[3.5] Ways to get wings?

[Valwyn]

I was wondering, what are some ways to get wings on non-winged creatures? I know of some grafts (particularly the ones in the Fiend Folio that turn you evil), but not many.

So far I've found some interesting stuff in the Savage Progression articles, particularly the Half-Fey (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a), the Half-Celestial (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a), and the Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a). Are they any good? And can the half fiend/celestial be entered with lesser tiefling/aasimar?

Mind you, this is permanent wings as opposed to a Fly spell or a Vest of Flying or Animal Devotion or stuff like that. Natural wings are prefered to grafts in case the DM tries to clip them off I can at least regenerate them (already seen it happen, with natural wings, at that). I'm mostly thinking of mundane/limited casting classes, so losing caster levels isn't much of an issue.

Thanks for th help, guys.

[OldTrees1]

Dragonborn

Sorceror + Dragon Wings + Improved Dragon Wings
Dragontouched + Dragon Wings + Improved Dragon Wings

Aberrant Blood + Starspawn



Savage Progressions are at least as good as the template they are based off of(they are pretty much the same just split over multiple +1 LAs rather than a single +N LA)

[SinsI]

One level of Warshaper allows you to grow wings capable of attacking (but not flying).
Some soulmelds give you wings.

[Andezzar]

I was wondering, what are some ways to get wings on non-winged creatures? I know of some grafts (particularly the ones in the Fiend Folio that turn you evil), but not many.Draconic template and two feats (Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon wings) from RotD is another option


So far I've found some interesting stuff in the Savage Progression articles, particularly the Half-Fey (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a), the Half-Celestial (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a), and the Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a). Are they any good? And can the half fiend/celestial be entered with lesser tiefling/aasimar?Ask your DM. I'd say no. The transitional classes get a shorter progression because with the LA of Tiefling and Aasimar you have already paid some of the cost for the Half-Fiend/Celestial. The Lesser versions do not have an LA nor are those creatures Outsiders already.

The selling points of those progressions is the option to play LAed characters as level 1 characters and the not taking all levels of the class trick. If none of those are your intention, there is no reason to use them over the normal templates.

[Larkas]

Favored Soul gets wings eventually. Not really worth it if you weren't considering a divine caster anyways, I suppose.

[Andezzar]

Favored Soul gets wings eventually. Not really worth it if you weren't considering a divine caster anyways, I suppose.Swift Wing gets them earlier (level 10 without shenanigans) and can probably remove them when not needed.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Feathered Wings graft in Fiend Folio costs 10,000 gp, takes ten days to complete, and gives you permanent, nonmagical wings that allow you to fly at twice your land speed with average maneuverability.

It's a fiendish graft, so you take a -6 penalty to Cha-based checks (bluff, diplomacy, wild empathy) when dealing with nonevil creatures. If you're good aligned you have to make a DC 15 Will save every day or take 1d3 Wis damage, as the graft carries an evil presence. If you're not evil aligned you have to make a DC 15 Will save every day or succumb to temptation to perform an evil act, though such acts can be extremely minor, but it could eventually lead to an alignment shift toward evil. It's still the cheapest and most effective way to get nonmagical, non-removable winged flight.

[nedz]

So far I've found some interesting stuff in the Savage Progression articles, particularly the Half-Fey (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a), the Half-Celestial (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a), and the Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a). Are they any good? And can the half fiend/celestial be entered with lesser tiefling/aasimar?

There are typically three routes, e.g.

Half Fey Template
Half Fey Savage Progressions
Fey Touched, Half Fey Transition



Ultimately they all come out as +2 LA

The advantages of the Savage Progressions stuff is that you can play such a character from level 1 and you don't ever have to take the full progression.

[Larkas]

There are typically three routes, e.g.

Half Fey Template
Half Fey Savage Progressions
Fey Touched, Half Fey Transition



Ultimately they all come out as +2 LA

The advantages of the Savage Progressions stuff is that you can play such a character from level 1 and you don't ever have to take the full progression.

Oooooh, you're a genius, Ned! See, you can always take the Unseelie Fey template for LA +0!

[ranagrande]

If you're using flaws, you do the Aberrant feat chain from Lords of Madness to have wings and flight at level one.

The Winged Creature template from Savage Species or the much better Half-Fey template from Fiend Folio will do it for +2 LA.

For +3 LA you can get Half-Dragon.

Half-Celestial or Half-Fiend are +4 LA.

