Am I reading the lance rules right?

[Extra Anchovies]

Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.

Spirited Charge (Combat)
Your mounted charge attacks deal a tremendous amount of damage.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat, Ride- By Attack.
Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).

Spirited Charge doesn't have anything saying that the triple from a lance is instead of the normal double from a lance. Nor does it have a "Normal" section, so it doesn't override existing rules.

This means you double lance damage, and then triple it, which follows the normal multiplier rules to get 4x damage from a lance on a mounted charge.

Is this how people normally play mounted charging, or is it generally assumed that spirited charge is meant to override the standard lance damage multiplier for an end result of triple damage?

Bonus:
A character with one Mythic tier in the Marshal path can select Mounted Marshal, an ability which, among other things, does this:

You can expend one use of mythic power while charging with your mount to deal double damage to the target of your charge (or triple damage if you're wielding a lance).
This stacks with the 4x we already have in the same way as Spirited Charge, since they're worded the same way. This gets us 6x damage on the first attack after a mounted charge. Cavalier 20 stacks this up again to deal octuple damage on a mounted charge. Are there any other mounted charge damage multipliers floating around anywhere?

One last question: when multiplying the damage from a mounted charge, are you supposed to roll damage multiple times, or just roll once and multiply the final result?

[Sagetim]

Spirited Charge doesn't have anything saying that the triple from a lance is instead of the normal double from a lance. Nor does it have a "Normal" section, so it doesn't override existing rules.

This means you double lance damage, and then triple it, which follows the normal multiplier rules to get 4x damage from a lance on a mounted charge.

Is this how people normally play mounted charging, or is it generally assumed that spirited charge is meant to override the standard lance damage multiplier for an end result of triple damage?

Bonus:
A character with one Mythic tier in the Marshal path can select Mounted Marshal, an ability which, among other things, does this:

This stacks with the 4x we already have in the same way as Spirited Charge, since they're worded the same way. This gets us 6x damage on the first attack after a mounted charge. Cavalier 20 stacks this up again to deal octuple damage on a mounted charge. Are there any other mounted charge damage multipliers floating around anywhere?

One last question: when multiplying the damage from a mounted charge, are you supposed to roll damage multiple times, or just roll once and multiply the final result?

What I always used to do was take the first roll and multiply it because it's easier to do math than roll and count dice. But the rules as written are apparently to roll extra sets of dice and what not. So there's that.

Don't forget that lances also have a critical chance, and the critical would add another stack of multiplier to this charge.

I generally interpret the rules to be: Charge with lance is x2. Charge with lance crit deals x3. Charge with lance and spirit charge is x3. Crit charge with lance and spirited charge is x4. Use the normal stacking rules for multipliers (so a x2 gives +1 to the stack, while a x4 would give +3 to the stack. Such that if you somehow had a x2 damage and a x3 damage and a x6 damage that would come out to a x2+2+5= x9. Not x2x2x6=x24.

[Extra Anchovies]

What I always used to do was take the first roll and multiply it because it's easier to do math than roll and count dice. But the rules as written are apparently to roll extra sets of dice and what not. So there's that.

Can you give me a rules citation supporting your statement that you're supposed to roll lance damage multiple times and add the results together? The lance description only says "double damage", and unless otherwise specified that would mean exactly double - i.e. roll once and multiply by two.


Don't forget that lances also have a critical chance, and the critical would add another stack of multiplier to this charge.

I generally interpret the rules to be: Charge with lance is x2. Charge with lance crit deals x3. Charge with lance and spirit charge is x3. Crit charge with lance and spirited charge is x4. Use the normal stacking rules for multipliers (so a x2 gives +1 to the stack, while a x4 would give +3 to the stack. Such that if you somehow had a x2 damage and a x3 damage and a x6 damage that would come out to a x2+2+5= x9. Not x2x2x6=x24.

FYI, lances have an x3 crit multiplier. Regardless, "crit multiplier" isn't an exactly correct term, because you aren't multiplying damage - you're rolling it more than once and totalling it up.

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together.
Since it's not actually a multiplier (even though it's called a multiplier), it doesn't follow the multiplier stacking rules - a mounted charge with a lance deals double damage, and if you score a critical hit you roll damage, multiply by two, repeat that two more times, and add all three multiplied damage rolls together. It will average to 6x damage, but it won't be exact because critical hits don't actually multiply damage, they just function in a manner that is very similar to multiplying damage.

[Ssalarn]

I generally interpret the rules to be: Charge with lance is x2. Charge with lance crit deals x3. Charge with lance and spirit charge is x3. Crit charge with lance and spirited charge is x4.

Not quite. Regular lance deals double damage on a mounted charge. Spirited Charge bumps that to triple. If you crit, the lance's ×3 crit bumps that to ×5, not x4.

[Sagetim]

Not quite. Regular lance deals double damage on a mounted charge. Spirited Charge bumps that to triple. If you crit, the lance's ×3 crit bumps that to ×5, not x4.

I thought the lance had a x2? Oh, nope...x3, in both pathfinder and 3.5. So yeah, that would bump the critical spirited charge lance damage to x5 instead of x4.

Edit: To answer Anchovies- that's one way of reading doubling. I normally interpret the word doubling to be a verbal means of saying x2. If you want to interpret it your way, I won't say you're wrong. Just make sure the DM of whatever game you are in interprets things the same way. Because I prefer to just multiply things instead of rolling repeatedly, there isn't some difference for me between doubling and having a x2 multiplier.

