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Mad Wizard
2007-05-06, 05:25 PM
So, I recently played in a campaign with a new DM who is a friend of mine. Now, he agreed with the consensus that casters are generally overpowered. So, he decided to balance them. This I have no problem with, but it's the way in which he balanced them. He decided to give every monster SR. He also limited us to core only. We were starting from level 1.

With the rule implemented, arcane casters became almost useless, especially at first level. He seemed to randomly decide what SR to give monsters, and there wasn't much we could do beyond Spell Penetration. I, playing the cleric, just made him a battle cleric, and I was fine, but two other members of the party, playing wizards, found most of their spells to miss, be resisted, or fail the SR check.

I realize that spellcasters need to be balanced, but with universal SR? And at level 1? What are your thoughts?

Caelestion
2007-05-06, 05:30 PM
Well, CR +10 is a suitable "blanket" SR. In answer to your question, that houserule was obviously not fair. One of the Unearthed Arcana suggestions was to make all energy spells SR: No so as to encourage people to use the blasting spells and not the gimmick spells so much.

JaronK
2007-05-06, 05:30 PM
Without knowing what the SR is, it's impossible to say if it's balanced.

Giving casters a 25% permanent spell failure would be slightly more reasonable, but it sucks when your main abilities are so unreliable. Then again, fighters don't hit with every swing, so why should casters hit with every spell (ignoring the touch attack spells here).

I don't think it's the best solution. Remember, many spells don't allow SR anyway.

JaronK

brian c
2007-05-06, 05:34 PM
Well, it depends what their SR is. If it's equal to their HD or so, that shouldn't be too unbalancing (d20+caster level needs to be greater than 2? no problem). If he gave them like 20 spell resistance, then you have an issue. I'd suggest looking into Arcane Mastery, from Complete Arcane, lets you take 10 on caster level checks (such as the one to overcome SR) and it has no prerequisites.

ocato
2007-05-06, 05:36 PM
Well, you aren't limited in how many swings you get per day. If you were limited to 4 regular attack attempts and 3 power attack attempts a day, that might hurt. Giving spells a big miss chance is sorta going to hurt. I'd suggest a giving the enemies better fort and will saves. This means that the caster will be forced to rely more on blast spells than save-or-pwn'd spells.

Zaeron
2007-05-06, 05:38 PM
Casters aren't overpowered at first level. In fact, they're significantly underpowered until fifth or so. At least in my opinion. At the very least, his rules are more suited to 5-7th level or higher, and I still think there are much better ways to balance casters than a blanket mechanic like that.

The person above who compared spell resistance to fighters missing is wrong. There's already a mechanic for spells to miss, it's called a saving throw or a touch attack.

This is more like the fighter needing to roll to hit, then the enemy getting a fortitude save to ignore the attack completely, even though the fighter hit. Oh, and the fortitude save isn't set at a specific number, it's whatever number the DM wants.

Sounds fun, huh.

Mad Wizard
2007-05-06, 05:39 PM
Well, the issue with Arcane Mastery and other things, including a lot of the SR ignoring spells, is that they're non-core, and we were limited to core only. It seemed like they had around 10 + CR or so.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-06, 05:40 PM
He said core only.

And those wizards should have made the DM's life hell. SR is really only a mild annoyance. Many good spells don't allow it or can be used creatively to avoid it (don't disintegrate the monster, hit the ground under him).

But for the first 10 or so levels what the DM did was unbalanced. Almost every spell that is even worth casting is SR: Yes.

clericwithnogod
2007-05-06, 05:56 PM
I realize that spellcasters need to be balanced, but with universal SR? And at level 1? What are your thoughts?

What were the problems encountered in your game that prompted this change?

Page 14 of the DMG lists a set of questions DMs should ask themselves before changing a rule. This change looks pretty shoddy when when answering those questions based upon the effect you've stated this rule has had.

You don't need to make mechanical changes to balance spellcasters. Plenty of people play the game without making any such changes. Some people encounter problems or situations with some playstyles that may make such a change seem attractive, but it isn't a universal need, and often does nothing but make gameplay less fun.

clericwithnogod
2007-05-06, 06:07 PM
Sorry, Double Post

jlousivy
2007-05-06, 07:01 PM
i agree with tippy. lvl 1 the major damage dealing spell is magic missile.