If you go for the Dragon Wing feats, you'll be able to fly at level 6.

Most classes that offer wings tend to do so very late: Favored Soul 17, Dragon Disciple or Geomancer 9, and such.

As far as I know, the earliest you can get flight from classes is at level 9, as a Wizard or Wu Jen 5/Rainbow Servant 4.

[Bronk]

Well, these aren't easy options, but there's also ten levels of dragon disciple to get dragon wings or 5 levels of druid to get wild shape.

There's also another wing graft, 'Zelekhut Wings' from dragon 315 for 100,000g. Expensive, but doesn't turn you evil.

Although... it sounds like your DM really doesn't want you to fly if he's going around clipping people's wings off!

[Elycium]

Just saying but, couldn´t you just find a powerful enough wizard and make you a Polymorph any object to have them permanently? You just have to choose to even fail the save, if you want to make the spell succeed.

[Andezzar]

The Winged Creature template from Savage Species or the much better Half-Fey template from Fiend Folio will do it for +2 LA.And with DEX 17+ you can even get perfect maneuverability.


For +3 LA you can get Half-Dragon.Half-Dragons don't have wings unless they are large or bigger.


As far as I know, the earliest you can get flight from classes is at level 9, as a Wizard or Wu Jen 5/Rainbow Servant 4.Not sure what you mean, Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm) is a 3rd level spell, so it can be taken at level 5. With the right type you can also use alter self to get flight at level 3, but none of those are permanent.

[SangoProduction]

And with DEX 17+ you can even get perfect maneuverability.

Half-Dragons don't have wings unless they are large or bigger.

Not sure what you mean, Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm) is a 3rd level spell, so it can be taken at level 5. With the right type you can also use alter self to get flight at level 3, but none of those are permanent.

The op said permanent, not spell, flying. The Rainbow Servant gives wings.

[Red Fel]

Dragonborn

I'm still kind of shocked that this has only been posted once in this thread.

Dragonborn (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) is an LA +0 template - that's right, zero - in Races of the Dragon. It's not even an inherited template - it is taken on via ritual, and thus can be acquired by almost anybody.

Yes, even Warforged.

In addition to ability modifiers and the like, Dragonborn gives you a choice of three Aspect options. One of them is the Wings aspect. This choice immediately grants natural, (Ex) wings that provide gliding. At 6 HD (or level 6, for most PCs), this becomes flight.

You gain natural, (Ex) flight at level 6. At 12 HD, you can fly without exhaustion. You also gain a dive attack.

You do lose out on other racial abilities, which Dragonborn replaces. But if the goal is permanent, (Ex) flight, this one's practically a no-brainer.

[nedz]

Oooooh, you're a genius, Ned! See, you can always take the Unseelie Fey template for LA +0!

Fine, but that only gives you a 50% chance of being able to fly. Also, the LA +0 is debatable — it's simply not listed.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm still kind of shocked that this has only been posted once in this thread.

Dragonborn (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) is an LA +0 template - that's right, zero - in Races of the Dragon. It's not even an inherited template - it is taken on via ritual, and thus can be acquired by almost anybody.

Yes, even Warforged.

In addition to ability modifiers and the like, Dragonborn gives you a choice of three Aspect options. One of them is the Wings aspect. This choice immediately grants natural, (Ex) wings that provide gliding. At 6 HD (or level 6, for most PCs), this becomes flight.

You gain natural, (Ex) flight at level 6. At 12 HD, you can fly without exhaustion. You also gain a dive attack.

You do lose out on other racial abilities, which Dragonborn replaces. But if the goal is permanent, (Ex) flight, this one's practically a no-brainer.

Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1)

I think you mean it's an acquired template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#templates), but the rest is still good advice.

Also note that a Dragonborn Warforged would keep the Living Construct subtype and everything that comes with it, only losing the default composite plating and light fortification. You would still retain the benefits of Adamantine Body or Mithral Body or similar.

[Larkas]

Fine, but that only gives you a 50% chance of being able to fly. Also, the LA +0 is debatable — it's simply not listed.

Indeed. It's not even LA: --, though. Which only serves to compound the "debatable" picture.


Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1)

I think you mean it's an acquired template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#templates), but the rest is still good advice.

Also note that a Dragonborn Warforged would keep the Living Construct subtype and everything that comes with it, only losing the default composite plating and light fortification. You would still retain the benefits of Adamantine Body or Mithral Body or similar.

