Medium armor master

[Spacehamster]

Is it just me that thinks this should be a half feat as it does not
sound that powerful 1 more potential AC from best medium armor
if you got the DEX to back it up and beeing able to stealth with it
without disadvantage does not sound powerful enough for a full
feat.

[Hawkstar]

It is a half feat.

Did you miss the +1 Dex or Str it carries?

[Naanomi]

For most characters taking it, I'd guess it is +2 AC (one from dex and one from upgrading to half-plate, which you were avoiding to keep stealthy)

[hymer]

I guess what it should be compared to is +2 to dex. I'm assuming you don't take this feat if your dex is 12 or less, or you don't want to wear medium armour.

+2 dex would give +1 initiative, +1 to dex saves and +1 to dex skills.
MAM could give +1 to AC and removal of disadvantage to stealth.
Or it could give +2 AC.

They all seem roughly comparable.

[Spacehamster]

It is a half feat.

Did you miss the +1 Dex or Str it carries?

were you thinking of the feat that gives you prof with medium armor?
Cause medium armor master does not give + to any scores.

[Daishain]

It is a half feat.

Did you miss the +1 Dex or Str it carries?
AFB so I can't double check, but what +1?

Last I looked, and yes I was looking carefully, it removed stealth penalties and extended the +2 cap on AC bonuses to a +3 cap, that's it.

I actually remember thinking that it was remarkable as being the only armor related feat that failed to add to ability scores.

[Spacehamster]

AFB so I can't double check, but what +1?

Last I looked, and yes I was looking carefully, it removed stealth penalties and extended the +2 cap on AC bonuses to a +3 cap, that's it.

I actually remember thinking that it was remarkable as being the only armor related feat that failed to add to ability scores.

Exactly my thought, it feels out of place compared to the other ones, also wondering why they did not put in a "master" feat for light armor. :)

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I guess what it should be compared to is +2 to dex. I'm assuming you don't take this feat if your dex is 12 or less, or you don't want to wear medium armour.

+2 dex would give +1 initiative, +1 to dex saves and +1 to dex skills.
MAM could give +1 to AC and removal of disadvantage to stealth.
Or it could give +2 AC.

They all seem roughly comparable.

Assuming DEX is your combat stat since you should only be considering MAM if you have a DEX of 16+, it's also +1 to hit and +1 damage.
If your character's plan is to max DEX eventually, then the feat is only +1AC over studded leather.

Really, the feat only seems arguably valuable for valor bards, some clerics or barbarians who aren't putting points into CON. In such cases you'd stop at 16 DEX and plan to max CHA, WIS or STR, but it also delays said CHA/WIS/STR increases. Or possibly some mountain dwarf builds would find a use for it.
Any other medium armor wearing class like ranger or dex-fighter would want to max dex anyway.

[DireSickFish]

It's an odd feat that would most likely be taken well after you have your main stat to 20 and only if you have 16+ in dex. I could see it coming up more often with rolled stats than with point buy as you could have a high dex that you don't "need" that way.

The requirements make it an odd feat that I can't see anyone needing. Perhaps if you are in a party that is proficient in stealth and you insist on sneaking in everywhere you go, this gives options for that.

Overall I find the benefits -less- useful than heavy armor masters 3/dr and that comes with a strength bonus.

[hymer]

@ GWJ_DanyBoy: I was thinking from a caster standpoint, so you're right about barbarians and probably valor bards at least. For casters, you're likely to either reach max in your casting stat before you run out of ASIs, and start looking for other things to do with them, or you don't intend to max it in the first place, and so get there sooner.
MAM at least has this going for it: It can potentially raise your AC by 2 without strength requirement or loss of movement speed. No doubt niche, but then most feats are.

Edit: Come to think of it, there's a ranger in one of my gaming groups, who has good strength and decent dex. It's not an optimal build, but it's how he saw the character, I guess. Since he's two-weapon fighting, I'm thinking he could do worse than picking up MAM sometime down the road.

[Naanomi]

Strength or wisdom rangers, strength rogues, caster/fighter multiclasses, valor bards, some barbarians, few clerics

[ZenBear]

I houseruled a +1 DEX on it. Seems balanced to me.

[D.U.P.A.]

Feats that give you +1 AC are already strong per se. This feat is basically an armor upgrade, which lets you to go on level with splint and plate armor and is easier to obtain than these armors, since all you need is a feat.

[Sigreid]

Assuming DEX is your combat stat since you should only be considering MAM if you have a DEX of 16+, it's also +1 to hit and +1 damage.
If your character's plan is to max DEX eventually, then the feat is only +1AC over studded leather.

Really, the feat only seems arguably valuable for valor bards, some clerics or barbarians who aren't putting points into CON. In such cases you'd stop at 16 DEX and plan to max CHA, WIS or STR, but it also delays said CHA/WIS/STR increases. Or possibly some mountain dwarf builds would find a use for it.
Any other medium armor wearing class like ranger or dex-fighter would want to max dex anyway.

Our human ranger who is more strength than dex really likes having it.

[Daishain]

Feats that give you +1 AC are already strong per se. This feat is basically an armor upgrade, which lets you to go on level with splint and plate armor and is easier to obtain than these armors, since all you need is a feat.
Medium Armor Master competes with two other feats in regards to the +1 AC category. Heavily Armored, and Two weapon fighting. In addition to the +1 AC, the former grants an ability point, and the latter significant bonuses to a fighting style. MAM on the other hand only has a secondary effect of removing a penalty to stealth.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see that as being on the same level.

[Sigreid]

Medium Armor Master competes with two other feats in regards to the +1 AC category. Heavily Armored, and Two weapon fighting. In addition to the +1 AC, the former grants an ability point, and the latter significant bonuses to a fighting style. MAM on the other hand only has a secondary effect of removing a penalty to stealth.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see that as being on the same level.

If you want to be a front line stealthy fighter the feat is more than worth it as is.

[Daishain]

If you want to be a front line stealthy fighter the feat is more than worth it as is.
fighter with studded leather, 20 Dex, and TWF feat, AC 18
fighter with half plate, 16+ dex, and MAM feat, AC 18

Same net result, and neither is having any issues with being stealthy, but the first guy is getting more out of his feat investment than the second guy.

Now, there is one case where MAM is the better choice, and another where the better choice is debatable: If the player's Dex will never hit 20, and/or if the player chooses to use the S+B fighting style.