OH NO HE CAN DEAL 3D4+3 DAMAGE/DAY!?!
must.... give..... SR....

seriously, the best option(in my opinion) is
1. early levels--- no change
2. mid-levels--- mild SR, ie: 1-5 would be failed
3. big baddies-- decent SR ie: 1-10 would be failed (so you can't take a 10)

otherwise you'll end up with a ton of no SR spells all game, and the next game you play with him all baddies with have SR and higher saves

Lemur
2007-05-06, 09:39 PM
As others have said, wizards aren't overpowered at 1st level. They don't actually get overpowered until sometime after level 10. Before that, they're more or less in balance, with some give or take.

It's also important to note that this DM's houserule, fair or not (I don't think it is), it doesn't accomplish it's goal very well. As you said yourself, you're not really affected as a battle cleric by the changes, since the core of your abilities are based around buffing and healing. By the same token, druids aren't affected much by the change either.

So really, it just nerfs casters who rely on direct offense magic, like sorcerers and wizards.

I don't really have any good suggestions for mechanically dealing with caster power, but maybe it would be better to deal with it using roleplaying restrictions. For example, if magic is persecuted, you can only use it safely where other people can't see you. Or possibly gaining caster levels requires some sort of sacrifice out of the character, which become increasingly severe the higher they get in levels, making it unsafe after a certain point.

TheOOB
2007-05-07, 01:16 AM
Spellcasters acually are not all that difficult to fix, just time consuming. Heres a few things you can try

-Weed through the core spell list, take out any spell that is simply too powerful(not just polymorph and such, there are a lot of spells that dont need to be around), and change the spells that need to be changed(for example, gate without the calling function is perfectally fine)

-Allows spells from other sources on a case-by-case basis.

-Only allow spontaneous casters(big one)

-Give spellcaster MAD(I suggest int/wis for spell per day on arcane and divine spells, and cha on save DC)

-Make some of the spell-per day/spells known class abilities (to discourage PrCs without losses).

Dervag
2007-05-07, 01:39 AM
He said core only.

And those wizards should have made the DM's life hell. SR is really only a mild annoyance. Many good spells don't allow it or can be used creatively to avoid it (don't disintegrate the monster, hit the ground under him).

But for the first 10 or so levels what the DM did was unbalanced. Almost every spell that is even worth casting is SR: Yes.Since the campaign started at first level, and since the wizards will have to survive level after level of fighting monsters they can only affect about half the time, this is not fair.

JaronK
2007-05-07, 03:51 AM
Actually, Wizards are quite strong at level 1... sleep and glitterdust come to mind.

JaronK

Caelestion
2007-05-07, 04:31 AM
But compared to all those butch fighters and barbarians, they get hammered.

The Glyphstone
2007-05-07, 04:34 AM
Be a sorcerer, cast nothing but Melf's Acid Arrow. All day. Use metamagic feats to put it into higher level spell slots too.

(That is, once you can cast MAA, I think you're too low lvl for that now. I agree, this is an excessively harsh nerf.

Caelestion
2007-05-07, 04:35 AM
Isn't that just an indication that Melf's Acid Arrow is too powerful?

Toliudar
2007-05-07, 04:39 AM
Melf's Acid Arrow is not an overpowered spell. I think Glyphstone's point was that it's one of the few low-level SR:No spells in core.

Caelestion
2007-05-07, 04:42 AM
Ah. Well, cutting out the various "Orb of" spells is a good idea. Ranged touch attack, SR: no, energy spells under Conjuration? Don't make me hurl.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-05-07, 04:42 AM
Be a sorcerer, cast nothing but Melf's Acid Arrow. All day. Use metamagic feats to put it into higher level spell slots too.Rather, stick entirely with Conjuration and party buffs. Grease still works, Glitterdust still works, Web still works, Stinking Cloud still works, Evard's Black Tentacles still works... Conjuration is the ticket to SR-less victory.

