Dealing with "cheaters" in dnd.

[jangartharn1]

Title says it all I need a bit of help to expose a player in a campaign I play who bluffs all his stats and bonuses the problem is the DM is his brother so if I called him out it would be his word against mine so any thoughts?

[YossarianLives]

You don't mean... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357981-Can-you-cheat-at-D-amp-D)

EDIT: If I'm being serious I would suggest talking to the player and explaining that cheating ruins that game for you and the other players. If that fails (which is fairly likely) why can't you just show his character sheet to the DM and other players. If they see that his sheet is inconsistent with the rules it should be fairly obvious that he is guilty.

[AvatarVecna]

The only way to deal with cheating optimizers is a frothy mug of Orcus!

Sorry, had a flashback. Anyway, If you present it to the group the way MKF was suggested, it's not likely to change. Should that prove to be the case, I advise you to follow some really common advice on this site: vote with your feet. No gaming is better than bad gaming.

[Keltest]

You could just ask him to explain how he got that result. Either he can explain where the bonuses come and you have some evidence to bring up with the DM, or he cant, in which case... yeah.

[jangartharn1]

Ya the problem is that this isn't the first time he hasn't cheated and well I'm invited into their house each week to do dnd so if sadly I called him out he'd 1. Use books and stuff to cover his tracks and 2. The DM doesn't seem to care and also he's playing a ps ionic and I don't understand them fully but I pretty sure they don't have a spell that makes them do 30 damage in an aoe cone of 60 feet at level 2 so I'll keep looking for a solution.

[Red Fel]

Ya the problem is that this isn't the first time he hasn't cheated and well I'm invited into their house each week to do dnd so if sadly I called him out he'd 1. Use books and stuff to cover his tracks and 2. The DM doesn't seem to care and also he's playing a ps ionic and I don't understand them fully but I pretty sure they don't have a spell that makes them do 30 damage in an aoe cone of 60 feet at level 2 so I'll keep looking for a solution.

I find that one of the best ways to call out a cheater is to get excited. "Wow! That was awesome! Hey, can you show me that?" All you need to do is persuade him - in a gentle, friendly way - to show you in the book how he did what he did. Remind him that it was cool, suggest that you're envious and want to know how you can get a character to do that.

If it's based on a book section, read it yourself to make sure it does what he says. If it's based on a dice roll, watch the dice to make sure the numbers add up. If you can make everything transparent, you stand a chance of exposing the cheater.

As others have noted, though: Then what? Have you given thought to what will happen if/when you expose him? Do you think the DM, his brother, will be happy to discover this, or angry? And if angry, at whom? Do you expect this player to rejoice that somebody has corrected him?

Be prepared for somebody to be mad, is my point.

[jangartharn1]

Agreed I know In the end that somebody won't be happy but it's really bumming out the party that he's jacking kills and keeping us under his boot.

[jangartharn1]

Also I'm thinking the DM may be a bit surprised to think that his brother the guy who is always correcting people is actually cheating in the end I'm just hopeful he will stop and we can just get back to a normal campaign with him not raining terror on everyone.

[Threadnaught]

We're gonna have fun with this thing. Private chat with DM to test the waters?

Looks like the Rudisplorkers' Guild are just itching to get a hold of this thread.


You should have that chat with the DM, see if you can replicate the other players Character sheet and use it to call him out when he does something he shouldn't. Unless the DM isn't as reasonable as I'm hoping he is, if the DM is less than reasonable, find a game as opposed to the brotherly bragging session you're currently in.

[jangartharn1]

Who may I ask are these guild dudes?

[torrasque666]

Who may I ask are these guild dudes?
Its a running joke dealing with the last guy who kept going on and on about "cheating" when really, they were just better than him.


