical, philosophical and theological questions that he poses. Just to name an example: “Would you love a machine that looks, reacts and behaves as your soul mate? Even as you realize that the machine is just trying to please you in every moment (and that includes giving you doses of arguing and not being in agreement with you, in the quantity that humans needs those aspects in their lives). Will that can be still considered love?”

I’m also an avid reader of classic writers like Dostoyevsky, Tolstoi, Herodotus of Halicarnassus, Dumas, Miguel de Cervantes, Margaret Mitchel, Gaius Suetonius, etc. So when you speak of ponies I can’t but be skeptical and believe that you aren’t very aware of what you are saying.

Give me the link of one of these pony master works (the best one you can recall) and I’ll give myself a time to read it. If it’s as good as you claim, I would gladly keep looking for more of these undisclosed master writers and would certainly recommend them, otherwise it would be another weapon in my arsenal, as yet more evidence that bronies tend to speak as lightly as pinky-pie.

Greetings.

P.S. I recommend you not to include Rowling or Tolkien into your list of top notch writers. Popular is not the same as good. Maybe some people would get impressed at those names, but any relative serious reader would just have a good laugh.

DigoDragon

2015-08-20, 10:41 AM

Most of today's parents were kids when the original cartoon was on in the 80s, so you have the nostalgia factor going there. The fact that this incarnation of the show is a lot better than most people remember the original as being just adds to it. (And that's just talking about what people remember of the original. If you really want a contrast, go back and watch one of the original episodes; they're godawful and nearly unwatchable now).

I grew up in the 80s and watched the original MLP series. It can be pretty bad, though some of the villains were pretty neat. The nostalgia is there, and I do have a daughter who is part of the current "main target audience" so her opinion is interesting to hear. It's a pretty cool show to bond over.

Aotrs Commander

2015-08-20, 10:58 AM

As for Rowling and Tolkien I’ve nothing to say; for me they are like reading comics (fun without substance), books that you can dispose once you have read them, as there is no value in reading them a second time.

But when you compare pony fanfics to Asimov, I think you run the risk of speaking far too lightly. I have read some of Asimov books (at least more than 15) and I’ve found many of them to be works of imagination very hard to match, not only for the technologic advancement that he envisions, but for the ethical, philosophical and theological questions that he poses. Just to name an example: “Would you love a machine that looks, reacts and behaves as your soul mate? Even as you realize that the machine is just trying to please you in every moment (and that includes giving you doses of arguing and not being in agreement with you, in the quantity that humans needs those aspects in their lives). Will that can be still considered love?”

I’m also an avid reader of classic writers like Dostoyevsky, Tolstoi, Herodotus of Halicarnassus, Dumas, Miguel de Cervantes, Margaret Mitchel, Gaius Suetonius, etc. So when you speak of ponies I can’t but be skeptical and believe that you aren’t very aware of what you are saying.

Give me the link of one of these pony master works (the best one you can recall) and I’ll give myself a time to read it. If it’s as good as you claim, I would gladly keep looking for more of these undisclosed master writers and would certainly recommend them, otherwise it would be another weapon in my arsenal, as yet more evidence that bronies tend to speak as lightly as pinky-pie.

Greetings.

P.S. I recommend you not to include Rowling or Tolkien into your list of top notch writers. Popular is not the same as good. Maybe some people would get impressed at those names, but any relative serious reader would just have a good laugh.

"Popular" may not be the same as "good"; but that blade cuts both ways. Something well might be technically accomplished or of significant historical interest (e.g. Herodotus) but that isn't necessarily the same thing as "good." Because that means different things to different people. "Good" is very subjective.

I personally DO consider Tolkien to be top-tier (alongside Prachett, David Eddings and Timothy Zhan; and actually the Giant himself, come to that) and LotR is my favourite novel (for wnat of a better term). My favourite book of all time is unquestionbly Spacecraft 2000-2100AD, which has basically no human characters at all. I've read Asimov and found it held absolutely no interest to me, personally and, I'm afraid, the same goes for many of "the classics." (Or a lot of literary sci-fi - over my recent holiday I read "the Mammoth Book of SF Wars and was nearly bored to tears by all but maybe two of the stories; largely because I'm not interested in the analysis of the "human condition." Like AT ALL.) So I wouldn't personally consider them "good." Like art, I might find the historical context of a famous work more interesting and valuable than the work itself.

