Underrated Spells [5e]

[MrConsideration]

Does anyone have a spell that they think its widely under-rated in guides and similar?

Share your stories here!

My group had to capture a heavily guarded ship. My Trickery Cleric used several castings of Pass Without Trace to sneak around the cliffs, allowing us to climb down on a rope to the ship and up anchor before engaging any enemies - we repelled a few boarders then sailed away into the sunset. It's the ultimate stealth spell and it affects the whole party.

My Cleric also used Spirit Guardians and Mirror Image to great effect, wading into melee and dropping oodles of damage and, more usefully, forcing the foes to scatter to avoid the damage.

[ImSAMazing]

Mending is underrated in most guides, but it saved our boat when we were attacked by sharks.

[HoarsHalberd]

Spirit guardians and pass without trace are incredibly highly rated spells anyway because they are good picks.

[INDYSTAR188]

I think Spike Growth and Catapult (Elemental Evil) are pretty awesome spells, not quite as popular as shilelagh and some other spells I see often.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Spirit guardians and pass without trace are incredibly highly rated spells anyway because they are good picks.

That's what I was thinking. This thread needs more stories about people using Crown of Madness to good effect.

[Ralanr]

Anyone who discredits bane has not seen it in the hands of my friend. It's been his go to debuff for his halfling wizard.

-1d4 on rolls has saved his level 5 butt from that Yuan-ti abomination while my barbarian was feared.

[Tedbomb]

i just started my second 5e campaign and went druid this time. i helped my team melt the boss' face 3 out of 4 times with a successful entangle

[TurboGhast]

I find that guides underrate Color Spray. Blindness is a highly powerful condition, and one round of it lets you get in other attacks a lot easier, especially moves powerful enough to take you foes. It also is a lot easier to land Color Spray than Sleep, which most guides recommend you take instead.

[PoeticDwarf]

i just started my second 5e campaign and went druid this time. i helped my team melt the boss' face 3 out of 4 times with a successful entangle

Entangle is so cool, my monk/druid used all his spell slots on entangle.

[MaxWilson]

There are a lot of good spells out there, but as for "underrated" spells which conventional wisdom says are bad but are actually good...

Longstrider is the only one that springs immediately to mind. A lot of guides seem to view it as mediocre, but in my experience it is quite good in many situations if your party knows how to use it. Here's the key observation: opportunity attacks are usually worse than full attacks. (Because neither multiattack nor Extra Attack is usable on an opportunity attack, and incidentally neither are Push and Grapple.) Longstrider is a 1-hour no-concentration spell, castable on allies, which scales with spell slot level, that makes you fast enough to convert attacks from most monsters into opportunity attacks. (E.g. attack in melee, then move 40' away. The monster can move 30' toward you, or move 60' on a Dash, but it can't make a regular attack against you this turn. The opportunity attack on your turn is the only attack it gets.) That can cut damage by 50%, which is sort of like turning into a barbearian.

(It's not a spell, but the (Hunter) ranger's Escape the Horde ability is good in a similar way and combos well with Longstrider.)

Hmmm, what else? [thinks]

Otto's Irresistable Dance is underrated by some sources, including TreantMonk's 5E guide, which rates it as "terrible." IMO it's very, very good for any party with a ranged capability, especially if you rely on summons. It bypasses legendary resistance and forces the enemy to either lose an action getting free, or stand immobile. Against e.g. a (vanilla) ancient dragon with a breath weapon range of only 90', being immobile is the same as being rendered ineffective. Its primary deficit is its short range, but see my next paragraph...

Phantom Steed doesn't show up much in chatter, but a steed with 100' movement means that you can get 200' of free movement on your turn under 5E's mounted combat rules (by making your steed dash), or 100' with a free disengage. What that means is that you can, for example, start 130' away from an ancient red dragon, make your Phantom Steed mount move to 30', cast Otto's Irresistable Dance to nail that dragon to the floor, and then have your mount Dash away back to 130' so you're out of breath weapon distance. Meanwhile, everybody else has free advantage to attack the dragon with their melee or especially ranged attacks--which can cancel out a range penalty if your skeletal archers are dispersed over a wide area for protection.

(And that, my friends, is why I don't run vanilla dragons. All my dragons have Dragon Sorcerer levels, so killing them becomes a lot more complicated than just hitting the dragon with Otto's and a bunch of skeletal archers and giant owls. The dragon could Counterspell your Otto's, or do a Quickened Dispel Magic, or a Quickened Dimension Door... the uncertainty of facing a spellcasting dragon is way more fun and interesting than just fighting a bag of HP like the vanilla dragon.)