The former case is only likely to occur in low level campaigns, and the latter results in comparing an AC of 19 vs an AC of 20 (both very respectable scores), with the 19 guy having a free feat to spend on something that benefits him elsewhere (like, say, resilient: Wisdom)

[D.U.P.A.]

Medium Armor Master competes with two other feats in regards to the +1 AC category. Heavily Armored, and Two weapon fighting. In addition to the +1 AC, the former grants an ability point, and the latter significant bonuses to a fighting style. MAM on the other hand only has a secondary effect of removing a penalty to stealth.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see that as being on the same level.

You need to know that the +1 AC from Dual wielder (I assume you mean that), comes only if you have another melee weapon in the other hand, which removes the option to have a shield. While with Medium armor master you can freely use shield for this purpose, having a chance to further increase your AC. Conditional boosts are valued much lower than the static ones. In this feat you just need armor worn. Heavily armored comparison makes no sense, because it is totally different, it only allows you to wear heavy armor, which brings more issues, first you need to find a heavy armor (can be an issue in certain situations), it requires you 13 Str and all of them have disadvantage to Stealth.

[Daishain]

You need to know that the +1 AC from Dual wielder (I assume you mean that), comes only if you have another melee weapon in the other hand, which removes the option to have a shield. While with Medium armor master you can freely use shield for this purpose, having a chance to further increase your AC. Conditional boosts are valued much lower than the static ones. In this feat you just need armor worn. Heavily armored comparison makes no sense, because it is totally different, it only allows you to wear heavy armor, which brings more issues, first you need to find a heavy armor (can be an issue in certain situations), it requires you 13 Str and all of them have disadvantage to Stealth.
If you're dual wielding already you pick dual wielder, if you're using S+B, 19 AC is already excellent, and spending a feat on resilient to snag another primary save along with a point in that ability is probably the better defensive option. If you have the strength and don't care about stealth, grab some plate, heavily armored, and the Str bonus

Comparing these options directly is quite difficult, due to too many variables involved. But my point is that in regards to defensive feats, MAM is the only one that fails to offer a bonus beyond getting you to where you want to be.

[Hawkstar]

Medium Armor Master competes with two other feats in regards to the +1 AC category. Heavily Armored, and Two weapon fighting. In addition to the +1 AC, the former grants an ability point, and the latter significant bonuses to a fighting style. MAM on the other hand only has a secondary effect of removing a penalty to stealth.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see that as being on the same level.

Actually, Heavily Armored can grant anywhere from +1 to +4 AC (Going from half-plate with a Dex of 8 to Full Plate).

And MAM only grants an additional +1 AC if you already have at least a 16 in DEX.

[Daishain]

Actually, Heavily Armored can grant anywhere from +1 to +4 AC (Going from half-plate with a Dex of 8 to Full Plate).

And MAM only grants an additional +1 AC if you already have at least a 16 in DEX.
Oh aye, I was just comparing them as though the character has the stats to actually use whichever equipment type was on the table.

Otherwise one would be compelled to point out the 15 Str requirement to use full plate without a speed penalty.

[D.U.P.A.]

Medium armor master is meant for Dex builds, especially gish ones without heavy armor proficiency who do not bump Dex at every ASI, but usually start with 16 Dex, most notably Ranger and Valor Bard, maybe even for Dex Paladin. Just because it has narrower range of choices does not mean it is a bad feat.

[djreynolds]

Is it just me that thinks this should be a half feat as it does not
sound that powerful 1 more potential AC from best medium armor
if you got the DEX to back it up and beeing able to stealth with it
without disadvantage does not sound powerful enough for a full
feat.

Very true. Yes it is not a good feat. The form feat guide doesn't give it much credence. Take heavy armor feat if you don't want to multiclass and if you need to stealth just take it off.

The only thing this feat is good for is two things, if you tried to fight a dragon in medium armor, severely overestimated your "Mojo" and now have to skulk away or if you're trying to make a traditional samurai is that scale armor.

[Sigreid]

fighter with studded leather, 20 Dex, and TWF feat, AC 18
fighter with half plate, 16+ dex, and MAM feat, AC 18

Same net result, and neither is having any issues with being stealthy, but the first guy is getting more out of his feat investment than the second guy.

Now, there is one case where MAM is the better choice, and another where the better choice is debatable: If the player's Dex will never hit 20, and/or if the player chooses to use the S+B fighting style.

The former case is only likely to occur in low level campaigns, and the latter results in comparing an AC of 19 vs an AC of 20 (both very respectable scores), with the 19 guy having a free feat to spend on something that benefits him elsewhere (like, say, resilient: Wisdom)

I'm speaking specifically to a situation where the ranger prefers to be specifically strength based. It makes it work. Our medium armor master ranger is going str/con and still has the highest AC in the group. It works fine.

[Naanomi]

I'm speaking specifically to a situation where the ranger prefers to be specifically strength based. It makes it work. Our medium armor master ranger is going str/con and still has the highest AC in the group. It works fine.
Or a wisdom based ranger (using magic initiate for shillelegh and Magic stone). Any medium armor using build might consider it in later levels, especially if they are stealthy types (Rangers, fighter/rogues)

[PoeticDwarf]

Is it just me that thinks this should be a half feat as it does not
sound that powerful 1 more potential AC from best medium armor
if you got the DEX to back it up and beeing able to stealth with it
without disadvantage does not sound powerful enough for a full
feat.
There are weaker feats, like martial adept.

[DireSickFish]

I'm speaking specifically to a situation where the ranger prefers to be specifically strength based. It makes it work. Our medium armor master ranger is going str/con and still has the highest AC in the group. It works fine.

I'm playing a strength based Ranger in my game. I took heavy armor proficiency because it boosts my strength and gives me an AC bonus. It also allows me to make Dex a dump stat. I guess if you still want to be able to stealth it has the very nich use of being the highest non max dex AC option that lets you keep stealth, but that's super duper niche.

[Sigreid]

I'm playing a strength based Ranger in my game. I took heavy armor proficiency because it boosts my strength and gives me an AC bonus. It also allows me to make Dex a dump stat. I guess if you still want to be able to stealth it has the very nich use of being the highest non max dex AC option that lets you keep stealth, but that's super duper niche.

Well, yeah. All feats are for scratching a niche itch. If you aren't fully functional based on your class, it's not a good class. Feats are "this is why I'm extra special beyond my class".