Moik
2007-05-07, 05:03 AM
In all the parties I've been in and DMed for, I've only seen blaster-casting in a wizards-only Dragonlance campaign. Generally speaking, the attacking monsters is left to the fighters while the mages dole out buffs, detect things, debuff, etc. They'll have only a handful of attack spells. What we find makes wizards/sorcs powerful is their ability to find what the DM has set up ahead of them so they can plan ahead as well. SR wouldn't fix that.

If you find the SR thing is throwing you off, just spend s bit of time getting different spells, you can likely work within it. I can't say if it's fair or not, but it looks kinda pointless to me.

But seriously, a Wizard/Sorceror CAN be a big player in a fight at low-levels with things like the previously mentioned Sleep. It'll put down 4HD of creatures, which is basically the whole encounter at that point (for sure half of it). You go out into the wilderness and get one encounter a day, you're basically charging up free XP.

But, since the wizard/sorc already had finite-use spells, it doesn't seem right. The mage's power is balanced by other stats like his HP. The mage needs to be able to plow down enemies fast or he dies. Generally speaking, anyone's tactics are "kill the mage first", and unless you can block the hall, that little passle of kobolds is heading right for you; they don't have to stop to fight the warrior.

Duff
2007-05-07, 05:42 AM
It is easy to wind back a caster, just don't let them rest! a night encounter or two and every squirrel that raids the camp supplies is a disturbed night. Rats in the goodies, a goblin arrow at max range then run, Giant bat raids, time pressure (If you stop to rest, the hostages die/villains get away).

This rule really hits the battle spell slingers (invokers, War Magi etc) so making conjurers, “Toolkit Magi” and other uses of magic relatively powerful.

Adding SR seems to lack elegance unless there is an explanation of why/how. Do NPC casters have it? Do you?

Shinkoro
2007-05-07, 06:36 AM
I don't think its fair. It really does not fix anything to me either.

As a example a friend who played a wizard never cast a direct offensive spell for 8 levels. He did nothing but buff the party. He improved invis casters, polymorphed fighters into trolls and enlarged them, buffed str and dex, cast enchanted weapons, rage, protection from evils, blur and summoned abit. It totaly unbalanced the game. Eventually the DM killed his wizard pretty blatantly, then retired as DM when he made a new wizard. At low levels the buffs I think are more powerful then a 6d6 fireball or a few 1d4+1 missles.

Dervag
2007-05-07, 09:49 AM
It is easy to wind back a caster, just don't let them rest! a night encounter or two and every squirrel that raids the camp supplies is a disturbed night. Rats in the goodies, a goblin arrow at max range then run, Giant bat raids, time pressure (If you stop to rest, the hostages die/villains get away).Treating squirrel attacks as 'disturbed night' is stretching it; it's about as ugly a solution as giving all the monsters Spell Resistance.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-07, 09:53 AM
Treating squirrel attacks as 'disturbed night' is stretching it; it's about as ugly a solution as giving all the monsters Spell Resistance.

...and about as obnoxious a DM tactic as giving everything unbeatable SR. You might as well just say, "Casters are banned. Play something else." At least then your players get to keep all their class features.

Indon
2007-05-07, 09:56 AM
Honestly, if I was going to 'nerf' magic in a campaign, rather than that SR thing, I'd use a spell point system, and then increase the costs, particularly at high levels and for high-level spells.

Telonius
2007-05-07, 12:22 PM
Question: If your human enemy gets SR, does your human character get SR, too? If so, then yes, it's "fair," in that it's evenly applied.

Regardless of that, I don't think it's "smart" or "wise." There are better ways to tone down arcane casters, and some of them have been mentioned.

Dausuul
2007-05-07, 12:30 PM
I don't think its fair. It really does not fix anything to me either.

As a example a friend who played a wizard never cast a direct offensive spell for 8 levels. He did nothing but buff the party. He improved invis casters, polymorphed fighters into trolls and enlarged them, buffed str and dex, cast enchanted weapons, rage, protection from evils, blur and summoned abit. It totaly unbalanced the game. Eventually the DM killed his wizard pretty blatantly, then retired as DM when he made a new wizard. At low levels the buffs I think are more powerful then a 6d6 fireball or a few 1d4+1 missles.

Also at high levels. Direct damage is the least of a wizard's weapons.

ghost_warlock
2007-05-08, 11:58 AM
Actually, Wizards are quite strong at level 1... sleep and glitterdust come to mind.