-Max

[JAL_1138]

Comprehend Languages has been massively, ridiculously useful to me, and is the sort of spell guides tend to rank low to middlin'.

I'm really, really regretting not having taken Lesser Restoration too, for all those times in Adventurer's League when nobody but the bard can do any healing whatsoever (for some reason nobody plays clerics at the game store I frequent).

Prestidigitation has been SO much more useful than Minor Illusion, which guides tend to suggest instead. Try causing it to make the smell of a snake right under the nose of someone's mount, for a niche combat use. Mostly, the "cleaning" use has been the one I've gotten the most mileage out of, believe it or not. I'm the guy who cleans the gore and grime off everyone with a quick cantrip after combats or sewer-dungeons, and I've used it to clean up more than a few bloodstains from various NPCs/enemies after we've killed them and hidden the bodies.

[SharkForce]

Otto's Irresistable Dance is underrated by some sources, including TreantMonk's 5E guide, which rates it as "terrible." IMO it's very, very good for any party with a ranged capability, especially if you rely on summons. It bypasses legendary resistance and forces the enemy to either lose an action getting free, or stand immobile. Against e.g. a (vanilla) ancient dragon with a breath weapon range of only 90', being immobile is the same as being rendered ineffective. Its primary deficit is its short range, but see my next paragraph...

Phantom Steed doesn't show up much in chatter, but a steed with 100' movement means that you can get 200' of free movement on your turn under 5E's mounted combat rules (by making your steed dash), or 100' with a free disengage. What that means is that you can, for example, start 130' away from an ancient red dragon, make your Phantom Steed mount move to 30', cast Otto's Irresistable Dance to nail that dragon to the floor, and then have your mount Dash away back to 130' so you're out of breath weapon distance. Meanwhile, everybody else has free advantage to attack the dragon with their melee or especially ranged attacks--which can cancel out a range penalty if your skeletal archers are dispersed over a wide area for protection.

(And that, my friends, is why I don't run vanilla dragons. All my dragons have Dragon Sorcerer levels, so killing them becomes a lot more complicated than just hitting the dragon with Otto's and a bunch of skeletal archers and giant owls. The dragon could Counterspell your Otto's, or do a Quickened Dispel Magic, or a Quickened Dimension Door... the uncertainty of facing a spellcasting dragon is way more fun and interesting than just fighting a bag of HP like the vanilla dragon.)

-Max
unfortunately, it is largely outdone by bigby's hand. it also holds most dragons at bay, but can be cast from much further away, never allows a save, and also costs actions to get past.

[INDYSTAR188]

unfortunately, it is largely outdone by bigby's hand. it also holds most dragons at bay, but can be cast from much further away, never allows a save, and also costs actions to get past.

Bigby's Hand is also 5th level.

[JAL_1138]

Bigby's Hand is also 5th level.

Bigby's Hand also doesn't encourage a bard to grab a guitar and start hollering the "NOW DANCE, F***ER, DANCE!" part of The Offspring's "You're Gonna Go Far, Kid" (or, for something less '90s, simply cackle "Muahaha, dance, monkey, dance!" in a stereotypical villain voice), whereas Irresistable Dance is tailor-made for it. :smalltongue:

[MaxWilson]

unfortunately, it is largely outdone by bigby's hand. it also holds most dragons at bay, but can be cast from much further away, never allows a save, and also costs actions to get past.

I'm afraid that a 50% chance of restraining a target, which can be eliminated in a partial action or legendary action (e.g. tail attacks), doesn't really fill the same niche as Otto's Irresistable Dance. The only thing it's got going for it is the increased range, but as I mentioned, a good Phantom Steed (or maybe a giant eagle or hippogriff) can mitigate the range issue for you instead. Or just use total cover. There shouldn't really be any dragon-fighting situations where neither total cover nor a steed can help you--what obviates one enables the other.

[INDYSTAR188]

Bigby's Hand also doesn't encourage a bard to grab a guitar and start hollering the "NOW DANCE, F***ER, DANCE!" part of The Offspring's "You're Gonna Go Far, Kid" (or, for something less '90s, simply cackle "Muahaha, dance, monkey, dance!" in a stereotypical villain voice), whereas Irresistable Dance is tailor-made for it. :smalltongue:

Which of course makes it a fantastically fun and awesome spell, just not as mechanically good as Bigby. I always think of the glove from the Mario universe tho.