[djreynolds]

Concept IMHO outweighs math and optimization. If you like the idea of the medium armor master then go for it. If want to be stealthy in armor, and not leather, than it works. If you envision a samurai in scale armor infiltrating a castle along with rogues and rangers then you will need this feat. If you want to make a strength based ranger, its okay if you rolled high stats and have already have a 16 in dexterity. But for ability roles using the SPBI, than a fighter with a dip in ranger goes further for a strength based ranger because you now have heavy armor but you will lose a skill initially.

If we use say Aragorn as a visual template, then depending on the adventure you can always switch out your armor. You wear scale armor or no armor when tracking and something heavier for a big battle. Medium armor master works if you have good roles and don't want to switch out inventory. Rangers are a tough class to play IMO and require good roleplayers.

[Talyn]

Our WIS Ranger in our party is strongly considering taking it next time he levels. Don't discount the lack of disadvantage on Stealth rolls - around our table, at least, we use Stealth in almost every encounter.

Essentially, the Ranger with the 16 DEX who wants to be stealthy gets a 2 point AC bump from it - +1 for the improved DEX AC, and an additional +1 because he can upgrade from breastplate to half-plate.

+2 AC for a feat is a pretty good deal.

[djreynolds]

But a lot IMO totally depends on your rolls for abilities. And that is perhaps where the disconnection occurs. SPBI is 15/14/13/12/10/8 and with scores like this it will be difficult for a strength based ranger to achieve a 16 in dexterity while putting points in their main attack stat, and perhaps con, and medium armor master and say sentinel and pole arm master. So in this vein it doesn't come across as necessity for a strength based ranger with only 6 feats.

Now if you rolled 16/16/16/10/14/8 you could definitely squeeze in medium armor master and it is awesome. Definitely better than heavy armor, because now you can stealth with it.

So I guess the question depends on how you're rolling at your table. With the 27 point buy in, its not worth taking over ASI or attack feats. But if you've rolled and rolled well, take it. It is worth it.

[Citan]

fighter with studded leather, 20 Dex, and TWF feat, AC 18
fighter with half plate, 16+ dex, and MAM feat, AC 18

Same net result, and neither is having any issues with being stealthy, but the first guy is getting more out of his feat investment than the second guy.

Now, there is one case where MAM is the better choice, and another where the better choice is debatable: If the player's Dex will never hit 20, and/or if the player chooses to use the S+B fighting style.

The former case is only likely to occur in low level campaigns, and the latter results in comparing an AC of 19 vs an AC of 20 (both very respectable scores), with the 19 guy having a free feat to spend on something that benefits him elsewhere (like, say, resilient: Wisdom)

If you're dual wielding already you pick dual wielder, if you're using S+B, 19 AC is already excellent, and spending a feat on resilient to snag another primary save along with a point in that ability is probably the better defensive option. If you have the strength and don't care about stealth, grab some plate, heavily armored, and the Str bonus

Comparing these options directly is quite difficult, due to too many variables involved. But my point is that in regards to defensive feats, MAM is the only one that fails to offer a bonus beyond getting you to where you want to be.
As said, you cannot use a Shield with Two-Weapon Fighting so you actually lose potentially +2 or more in defense depending on the build.

Also, you seem to greatly underestimate the stealth-related benefit which allows to go stealth with the best medium armor, making you gain another +1 AC. Because stealth means good chance of attacking first, and isn't offense the best defense? :)

So, practically, for any build with DEX 16+, using medium armor because he wants to keep mobility and stealth, MAM is a flat +2AC and does not restrain your choice of offhand equipement (including free hand or focus for spellcasting), making it compatible with any build. Only with DEX 20 it MAM lacking compared to base Light Armor. But apart from Rogue or maybe Ranger for which hitting 20 is a given, there is no class where it's mandatory for efficiency. All spellcasters and classic Paladin will have 14 to 16 DEX and never getting higher (except some Valor Bard, War Cleric or Bladelock builds).

Basically, Dual Wielding is great only for non-spellcasters dual-wielders (unless you also take Warcaster or go Sorcerer with Subtle Spell).
Defensive Duelist can be a better choice than MAM for people who go light armor because high DEX (Rogue I think of you).
For most other people who are proficient in medium armor only and will have DEX 16-18 for all their career, unless you have very high STR or never try to go stealth, MAM is the best choice overall. :)

If you want to make it more appealing for players in DEX builds, just houserule that the DEX bonus limit is +4 or even no limit (capping it at 20 AC with 20 DEX, which seem powerful but not broken to me). Or give it a +1 DEX bump. :)

[Naanomi]

I do like it also for 'strength rogues' who are multiclassing fighter or some other martial class; who are using shield mastery and athletics expertise to shove people over and shank them.

They need Dex for multiclassing anyways, not too much of a stretch to throw them in medium armor and sneak around while doing their schtick

[NNescio]

It can potentially be worth 3 AC to a caster in medium armor with Dex 15, if the caster is at breastplate and doesn't usually want to upgrade to half-plate because of the stealth disadvantage. So, gishes or support casters, I guess, but the opportunity cost is high, as they could have taken War Caster (or a bump to their primary casting stat) instead.

It is definitely not worth it for ranged martials or melee martials relying on finessable weapons, who would want to bump their Dex all the way to 20 anyway.

[DireSickFish]

It can potentially be worth 3 AC to a caster in medium armor with Dex 15, if the caster is at breastplate and doesn't usually want to upgrade to half-plate because of the stealth disadvantage. So, gishes or support casters, I guess, but the opportunity cost is high, as they could have taken War Caster (or a bump to their primary casting stat) instead.

It is definitely not worth it for ranged martials or melee martials relying on finessable weapons, who would want to bump their Dex all the way to 20 anyway.

Why Dex of 15? Medium armor master doesn't provide a Str or Dex bump or I'd be saying the feat is fine as is. Am I missing something about the statement?

[Daishain]

It can potentially be worth 3 AC to a caster in medium armor with Dex 15, if the caster is at breastplate and doesn't usually want to upgrade to half-plate because of the stealth disadvantage. So, gishes or support casters, I guess, but the opportunity cost is high, as they could have taken War Caster (or a bump to their primary casting stat) instead.