JaronK

Psst. Glitterdust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm) is a 2nd-level spell. Wizards can't have it until 3rd level. :smallbiggrin:

Saph
2007-05-08, 04:24 PM
So, I recently played in a campaign with a new DM who is a friend of mine. Now, he agreed with the consensus that casters are generally overpowered. So, he decided to balance them. This I have no problem with, but it's the way in which he balanced them. He decided to give every monster SR. He also limited us to core only. We were starting from level 1.

As JaronK said, it depends on how high the SR is and at what level you're playing at. At low levels, any extra SR is a bad idea, as spellcasters are weak enough already. It's only at the high levels that spellcasters get really broken. But even then the spellcasters can just fall back on no-SR spells, though, so it doesn't sound like all that great a rule. By the time spellcasters are powerful enough to need nerfing, they can get around SR anyway.


And those wizards should have made the DM's life hell. SR is really only a mild annoyance. Many good spells don't allow it or can be used creatively to avoid it (don't disintegrate the monster, hit the ground under him).

But for the first 10 or so levels

Most people play at exactly those first 10 or so levels, partly because spellcasters are so overpowered above that. Advice that assumes that people are playing at level 17+ isn't much use.

- Saph

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-08, 06:05 PM
Most people play at exactly those first 10 or so levels, partly because spellcasters are so overpowered above that. Advice that assumes that people are playing at level 17+ isn't much use.

- Saph

There are plenty of alternative uses for spells that allow SR and aren't high level.

But that is also moot.

If my DM ever instituted a houserule like this he would be facing Pun-Pun in about 1 minute. Asinine DM actions should be met with outrageous player actions done for the sole purpose of ruining the game very quickly so that you can restart with a DM who isn't an ass.

Caelestion
2007-05-08, 06:15 PM
Or you could be less hostile, Tippy, and stop trying to make everything in the game a contest between the players and the DM. Even Pun-pun can be splatted by "Rocks fall, everyone dies", if necessary.

Arbitrarity
2007-05-08, 06:18 PM
A player in a campaign here is going to play Pun-Pun.

Not to abuse it or anything (lol) but to prevent railroading ;P.

Anyway, SR for all creatures was a recommendation for a caster nerf I gave to one of my DM's.

He's the one who thought of the random ASF :o.

Actually, if rocks fall on Pun-Pun, his foresight warns him, he uses celerity, and goes into the synchronity infinite action loop, disintigrating boulders one by one.

Or, he could teleport, but that's boring.

Pun-Pun makes the classic ability: "Pun-Pun wins".

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-08, 06:23 PM
Or you could be less hostile, Tippy, and stop trying to make everything in the game a contest between the players and the DM. Even Pun-pun can be splatted by "Rocks fall, everyone dies", if necessary.
Play with me sometime. I'm an excellent player so long as you don't add new houserules right in the middle of the game, attempt to justify Rule 0 actions as me or another player incorrectly interpreting RAW, or go rock falls everyone dies when the party manages to come up with something that makes your entire adventure moot in about 2 minutes.

If I was in the OP's game (and it was on the boards) I woudl feel justified in doing whatever I felt like if the DM sprang a housruels liek thsi on us after teh game started. But if he todl us abotu it i nadvance then I wouldn't even apply.

Now if this was a RL game I woudl talk with the DM out of game first for a while and if that didn't work I woudl most likely play a Swordsage or Warblade. But if we were in the middle of a campaign and he just decided that we where playing with this new rule then I woudl again feel justified in doing whatever I felt like.

As for player vs. DM, if the DM starts it then he can live with the results.

Saph
2007-05-08, 06:30 PM
If my DM ever instituted a houserule like this he would be facing Pun-Pun in about 1 minute. Asinine DM actions should be met with outrageous player actions done for the sole purpose of ruining the game very quickly so that you can restart with a DM who isn't an ass.

Are you deliberately giving out bad advice here? Unless your DM is extremely weak-willed (in which case he probably shouldn't be DMing anyway), threatening him is one of the stupidest things you can possibly do.