[JAL_1138]

Use Create/Destroy Water in conjunction with a little physics to create water rockets, ordnance-launchers, or cause implosions (fill a space with water, then destroy the water; could be used with a piston and lever and alternate between Create and Destroy to deliver serious mechanical force), pair it with a lit flask of oil to cause a rapidly-spreading fire, combine it with ice spells cast by someone else to burst a lock or crack a wall, or try Flesh to Stone, Stone to Mud, (Create Water if needed to make the mud more liquid), then Purify Food & Drink, then Destroy Water, to utterly obliterate something.

[Ralanr]

Create water + shocking grasp. Please tell me someone has abused this.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Thaumaturgy I think is highly underrated. Nothing says, "Me and my God just entered the building," like flickering lights, a darkening of the light and thunderclaps. I use it on my cleric who has a Charisma of 8 and only speaks in Dwarven to indicate his displeasure at all the other players (he's very grumpy and also racist).

[JoeJ]

Create water + shocking grasp. Please tell me someone has abused this.

That would require DM fiat. By RAW, water has no particular effect on Shocking Grasp.

[Ralanr]

That would require DM fiat. By RAW, water has no particular effect on Shocking Grasp.

Boo. I can't imagine a DM arguing that the water doesn't conduct electricity. I can see it not giving the extra effect, but it should spread the damage.

[JoeJ]

Boo. I can't imagine a DM arguing that the water doesn't conduct electricity. I can see it not giving the extra effect, but it should spread the damage.

Ah, but shocking grasp creates magic lightning, not regular electricity. I don't see anything in either the PH or the DMG about magic lightning working differently underwater, so presumably it doesn't. OTOH, if the party were for some reason fighting Captain Marvel, a good argument could be made that shocking grasp would turn him back into Billy Batson. (Practical application of this is left as an exercise for the reader.)

[Ralanr]

Ah, but shocking grasp creates magic lightning, not regular electricity. I don't see anything in either the PH or the DMG about magic lightning working differently underwater, so presumably it doesn't. OTOH, if the party were for some reason fighting Captain Marvel, a good argument could be made that shocking grasp would turn him back into Billy Batson. (Practical application of this is left as an exercise for the reader.)

Touché good person.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Boo. I can't imagine a DM arguing that the water doesn't conduct electricity.

Water does not conduct electricity.

http://video.mit.edu/watch/does-water-conduct-electricity-8407/

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae61.cfm

[SharkForce]

I'm afraid that a 50% chance of restraining a target, which can be eliminated in a partial action or legendary action (e.g. tail attacks), doesn't really fill the same niche as Otto's Irresistable Dance. The only thing it's got going for it is the increased range, but as I mentioned, a good Phantom Steed (or maybe a giant eagle or hippogriff) can mitigate the range issue for you instead. Or just use total cover. There shouldn't really be any dragon-fighting situations where neither total cover nor a steed can help you--what obviates one enables the other.

they have a 0% chance of pushing past a bigby's hand that merely interposes itself. and it will keep them from moving towards the caster, no problem.

very few dragons (or other creatures) are actually strong enough to be able to push past. even the ancient dragons mostly are not strong enough. if they want to push past, they have to spend the actions to kill it.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Water does not conduct electricity.

http://video.mit.edu/watch/does-water-conduct-electricity-8407/

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae61.cfm

That's what I was going to say. A cleric casting Create Water is definitely creating pure water.

[Ralanr]

Water does not conduct electricity.

http://video.mit.edu/watch/does-water-conduct-electricity-8407/

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae61.cfm

That's what I was going to say. A cleric casting Create Water is definitely creating pure water.

I know pure water doesn't conduct electricity, but isn't water of that purity unsafe to drink? If that's explained in the article then I didn't read it (phone).

[JAL_1138]

I know pure water doesn't conduct electricity, but isn't water of that purity unsafe to drink? If that's explained in the article then I didn't read it (phone).

Not unsafe at all. At the very, absolute worst, if your diet does not include sufficient amount of trace minerals, you might whizz somewhat more often and have slightly low potassium, calcium, magnesium, or sodium. All of which can be very easily compensated for with a healthy diet including fruit, dairy, and green vegetables, though. Deionized water also tastes somewhat unpleasant/flat. It's "better" to drink water that's neither deionized nor hard, as the minerals will supplement dietary deficiencies but won't lead to, for instance, hypercalcemia (which hard (high-mineral) water can cause over time, especially if you also have dietary magnesium deficiency). But there's nothing directly harmful about it.