There probably are some pony work like that, but as I personally will not have read them because they hold no interest for me; and by the sounds of it, our tastes are WIDELY disparate, so I suspect nothing either one of us could recommend anything to the other from our respective interests.

One Tin Soldier

2015-08-20, 11:08 AM

As for Rowling and Tolkien I’ve nothing to say; for me they are like reading comics (fun without substance), books that you can dispose once you have read them, as there is no value in reading them a second time.

But when you compare pony fanfics to Asimov, I think you run the risk of speaking far too lightly. I have read some of Asimov books (at least more than 15) and I’ve found many of them to be works of imagination very hard to match, not only for the technologic advancement that he envisions, but for the ethical, philosophical and theological questions that he poses. Just to name an example: “Would you love a machine that looks, reacts and behaves as your soul mate? Even as you realize that the machine is just trying to please you in every moment (and that includes giving you doses of arguing and not being in agreement with you, in the quantity that humans needs those aspects in their lives). Will that can be still considered love?”

I’m also an avid reader of classic writers like Dostoyevsky, Tolstoi, Herodotus of Halicarnassus, Dumas, Miguel de Cervantes, Margaret Mitchel, Gaius Suetonius, etc. So when you speak of ponies I can’t but be skeptical and believe that you aren’t very aware of what you are saying.

Give me the link of one of these pony master works (the best one you can recall) and I’ll give myself a time to read it. If it’s as good as you claim, I would gladly keep looking for more of these undisclosed master writers and would certainly recommend them, otherwise it would be another weapon in my arsenal, as yet more evidence that bronies tend to speak as lightly as pinky-pie.

Greetings.

P.S. I recommend you not to include Rowling or Tolkien into your list of top notch writers. Popular is not the same as good. Maybe some people would get impressed at those names, but any relative serious reader would just have a good laugh.

One of the few fics I've seen that has that level of "literaryness" would be Background Pony (https://www.fimfiction.net/story/19198/background-pony). The question that the story asks is, "If no one could ever know you, can you still make a positive difference in the world?" It's pretty poetically written and very melancholy, (and very long) so it's not really a light read, but I would definitely recommend it to anyone looking into the heavy side of pony fanfiction.

That said, like the good commander, I usually read fics that are more genre fiction. While most of those are less impressive, literarily speaking, they are a whole lot of fun.

Closet_Skeleton

2015-08-20, 11:35 AM

Or in case of Batman the Animated Series it just got more horrific. Can't show The Joker kill people? OK, we'll just have him spray people with gas which makes them pass out with a horrible rictus grin!

The Joker killing people gets pretty boring fast anyway.

I don't know about that. Have you seen Steven Universe? It's got a lot of pink, sparkly stuff in it. So I'd say it's pretty girly, despite having a male protagonist.

No, I haven't really seen FiM either*. But your complaint is based on a rational tangible detail and therefore far over-thinking the level of reaction I'm talking about.

Oh, Steven Universe is very girly, in ways very similar to MLP.

There's still a massive apparent category difference between a show for girls aiming at including male viewers and a show for boys aiming at being inclusive for female viewers even if the actual content is basically the same.

I’m also an avid reader of classic writers like Dostoyevsky, Tolstoi, Herodotus of Halicarnassus, Dumas, Miguel de Cervantes, Margaret Mitchel, Gaius Suetonius, etc. So when you speak of ponies I can’t but be skeptical and believe that you aren’t very aware of what you are saying.

P.S. I recommend you not to include Rowling or Tolkien into your list of top notch writers. Popular is not the same as good. Maybe some people would get impressed at those names, but any relative serious reader would just have a good laugh.

To be fair, Suetonius is basically a gossip columnist trying to be as cliche as possible.

Most of the SF classic fans I know (mostly from my father's generation) consider Asimov to be one of the worst writers of his age due to an apparent complete inability to write believable human characters. So I have a hard time believing anyone claiming him to be that great a writer (I've only read the first and last Robot trilogy novels and the odd short story myself).

Rowling at least understands the dynamics of actual teenage relationships even if she's often out-talented by her fanfic authors.

Appreciation of writing style is basically far too much a matter of taste for anyone to be snobbish about what's "real quality". Almost everything English from the 18th century is basically impenetrable to modern audiences but its arrogant to assume everyone just sucked at writing and judging writing back then.