Player: "You'd better not make me angry, or I'll make my character into Pun-Pun and ruin your game!"
DM: "Okay."
Player: "Fine, you asked for it. I cast-"
DM: *rolls dice* "Ooh, too bad. Your character suffers a spontaneous heart attack and drops dead."
Player: "You can't do that!"
DM: "I just did."
Player: "That's not fair! Waaah!" *goes home*

. . . and yes, I've seen this happen, more or less. It's amazing how many players think that they can somehow 'beat' the DM in-game.

- Saph

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-08, 06:45 PM
I am blessed with good DMs in RL, and online I will just quit if its a bad DM. SO I don't have this problem.

And becoming Pun-Pun doesn't require you casting a spell to start it off.

Caelestion
2007-05-08, 07:50 PM
And Pun-pun can still be eaten by the Tarrasque, attacked by a Phane or a Prismatic Great Wyrm or simply die of an unavoidable, massive heart attack. If you don't want to play, no one is forcing you to, but you simply cannot beat any DM with any spine whatsoever.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-08, 08:10 PM
I'm sorry but Big T and A Prismatic Great Wrym wouldn't last a second against Pun-Pun. He has an arbitrarily high divine rank. And can make any ability he wants at will as a free action. Including abilities such as "Any prismatic dragon that contemplates attacking Pun-Pun instantly falls over dead."

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-08, 08:14 PM
And Pun-pun can still be eaten by the Tarrasque, attacked by a Phane or a Prismatic Great Wyrm or simply die of an unavoidable, massive heart attack. If you don't want to play, no one is forcing you to, but you simply cannot beat any DM with any spine whatsoever.Yah, I think the point of busting out Pun-Pun in a case like that is to

A) be a pain in the butt, for revenge

B) make it really obvious that the DM is using his powers of fiat to kill you/screw you over.

Fishy
2007-05-08, 08:38 PM
Hi guys. Game. We're here to have fun, not to deliberately screw over our friends.

If you are afraid of casters wrecking your game, you can, you know, talk to them about what wrecks games, and try and reach a mutual understanding.

If your DM institutes a really weird houserule, do't meta/powergame your way around it: talk about why it's there, what it's supposed to do, and wether or not it's increasing everyone's fun.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-08, 09:01 PM
All monsters have insane SR? Fine. I'll roll a Sorcerer anyways. Even Core (although using Non-Core can make this flat broken).

Halfling Pal2/Sorc6/EK10/AM2

Mastery of Shaping and Arcane Reach are my two High Arcana.

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (EK bonus feat), Still Spell, Silent Spell, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Conjuration), Spell Focus (doesn't matter), Eschew Materials

Equipment to purchase: Metamagic Rods: Quicken, Enlarge, Cloak of Charisma +6, +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt

Spell List:

1st level: Mage Armor (if you have someone in the party who doesn't use armor, like a Monk), True Strike, Enlarge Person, Grease, Summon Monster 1 Comprehend Languages (if everyone in your party wears armor)
If you have someone who doesn't use armor, they will love Mage Armor. True Strike for hitting with your Rays. Grease doesn't allow SR. Enlarge Person on your party tank. Summon a wolf to help with flanking and to take damage.

2nd level: Resist Energy, Melf's Acid Arrow, Web, Rope Trick, Glitterdust
If someone wants stats, grab a wand of that flavor. Web, MAA, and Glitterdust don't allow SR. Rope Trick for safe party.

3rd level: Dispel Magic, Stinking Cloud, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon
GMW tank's weapon every day so he doesn't have to blow cash for raw bonuses. Haste party for bonuses. Stinking Cloud is good battlefield control, even better with Mastery of Shaping. Dispel Magic... duh.

4th level: DimDoor, Solid Fog, Polymorph, Summon Monster IV
Abuse the hell out of Polycheeze. He asked for it by jacking with SR. Summon Monster IV has some good summons, and just about everything else has SR.

5th level: Cloudkill, Overland Flight, Telekenesis, Teleport

6th level: Dispel Magic Greater, Acid Fog, Disentigrate
But wait! Disintigrate allows SR! Yes, but unless he rules that unattended objects have SR, they're still screwed. Use this to drop Force effects and to create traps, using indirect fire.