[HoarsHalberd]

Over the average dirty dungeon floor or patch of soil it should pick up enough impurities to transmit electricity however.

[dropbear8mybaby]

Over the average dirty dungeon floor or patch of soil it should pick up enough impurities to transmit electricity however.

Then you're distributing charge over a large surface area reducing amperage and thus net effect (at least this is how it was explained to me). Shocking Grasp is like a quick touch with a taser, not a sustained electrical current.

[Ralanr]

Then you're distributing charge over a large surface area reducing amperage and thus net effect (at least this is how it was explained to me). Shocking Grasp is like a quick touch with a taser, not a sustained electrical current.

I always assumed it was a full taser rather than a quick touch.

[dropbear8mybaby]

I always assumed it was a full taser rather than a quick touch.

Eh, all it does is a bit of damage and prevents the target from taking reactions. If it was a full taser effect, it'd render the target prone and paralysed :D

[Ralanr]

Eh, all it does is a bit of damage and prevents the target from taking reactions. If it was a full taser effect, it'd render the target prone and paralysed :D

It's funny how spells like lightning bolt don't do similar things (AFB).

[MaxWilson]

they have a 0% chance of pushing past a bigby's hand that merely interposes itself. and it will keep them from moving towards the caster, no problem.

very few dragons (or other creatures) are actually strong enough to be able to push past. even the ancient dragons mostly are not strong enough. if they want to push past, they have to spend the actions to kill it.

That's not terrible, but it's still inferior to Otto's on two counts:

1.) The dragon can kill the hand with Legendary Actions instead of a regular Action, and can also kill it with an attack (breath weapon) which also damages other PCs. In contrast, Otto's requires the dragon to dedicate its full action and possibly a legendary resistance to breaking free, so Otto's is better at helping you dominate the action economy.

2.) While it lasts, Otto's also has a stronger effect: all PCs and summons will have advantage to attack the dragon, which has disadvantage to attack back.

Bigby's Hand is not terrible, but it does not in any way render Otto's redundant. It's very clear which of them is a 6th level spell and which is merely 5th level.

This was the original claim from post #12:


unfortunately, it is largely outdone by bigby's hand. it also holds most dragons at bay, but can be cast from much further away, never allows a save, and also costs actions to get past.

Hopefully it's clear now why I strongly disagree with that claim.

[Psikerlord]

Thaumaturgy I think is highly underrated. Nothing says, "Me and my God just entered the building," like flickering lights, a darkening of the light and thunderclaps. I use it on my cleric who has a Charisma of 8 and only speaks in Dwarven to indicate his displeasure at all the other players (he's very grumpy and also racist).

that. is. Awesome. :smallsmile:

[SharkForce]

That's not terrible, but it's still inferior to Otto's on two counts:

1.) The dragon can kill the hand with Legendary Actions instead of a regular Action, and can also kill it with an attack (breath weapon) which also damages other PCs. In contrast, Otto's requires the dragon to dedicate its full action and possibly a legendary resistance to breaking free, so Otto's is better at helping you dominate the action economy.

2.) While it lasts, Otto's also has a stronger effect: all PCs and summons will have advantage to attack the dragon, which has disadvantage to attack back.

Bigby's Hand is not terrible, but it does not in any way render Otto's redundant. It's very clear which of them is a 6th level spell and which is merely 5th level.

This was the original claim from post #12:

Hopefully it's clear now why I strongly disagree with that claim.


which legendary action is dealing ~100+ damage to a 20 AC target, out of curiosity? that feels suspiciously like you're going to need several legendary actions as a bare minimum, and furthermore sounds like the dragon spent actions that would have dealt over 100 damage to people in your party on destroying a hand that frankly only exists to occupy the dragon's attention anyways. even a full attack from ancient dragons where everything hits isn't likely to do more than 60-70ish damage (legendary actions on top of said full attack can, of course, increase that, but if it costs the dragon all of its actions to defeat the hand, well, now the hand is costing the dragon all actions, not just the one, is it not? not to mention AC 20 will likely mean the dragon only hits ~60-70% of the time, so shave off even more of that damage.

and umm... not a lot of dragons can even reach 120 feet with their breath weapon (ancient blue and bronze are it), how many do you imagine will be hitting your entire party 120 or more feet away while they use ranged attacks or slaughter their minions? i don't care if i have advantage to hit the dragon if i get to make attacks and it doesn't. not to mention various dragon attacks don't use attack rolls anyways.

don't get me wrong, i'm glad if i can get advantage against a tough opponent like a dragon while the dragon has disadvantage against me. but i'm even more glad if the dragon doesn't get to attack us at all.