Rudisplorkers' Guild members

Threadnaught: The current High Rudisplorker, master of all Rudisplorking. The founder and leader of the Rudisplorkers' Guild.
Grod_The_Giant: The first Rudisplorker, slayer of the unjust.
Kazudo: The inventor of Rudisplorking, king of the sane.
Keledrath: The great Rudisplorkian, knower of Rudisplork.
FidgetySquirrel: The unknowable Rudisplorker, summoner of Orcus.
kellbyb: The clone Rudisplorker, doppelganger of Threadnaught.
ddude: Rudisplorkling of the Guild, the youngest of us, may his Rudisplorking be legendary.
Orcus: Summoner of Rudisplorkers, our eternal ally in the Rudisplorking against Cheaters.
Roland St. Jude: Let not his Rudisplork fool you, this is Orcus when he Rudisplorks.
Oddman80: Rudisplork Captain, Rudisplorker of Cheaters our foul enemies.
chaotic stupid: Rudisplorkrous judge, seeker of Rudisplork for all.
Torrasque666: Rudisplorker of the faith, true Rudisplorker
Irk: Adjudicator of Rudisplorking, Judge, Jury, and Rudisplorker
SaintRidley: Linguist and Invoker of Orcus of the Rudisplorker's Guild
golentan rudisplorking title currently being rudisplorked
MetaMyconid: no rudisplorker title as of yet
Hazrond: Proponent of Rudisplorkery in the Rudisplorker Guild

[jangartharn1]

Lol well I'm dumb don't mind me I'll admit I'm not the best at this kind of stuff like I said in an earlier post I'm just hopeful he will stop and it'll just get back to normal I've been running with this group for over 8 years.

[Threadnaught]

Who may I ask are these guild dudes?

Us?

We're optimizers who had an epiphany about how cheaters can be on both sides of the screen, with the worst cheater of all, being a DM drunk on power. We uh... Just do regular optimizing on these boards while referring to ourselves as Rudisplorkers. Rudisplorking is just another word meaning Optimizing, which is to improve something for a certain function. Like my Rudisplorking of Jib Pun to gain a Breath Weapon and Wings to be more "Dragon"-like.
Or eggynack's Rudisplorking of Orcy to make the most powerul possible "balanced" Druid without looping shenanigans. Balanced in this case refers to between its Spellcasting, Wildshape and Animal Companion Class Features. Don't tell him I called him a Rudisplorker.


We seem to all hold a special grudge for people who cheat at D&D.

[jangartharn1]

Hmm well I'm glad I can have some of you dudes on this thread. :)

[gadren]

Sorry to get all Dale Carnegie on you, but "calling him out" probably won't have a good result no matter. No matter what, the cheating player will be miffed at you, and either the DM still won't believe you or the DM will be mad, too. And gaming isn't fun when the DM is angry.

Like another poster said, act enthusiastic and ask how he did it. Then gently point out the cheat without accusing him. "Oh, hmm, I think you made a mistake there, dude. You're supposed to add your strength modifier to damage rolls, not your strength score."

If it happens multiple times, tell him you know how confusing it can be, and let him know you're happy to keep an eye out to help him out.

[jangartharn1]

That's good I'm hopeful but the problem with that is that he's a rule lawyer it's a good way for him to know the rules and cover the loop holes he uses but I appreciate the advice I'll try to do it the best way I can. :)

[ekarney]

The only way to deal with cheating optimizers is a frothy mug of Orcus!

Sorry, had a flashback. Anyway, If you present it to the group the way MKF was suggested, it's not likely to change. Should that prove to be the case, I advise you to follow some really common advice on this site: vote with your feet. No gaming is better than bad gaming.

Demand that he stop optimizing at once!

Sorry, that was the reason I joined/started being active on these forums.

Anyweasel. I agree with the above posters in that you should gently coax it out of him, it may even be a simple mistake where he's forgotten to write something down. I had a friend once ask me how I got an ability score so high and so I was going through it telling him, until I realised that I'd taken away a feat or class level or something but had forgotten to modify the ability score. Usually if something like that happens to me I simply lower it to the less optimal version until I can either figure out whether I'd forgotten to write down a class feature or if I'd actually removed something and forgotten to change it.

I currently have a player with a 10 - 20 threat range. We've both forgotten how he did it, but I remember that I was the one who actually told him how to do it since he'd expressed interest in a crit build.
So it comes down to the players and the party really, none of my players have an issue with his crit range and I'm sure it's at least mostly rules legal (I'm prone to handwaving things in my players benefit instead of looking them up).

[jangartharn1]

Well I'll admit some of it may be mistakes but I know at least he's bluffing his bonuses on concentration and his ac but your right I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Hrugner]

I agree "I'll have two levels of what he's progressing" is the best way to go. We have a cheater in our extended D&D group who honestly isn't that troublesome. He cheats the dice, but builds characters poorly enough that I consider it a wash and let it be.