It is definitely not worth it for ranged martials or melee martials relying on finessable weapons, who would want to bump their Dex all the way to 20 anyway.
Given a Dex of 15, Medium Armor Master is worth 1 AC in the sense of being able to upgrade to half plate (14+2 -> 15+2). Given a Dex of 16 or higher, it is worth 2 AC in the same context (14+2 -> 15+3). It is never on its own worth 3.

[Arial Black]

The problem I have with this feat (okay, one of the problems) is that it takes two feats/ASIs to use it!

What I mean is this: I have a Dex of 14 and proficiency with medium armour. If I take the feat, then although I'm allowed up to +3 Dex, I don't have +3 Dex, until I spend another ASI four levels later.

Okay, so I do it the other way round: I increase my Dex to 16 first. Trouble is, just like the other way, my AC won't go up until I get the actual feat four levels later.

At least a +1 Dex would help, if you had 15 Dex.

[Coidzor]

The problem I have with this feat (okay, one of the problems) is that it takes two feats/ASIs to use it!

What I mean is this: I have a Dex of 14 and proficiency with medium armour. If I take the feat, then although I'm allowed up to +3 Dex, I don't have +3 Dex, until I spend another ASI four levels later.

Okay, so I do it the other way round: I increase my Dex to 16 first. Trouble is, just like the other way, my AC won't go up until I get the actual feat four levels later.

At least a +1 Dex would help, if you had 15 Dex.

Yeah, I was looking at that to see if it would be an option since it looked like I was going to go with armor instead of pumping Con for an unarmored barbarian, and the fact that I have to spend a feat and an ASI to be able to use it if I start with 14 Dex like anyone else looking to wear Medium Armor is less than great, especially if one isn't up to half-plate yet or can just afford mithril.

[D.U.P.A.]

The problem I have with this feat (okay, one of the problems) is that it takes two feats/ASIs to use it!

What I mean is this: I have a Dex of 14 and proficiency with medium armour. If I take the feat, then although I'm allowed up to +3 Dex, I don't have +3 Dex, until I spend another ASI four levels later.

Okay, so I do it the other way round: I increase my Dex to 16 first. Trouble is, just like the other way, my AC won't go up until I get the actual feat four levels later.

At least a +1 Dex would help, if you had 15 Dex.

It was meant for those who already have 16+ DEx from start.

[Arial Black]

It was meant for those who already have 16+ DEx from start.

The vast majority of (point-buy) PCs choose either Str OR Dex, not both. If you have put the highest possible points into Dex to make it 15, then use one of your VHuman +1s to make it 16, then you are going to be a Dex-based combatant, not Str-based.

This means that you will raise your Dex to 18 and then 20, leaving medium armour sub-optimal and light armour (or mage armour or the like) better, and you just wasted a feat.

It's quite a niche to have 16 Dex yet still be Str-based. It works for a barbarian, but he doesn't need to wear armour anyway.

[Hawkstar]

This means that you will raise your Dex to 18 and then 20, leaving medium armour sub-optimal and light armour (or mage armour or the like) better, and you just wasted a feat.
No it's not. Going Medium armor master is BETTER than light armor for dex-based builds - you don't have the stealth penalty, and you get 1 higher AC if you wear half plate, and the same AC in Scale. Light Armor is for those not proficient in Medium armor. Just because you don't get your full DEX to Armor doesn't mean you don't get your full Dex to everything else. and you get max AC before Dex 20.

15+3>12+5.

[Daishain]

No it's not. Going Medium armor master is BETTER than light armor for dex-based builds - you don't have the stealth penalty, and you get 1 higher AC if you wear half plate, and the same AC in Scale. Light Armor is for those not proficient in Medium armor. Just because you don't get your full DEX to Armor doesn't mean you don't get your full Dex to everything else. and you get max AC before Dex 20.

15+3>12+5.
The problem with this reasoning is that a Dex 20 character is effectively choosing to spend a precious feat to gain 1 AC point and nothing else. Other feats like Dual Wielder and Heavily Armored have established that +1 AC is worth half a feat at best. Given the choice, I'd stick with 17 AC and pick up Resilient instead, I'd get more mileage defensively out of an extra strong save.

So no, it is not a good option in the long run.

It does have a niche use in certain cases where getting Dex to 20 is never going to happen. V human with 16 dex in a campaign that won't go past L6 for instance.

[Hawkstar]

Yes, Medium armor master should be a half-feat.

[djreynolds]

It's a cool feat. It's thematic, you're the muscle in the thief group. But you're not clanking around. If you have the stats, yes. It's very cool. But expensive. It's worth it for the cost? What did you roll? What is your occupation? Thieve's guild. Ranger unit. Tomb raider.

I believe in concept over optimization. What is your build, where this is necessary? Can you not switch armor out for the mission?

When I see medium armor master, I see SWAT guys or gals, on a stair case? 3,2,1,GO

[D.U.P.A.]

The problem with this reasoning is that a Dex 20 character is effectively choosing to spend a precious feat to gain 1 AC point and nothing else. Other feats like Dual Wielder and Heavily Armored have established that +1 AC is worth half a feat at best. Given the choice, I'd stick with 17 AC and pick up Resilient instead, I'd get more mileage defensively out of an extra strong save.

So no, it is not a good option in the long run.

It does have a niche use in certain cases where getting Dex to 20 is never going to happen. V human with 16 dex in a campaign that won't go past L6 for instance.

I would gladly spend a feat for extra 1 AC, especially for front line defender. And it is particulary useful for MAD classes, who need to bump their spellcasting modifier too and may max their attacking stat Dex quite late.

[Arial Black]

No it's not. Going Medium armor master is BETTER than light armor for dex-based builds - you don't have the stealth penalty, and you get 1 higher AC if you wear half plate, and the same AC in Scale. Light Armor is for those not proficient in Medium armor. Just because you don't get your full DEX to Armor doesn't mean you don't get your full Dex to everything else. and you get max AC before Dex 20.

15+3>12+5.

I've got 13+5=18.

At 1st, I didn't take MAM to get 16 AC and spend that money on a chain shirt; I took Magic Initiate, got mage armour and two cantrips, and didn't need to spend any money on armour or ranged weapons. I spent the money on a silvered weapon instead.

I increased Dex at 4th and 6th, and now have 18 AC without having to find, buy or wear armour. If I found some half-plate now, it would make my AC worse and give disadvantage to stealth. I could then take MAM at 8th, just to leave myself no better than without it, in fact it would be worse as I would have to carry around all that weight. And there are social disadvantages to wearing actual armour.

