1 Rogue/ 19 Wizard Elf Advice

[magicalmagicman]

I think I'm comfortable enough with the game that I can try some unoptimized fun characters.
25 point buy after modifiers
8 Str
16 Dex
12 Con
14 Int
8 Wis
14 Cha (this is high for roleplay reasons)

What combat style should I use?

1. Weapon finesse + two-weapon fighting + summon monster for flanks.
2. Point Blank Shot + Rapid Shot + Grease
3. Some other style I don't know about.

Oh and the 19wizard is just a place holder. I'll probably prestige class into abjurant champion or something.

[Nifft]

1 - Go Spellthief 1 instead of Rogue 1. Later, take Master Spellthief.

2 - Don't take Weapon Finesse, use spells or a [Reserve] feat.

3 - What do you want to get from Abjurant Champion? Why not something with more skill points and Rogue-like features, such as Unseen Seer?

[Xuldarinar]

Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Spellwarp Sniper (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070220a) 5/Wizard +X

Utilize feats such as: Master Spellthief, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (Ray).
Utilize spells you can turn into rays, along with any spell you can use to create conditions for sneak attack: grease not being a bad option, but summons are worth consideration.

Personally, I'd go with a spontaneous spellcaster instead of a prepared, but thats because I value moment to moment flexibility over day to day.


edit:

Alternatively, if you rather a finesse melee build. I don't think daggerspell mage is a bad choice. Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Daggerspell mage 10/ then maybe.. Arcane Trickster?

[Psyren]

I'd replace Wizard +X with Unseen Seer or Arcane Trickster. More SA!

[Xuldarinar]

I'd replace Wizard +X with Unseen Seer or Arcane Trickster. More SA!

Do you think there would be any advantage to utilizing both Daggerspell mage and Spellwarp Sniper? While both Unseen Seer and Arcane Trickster are both good in this case, providing casting and SA, they simply don't excite (me atleast).

I think being able to turn your sneak attacking rays into partially slashing damage could be useful, but it is restrictive on feats and one is distinctly melee and the other ranged.

[Rebel7284]

I'd replace Wizard +X with Unseen Seer or Arcane Trickster. More SA!
Why not both!

A few additional points
- Spellthief is marginally more difficult to qualify with because Sense Motive is cross-class, but Master Spellthief feat IS pretty nice.
- Spellwarp Sniper can be amusing for removing reflex saves and MORE sneak attack.
- As per usual with any sort of gishy build, ways to persist your spells is very valuable. Incantatrix/Spelldancer/etc. Having Hunter's Eye running 24/7 is kind of silly.

[Psyren]

I don't like Daggerspell Mage in this build because it wants you in melee, which means you won't get Sudden Raystrike. In addition, Unseen Seer adds more utility - not just advancing sneak attack, but also supercharging your divinations (Practiced Spellcaster defeats the drawback) and supernaturally protecting you from the divinations of others, which is very valuable to a thief. The entry requirements are cake as well.

[nedz]

Changeling Rogue 1 / Wizard 5 / Spellwarp Sniper 5 / Unseen Seer X
(With the Changeling Rogue ACFs)
+ More Skill points
+ Best Face in the party

Just always appear to be an Elf.

[HalfQuart]

You're definitely going to want to stay out of melee combat with a 12 Con and mostly d4 hit dice, so don't go for Weapon Finesse. You could probably go the Mailman-style Wizard route; the high Dex will help your ranged touch attacks and if you go into Abjurant Champion you'll keep your BAB up fairly high. Straight damage is not exactly high-optimization, but it can be fairly effective, and Wizards can still have a lot of utility flexibility. With a 14 Int, your save DCs will be pretty low, so you're going to want to focus on things that don't require saves (like many battlefield control tactics or ranged touch attacks).

If you do go Elf Wizard, the Generalist Wizard substitution levels in RotW is pretty good. And if you're set on Elf, might as well be a Gray Elf to get the extra +2 Int, -2 Str. Without Generalist Wizard, I don't think Elf brings much to Wizard, even if it is iconic. Although I suppose the longsword proficients will help qualify for Abjurant Champion. But if all you want is the +2 Dex, a small race like (Strongheart) Halfling or Whisper Gnome would be good, as those give you +1 AC and +1 to hit also. Whisper Gnome hurts your Cha, to be sure, and probably won't fit with your RP vision.

I'm finding myself trying to optimize your character, but you did preface your post with "I can try some unoptimized fun characters" -- what exactly are you wanting from us?

[Bronk]

As an arcane spellcaster of some sort, already with one level of rogue, and considering you want to be fighty... I'd suggest you specialize in rays and take the 'craven' feat, to add a possible blanket 1d6+20 damage to your spells.