Of course. You're a Dragonborn of Bahamut. Why would he take metally things out of you? :smallbiggrin:

[Bobbybobby99]

Don't forget Geomancer! They can get drift wings after taking nine levels of the class.

[DarkSonic1337]

Somewhat on topic, what ways are there to get wings that you are capable of attacking with as part of a natural attack routine (either as primary or secondary natural attacks)? For these it doesn't really matter if they grant you the ability to fly or not, just that you'd be able to add them onto say...a bite/claw/claw routine.

[AmberVael]

If you're a tiefling or aasimar you can get wings via the Outsider Wings feat (from Races of Faerun), though you do need to take another feat as a prerequisite.

[Valwyn]

Wow, these are more options than I expected. Thanks a lot, guys! :smallbiggrin:


Although... it sounds like your DM really doesn't want you to fly if he's going around clipping people's wings off!

To be fair, an enemy army captured a raptoran PC and they wanted to "question" her, so clipping her wings was a good way to keep her from flying away if she ever got the chance to escape. His bad guys are pretty savvy/effective, so he might do it again if he gets the chance. :smallfrown:

[Darrin]

In addition to ability modifiers and the like, Dragonborn gives you a choice of three Aspect options. One of them is the Wings aspect. This choice immediately grants natural, (Ex) wings that provide gliding. At 6 HD (or level 6, for most PCs), this becomes flight.

You gain natural, (Ex) flight at level 6. At 12 HD, you can fly without exhaustion. You also gain a dive attack.


You can also choose the Heart aspect (breath weapon) or Mind aspect (blindsense), and swap one of your existing feats for the Dragon Wings feat. This puts you one feat away (Improved Dragon Wings) from getting the same Flight ability as the Wings aspect. There are several base classes and ACFs with bonus feats that aren't particularly effective or become less useful at higher levels of play. Here's a list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16967823&postcount=7)

If you're a human and don't want to lose your 1st level bonus feat, you can also lose one of your existing feats gained as a class ability instead of your 1st level bonus feat.

I'm particularly fond of using Rangers for this (I'm looking at you, Track and Endurance), but Dragonborn adds Fighter as a favored class. There's an optional rule in Races of Stone that lets fighters trade their tower shield proficiency for the Exotic Shield Proficiency feat (subject to DM approval). This allows you to dip one level of fighter, spend 100 GP on your Ritual of Rebirth, take the Heart aspect for a breath weapon, trade Exotic Shield Proficiency for Dragon Wings, and then take Improved Dragon Wings once you hit 6HD/9HD/12HD/etc.


Somewhat on topic, what ways are there to get wings that you are capable of attacking with as part of a natural attack routine (either as primary or secondary natural attacks)? For these it doesn't really matter if they grant you the ability to fly or not, just that you'd be able to add them onto say...a bite/claw/claw routine.

The only way I'm aware of was in Dragon Magazine #350. Totemist Soulmeld: Chaos Roc's Span gives you two wing buffet attacks.

Speaking of soulmelds:

Airstep Sandals bound to your feet chakra give you a fly speed (10' + 10' per essentia) with perfect maneuverability. Without the chakra bind, you have to start and end your movement on a solid surface, but it's not clear if that restriction still applies when you bind it and can hover whenever you like. If you're using Shape Soulmeld/Open Least Chakra, this is available at ECL 6.

Pegasus Cloak bound to your shoulder chakra gives you a fly speed (10' per essentia) with average maneuverability. No "solid surface" requirements. Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders) is available at ECL 12.

Manticore Belt bound to your waist chakra gives you a fly speed (10' per essentia) with poor maneuverability, but you also get the Flyby Attack feat for free. Open Greater Chakra (Waist) won't work until ECL 18.

Astral Vambraces bound to your arms chakra lets you pick a special ability from Astral Construct Menu A, which includes fly 20' (average), no essentia required. As with the Pegasus Cloak, Open Lesser Chakra (Arms) is available at ECL 12.

Or the easiest way... Animal Devotion (Complete Champion) can give you fly 40' (average) 1/day, lasts 10 rounds. You can take this at 1st level. If you have turn undead, you can spend 3 TUs to activate it again. Or take the feat multiple times. This one can really surprise some DMs who aren't expecting a 1st level character to be able to fly.

[nedz]

It's not even LA: --, though. Which only serves to compound the "debatable" picture.

Isn't it LA —— ? Who knows ?

[Larkas]

Isn't it LA —— ? Who knows ?