Engage the player on how he built the character and how often he can do it, he may potentially be doing this within the rules as I remember 3.5 psychics getting up to weirdness. What was the ability called?

[jangartharn1]

Arcane bar or energy bar I don't remember exactly.

[RolkFlameraven]

This guy is playing a Psion? If I did read that correctly make sure he is only using 2 PP if you are level two. That's the big thing about Psionics, you can only use as many PP as you have levels on any given power.

If you don't obey that rule you CAN do things like what you say he is doing though you could well be tapped after one shot, but you are NOT playing by the rules and might not even know it.

[jangartharn1]

Good to know I'll keep that in mind. :-)

[RolkFlameraven]

Looking deeper into this, I really think its a more Power points used then manifester level problem that happens often if one doesn't read the rules.

You say his AC is too high, may I ask by how much? The Psionic 'mage armor' (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm)gets better as you put more points into it so that could well be the issue.

The concentration thing could be legal though, as

If you have 1 or more power points available, you can meditate to attempt to become psionically focused. The DC to become psionically focused is 20. Meditating is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. When you are psionically focused, you can expend your focus on any single Concentration check you make thereafter. When you expend your focus in this manner, your Concentration check is treated as if you rolled a 15. It’s like taking 10, except that the number you add to your Concentration modifier is 15. You can also expend your focus to gain the benefit of a psionic feat—many psionic feats are activated in this way.

But only if he is using his Focus for it, and only so long as he HAS his focus for it. Psionics is lots of fun and is, in some ways, better balanced then magic is but if you don't know all the rules it adds it can get broken fast.

[atemu1234]

Looks like the Rudisplorkers' Guild are just itching to get a hold of this thread.

The Pharaohsplorker reporting for duty.

Look, if he's causing issues, tell him what he's doing is wrong.

[jangartharn1]

Hmm the problem is that his real ac is 13 but he says its 19 and he has never meditated to increase his concentration and he's got 17 ranks in it supposedly but he's my friend so I'm not sure what to do he's always the rule lawyer and he used to keep everybody in line it made sad to learn that he was that what he went so much against it made me a bit melancholy to think he was kind of a hypocrite.:(

[RolkFlameraven]

I'm going to assume that you mint his concentration skill had a total of 17 not 17 ranks, because you can only have 5 ranks at level 2.

Herm, let me see here, 5 ranks, 4-5 from CON, 3 from skill focus, 2 from a masterwork tool (not sure what this would be but meh) and 3 from his psicrystal would give him a 17-18 so its possible. If its only while he is manifesting defensively he could be using combat casting with a lower con and not skill focus as well.

I have not idea WHY he would be built that way, but it is possible.

The AC is easier, if he is going up by 6 all that would take is 5 PP and he now has a few hours of a 19 AC, but its braking the rules as he can only spend 2 and that wouldn't get him anything better then using 1 would at +4 to his AC. This is only going to last 2 hours though, so if you simply ask your DM how long its been from when he woke up and/or used his power its most likely gone.

He could also be using 'shield' (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/forceScreen.htm) or something else to bump his AC but again time is the limiting factor and he might not be paying attention.

[jangartharn1]

Hmm well thanks rolk for filling me in on psionics I may need your help a bit more but I'm appreciative of every bodies help and I'm hoping for more advice. :)

[RolkFlameraven]

Hmm well thanks rolk for filling me in on psionics I may need your help a bit more but I'm appreciative of every bodies help and I'm hoping for more advice. :)

No problem, Psionics is something that is really easy to screw up, that ease is why it gets band so often and nine times out of ten its because someone didn't fallow the rules regarding them.

I tend to hope someone isn't cheating and is simply misinformed or lacking an understanding of how something works as cheating in a cooperative game is just sad. So I'm trying to see how the numbers work from what you have told us without him fudging things around. I still have no idea why he would have so much invested in concentration at level 2 though.

[jangartharn1]

So he can do massive damage and so when they roll will saves he has a massive chance to do full damage instead of halved.

[RolkFlameraven]

So he can do massive damage and so when they roll will saves he has a massive chance to do full damage instead of halved.

Wait, he is doing a hp damaging power/spell that has a will save, and when they make the save they can take full damage anyway?