7th level spells: Teleport Greater, Forcecage, Greater Shadow Conjuration
If there was a Conjuration spell I missed... now I can do it anyways. Forcecage + Cloudkill = Win

8th level spells: PAO, Mind Blank
Abuse the hell out of Polycheeze, new and improved! Turn your Tank into a Titan! Turn yourself into a Dragon! Turn the ground underneath your opponent into Lava!. Mind Blank = immunity to mind-affecting. Use this on party meat shield.

As you can see, not a single attack spell is used which allows SR. This is an effective party buffer and crowd control specialist. Plus insane saves since Cha to all saves. And all done Core.

Want to go even more broken non-core? Pick up a single feat: Chain Spell. Chain Arcane Reach GMW and Rod of Greater Chain Spell for Arcane Reach Mind Blank. Now the whole party has +5 weapons and is immune to mind-affecting stuff, and can't be found via magic either. Replace Paladin and EK with MotAO4 (grab Arcane Preparation instead of Point Blank Shot) and Iot7V. You win.

Last_resort_33
2007-05-09, 05:21 AM
I would say that a spellcraft roll of DC(5+ desired caster level + spell level) on every spell is something that should be made to all casters...

I'd also give ALL classes an extra 1 skill points per level.

Caelestion
2007-05-09, 05:26 AM
I'm sorry but Big T and A Prismatic Great Wrym wouldn't last a second against Pun-Pun. He has an arbitrarily high divine rank. And can make any ability he wants at will as a free action. Including abilities such as "Any prismatic dragon that contemplates attacking Pun-Pun instantly falls over dead."

You could always go with "you're not playing a kobold or a Sarrukh or using Serpent Kingdoms". As Fishy says though, if it's no longer a game, just leave. Don't come up with ridiculous ideas to get your own back - it's the Special Olympics paradigm.

Saph
2007-05-09, 06:09 AM
I'm sorry but Big T and A Prismatic Great Wrym wouldn't last a second against Pun-Pun. He has an arbitrarily high divine rank. And can make any ability he wants at will as a free action. Including abilities such as "Any prismatic dragon that contemplates attacking Pun-Pun instantly falls over dead."

Stop being silly. If the DM wants to kill you, it doesn't matter in the least what your character is. If the DM says "You die," you die. End of story. So quit with the "If you make me angry, I'll ruin your game!" threats. The only DMs they'll work on are the extremely wimpy ones.

- Saph

Roderick_BR
2007-05-09, 06:21 AM
A house rule I've been thinking is that casting into battle requires Concentration Checks. Casting out of battle (buffs, healing) is fine, but trying to affect something during a fight is stressing enough. Still working a way to make high level spells be harder to cast when the caster is high level.
If you go by DC = 10+spell level is not good, because every 2 levels, a caster rises his Concentration skill at +2, while his spell level rise at +1.
I'm thinking 10 + (spell level x3).

Level/DC
0/10
1/13
2/16
3/19
4/22
5/25
6/28
7/31
8/34
9/37
A wizard 17, with maxed Concentration (20) average Con (12: +2) need to roll a 17 to cast his 9th level spells. If he has Skill Focus and Combat Casting, he needs only a 8, but the chance is still there.
The balance is that casting before battle (or inside a time stop), is still easy, but inside battle, it's not.
Also, making more high level spells (7th +) need full round actions to be cast. It's silly that most classes (fighter, monks) need full attacks to be effectives, while wizards can cast powerful reality bending spells with a standard action.

Edit: Last_resort_33's option of adding the caster level makes sense. Casting a spell at lower caster level is weaker and easier to use. I'll add it to my rule and change a few things to fit better.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-09, 07:56 AM
Non epic skills max at 23, not 20.

And no wizard worth his salt has a Con of 12 at level 20. It should be at least 18 after items and what not. That gives a +27 in concentration. Now you only need to roll a 10 or better. And there is a feat that allows you to take 10 on all concentration rolls.

So at level 20 with the spending of 1 feat (which you can repalce an elf racical feat with for 500 XP) you will never fail the concentration check.

Demented
2007-05-10, 01:01 AM
Roderick's example used a Wizard 17, not 20, so the skill DOES max at 20.
Still, sounds about right that a level 20 Wizard can barely make the DC guaranteed, with a feat. How about all the levels in-between?