[Extra Anchovies]

Edit: To answer Anchovies- that's one way of reading doubling. I normally interpret the word doubling to be a verbal means of saying x2. If you want to interpret it your way, I won't say you're wrong. Just make sure the DM of whatever game you are in interprets things the same way. Because I prefer to just multiply things instead of rolling repeatedly, there isn't some difference for me between doubling and having a x2 multiplier.

Yeah, double means multiply by two; I think we're in agreement that for mounted charging lances, you roll damage once and then multiply. But a critical hit literally doesn't multiply damage, even though there is such a thing as a "critical multiplier" (silly, but true). Rolling twice and adding the results is, well, addition. Since you are very likely adding two different numbers, it's not multiplication. Since you're not multiplying, the multiplier stacking rules don't apply to extra damage from critical hits.

Regardless, the main point of this thread: do people (or at least those who read this thread) play with Spirited Charge producing triple lance damage on a mounted charge, or quadruple? RAW actually supports the latter but if the general opinion that mounted charging is somewhat overpowered compared to most other combat styles is in the context of triple damage from Spirited Charge, then... I don't know. Then I'll know that mounted charging is more OP than people think it is. I'll probably end up adding a fix to my list of houserules.

[Spore]

Regardless, the main point of this thread: do people (or at least those who read this thread) play with Spirited Charge producing triple lance damage on a mounted charge, or quadruple?

I do triple damage with my Cavalier/Paladin.


RAW actually supports the latter but if the general opinion that mounted charging is somewhat overpowered compared to most other combat styles

Hold it right there. A horse is large and can't maneuver well in dungeons, taverns, small fortresses, the mountains... you name it. A smart enemy will position themselves where the charging knight can't reach them. Spells still reign supreme. If the charge hits and if the enemy is not protected by spells it's really his own fault.

And the difference between 3x and 4x damage is non-existant for CR appropriate fights. Usually our DM has to up the challenge by 4-6 levels when the damage difference begins to matter (for a class that gets extra damage from features like Challenge or Smite at least).

[Extra Anchovies]

Hold it right there. A horse is large and can't maneuver well in dungeons, taverns, small fortresses, the mountains... you name it. A smart enemy will position themselves where the charging knight can't reach them. Spells still reign supreme. If the charge hits and if the enemy is not protected by spells it's really his own fault.

So your point here is that A) because spells are stronger than mounted charging, mounted charging can't be overpowered relative to, for example, TWF or sword and board, and that B) martial characters don't ever matter anyways, since all enemies will be immune because spells?

Wheeling Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/wheeling-charge-combat-local) plus eventually a flying mount (or a mount that can ignore difficult terrain in some other way, e.g. the mount of a 5th-level Ghost Rider Cavalier) renders terrain and target placement mostly irrelevant (or at least no more relevant for any other character who might need to move during combat, i.e. non-archers), and playing a small race with a medium mount resolves tight quarters issues.

ETA: Any animal companion or mount can ignore difficult terrain when charging by taking Improved Unarmed Strike and Dragon Style.

[Andezzar]

Pathfinder still has the weird multiplication rule (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Multiplying). So a critical hit with a lance from a mounted character with spirited charge is *5.

The rules also clearly state that multiplying damage is done by rolling multiple times and adding the results, not rolling once and multiplying the result:
Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

[Extra Anchovies]

Pathfinder still has the weird multiplication rule (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Multiplying). So a critical hit with a lance from a mounted character with spirited charge is *5.

The rules also clearly state that multiplying damage is done by rolling multiple times and adding the results, not rolling once and multiplying the result:

Thanks for digging that up. It turns out that when you're multiplying damage, you aren't actually multiplying; you're just adding several times :smallsigh: So a lance crit adds +200% base damage (on a spirited charge, that brings it from 4x to 6x, or 3x to 5x if you decide that in your games Spirited Charge overrides the standard lance multiplier). Good to know.

ETA: The line you quoted (specifically the bit about critical hits) doesn't actually appear on the linked SRD page, but it is on CRB p. 179. FYI.

[Spore]

So your point here is that A) because spells are stronger than mounted charging, mounted charging can't be overpowered relative to, for example, TWF or sword and board, and that B) martial characters don't ever matter anyways, since all enemies will be immune because spells?

My main point is that an ubercharger still stays in his tier. Sure it is up there with THF and better than TWFing and Sword and Board. But I intended to watch the bigger picture not the balance in the tiers uberchargers are prevalent in. I want to look at the average adventuring party that has a huge mixture of different tiered classes.

[Andezzar]

ETA: The line you quoted (specifically the bit about critical hits) doesn't actually appear on the linked SRD page, but it is on CRB p. 179. FYI.No it doesn't. It's also a subsection here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Damage) in the PF SRD.

[Vhaidara]

Anchovies, multiplication is addition.
2*3 is also 2+2+2.
(1d10+17)*5 is 5d10+85, functionally. And j very much favor the 5d10, because dice are really fun. Nothing quite like critting on a vital strike build.

[Andezzar]

2d6 is not the same as (1d6)*2. The former produces results from 2 to 12 with 7 being the most likely, the latter produces 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, or 12 with all results being equally probable.
It gets a bit more complicated if the initial number of dice is greater than one but still rolling only once produces more swing in the numbers.