*I'm not being snobbish since I do watch cartoons aimed at pre-teen girls, I'm merely too used to anime to find American voice acting bearable to listen to despite the clips I've seen from FiM not being the worst I've heard

Zrak

2015-08-20, 12:01 PM

Nope. Pony fan fiction contains some of the most incredible, enjoyable, uplifting stuff I've ever read. Some I'd rank up there with Tolkein, Asimov or Rowling.

I think, and this is fine, we are operating under different ideas and definitions of masterpiece; I'd never use the word to describe anything by Rowling, and only reluctantly for anything by Asimov.

P.S. I recommend you not to include Rowling or Tolkien into your list of top notch writers. Popular is not the same as good. Maybe some people would get impressed at those names, but any relative serious reader would just have a good laugh.
The fact that I had a similar reaction, but with omitting Rowling and Asimov instead, speaks to the subjectivity of taste. For example, I usually find works that "ask philosophical/ethical questions" very dull, at least if that's all they do and especially if they also presume to imply or outright provide an answer. For me, the most important aspects of fiction are prose style and characterization, probably in that order. If I want philosophical questions without those things, I'll read philosophy; this isn't to say I'm entirely against philosophical questions in fiction, but rather without the evocative prose or well-drawn characters that make those questions resonate on a more personal and intimate level, I'd rather just read straightforward philosophy.

No. No more or less so than any other collection of writers.
I think where our opinions diverge isn't that I consider fanfiction differently than any other collection of writers, but I believe that most collections of writers don't produce a masterpiece, let alone masterpieces; I would be just as skeptical if someone starting telling me all about the numerous masterpieces of the Black Mountain Poets, for example.

Aotrs Commander

2015-08-20, 12:35 PM

I think where our opinions diverge isn't that I consider fanfiction differently than any other collection of writers, but I believe that most collections of writers don't produce a masterpiece, let alone masterpieces; I would be just as skeptical if someone starting telling me all about the numerous masterpieces of the Black Mountain Poets, for example.

Fair enough: I was replying more to the "deeply moving" portion of your original quote than to "masterpiece;" if asked in earnest to qualify the latter in the snes you mean, I would qualify few entries in an entire MEDIUM to be masterpieces, let alone collections of works in a medium. (And I suspect even then my choices would be... unpopular with those of traditionally literary critic sort of bend...)

To expound on the former, though, simiarly to "good" what one finds "moving" is also subjective, of course.

(I personally found the scene in Age of Ultron where
Vision absently handed Thor his hammer
to be rather moving for me, personally.)

I have read the occasional powerful story (though I read so many stories I'd be hard-pressed to remember an example off the top of my head) in Fimfic and anecdotally have seen other people claim they have been deeply moved by such stories.

Though if your definition of "moved" extends to "hysterical laughter for five minutes because something is that funny" or (if you will forgive the TVTropes labelling) "crowning moments of awesome" then I could certainly cite a few more examples, since those are the things I personally enjoy - and remember - most.

CombatBunny

2015-08-20, 01:05 PM

[QUOTE=Zrak;19703377]The fact that I had a similar reaction, but with omitting Rowling and Asimov instead, speaks to the subjectivity of taste. For example, I usually find works that "ask philosophical/ethical questions" very dull, at least if that's all they do and especially if they also presume to imply or outright provide an answer. For me, the most important aspects of fiction are prose style and characterization, probably in that order.[QUOTE]

Given the subjectivity that you speak about, suppose that humanity is about to collapse and you are given the responsibility to preserve works for the generations that might survive.

You can only save one of these: the Greek’s tragedies (mostly a bunch of works of fiction with dull and boring philosophical and ethical questions) or a compilation of pony fanfics?

Which one would you choose? Or would you study both to see which one is more valuable? Analyzing your words, I assume you had already done that and you rather the ponies.

Historic value doesn’t counts, because in the scenario that I describe, the pony authors will be history as well.

Be congruent with your answer, and with that I mean that it would be hypocrite to offer humanity (which in the end is just a bunch of subjects similar to you) something that you wouldn’t want or find dull for yourself. If “good” for you is laughter and mayhem (I'm not implying that MLP is laughter and mayhem, take it just an example), that’s okay, maybe we all secretly think in the same manner and thus it’s better for us all. Just because a bunch of scholars with subjective opinions would rather the Greeks, that doesn’t means that you have to agree, but if you do, then which work is better?