Nope. There simply isn't an entry for LA in the template.

[nedz]

Nope. There simply isn't an entry for LA in the template.

Exactly ! It could be -- or +0 or +9001 ...

[The Viscount]

Unseelie Fey has no listed LA, it is never mentioned in the template writeup. By the rules this means it defaults to LA-.
The kerfuffle comes from the sample unseelie fey, a gnome warrior, having a listed LA of +0. Some argue this means the template was meant to be +0. Others argue that sample characters are always wrong, and this is no exception.

Note that if you use airstep sandals, the maneuverability is good unless you bind them. There are some who point out that you only have to end your movement supported, and that using them to hover isn't moving. Some DMs might rule against it, but it's worth asking.

[ranagrande]

Somewhat on topic, what ways are there to get wings that you are capable of attacking with as part of a natural attack routine (either as primary or secondary natural attacks)? For these it doesn't really matter if they grant you the ability to fly or not, just that you'd be able to add them onto say...a bite/claw/claw routine.

There is also the Buffeting Wings graft in Races of the Dragon. It gives you flight and two wing attacks for 100,000 gold.

[Curmudgeon]

Oooooh, you're a genius, Ned! See, you can always take the Unseelie Fey template for LA +0!
The DM can have you roll randomly: 33% chance of not getting wings; 17% chance that the wings don't work; only a 50% chance of functioning wings. Also this template makes you Evil at birth.

The Starspawn [Aberrant] feat is OK if you need to be non-Evil, though you'll need 2 other [Aberrant] feats to qualify.

You can play an Avariel (winged Elf) from Races of Faerûn (page 31), but it's LA +3.

Raptoran is really your best bet for non-Evil wings. If your wings are racial rather than from templates or feats you can add the Air Heritage feat (Planar Handbook, pages 37-38) for +30' to your fly speed.

Dragon Wings only requires dragonblood subtype. You don't need a template for that, because you can pick alternative races with the subtype (see Dragon Magic starting on page 5): Silverbrow Human, Deepwyrm Drow and Half-Drow, Fireblood Dwarf, Forestlord Elf and Half-Elf, Stonehunter Gnome, Glimmerskin Halfling, even Viletooth Lizardfolk, Sunscorch Hobgoblin, and Frostblood Orc and Half-Orc.

[Andry]

Outsider Wings
( Races of Faerûn, p. 167)

[General]

You have sprouted wings appropriate to your heritage, revealing the power of your supernatural bloodline.
Prerequisite

Celestial Bloodline (DC) (or) , Fiendish Bloodline (DC) , Aasimar or Tiefling, Base Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves +2,
Benefit

You gain wings (feathered if an aasimar, batlike if a tiefling), allowing you to fly at your land speed (average maneuverability). A medium or heavy load that would reduce your land speed reduces your fly speed a proportionate amount.

[Necroticplague]

Unseelie Fey has no listed LA, it is never mentioned in the template writeup. By the rules this means it defaults to LA-.
The kerfuffle comes from the sample unseelie fey, a gnome warrior, having a listed LA of +0. Some argue this means the template was meant to be +0. Others argue that sample characters are always wrong, and this is no exception.

The bolded part isn't how templates work.

Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as “Same as the base creature.” So if it doesn't have a specific "LA:" entry, it defaults to "as base creature". Thus, the example and the rules agree, it's an LA: As base creature template (as the base creature, a gnome, has LA:0).

[nedz]

But we also have

Starting Level of a Monster PC

Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics.
Which implies LA --

[Curmudgeon]

Unseelie Fey has no listed LA, it is never mentioned in the template writeup.
It is mentioned, but buried in the sample creature (Summer Unseelie Fey 1st-Level Gnome Warrior). This creature without the template has LA +0; with the template it's explicitly still LA +0. It's awkwardly located in the rules, but that's not the same as being undeclared.

[Necroticplague]

But we also have

Which implies LA --

Which is irrelevant, because we're talking about templates, not races.

[nedz]

Which is irrelevant, because we're talking about templates, not races.

True.

I'm trying to find where in the SRD it mentions LA -- for templates ?

[Larkas]

True.

I'm trying to find where in the SRD it mentions LA -- for templates ?

Tbh, I don't think I've ever seen a "LA: --" template.

[nedz]

Tbh, I don't think I've ever seen a "LA: --" template.

Hmm, Skeleton is LA: None

Several have no listed LA, only CR. This is especially true of undead ones.