That's odd, I know there is a way to make illusion magic stronger then real but that's about all I can think of for that kind of effect; but that doesn't mean there aren't more.

What is the name of the spell/power he is using?

[jangartharn1]

The problem is that I have no clue I'll look into it more but man is his character.......complicated I'll say that I'll fill you guys in more as it goes.

[Hazrond]

Its a running joke dealing with the last guy who kept going on and on about "cheating" when really, they were just better than him.



What im not a member anymore? or am i the forgotten rudisplorker?

[torrasque666]

What im not a member anymore? or am i the forgotten rudisplorker?
I literally just pulled from the post. Blame him. But I'll throw it in.

[Jarmen4u]

You don't mean... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357981-Can-you-cheat-at-D-amp-D)


Curse you for making me read that entire damned thread... jedipotter iswas a plague upon mankind.

[ben-zayb]

As already mentioned, spending more PP than your manifester level (in a Psion's case, usually equal to his Psion level) is one of the basic mistake that someone unfamiliar with psionics could make. Spending plenty of PP on Inertial Armor will surely give him a big boost, as that power scales well. Some powers that deal damage also scale well with PP.

[Keltest]

The only way to deal with cheating optimizers is a frothy mug of Orcus!


I don't get the Orcus jokes. I skimmed through the threat but nothing popped out at me. What am I missing?

[Threadnaught]

Decarudisplorkian reporting for duty.

I'm having trouble getting a race to split up into ten duplicates without making it silly.

In addition to that title, I'd suggest you add "Rudisplorking to the 10th power." To your sig immediately following it.


What im not a member anymore? or am i the forgotten rudisplorker?

You claim to be a member of the Rudisplorker Guild.
We at the Rudisplorkers' Guild have no affiliation with them, if you want to know who the Rudisplorker Guild are, go ask the Natural Rudisplorker eggynack if you can join the Disrudisplokians.


I currently have a player with a 10 - 20 threat range. We've both forgotten how he did it, but I remember that I was the one who actually told him how to do it since he'd expressed interest in a crit build.
So it comes down to the players and the party really, none of my players have an issue with his crit range and I'm sure it's at least mostly rules legal (I'm prone to handwaving things in my players benefit instead of looking them up).

Most things that improve Critical Threat Range don't stack and they explicitly state this.
I don't really see a problem with house ruling in that anything which improves Critical Threat Range, stacks with other things that improve it. At low levels it'll appear to unbalance the game in favour of TWF Crit machines, but against Crit resistant/immune enemies, it'll be business as usual.

Crits aren't as deadly after so many levels here as they are in say, PoKéMoN.



As for dealing with cheating players, possibly the best method would be to create a Halfling Monk that runs around punching people in the groin for being jerks. A victim of this character wouldn't know whether to laugh at how ridiculous the whole situation is or feel humiliated that they took part in a scene from Scrubs, which is the perfect result.



Edit:
I don't get the Orcus jokes. I skimmed through the threat but nothing popped out at me. What am I missing?

Summoning house rule.

[Segev]

The rule of which you need to be aware is that you cannot spend more power points on a given power than your ML. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifesterLevel)

So ask him how he got such high numbers, and ask for specifics.

What do you mean by he "keeps you under his thumb?"

[jangartharn1]

Like I said in the earlier post what I mean by that is since he's a psion if we don't do what he likes he will try to kill whoever doesn't do what he likes or thinks is ok.

[Segev]

Like I said in the earlier post what I mean by that is since he's a psion if we don't do what he likes he will try to kill whoever doesn't do what he likes or thinks is ok.

The DM is okay with this kind of tyranical PVP?

What happens if you kill his character in his sleep? If the whole party is annoyed by this (and I can imagine they would be), see if you can't get them all to work together to take him out.

It's noteworthy that enslaving people by threatening to kill them if they don't do what you demand is, in fact, Evil behavior, too.

[Mindtour]

The DM is okay with this kind of tyranical PVP?

What happens if you kill his character in his sleep? If the whole party is annoyed by this (and I can imagine they would be), see if you can't get them all to work together to take him out.

It's noteworthy that enslaving people by threatening to kill them if they don't do what you demand is, in fact, Evil behavior, too.
I have a strong feeling that any action taken against the Psionic player will just result in him making a new character made for the sole purpose of killing the offenders. We've seen it happen before, and this guy sounds like just the type to do so.