At this point is not valid to say that ponies are good from the perspective of having a good time, as they have been upgraded to the level of “master pieces” (which compromises a lot of aspects), so they can be treated as such.

Zrak

2015-08-20, 02:47 PM

Fair enough: I was replying more to the "deeply moving" portion of your original quote than to "masterpiece;" if asked in earnest to qualify the latter in the snes you mean, I would qualify few entries in an entire MEDIUM to be masterpieces, let alone collections of works in a medium. (And I suspect even then my choices would be... unpopular with those of traditionally literary critic sort of bend...)
Ah, that makes sense. I was taking "deeply moving masterpiece" sort of as a unit, with "deeply moving" as a qualifier of "masterpiece." I generally think along similar lines; at least relative to the total number of works in a medium, very few can or should be called masterpieces, but a great many can be moving.

You can only save one of these: the Greek’s tragedies (mostly a bunch of works of fiction with dull and boring philosophical and ethical questions) or a compilation of pony fanfics?

Which one would you choose? Or would you study both to see which one is more valuable? Analyzing your words, I assume you had already done that and you rather the ponies.
I think you've misapprehended me. I would describe my experience with My Little Pony fanfiction as limited at best, but based on it would probably pick the Greek tragedies, which I don't usually find boring. Philosophical inquiry doesn't make a work boring, it just isn't an interesting basis for a work of fiction on its own. For example, Ayn Rand and George Orwell for the most part wrote bad, boring novels because they ought to have been writing essays; whatever ideas they express, their prose style is almost aggressively dull and their characters are oppressively flat. Conversely, Tolstoy's wrote incredible novels centered around philosophical and ethical questions because his prose was beautiful and his characterization insightful.

Be congruent with your answer, and with that I mean that it would be hypocrite to offer humanity (which in the end is just a bunch of subjects similar to you) something that you wouldn’t want or find dull for yourself. If “good” for you is laughter and mayhem, that’s okay, maybe we all secretly think in the same manner and thus it’s better for us all. Just because a bunch of scholars with subjective opinions would rather the Greeks, that doesn’t means that you have to agree, but if you do, then which work is better?

At this point is not valid to say that ponies are good from the perspective of having a good time, as they have been upgraded to the level of “master pieces” (which compromises a lot of aspects), so they can be treated as such.

I share at least two angles and one side with my answer, so we should be set.

BWR

2015-08-20, 02:58 PM

Rowling sold a lot and did get tons of kids reading. That second bit at least is genuinely worthy of respect, but I can't really think of anything about HP that is worthy of the accolade 'masterpiece'. Comparing her favorably to Tolkien or Asimov is just jarring. It's kinda like saying some filmmaker is as good as Kurosawa, Spielberg and Bay. You can enjoy any of them but two are generally better at more than a very narrow set of things than the third. Can't comment on MLP fanfics because I haven't read any of them and given that I don't like the source material I doubt I would like them.

CombatBunny

2015-08-20, 03:15 PM

Ah, that makes sense. I was taking "deeply moving masterpiece" sort of as a unit, with "deeply moving" as a qualifier of "masterpiece." I generally think along similar lines; at least relative to the total number of works in a medium, very few can or should be called masterpieces, but a great many can be moving.

I think you've misapprehended me...

I share at least two angles and one side with my answer, so we should be set.

Oh okay, I also understood that it was a “Master piece” with the aggregate attribute of being “deeply moving”. Now I understand that you consider it to be a master piece within the “deeply moving” range of works that you have met. Now that’s an opinion I’m perfectly okay with it, because it's subjective within its own context =)

Not that there couldn’t be a “Universal Master Piece” hidden on those works or waiting to be written, but I was freaked out when I saw that some of you were giving it that qualifier so lightly, in the manner of:

Many MLP fanfics are master pieces, just as good as “The true history of conquest”, Machiavelli’s “The Prince”, “Crime and Punishment”, “Prision break” and “Transformers IV”.

Zrak

2015-08-20, 03:35 PM

CombatBunny

2015-08-20, 03:41 PM

Oh okay, I got confused :p

That's cool! n.n

The ones who should had answered me, didn't.