[hymer]

I've got 13+5=18.

At 1st, I didn't take MAM to get 16 AC and spend that money on a chain shirt; I took Magic Initiate, got mage armour and two cantrips, and didn't need to spend any money on armour or ranged weapons. I spent the money on a silvered weapon instead.

I increased Dex at 4th and 6th, and now have 18 AC without having to find, buy or wear armour. If I found some half-plate now, it would make my AC worse and give disadvantage to stealth. I could then take MAM at 8th, just to leave myself no better than without it, in fact it would be worse as I would have to carry around all that weight. And there are social disadvantages to wearing actual armour.

It does come with drawbacks, however. Firstly, it only works for eight hours per day, not for as long as you care to wear the armour. It works better if you're ambushed in camp, but less well on a journey. It is also more subject to sudden negation, and rather hard to recover from on that day. Finally, there's magical armour.

[Coidzor]

It was meant for those who already have 16+ DEx from start.

Which is bad because, as I said, you only want to put a 14 in Dex as a medium armor user. No matter how you slice it, there's too much delay in fully benefiting. Vumans with 16 dex and MAM out the gate can't get armor that's worth the feat investment until they've leveled, in addition to the covered cases.

[hymer]

Which is bad because, as I said, you only want to put a 14 in Dex as a medium armor user. No matter how you slice it, there's too much delay in fully benefiting. Vumans with 16 dex and MAM out the gate can't get armor that's worth the feat investment until they've leveled, in addition to the covered cases.

You may want to invest no more, but let's not pretend stat buy and your priorities make up the whole game. Even with strict optimization, there are of course times when you're not in control of your stats to that degree - like if you roll. You may not have a 14 to put in dex. And it's not like it's a total waste to put a 16 in dex, even if you expect to be wearing medium armour once you get the money for it. And then there are magical items that change your scores.
The whole feat is not 'bad' because it is situational. You can, after all, choose something else for all those cases when it doesn't fit your character.

[Hawkstar]

Which is bad because, as I said, you only want to put a 14 in Dex as a medium armor user. No matter how you slice it, there's too much delay in fully benefiting. Vumans with 16 dex and MAM out the gate can't get armor that's worth the feat investment until they've leveled, in addition to the covered cases.

Why would you not want to start with a 16 or 17 in Dex as a Dex-based fighter and not use Medium Armor? Do you just hate having AC above 15?

A dex-based character in Light Armor hits AC 17 at level 6 if he's a fighter at minimum. A dex-based Vuman character with Medium Armor+Master hits AC 17 (Dirt-cheap Scale armor) at level 1.

[Falcon X]

I don't know about all the comparisons you guys are talking about. All I know is that my stealthy character with Medium Armor proficiency would love to have a +2 AC.

It's highly useful for very specific builds, like ones that rely on high AC, but for one reason or another don't want to drop stealth or can't easily get heavy armor proficiency.

[Daishain]

I don't know about all the comparisons you guys are talking about. All I know is that my stealthy character with Medium Armor proficiency would love to have a +2 AC.

It's highly useful for very specific builds, like ones that rely on high AC, but for one reason or another don't want to drop stealth or can't easily get heavy armor proficiency.

If you can get MAM, you can get the heavily armored feat. The only real obstacle there is the availability of plate armor.

[hymer]

I don't know about all the comparisons you guys are talking about. All I know is that my stealthy character with Medium Armor proficiency would love to have a +2 AC.

It's highly useful for very specific builds, like ones that rely on high AC, but for one reason or another don't want to drop stealth or can't easily get heavy armor proficiency.


If you can get MAM, you can get the heavily armored feat. The only real obstacle there is the availability of plate armor.

I'd say the real obstacle would be the disadvantage on Stealth checks. Secondarily the strength requirement.

[Daishain]

I'd say the real obstacle would be the disadvantage on Stealth checks. Secondarily the strength requirement.
Needing stealth was the other scenario in which he mentioned it would be useful, you'll note that I did not counter that.

As for Str requirement, most of the characters debating whether or not to take this feat are going to have 15+ Str anyways.



EDIT: Ok, I don't think we're getting anywhere with this argument. Yes the feat has its niche uses, but I think its unlikely we'll come to a consensus on just how niche it is. It is a lot like Keen Mind in that respect, I find it flavorful and useful, others think its among the worst choices out there.

So, back to the original question. It has been noted that MAM is the only armor improvement feat that does not add +1 to an ability score. Does the feat, as it is written, seem to be roughly equal in power to a +2 ABI, and/or comparable feats? If no, would +1 to Dex cause MAM to become overpowered?

[MaxWilson]

Also, you seem to greatly underestimate the stealth-related benefit which allows to go stealth with the best medium armor, making you gain another +1 AC. Because stealth means good chance of attacking first, and isn't offense the best defense? :)

This is true, but only to the extent that you're getting caught while sneaking. If you already have +7 to Stealth from Dex and proficiency, and +10 to Stealth from Pass Without Trace, and disadvantage on enemy Perception rolls from being in the dark--in such a case, the extra boost from not having disadvantage on Stealth means little. Anyone who's not surprised by you is probably not surprisable.

So Medium Armor Master definitely has diminishing returns.

[Hawkstar]

As for Str requirement, most of the characters debating whether or not to take this feat are going to have 15+ Str anyways.
... Why? Medium armor is the armor of choice for Dex-based characters. Light armor is for those who don't have Medium Armor Proficiency.


This is true, but only to the extent that you're getting caught while sneaking. If you already have +7 to Stealth from Dex and proficiency, and +10 to Stealth from Pass Without Trace, and disadvantage on enemy Perception rolls from being in the dark--in such a case, the extra boost from not having disadvantage on Stealth means little. Anyone who's not surprised by you is probably not surprisable.Where is my human Fighter getting Pass Without Trace, and why's he in the dark?

I do, however, firmly believe the feat needs +1 STR or DEX

[Daishain]

... Why? Medium armor is the armor of choice for Dex-based characters. Light armor is for those who don't have Medium Armor Proficiency.

Without MAM, medium armor offers truly Dex based characters nothing whatsoever save for an early level head start. With MAM, medium offers the potential to increase AC by 1. I'd hardly call that the armor of choice.

Where it has real value is for characters whose Dex will never exceed 16

[yawnmummy]

Without MAM, medium armor offers truly Dex based characters nothing whatsoever save for an early level head start. With MAM, medium offers the potential to increase AC by 1. I'd hardly call that the armor of choice.