[Segev]

I have a strong feeling that any action taken against the Psionic player will just result in him making a new character made for the sole purpose of killing the offenders. We've seen it happen before, and this guy sounds like just the type to do so.

Perhaps, but if so, there are three possible responses:

1) Talk to the DM. "Dude, we don't like all this PvP. We used it to get rid of the PvPing PC, but now he's actively disrupting the game to do nothing but ruin it for the rest of us. Tell your brother to cut it out."

2) Take it in stride and make all of your new PCs designed to kill his new PC. Eventually, this cycle will so frustrate the DM that he'll end the game or put a stop to it.

3) Leave.



There's also (4): collude with the other players to no-sell the PvP actions of the troublesome player. Either tell him, "No, you don't," when he says he does something to your PC, or simply ignore him and pretend he didn't say anything. Keep playing your characters as if the action never happened.

If you go this route, do step 1, first. (In fact, do step 1 first, regardless.) This will either lead the DM to backing up the "no more PvP" rule, or to the DM ending the game because, effectively, he's not willing to run the game the players are playing: one where their PCs are alive and well despite the claims of the Psion's player that he's killed them.

(Treat it much as you would if the Psion's player declared that he cast wish and made your characters retroactively have done what he said he wanted them to. "No, you didn't.")

[jangartharn1]

Hmm that's another way to do it but I got to say if I got the party to work together to get rid of him and he made a revenge character wouldn't it be meta gaming to make a guy who is out for revenge for his old psionic?

[atemu1234]

I'm having trouble getting a race to split up into ten duplicates without making it silly.

In addition to that title, I'd suggest you add "Rudisplorking to the 10th power." To your sig immediately following it.

What does splitting up into ten beings have to do with me?

[Tiri]

If he's the kind of player who would make a revenge character, I doubt it would matter too much to him if it was metagaming or not. Anyway, there are ways to get around the metagaming aspect of a revenge character, if he is really worried about it. Which he probably is not.

[jangartharn1]

Hmm well I'm hopeful something comes up to our advantage because he's always played characters who like to be the boss and man is it annoying lol. :)

[Tiri]

Well, if it bothers you, you could always try talking to him directly.

[jangartharn1]

True but last time I talked to him about a thing like this he called me a douche so yea.

[Segev]

True but last time I talked to him about a thing like this he called me a douche so yea.

What's his brother's opinion about this behavior? Callnig people names for trying to bring up issues is childish at best. It sounds like he's a bully and needs to be told to cut it out.

You say the other players are also sick of it. You should get together with them and confront the brothers. I don't know what the DM's attitudes are, so you'll have to judge that, yourself, but you need to tell both of them that the Psion-player's attitude and behaviors are making the game unfun for the rest of you. If he isn't aware of it, the DM needs to know that his brother's being a bully. If he is aware of it, he needs to be told that he can't let his brother get away with this.

If they won't shape up - or the DM won't let the group kick out his brother if his brother won't shape up - then leave. All of you. Somebody else run a game. Invite the brothers (or just the DM-brother) if you like, but make it clear that bullying won't be tolerated.

They only can bully people who stick around and let them do so.

[jangartharn1]

Very true in the end it's just a game and i really like the family who runs this campaign they invite into their home each week and we done so for 8 years or so. So I'm hopeful that in the end he will realize what a punk he's being the problem I don't think it's just his character he is a bit of a control freak in real life and is kind of a jerk when it comes to dealing with real life problems.

[Segev]

If he is a bully, he needs to be stood up to. This is best done with support from others. You want to avoid setting it up as you attacking "the DM's brother," because you do not want the brother to feel obligated to defend his brother.

Therefore, again, talk to the other playres. Get their feel on things. Then talk to the DM about it, with or without the brother present. Finally, if you haven't already, take the whole group to talk to the brother.

Normally, I don't condone ganging up on people, but bullies kind-of need it. They have to be shown that not only will they be stood up to, but that they will have no support. And, on the off chance it doesn't register in his mind that he's being a bully, it will let him know that he's offending multiple people. It's amazing the capacity people have for dismissing individuals who complain as insignificant. "Whiners," "jerks," "people who just don't get me," "that one guy who's mad for no reason," whatever he tells himself, as long as he sees only one person at a time, he can assume that's the only one who's upset, and dismiss him as a "douche." Even if each person in the group has talked to him about it, they were each individually "being a douche." And the others are all fine with him, he thinks.