Nevermind my friend, peace! :smalltongue:

Zrak

2015-08-20, 03:54 PM

Haha, no worries. I was wondering what the confusion was, since you seemed to think I was arguing basically the opposite of what I was. I blame my lack of an avatar. :smalltongue:

Lethologica

2015-08-20, 05:12 PM

P.S. I recommend you not to include Rowling or Tolkien into your list of top notch writers. Popular is not the same as good. Maybe some people would get impressed at those names, but any relative serious reader would just have a good laugh.
Er. Most relatively serious readers see the strengths of Tolkien's work that make him a top-notch something. That something might not be 'writer', exactly--myth-maker? creator?--but it's a close enough cousin that readers generally appreciate it regardless.

Thanqol

2015-08-20, 06:54 PM

I don't think you do, since you still appear to be under the impression I generally support the assertion that there are multiple or even numerous masterpieces, moving or otherwise, within My Little Pony fanfiction. While acknowledging that I don't have the experience with the material to outright reject the assertion, I am dubious of it, to say the least; if asked to lay a wager, I would certainly bet against any example of My Little Pony fanfiction being a masterpiece. I was, in fact, the person who first questioned the claim that many works of My Little Pony fanfiction were "deeply moving masterpieces."

Without being able to say for sure because I haven't read most, let alone all, examples of said fanfiction, I assume that "masterpiece," as I would personally use the term, is an excessive adulation.

I have an English degree and a lot of spare time on my hands. I am not lacking exposure to the classics, I am an immense snob, and I strive to say only what I mean. I stand by what I said.

Here's a good list (http://onemansponyramblings.blogspot.com.au/p/6-star-reviews-by-star-rating.html) of some of the fandom's best (complete with reviews by another literary type). I particularly recommend Tales if you're in the mood for something with powerful emotions behind it. I'd also strongly recommend Equestria From Dust (http://www.fimfiction.net/story/33610/equestria-from-dust) and Lost Cities (http://www.fimfiction.net/story/102166/lost-cities) (Lost Cities is probably the most accessible to someone who hasn't seen the show).

Someone up above recommended Background Pony. I didn't like that story - fair's fair.

Be sceptical if you gotta be, we live in a world where just about everyone is trying to sell you something so that's normal. But you've got the option to put that to the test and the most it's gonna cost you is a couple hours of your time.

The Fury

2015-08-20, 09:38 PM

No, I haven't really seen FiM either*. But your complaint is based on a rational tangible detail and therefore far over-thinking the level of reaction I'm talking about.

I guess I see what you mean. Everyone that has a vague idea of what My Little Pony is knows that it's a girly show and have a sort of knee-jerk reaction to it?* I can see how a show like Steven Universe wouldn't have that kind of reaction because you'd actually have to see stuff from the show to have an idea of how girly it is.

*I'm dense, so I tend to paraphrase a point to confirm whether or not I got it. I usually get it after a few tries.

RCgothic

2015-08-21, 02:28 AM

I did not mean to cause a literature debate! I have plenty of favorite authors, so I picked a trio of well-known ones who embody epic fantasy, cool ideas and accessible fun. They're are great pony fics for all of those.

Closet_Skeleton

2015-08-21, 04:54 AM

I guess I see what you mean. Everyone that has a vague idea of what My Little Pony is knows that it's a girly show and have a sort of knee-jerk reaction to it? I can see how a show like Steven Universe wouldn't have that kind of reaction because you'd actually have to see stuff from the show to have an idea of how girly it is.

I guess you could also say that My Little Pony is actually a much better title than Steven Universe in that it actually gives you some idea of what the franchise is about1 rather than just fitting into the 'Boy's name combined with unusual surname' form which is so horribly generic2 it could be the title of anything. One is a title that invites first impressions and the other does not.
1despite being misleading since when taken out of toy form and turned into a story there's no 'my' owning the ponies

2or maybe 'non-generic', not in the usual way that term might be used but in the sense that its so standard it isn't actually tied to any genre. More generic than genre if you will.

brionl

2015-08-23, 10:57 AM

I guess you could also say that My Little Pony is actually a much better title than Steven Universe in that it actually gives you some idea of what the franchise is about1 rather than just fitting into the 'Boy's name combined with unusual surname' form which is so horribly generic2 it could be the title of anything. One is a title that invites first impressions and the other does not.