Where it has real value is for characters whose Dex will never exceed 16

By my powers as a thread Necromancer, I will cast "Reply to 3 Year old thread" :smalltongue:

This thread was very helpful for me (a Valor Bard, who is the only tank and only scout in a four man group). As a result of this thread, I've collected my thoughts as follows:

If....

You always need ability to use stealth (only party scout?)

and...


You already have access to Medium Armor (Valor Bard or Ranger?)


and...



You don't plan on going passed DEX 16 (and currently, or will shortly have it)




You effectively get a +3 AC




w/o Feat



Chain Shirt AC 13 + 2



** Highest Armor with no Stealth Dis-advantage




vrs.




w. Feat



Half Plate Armor AC 15 + 3 (= to Plate Mail!)



Dis-advantage on Stealth

Thoughts?

[KOLE]

It’s niche feat for sure, but I like having it as an option. It works well for strength based Barbarogues and hexblades who want to boost Cha and still be able to take a hit in combat.

[stoutstien]

I see it uses a lot in games banning multi classing.

[KorvinStarmast]

If want to be stealthy in armor, and not leather, than it works. My level 14 Champion does just that. Med Armor Master in Half Plate. Can often accompany the rogue in sneaking around due to stealth proficiency, and is there for when the rogue runs into trouble during a sneak.

At first level, being in splint and not making noise with a ranger is real handy with the vHuman ranger I started a while back. Able to go sword and board, or stick with bow, as the situation warranted.

It's a good feat, particularly if your Ranger is doubling as your rogue for doors and traps. (I have done that with two different characters, thieves tools and all that).

My ToA Ranger has a chain shirt, 16 dex, and medium armor master. With a shield, his AC of 18 allows him to be in the front line with the paladin in some fights as he wields his rapier.

Anyway, when he can save up enough money to get some half plate, it will be even better. :)

[History_buff]

If you want to be a front line stealthy fighter the feat is more than worth it as is.

Nah. It ain’t worth it. Opportunity cost is way too high.

[KorvinStarmast]

Nah. It ain’t worth it. Opportunity cost is way too high. My "at the table" experience says otherwise, however, it is directly related to both the build and the party in terms of its level of utility.

My other ranger when sharpshooter and never looked back.

[MaxWilson]

I see it uses a lot in games banning multi classing.

Are you sure you're not thinking of Moderately Armored, which gives you proficiency with medium armor and shields? Medium Armor Master is a different feat.

[ad_hoc]

One thing that is often overlooked when it comes to equipment related feats is the equipment itself.

Sure, Studded Leather is great as it lets you use all of your dex, but what if you found a sweet magical half plate?

Granted this one is very niche as most medium armour already doesn't impose disadvantage on stealth.

[stoutstien]

Are you sure you're not thinking of Moderately Armored, which gives you proficiency with medium armor and shields? Medium Armor Master is a different feat.

Nope. had barbs, valor bards, and clerics take it for the easy ac boost and to reduce fighting over light armor. Tend to only have one medium armor user per group.

[MaxWilson]

Nope. had barbs, valor bards, and clerics take it for the easy ac boost and to reduce fighting over light armor. Tend to only have one medium armor user per group.

Huh. Interesting because it's only an AC boost under certain circumstances. That implies that your group has a lot of sneaking going on and/or a lot of Dex 16 bards/barbs/clerics. Not bad, just interesting.


One thing that is often overlooked when it comes to equipment related feats is the equipment itself.

Sure, Studded Leather is great as it lets you use all of your dex, but what if you found a sweet magical half plate?

Then you will be very, very sad if your magical half-plate that you built your character around ever gets stolen or destroyed.

Building your character around equipment, no thank you. Not for me.

[sophontteks]

Instead of getting the feat you could just get dex.

[bid]

My ToA Ranger has a chain shirt, 16 dex, and medium armor master. With a shield, his AC of 18 allows him to be in the front line with the paladin in some fights as he wields his rapier.
In studded leather, boosting to Dex18 instead of MAM, that'd be AC18 and you'd do more damage.

At least you can switch to half-plate for AC20 when using MAM. But I don't think stopping at Dex16 is any good for a ranger.

[ad_hoc]

Then you will be very, very sad if your magical half-plate that you built your character around ever gets stolen or destroyed.

Building your character around equipment, no thank you. Not for me.

"Built around". It's just taking a feat the next time it is available for the special armour you found.

If we're playing a game where magic items are getting stolen and destroyed then yeah, I guess that's a consideration.

I don't think that is the norm. I know our table would riot if that happened.

[Eric Diaz]

I wouldn't say the feat is useless, but even if you make it a half-feat, it is still not on the top 5 feats of the game, I'd say... so why not?

Not necessary, but won't break the game either. There are already not many options for Str+Dex builds.

[Willie the Duck]

There are already not many options for Str+Dex builds.

And that, more than the feat itself, is the real issue (IMO). The game, as a whole, does not exactly encourage the medium Str, medium Dex character who might benefit from this feat. Stealth skill without expertise might be useful, but probably isn't (especially without an 18-20 Dex). Having enough Dex to use a bow (even if you are a greatsword or polearm fighter mostly) is beneficial, especially if the DM has no houserules to make javelin fighting reasonable after level 5, but often it is better to specialize and let the rest of the group fight the ranged-only fights (or have the wizard cast fly on you, or if you are going to spend on a feat it would instead be magic initiate for a combat cantrip if the reason you dumped Dex is to pick up a high mental stat). Maxing Dex over Str and playing a lightly-armored character in general is a perfectly reasonable build decision, with little long term downside (at least in the way it was in AD&D, where wearing leather armor would always leave you 4 or more points behind heavy armor, and there were no finesse-able melee weapons).

Mind you, an even Str/Dex Champion Fighter with the Criminal background and MAM is a wonderful character conceptually. I love it and have played it more than once. But the system certainly doesn't favor it.