Show him he's wrong, and he can't pretend to himself that it's "just one person." Or that it is just one person: him. And he has no support for his behavior, and will not have his behavior tollerated.

[jangartharn1]

Hmm that's good. :)

[dascarletm]

Its a running joke dealing with the last guy who kept going on and on about "cheating" when really, they were just better than him.

I see that I'm omitted from the roster. :smallfrown:

Sadness.

[Nibbens]

...

2) Take it in stride and make all of your new PCs designed to kill his new PC. Eventually, this cycle will so frustrate the DM that he'll end the game or put a stop to it.

...


I'd actually advise against this one. While satisfying to the nth degree, it's not appropriate. The more we learn, this is an OOC problem, not a In Character problem - so dealing with it should be done with an out of game solution.

[Threadnaught]

What does splitting up into ten beings have to do with me?

1+2+3+4=10

Why do you think I settled on the name Atemuten?

The Rudisplorkers' Guild appreciates you for bringing the two numbers under the guise of one of them several times over.

[jangartharn1]

Hmm yea lucky I've been graced with a good DM lately and it's good so far I'm a rage Mage krynn Minotaur in the latest session we were chasing a physco path thorugh the words and before the sessions my dm told me to get webs it's a nice second level spell he said long story short dude didn't make it 10 feet out into the clearing then bam!!!! Nailed him to a tree my dm was crying with amusement.

[AvatarVecna]

I don't get the Orcus jokes. I skimmed through the threat but nothing popped out at me. What am I missing?

One of JediPotter's houserules (IIRC) was basically "every spell that summons a creature has a 1% chance of summoning Orcus instead", and people just kind of ran with it, turning it into a joke. To quote a sigged quote:


How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?

[torrasque666]

One of JediPotter's houserules (IIRC) was basically "every spell that summons a creature has a 1% chance of summoning Orcus instead", and people just kind of ran with it, turning it into a joke. To quote a sigged quote:
Nah, it was that it had a spell level% chance of misfiring. Whether that was summoning something else, something hostile to you, fizzling, etc, was up to the DM's discretion.

[Keltest]

One of JediPotter's houserules (IIRC) was basically "every spell that summons a creature has a 1% chance of summoning Orcus instead", and people just kind of ran with it, turning it into a joke. To quote a sigged quote:

Im pretty sure the random chance of summoning orcus (or other powerful demons/devils) was actually built into early edition mechanics. I would have to check.

[martixy]

From the uncanny accuracy and swift invasion of this thread I think the Rudisplorking guild is employing way too high level divination spells, allowing them an unfair head start in taking over said thread.

On a related note... OP: Be courteous and innocent - ask him how he did that, ask him to teach you his tricks, say you wanna get better at the game.
And if he falls for it, you can then casually start asking some uncomfortable question - again, only in the pursuit of gaining knowledge and mastery over this glorious game. Feel free to throw in some flattery over his own masterful command of the rules in making such a successful character.
Don't be as sarcastic as me. :smallbiggrin:

[jangartharn1]

Hmm alright I see that with his character my "friend" is using no a class that is kinda shrouded and is kinda using that to his advantage I'll talk to him and just see if he will listen to reasoning. :)

[torrasque666]

What class specifically? Do you remember?

[MatrixStone93]

I don't get that Orcus joke.

Also, if he fudges dice rolls, deal with it.

If he exploits loopholes to make smarter abd stronger characters, deal with it by throwing enemy pun-puns at him.

And if you don't want to give him ideas? Maybe the local Thief's Guild or Warrior's Guild starts paying attention.to the unudually powerful character, kidnapping him and putting him.in a gladiatorial arena or enslaving him inyo yhe mines. In the arena, he will face steadily more and more op foes, ending with a gestalt.

[AvatarVecna]

I don't get that Orcus joke.

