Reduce Person (Pathfinder) In Combat

[g3taso]

I'm thinking of Reduce Person (or variants) and their real effects on combat. Let's say that 240lb evil fighter in full plate gets hit and misses his save. That fighter now weighs 30lb, and in combat we should be able to punt that evil fighter like a soccer ball, or for that matter scoop him up in a net and restrain him.

Without any real difficulty! It seems that even if that fighter is truly skilled, the loss of mass is too overwhelming. It would be like fighting a 5-year old child, and even if they retained their skills at weapons any combat would end once someone actually got a hand on them or a net on them.

I've seen the spell description, but is there anything in the rules that also applies?

[Psyren]

I'm thinking of Reduce Person (or variants) and their real effects on combat. Let's say that 240lb evil fighter in full plate gets hit and misses his save. That fighter now weighs 30lb, and in combat we should be able to punt that evil fighter like a soccer ball, or for that matter scoop him up in a net and restrain him.

Without any real difficulty! It seems that even if that fighter is truly skilled, the loss of mass is too overwhelming. It would be like fighting a 5-year old child, and even if they retained their skills at weapons any combat would end once someone actually got a hand on them or a net on them.

I've seen the spell description, but is there anything in the rules that also applies?

RP only drops them a size category and doesn't affect their strength much. Your argument is like saying halfling and gnome fighters (who are also Small) should have the strength of children and be puntable, and this is clearly not the case.

Furthermore, whether you can punt someone in PF is dependent on their CMD, which also takes Dex into account, and which you have increased. So while such a fighter might be (a little) weaker, they're also faster as a result of being smaller and thus more apt to avoid your awesome blow or bull rush.

[Segev]

The penalties to his CMD due to size would probably cover it.

Recall that a reduced human is not smaller than, say, a halfling or a gnome, and they are just as effective in grappling et al.

[g3taso]

It's the 1/8 weight that is bothering me. A dwarf might be "small" but still weigh as much as a human. But a 30-lb replacement for a 240-lb fighter seems to be an entirely different beast.

[Segev]

It's the 1/8 weight that is bothering me. A dwarf might be "small" but still weigh as much as a human. But a 30-lb replacement for a 240-lb fighter seems to be an entirely different beast.

Dwarves are Medium-sized creatures, in the RAW. Again, compare to a halfling.

[Vhaidara]

Physics. D20 systems. Don't try to use them together. It never works.

[Andreaz]

As Keledrath says, don't bother using physics to check what happens under what is covered by the rules. It will simply break.
Plus, have you ever tried kicking a 30lb object? That's almost 4 times more than something far more puntable, like an adult cat. (Which seems a fit comparison, though I do not in any form endorse punting wildlife but in self-defense)

Actually, don't bother answering that question. I'll do that for you.
Impulse is what makes the kicked object fly. Impulse is how much moment you actually apply to an object through some force and time. A great kick that throws the unhappy feline some good 5 meters (for comparison, a neighborhood two-way street has a little over 9m) requires 40 Kg m/s of impulse.
Since the cat is "soft" (mostly the spine bending around the foot), you can expect a longer exposure time, like 0.2 seconds, a very long time. The average force imparted on the cat is 200N. On a target like you described(some 40 lbs, without considering his gear), the average force grows to 950N. So far so good, right?
Wrong. The gnome is probably far "harder", and the time span of the application will be closer to 0.02s, so bring that number up to 9500N. Don't find it strange if it's more than that: that's the average force over time, the peak can easily triple or quadruple that amount.

A kick like that, well aimed on the chest, will break some 3 or 4 ribs, pierce your lungs and stop your heart (which means you won't fly that far because the energy used to punt will be mostly used to deform the body, but let's pretend your gnome is harder than that). A kick from a world-class fighter can do that, and that's about it.

Your world-class punter could be, let's say, a 5th level warder that maxxed his bull rush. Primal Warrior Stance to punt like a Large character(+1). Greater Bull Rush(+4). STR 23 (+6) and gauntlets of skilled maneuver (+2). Bab 5 (+5). Totalling a Punting Roll of D20+18 for a perfect kick of 38.
Your Small friend will have a "helpless" CMD of around 9 (base + size, target not resisting). 5 squares.
Make the punter a half-giant with enlarge person to get another +3 and punt a further square if you want.


Seems fine enough.
You want to punt? Use the Bull Rush rules. No need to complicate it further.