[pygmybatrider]

And that, more than the feat itself, is the real issue (IMO). The game, as a whole, does not exactly encourage the medium Str, medium Dex character who might benefit from this feat. Stealth skill without expertise might be useful, but probably isn't (especially without an 18-20 Dex). Having enough Dex to use a bow (even if you are a greatsword or polearm fighter mostly) is beneficial, especially if the DM has no houserules to make javelin fighting reasonable after level 5, but often it is better to specialize and let the rest of the group fight the ranged-only fights (or have the wizard cast fly on you, or if you are going to spend on a feat it would instead be magic initiate for a combat cantrip if the reason you dumped Dex is to pick up a high mental stat). Maxing Dex over Str and playing a lightly-armored character in general is a perfectly reasonable build decision, with little long term downside (at least in the way it was in AD&D, where wearing leather armor would always leave you 4 or more points behind heavy armor, and there were no finesse-able melee weapons).

Mind you, an even Str/Dex Champion Fighter with the Criminal background and MAM is a wonderful character conceptually. I love it and have played it more than once. But the system certainly doesn't favor it.

I agree 100%. I think most fantasy “Fighters” would have both a high Str and Dex - from Aragorn to Achilles to Captain America, and it is often hard to build that concept in 5E. It seems like no matter how hard you try you always end up with clunking tin men with big weapons on one end of the spectrum and sneaky wisps in leather on the other.

It may not be mechanically optimal, but I find a character with at least 16 in Str and Dex to be very appealing thematically, and Medium Armor Master is a decent way to go about it - especially as a vuman. Throw in Dual Wielder, 5 levels of the UA Brute Fighter and the rest in rogue, and you’ve built a character that can stand on the front lines, sneak around behind, or shoot a bow/throw a javelin from the back.

I don’t think MAM needs to become a half-feat, but I also doubt you’d break the game or ruin anyone’s fun by making the change, and you might just open up some doors for your players... :)

[Corran]

I think this feat comes into play under two circumstances:

1) A stealthy melee character finds himself tanking for the group accidentally (usually due to the group not planning what to play before they start the game, or when the group's tank dies and rolls a new ranged character, so the aforementioned stealthy character is pushed into tanking duty).

2) Purely for flavor. A player wants to play a stealthy character, but also likes the image of his character with a donned halfplate. (I did such a thing; later I was allowed to retrain it and found value in carrying a studded leather as a backup armor when I wanted to go in a stealth mission; even later I sold the halfplate and got used to using a studded leather, cause the need for stealth popped up enough times when I was clad in halfplate and it was an inconvenience as I was missing out on all the delicious stealthy stuff).

ps: Hexblades (that want to melee) can make good use of MAM, but IMO not with point buy. It would take some very specific rolled stats for picking MAM to have a chance of becoming an optimal pick (party composition would influence the decision heavily too).

[Naanomi]

The feat has a lot more potential value with rolled stats; where you may end up with DEX on your STR character on accident

[GlenSmash!]

If I had a Barbarian with Stealth proficiency (and mine always do) and picked up a very sweet piece of magical Half-Plate, i'd probably take MAM even if I didn't have 16 Dex.

[rbstr]

Medium Armor an its relationship to Heavy Armor and Strength as a whole should just work differently.
To me, Medium Armor should enable a strength-based ranger, or a stealthy/mobile strength-based fighter or even paladin far more than it does now.

I think you do that by letting characters add their Strength or Dex modifier to medium armor.
This also has the effect of making Medium Armor Master much better, since it's now on a main stat for many of the archetypes this change would enable.

(This does become a bit problematic on Barbarians by really reducing the need for dex. Not sure what to do about that)

[KorvinStarmast]

In studded leather, boosting to Dex18 instead of MAM, that'd be AC18 and you'd do more damage.

At least you can switch to half-plate for AC20 when using MAM. But I don't think stopping at Dex16 is any good for a ranger. Why do you assume that I will stop dex at 16, or even 18? Studded Leather can't do what Half plate will do. That's part of why I made this plan: the mid to long term. (We can't afford half plate at this point ...) Dex of 20 and studded still does not equal dex of 16 and half plate, and I do have to consider when to, or not to, boost dex versus when to boost wisdom for some of the Ranger spells that require spell save DC's.

Rangers are a little MAD, and even moreso when the campaign uses the variant encumbrance rule. I had to put more points in strength to simply be able to move properly while armored.

If we weren't using variant encumbrance, the "when" on the wisdom boost would not be as important of a choice.

[sithlordnergal]

I find it is a great feat for niche situations. For example, I am doing an AL game of the new Hardcover. Supposedly the new hardcover will take you all the way to tier 4. My character for this game? A Goblin Arcane Trickster Rogue / Battlemaster Fighter

I fully plan to take this feat since I will be the party's front line and it will give me AC equivalent to Plate. Normally this wouldn't matter that much since AC drops off at higher tiers, but with the new AL system I can guarantee that I'll be getting +1 Half Plate and a +3 Shield. Given I'll be taking Shield, Mirror Image, and Blur as of my spells and I have the Defense fighting style, my little Goblin will cap out with a 25 ac that I can boost to 30.

Sure, with +1 Studded Leather, a +3 shield, max Dex, and the shield spell I'd get up to 29, but that +1 to ac really helps due to the bounded accuracy.

[bid]

Why do you assume that I will stop dex at 16, or even 18? Studded Leather can't do what Half plate will do. That's part of why I made this plan: the mid to long term. (We can't afford half plate at this point ...) Dex of 20 and studded still does not equal dex of 16 and half plate, and I do have to consider when to, or not to, boost dex versus when to boost wisdom for some of the Ranger spells that require spell save DC's.
Sorry, I turned your ranger into a Stranger because I thought he was level 14 too.

If you get MAM for free as vuman, you're not trading it with Dex18, no delay here.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sorry, I turned your ranger into a Stranger because I thought he was level 14 too. If you get MAM for free as vuman, you're not trading it with Dex18, no delay here.Correct. No, not level 14. I don't think he'll get to 14 by the time this adventure is over.

the 14th level char was the Champion fighter, sorry for the confusion.

[sir_argo]

If....

You always need ability to use stealth (only party scout?)

and...


You already have access to Medium Armor (Valor Bard or Ranger?)


and...



You don't plan on going passed DEX 16 (and currently, or will shortly have it)




You effectively get a +3 AC




w/o Feat



Chain Shirt AC 13 + 2



** Highest Armor with no Stealth Dis-advantage


This is exactly my situation.

My character is a forest gnome trickster cleric with a 16 dex. 7th level right now, but planning on taking MAM at 8th because I'd net +2 AC. My character is proficient in Stealth and that is a selling point to me for this feat--I get the +2 AC and I don't take disadvantage on Stealth. I should have an AC of 20 and will be filling in holes on the front line (not the main tank). I do not plan on raising DEX.