[Ralanr]

I beat you could cheat at dice games with thatamurgy.

[dropbear8mybaby]

I beat you could cheat at dice games with thatamurgy.

NPC: Natural 20!

PC (casts thaumaturgy and the ground shakes, knocking the die to a 1): Nope, my turn.

[Naanomi]

I love Magic Stone. While for myself most other cantrips end up better, the ability to hand them off to friends, familiars, peasants... So much surprise and tactical potential

[MaxWilson]

which legendary action is dealing ~100+ damage to a 20 AC target, out of curiosity? that feels suspiciously like you're going to need several legendary actions as a bare minimum, and furthermore sounds like the dragon spent actions that would have dealt over 100 damage to people in your party on destroying a hand that frankly only exists to occupy the dragon's attention anyways. even a full attack from ancient dragons where everything hits isn't likely to do more than 60-70ish damage (legendary actions on top of said full attack can, of course, increase that, but if it costs the dragon all of its actions to defeat the hand, well, now the hand is costing the dragon all actions, not just the one, is it not? not to mention AC 20 will likely mean the dragon only hits ~60-70% of the time, so shave off even more of that damage.

and umm... not a lot of dragons can even reach 120 feet with their breath weapon (ancient blue and bronze are it), how many do you imagine will be hitting your entire party 120 or more feet away while they use ranged attacks or slaughter their minions? i don't care if i have advantage to hit the dragon if i get to make attacks and it doesn't. not to mention various dragon attacks don't use attack rolls anyways.

don't get me wrong, i'm glad if i can get advantage against a tough opponent like a dragon while the dragon has disadvantage against me. but i'm even more glad if the dragon doesn't get to attack us at all.

1.) How many wizards have 100+ HP at level 11? Even 81 HP is very much on the high end unless you've Magic Jar'ed a weretiger or something.

2.) The hand moves 60' per round. The dragon moves 80' per round (160' on Dash) plus 40' on a Wing buffet. The hand is unlikely to be able to block the dragon's movement except in the most confined of spaces because the dragon can simply move around. (The dragon is barred from entering the hand's space according to the spell text, but there's a lot of space that the hand doesn't fill.) In a space so confined that even superior movement can't get around the hand, you might as well have just used Wall of Force instead.

3.) Let's ignore point #2 and stipulate that the hand successfully intercepts the dragon. Let's further presuppose that everything you write above is true, that the dragon is entirely out of range of any party members when Bigby's Hand is cast while the party slaughters it to death with ranged attacks and that the wizard has 100 HP so the hand does too. Let's say it's an adult red. The dragon will take at least a full turn's worth of attacks + Legendary Actions to deal 100 HP to the hand, so from an action-denial perspective it's about as good as Otto's. (It would take about 2 rounds to break free from Otto's vs. 1.25-ish rounds vs. Bigby's, but the dragon can opt to spend a Legendary Resistance to break free from Otto's in only 1 round, so it's a wash.) Even in this best-case scenario for Bigby's, Otto's is still superior in that all of those ranged party members will have advantage attacking the dragon due to it being restrained: so the one round of delay that you get buys you more when you get it from Otto's than when you get it from Bigby's. It's worth anywhere from 50% to 100ish% more depending on your party's composition and average attack bonus.

4.) Another thing you can do to strengthen Otto's even further is for somebody to Web the dragon while it is busy dancing. It will almost certainly fail the Dex save due to disadvantage, so now it has to burn two Legendary Resistances to break free in one round, which means you are two steps closer to doing far worse things to it than merely killing it. (E.g. Polymorph it into a rabbit and then Awaken the rabbit. Once the Polymorph lapses, it's now a dragon again but it's still charmed for thirty days! Or Feeblemind. Or Bestow Curse IX on it to perma-stun it. Forever.)