[Bronk]

Fine, but that only gives you a 50% chance of being able to fly. Also, the LA +0 is debatable — it's simply not listed.

I have to agree... Both the Seelie and Unseelie fey templates are from an article in Dragon 304. Seelie is listed as 'CR+1' and Unseelie is listed as 'As base creature.' The big problem is that both are 3.0 material that isn't officially updated anywhere else, so that leaves it in the realm of the individual DM to decide what any of that means in 3.5.

[Curmudgeon]

I have to agree... Both the Seelie and Unseelie fey templates are from an article in Dragon 304. Seelie is listed as 'CR+1' and Unseelie is listed as 'As base creature.' The big problem is that both are 3.0 material that isn't officially updated anywhere else, so that leaves it in the realm of the individual DM to decide what any of that means in 3.5.
You appear to have overlooked the 3.5 updates in Dragon Compendium (pages 222-223 for Unseelie Fey; pages 214-216 for Seelie Court Fey).

[ranagrande]

Tbh, I don't think I've ever seen a "LA: --" template.

Elder Eidolon from Lords of Madness is LA: --. There are probably others.

[Bronk]

You appear to have overlooked the 3.5 updates in Dragon Compendium (pages 222-223 for Unseelie Fey; pages 214-216 for Seelie Court Fey).

I had... Thanks for the citation!

Update: After looking at it, I still agree with Nedz though. As the section stands, the Dragon Compendium version still only lists a CR adjustment for Seelie, nothing for Unseelie, and the chapter heading specifies that everything is meant to be a 'foe' for the PCs rather than a PC option, which would imply a LA --.

Since you have to run these things past a DM before using them anyway, though, I don't see it as a big deal.

[The Viscount]

The bolded part isn't how templates work.
So if it doesn't have a specific "LA:" entry, it defaults to "as base creature". Thus, the example and the rules agree, it's an LA: As base creature template (as the base creature, a gnome, has LA:0).
I suppose I am using the rule for monsters and applying it through to templates. I'll keep searching for a more specific rule, but in the meantime can you honestly tell me you believe vampire lord was intended to be an LA 0 template?


It is mentioned, but buried in the sample creature (Summer Unseelie Fey 1st-Level Gnome Warrior). This creature without the template has LA +0; with the template it's explicitly still LA +0. It's awkwardly located in the rules, but that's not the same as being undeclared.

I said as such in my post. While the sample does have an LA of 0, I ask whether we trust the sample character enough to say that this +0 holds. Also, there are almost no LA 0 templates, and those that exist come with some cost (Primordial Giant requires giant, which carries its own LA, Necropolitan costs a level and some XP, Amphibious penalizes Dex) which Unseelie Fey does not have.

[Andezzar]

I suppose I am using the rule for monsters and applying it through to templates. I'll keep searching for a more specific rule, but in the meantime can you honestly tell me you believe vampire lord was intended to be an LA 0 template?I don't know about that but an error in a specific template does not remove the other rules of the template or other templates. Anyways, the Vampire Lord has a de facto LA of 8, because the base creature has to have the Vampire template.
Vampire lord is a template that can be applied to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature with a character level of at least 10 that has already had the vampire template applied to it (hereafter referred to as the "base vampire"). So, make a vampire, and then apply this template to it. The creature uses all the special abilities of the base vampire, except as noted below.



I said as such in my post. While the sample does have an LA of 0, I ask whether we trust the sample character enough to say that this +0 holds. Also, there are almost no LA 0 templates, and those that exist come with some cost (Primordial Giant requires giant, which carries its own LA, Necropolitan costs a level and some XP, Amphibious penalizes Dex) which Unseelie Fey does not have.While the Necropolitan template has a similar cost it is in fact LA: +0, as it does not change the base creature's LA. Also nearly all templates have the following line:
A celestial creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and abilities except as noted here.So a missing LA entry means that the LA of the base creature is not changed. If such a template can be applied to LA:+0 creatures the templated creature will still have LA:+0 Whether that is intentional is anyone's guess, but absent any errata that's how it works.

[Necroticplague]

I suppose I am using the rule for monsters and applying it through to templates. I'll keep searching for a more specific rule, but in the meantime can you honestly tell me you believe vampire lord was intended to be an LA 0 template?
Well, it requires you to have 8 LA from a vampire template, and then have 10 levels on top of that, so its impossible to get before ECL18, so its not like it'll comer online at a level where anything could break as a result of it.