I have a question... if not MAM, what would be a better choice? Remember my goals are more AC, retain stealth, fill holes on the front line.

[LudicSavant]

Medium Armor Master competes with two other feats in regards to the +1 AC category. Heavily Armored, and Two weapon fighting. In addition to the +1 AC, the former grants an ability point, and the latter significant bonuses to a fighting style. MAM on the other hand only has a secondary effect of removing a penalty to stealth.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see that as being on the same level.

I'll point it out for you then.

Heavily Armored vs Medium Armor Master: If you have 16 Dex, then Half-Plate + Medium Armor Master is the same AC/Movement as Heavily Armored + Full Plate + 15 Strength, except you're stealthy and save 750gp (which, incidentally, is more than the cost of many useful magic items, like... one that gives you +1 AC and +1 to all saves). The real reason to take Heavily Armored would be if you want to be Strength based and bump up an odd Strength score, but Dexterity is often considered the better stat for many builds.

Being dex-based and saving cash would arguably be enough to be competitive with Heavily Armored on its own, but one shouldn't undersell being stealthy. If you can get Surprise, you basically get an entire extra round of actions in a combat, plus a chance to buff yourself or set up the field or position advantageously before the combat starts. It also means that you're not that guy who ruins the party's stealth.

Another way of looking at it is that it is essentially +2 AC over a Breastplate, which shares the "can be stealthy" aspect.

Dual Wielder vs Medium Armor Master: Dual Wielder's main downside is that you have to be wielding two weapons for it to work. For many classes and builds, two-weapon fighting is the weakest fighting style (at least past low levels), even after taking the feat. Sword and shield characters will often actually do more damage than folks with the Dual Wielder feat, while also having considerably better defenses... especially if they grabbed Medium Armor Master instead of spending a feat on Dual Wielder.

___

Is it the best feat? No, it's a situational one. But Heavily Armored and Dual Wielder aren't better off in that regard.

[bid]

Sword and shield characters will often actually do more damage than folks with the Dual Wielder feat,
Huh?

Ignoring mods and feats, TWF does 3d6 ~ 10.5 vs 2d8 ~ 9. That only leaves a single class (fighter) where SnB could do better.

MAM improves your defenses, but can in no way make a SnB do more damage than DW will.

[LudicSavant]

MAM improves your defenses, but can in no way make a SnB do more damage than DW will.

I think you may have misunderstood me. The quoted claim was that SnB can potentially outdamage TWF (with or without Dual Wielder) for certain character types, not that MAM is the cause of this. You yourself just mentioned Fighters as an example of how this can occur.

Examples of ways that SnB can compete with or exceed TWF's damage within the context of a given build:
- Dueling + extra attacks (Haste, Action Surge, Extra Attack feature, Scimitar of Speed, PAM quarterstaff, etc etc)
- Pretty much anything that has a higher damage use for their bonus action.

[guachi]

I think if this were a half feat you'd have almost no one complain it was too powerful. Even if it were a half feat that gave you the option of +1 Strength or +1 Dexterity I doubt there would be too many complaints it was too powerful.

[Cynthaer]

I think if this were a half feat you'd have almost no one complain it was too powerful. Even if it were a half feat that gave you the option of +1 Strength or +1 Dexterity I doubt there would be too many complaints it was too powerful.

The more I think about it, the more I think giving MAM +1 Dex is just a good idea.

I'm satisfied with the scenarios people have presented where they found it appropriate to take MAM in their own games, and I don't think every feat must be equally balanced. I just also think that giving +1 Dex would make the feat feel so much better due to the synergy with its increased Dex bonus cap, while not making it a must-have for anyone with medium armor.

I mean, the only difference is we're saying you need a Dex of 15 instead of 16 to hit 18 AC and no stealth penalty (otherwise you have 16 AC or 17 AC with a stealth penalty). That seems pretty reasonable to me. It would make the feat more attractive to the characters people are already (considering) taking it on without really affecting anybody else.

[bid]

Examples of ways that SnB can compete with or exceed TWF's damage within the context of a given build:
- Dueling + extra attacks (Haste, Action Surge, Extra Attack feature, Scimitar of Speed, PAM quarterstaff, etc etc)
- Pretty much anything that has a higher damage use for their bonus action.
Yeah, with an extra feat or a very rare magic item. That works.
And haste / action surge used at the right time can cover most of your day's needs.

Otherwise even a fighter 20 does less damage with dueling style (+8) than with twf style (1d6+5 ~ 8.5).

[Sigreid]

I think it's a good sign that it's a clearly useful feat that isn't always the right answer. All feats should be like that. It's not really good for the game when a handful of feats are always the right choice.

[Zalabim]

By my powers as a thread Necromancer,
This probably bears repeating.

You effectively get a +3 AC




w/o Feat



Chain Shirt AC 13 + 2



** Highest Armor with no Stealth Dis-advantage




vrs.




w. Feat



Half Plate Armor AC 15 + 3 (= to Plate Mail!)



Dis-advantage on Stealth

Thoughts?
Man, look at all those indents. Anyway, it's +2 AC, because you forgot about Breastplate. On my dwarf warlock, I'm eventually picking up Heavily Armored which will give me +3 AC going to Splint armor right away (stil +2 AC even assuming I could afford half-plate), and eventually +3 or 4 AC for using Plate (when I could afford half-plate at that point), compared to 10 Dex and medium armor. Heavily Armored still gives +1 Str.

Yeah, with an extra feat or a very rare magic item. That works.
And haste / action surge used at the right time can cover most of your day's needs.

Otherwise even a fighter 20 does less damage with dueling style (+8) than with twf style (1d6+5 ~ 8.5).
It's 4d8 (+8 from dueling) vs 4d6 (+1d6+5 from twf and style), which is more like +12 vs +8.5. Then it's +12 again every action surge. In fact, going back to level 5, where it may be +6 vs +7.5, dueling may already deal more damage just with action surge if you get to rest abnormally often (every 4 rounds is where they even out). At level 11, a fighter just generally does more damage with dueling style. If you do take a feat, or get a very rare magic item, then the gap is just worse.

[bid]

It's 4d8 (+8 from dueling) vs 4d6 (+1d6+5 from twf and style)
Not really, since DW vs MAM is part of that discussion.

As I said at the start and you've just shown, fighter is the only class where SnB can be better than TWF.