It's an in-joke that's explained a bit further up-thread. The previous guy talking of cheating in D&D had a very different idea of what cheating was, and had made a bunch of player-hating houserules that "evened things up". One such houserule was that all spells had a (spell level) percent chance of screwing up and not doing as intended, with the exact result left up to the DM; one possible result of a botched summoning spell was to summon Orcus (who would presumably be very upset at being interrupted). It became a running joke here ITP, or at least in the 3.5 subforum.

To be clear, this guy called optimizing better than him "cheating" and referred to logic itself as a fallacious conspiracy (I think the exact line was something like "logic has no basis in the real world"). If you think reading through a thread like that would be amusing, it's linked in the second post.

[danzibr]

Maybe he's playing a Psion where he can spend as many PP as he wishes and his PP never deplete.

[atemu1234]

Maybe he's playing a Psion where he can spend as many PP as he wishes and his PP never deplete.

That's a fairly low-level trick that's possible in the rules.

[Gabrosin]

There are multiple problems here, with no easy solution.

The first problem is that one of the characters in this group is severely overshadowing the rest, or at least severely overshadowing you. If you're not having fun because your character is unnecessary to the story, then it doesn't really matter if it's because the other player is cheating or because they've simply optimized a character beyond everyone else. The imbalance is going to impact the game.

The easy solution to this problem is to get the DM to intervene. If it's cheating, the DM should squelch it. If it's over-optimization, the DM should adjust the game to compensate. There are a dozen different ways the DM could approach this, but here we hit the second problem: the DM is the problem player's brother.

This doesn't automatically mean he won't act. First, bring your concerns to the DM. Don't accuse the player of cheating. This is likely to set the DM against you in defense of his family. Instead, tell him that you're not feeling great about the current game, that you don't feel like the party would miss your character if you left because they never seem to need you. Express some small level of jealousy that the other character is so good, and frustration that you've tried to figure out how it works and can't. The implication that something out of bounds is going on should be enough. In the same way, you're not threatening to leave, just laying the groundwork. Some DMs see the party overcoming their challenges and don't focus on whether or not each player is enjoying himself or herself.

If the DM is unwilling or unable to do anything about the dominant player, you have only one resource left to you: the other players. So second, ask the other players how they're feeling, away from the table. You may find that the other players don't care. After all, the story is progressing, the party is advancing... maybe they're just happy to be along for the ride. Or maybe they're useful in other ways. I've had players who didn't care what happened in combat as long as they didn't die, because they wanted to be the skill monkey or the social face and everything else was meaningless to them. Combats were just the things that interrupted the story flow, not the central focus, and if their bodyguards (the rest of the party) could handle them easily, that was perfect!

But you might find that the other players share your concerns. Most D&D players won't accept actual cheating, and high levels of optimization are indistinguishable from cheating to the average player. Moreso, most D&D players are put off by the threat of PVP even if the DM allows it. See whether they enjoy being one misstep away from having to take on this guy in combat, even though he's their "friend".

If the rest of the players are with you, then step three is confront the DM openly. Tell him that all of you share the concerns you previously brought to him, and there's not much point in continuing the current game under those conditions. Suggest a new story, perhaps a different DM, maybe even a different game system. It's important that you phrase it as wanting to do something else, more enjoyable, with the group... not that you're trying to split up the eight years of gaming you've all been doing together.

Once you reach this stage with no resolution, you have to be prepared for step four, leave the game. Encourage your other players to join you, but be prepared to walk away even if they don't. No gaming is better than bad gaming. If your friends have any level of maturity, they won't simply proceed with the game without you, or start excluding you from other things because of it... but that's a very real possibility.

Good news, though: there are lots of other gaming groups out there, without needing to worry about the DM's overpowered brother.

[danzibr]

Maybe he's playing a Psion where he can spend as many PP as he wishes and his PP never deplete.

That's a fairly low-level trick that's possible in the rules.
Couple things:

The spend-as-many-PP-as-he-wishes thing is impossible to do, right? I mean, at level 2 if he has 7 PP, there's no way (that I know of) to let him spend 7 PP with every power.

Also, I know of PP recovery tricks, but... at level 2? Ya know, I wonder what the lowest level to do this is. Maybe 1, hrm.

[ben-zayb]

That's a fairly low-level trick that's possible in the rules.
You mean a low level trick to either bypass ML limits or get an arbitrarily high ML? I mean, sure, the 2nd is technically doable, but I doubt that's in play here.