1despite being misleading since when taken out of toy form and turned into a story there's no 'my' owning the ponies

Taken out of toy form? Have you been to a Walmart or Toys 'R Us lately?

Closet_Skeleton

2015-08-23, 11:01 AM

Taken out of toy form? Have you been to a Walmart or Toys 'R Us lately?

That has nothing to do with anything I meant at all. Please don't make snide comments about stuff I never said. Saying that a title doesn't make sense for all of a franchise's aspects is in no way even implying that any form of that franchise doesn't exist.

But Walmarts don't exist in my country and I haven't been to a Toys 'R Us in years.

Knaight

2015-08-25, 03:48 PM

I always wonder, especially now. Shows like Gravity Falls, Steven Universe, Adventure Time, and older shows like Fairly Oddparents (hello Tara Strong) and Spongbob, don't seem to get as much questioning about why adults like the shows. The only difference to me is that this show actually features four-legged colored small horses. But they aren't horses. They're humans, at least in spirit. that's why I think so much art is placed on them being human, and why a human spin-off was inevitable and actually well-received (well, the second movie anyway).

I'm not sure this is actually true. Adventure Time doesn't get the questioning, but it's also pretty clear that college students who smoke a lot of weed and play a lot of D&D are a core demographic, so it doesn't need much explaining. Spongebob does get questions. As for the rest of them, it's pretty much a matter of those not being known for having adult followings nearly as widely. People won't ask why something is the way it is if they don't even know that it is.

Lethologica

2015-08-25, 05:01 PM

Rater202

2015-08-25, 05:26 PM

Also, many of the other shows mentioned appear to be targeted towards little boys, while MLP appears to be targeted towards little girls, which influences how some people might view an adult fandom for those shows.
Irony-the original My Little Pony Toy line was supposed to be a gender neutral toyline.

Officially, gen 4(FiM) is marketed towards families who have little girls. Amongst other things, this means that the show is being written as to be enjoyable by the parents and siblings of the children in the primary demographic.

That includes say, fathers or brothers.

So it's not surprising that people outside of the "five year old girls"demographic would find things they like.

There's also been a few statements that the writers are making a show that they'd watch with their children.

Lethologica

2015-08-25, 07:32 PM

brionl

2015-08-26, 12:14 AM

Irony-the original My Little Pony Toy line was supposed to be a gender neutral toyline.

Officially, gen 4(FiM) is marketed towards families who have little girls. Amongst other things, this means that the show is being written as to be enjoyable by the parents and siblings of the children in the primary demographic.

That includes say, fathers or brothers.

So it's not surprising that people outside of the "five year old girls"demographic would find things they like.

There's also been a few statements that the writers are making a show that they'd watch with their children.

There are so many shows that are "Oh God, what where they thinking?" For instance, I watched an entire episode of the new Pig, Goat, Banana, Cricket because I was sure it couldn't be as bad as the commercials are making out. But nope, totally execrable. Then I was watching another show and they had an extended preview of Pickle & Peanut during a commercial break, and I wanted to gouge my brain out with a spoon after only watching 30 seconds of the show. It seemed like hours but was probably only one or two minutes.

I try to watch at least one episode of every cartoon, some I like, some I can stand but don't much care for, and some are so horrible I can't even watch five minutes.

For example, Penn Zero Part Time Hero is actually pretty funny and interesting. Star vs the Forces of Evil is tolerable, and Randy Cunningham: Ninth Grade Ninja is totally bruce.
Star Wars: Droid Tales would be better if they showed more than one episode per month. They must have shown episode 1 fifty times in the last month.

Closet_Skeleton

2015-08-26, 05:48 PM

Irony-the original My Little Pony Toy line was supposed to be a gender neutral toyline.

When the originally toy line came out, toys weren't gendered the way they are now. Gender neutral toys basically don't exist in the mainstream market today. That the product wasn't aimed exclusively at girls is probably more down to differences in how marketing strategy has evolved than any actual original intention for the product to appeal to boys as well.

DigoDragon

2015-08-28, 04:39 PM

I'm remembering the old "Polly Pocket" and "Mighty Max" toys. Essentially the same thing, but marketed to different genders.

ryuplaneswalker

2015-08-28, 08:17 PM

To the op one of the big reasons Frienship is Magic is popular is because it doesn't treat it's audience like complete pants on head morons.

Ravian

2015-08-29, 12:31 AM

Wanted to add my two cents on why pony cross-over fan art seems to be so prolific.