[magicalmagicman]

I totally forgot to mention character concept.

This is a sub-par ninja who uses magic to compensate.

Rays and blasting is fine but I'm worried about early game. Can't exactly be a blaster with such a pathetic number of spells-per-day. This character is going to start at level 1. I think I can switch over to full blaster around level 8, after my scorching ray gets a boost.

It seems like a consensus that meleeing with weapon finesse is suicide. Ok, I'll go the bow route then unless someone here gives me a better suggestion. I heard a lot of bad things about bows (need to be within charge distance to get sneak attacks, everyone will have some form of cover v.s. you, etc.) which is why i was considering meleeing.

Unseen seer is very tempting but I don't think I can meet its skill prerequisites. As a 14int elf I only get 4 skill points per level up, and I kind of want to keep knowledge planes maxed.

What is the benefit of spellthief over rogue? Rogues get more skill points where as spellthieves get to steal level 1 spells, which I don't think is that good.

Can I get the elf generalist wizardry racial substitution even if my 1st level is rogue?

[Nifft]

What is the benefit of spellthief over rogue? Rogues get more skill points where as spellthieves get to steal level 1 spells, which I don't think is that good. You also need the Master Spellthief feat, which grants you:

Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief. Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. The character described above would have a caster level of 8th for both his spellthief spells and his wizard spells. In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast or stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor. You incur the normal arcane spell failure chance when wearing medium or heavy armor or when using a shield.


Can I get the elf generalist wizardry racial substitution even if my 1st level is rogue? Yes.

[HalfQuart]

Can I get the elf generalist wizardry racial substitution even if my 1st level is rogue?
Yes, you take the substitution levels in place of Wizard 1, Wizard 3, and/or Wizard 5. So in your case that would be at Character Levels 2, 4, and/or 6.

[HalfQuart]

Unseen seer is very tempting but I don't think I can meet its skill prerequisites. As a 14int elf I only get 4 skill points per level up, and I kind of want to keep knowledge planes maxed.

It definitely will be hard. If you go Gray Elf, that would give you 5 points per level. You can take Martial Study (Shadow Hand) to get Hide as a class skill. Shadow Jaunt would be pretty good, and fit your character concept pretty well. That would save some skill points. Alternatively you could be a Forestlord Elf from Dragon Magic; it doesn't get +2 Int, but does get Hide as a class skill. Another problem is that it is favored class = Sorcerer, so if you play with XP multiclass penalties, then you are screwed.

But you're going to want Concentration and Spellcraft pretty much maxed, in addition to the prerequisite ranks in Hide, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot. With a bit of napkin math, it looks like you could qualify for US around level 10, assuming you neglect the Knowledge skills, which would be kind of weird for a Wizard.

That is also around the time you could qualify for Abjurant Champion if you went that route. AC is best if you are Exalted and use Greater Luminous Armor or convince your DM that Mage Armor should be an Abjuration spell.

At low levels you'd benefit from a reserve feat (probably Acidic Splatter), since you won't have a ton of spells per day; the problem is that starting with Rogue 1 you want be able to take it until you get your 6th level feat, which is probably when you'd want to take Martial Study, and also by then you'll have quite a few more spells making it somewhat less attractive.

[DrMartin]

Unseen seer is very tempting but I don't think I can meet its skill prerequisites. As a 14int elf I only get 4 skill points per level up, and I kind of want to keep knowledge planes maxed.



you can go Ruathar as soon as you get to character level 6 I think, the class advances spellcasting, gives elf sinergies, and conveniently enough has all the skills you need for unseen seer as class skills. Better chassis than wizard to booth (not that it's hard, but yeah).




What is the benefit of spellthief over rogue? Rogues get more skill points where as spellthieves get to steal level 1 spells, which I don't think is that good.



I think the main advantage would be the master spellthief feat, with it you can cast in light armor with no chance of spell failure (and your spellthief levels stack for caster level purposes, but if you are going unseen seer you are probably going to take practiced spellcaster anyway, to compensate for divination spell power).

Personally I'd go scout instead of rogue, i think that triggering skirmish is way more dependent on your strategy than on your opponent's abilities, comparing to sneak attack anyway.

[Bronk]

At low levels you'd benefit from a reserve feat (probably Acidic Splatter), since you won't have a ton of spells per day;

This would mesh perfectly with sneak attack and the craven feat, bringing the total damage from 1d6 acid damage to at least 2d6 + character level acid damage on a ranged touch attack (2d6+4 when it first comes online). Not bad for a backup attack, and better than the 2d4 from the second level 'acid arrow' spell you could use to power it.