I'd say it's a couple reasons.

One: It's very distinct. One can make crossover art of anything, but for many that tends to just be as simple as drawing two characters from different shows in the same scene interacting. Sure you can get a little more creative by say drawing a character in an outfit distinctly from another series. (Say for instance, the Doctor in a Star Trek uniform), but pony crossovers are particularly noticeable, since they typically involve a character changing species entirely. Even without knowledge of what show it's referencing you can immediately recognize (that's a character from a show I know as a cartoon horse.)

Two: There's a lot of room for creativity that still exists within boundaries. Ponies in the show are divided into three distinct sub-species of Earth Pony (tend to be strong and down to earth, the badass normals of the show) Pegasus (tend to be fast, often aggressive, and have a lot to do with the weather) and Unicorns (tend to be intellectuals and magic users, often aristocratic in attitude) Right there you have an important question when deciding how to draw a character as a pony. Let's give an example, and say you want to draw batman as a pony. One of the big things here is that his pony type is very open for interpretation. On one hand, Batman's has a rich socialite background and is a genius, so Unicorn is a good consideration. On the other hand he's also basically a ninja, an amazing fighter and there's something appealing about a batman with actual batwings (some Pegasi have them in the show) so Pegasus is also a consideration. On the third hand one of Batman's biggest defining traits in the DC universe is that he has no powers or weird abilities, he's the titular badass normal, so Earth Pony is also a great consideration.

Pony type gives you a lot of thinking space when considering how a character would be if represented in the show's world.

Then of course there's the cutie mark, an image on their flanks that represents their special talent, essentially a place where the character is represented in one image. That is an exercise in itself as well. Some are fairly obvious. (Batman would probably have a bat for his cutie mark) but trying to think up a cutie mark for say Light Yagami from Death note is a nice creative excercise.

(I drew that a while back and eventually settled with a pen over an Apple, since the actual note would be a little too on the nose for a guy trying to keep that big a secret. (He's a unicorn by the way, L's an Earth Pony with an L for a cutie mark)) :smallbiggrin:

TLDR: Ponifications are just too fun to think about to not draw. For a couple years in my drama department I thought of pony versions of several musicals. (Sweeney Todd makes for a particularly vicious Unicorn. "At last! My horn is complete again!")

MLai

2015-08-29, 02:56 AM

I see plenty of people with pony avatars and games set in various pony universes. I guess I'm just clueless here, what is it about this show that's drawn so much attention and why has it translated into rpgs to such an extent? Curious minds want to know (and I'm told there may be sugar cube prizes for answers).
I'll try to cover some overlooked things from a fresh angle:

(1) Anthropomorphic animals fiction: This is an overlooked genre which many consider as fringe, but has a bigger hidden fanbase than anyone suspects. Remember that most Westerners grow up consuming this genre. In truth, it is a HUGE and HUNGRY niche market that isn't satisfied by one Disney movie per decade. Look at the mania started just by Avatar (movie), which was a flash in the pan only because a franchise didn't exist to keep the flame. Nobody really caters to this market, but when someone does and does it well, she makes mint. I have a friend who recently hit on this goldmine as a starting-out professional.

(2) Open-ended fantasy world: Someone on this forum had once put it very well... the reason MLP has a setting fanbase while Avatar TLA/LOK has none is because the former is open while the latter is closed, despite both being quality animation with quality characterization. There is much more freedom and potential in MLP as a fantasy world setting. It is also a setting which is much deeper (or can be much deeper) than realized at first glance. IMO the Greco-Roman motifs aren't just superficial; Equestria really is based on Plato's The Republic. It isn't just a sugary fairyland setting; rather it is a consistent Noblebright world but with areas of darkness and adventure.

On the fantasy side, magic is revealed just enough for us to glimpse a wide array of disciplines, without ever tying them down with actual nerd charts. Even though the studio is writing mainly for little girls, they mostly keep magic consistent enough as a tool that we can draw some broad lines, and deus ex machina magic is kept strictly to the universal force/artifact referred to in the title.

(3) Good characters, good humor, etc bla bla bla: The rest you know. It really is better than a lot of cartoons and anime out there. Can anime be good? Of course. But do you get tired of Japanese sentiments and storytelling techniques after a while even if they're good? Yeah. Variety is spice.