[SharkForce]

what level 11 wizard are you pitting against an ancient dragon, exactly?

if the threat is CR 21 (plus probably a bunch of minions), it isn't reasonable to assume a level 11 character. in the event that you *are* a level 11 character facing a dragon, i actually recommend you don't use bigby's hand *or* otto's irresistible dance. instead, use a spell that will let you run away. you mentioned wall of force... it's great for this sort of thing.

as to movement, that's how far you can move the hand with a bonus action. which is irrelevant. the hand moves itself no matter where the enemy goes as an interposing hand once you've targeted the creature. it specifically tells you that the hand moves itself in between you and the enemy. not you move the hand to interpose. the hand moves itself to interpose. once you've targeted the dragon, the interposing hand stays with it.

as for the disadvantage making otto's better, it's not *that* nice. there's a lot of ways to give advantage. the good ones don't require you to move next to a creature that we're assuming can deal your entire health in damage in a single round.

(as to wall of force, generally speaking most uses of wall of force are great for holding a dragon in place, but not so great for holding it in place while your party kills it. those who have a party full of awakened mystics are, of course, going to be better off using the wall of force, as they can both kill it and hold it helpless in a wall of force at the same time).

and burning through legendary resistance is certainly nice, but not as nice as just not letting the dragon act in a useful way while the party gets potshots. potshots with advantage would be nice, but not nice enough to make me want to walk into breath attack range against a dragon that might decide to ready an action, and definitely gets the chance to use a legendary action on my turn.

[MaxWilson]

what level 11 wizard are you pitting against an ancient dragon, exactly?

if the threat is CR 21 (plus probably a bunch of minions), it isn't reasonable to assume a level 11 character.

I said "adult", not "ancient." Mostly because we're discussing Bigby's Hand here, and the an Ancient Red Dragon can power through it.

My experience is that 4-man level 11 parties are more than ready to tackle vanilla adult dragons. By level 13, you can cast Otto's Irresistable Dance twice (using a Phantom Steed), which trivializes the whole encounter. This, as mentioned, is why I don't use vanilla dragons in my game--they're implausibly easy without spells.

If you wait for the party to reach level 17 before throwing CR 17 threats at them, the dragon becomes nothing more than another Medium encounter. At level 11 or 12 at least it is still officially Deadly, even though it's not really deadly.


(as to wall of force, generally speaking most uses of wall of force are great for holding a dragon in place, but not so great for holding it in place while your party kills it. those who have a party full of awakened mystics are, of course, going to be better off using the wall of force, as they can both kill it and hold it helpless in a wall of force at the same time).

Bigby's Hand doesn't do this. The dragon can still run away. Otto's does do this. Advantage: Otto's.


and burning through legendary resistance is certainly nice, but not as nice as just not letting the dragon act in a useful way while the party gets potshots. potshots with advantage would be nice, but not nice enough to make me want to walk into breath attack range against a dragon that might decide to ready an action, and definitely gets the chance to use a legendary action on my turn.

Otto's and Bigby's Hand both do this. In the stipulated scenario, the whole party is out of range of the dragon's breath weapon. Bigby's prevents the dragon from moving toward the party. Otto's prevents the dragon from moving at all. In both cases, the dragon gets no opportunity to act in a useful way. Advantage: neither.

Riding into breath weapon range isn't a problem when you're going to pin the dragon in place and ride back out of breath weapon range the same round. You're going to wind up 130' away from the dragon at the end of your turn, remember? If he had a readied action to breathe you'd already know it. Besides, this wizard has 100+ HP, remember? A breath weapon won't kill him. If he's a regular little fragile 50-HP wizard Otto's still works, but Bigby's becomes much, much worse.

BTW, apropos underrated spells, Death Ward doesn't seem to get a lot of chatter on the forums, but it's great for an insurance spell against a dragon's breath weapon. No concentration, 8 hours, prevents you from dropping to 0 HP once. In short, Death Ward lets you face down dragons without much fear even once you've dropped from 80 HP to 30 HP or so: whereas normally you'd be uncomfortably conscious of the fact that you're now in range of a one-action kill via Breath Weapon, with Death Ward up you know that you're almost guaranteed to survive long enough to get another action in. It's sort of the player equivalent of a Legendary Resistance. Anyway, it's not obscure but I don't see it mentioned very often on the forums, so it may be a bit underrated.

[DireSickFish]

Calm Emotions is a spell I learned to always have on hand with my cleric. Both of its uses came in incredibly handy. Making a target treat you as neutral made interrogation after a fight a lot easier. It's only for 1min so you can't ask every question ever but it does let you pull key information the stubborn gits would take to there grave just out of spite. It also means you don't have to promise to free a murderer to find out where the even-worse-murderer is.

Suppressing charms and fears helped us against a vampire that had dominated a few party members. Sure it eats up concentration but it's far better to have that then have the rogue shanking the sorcerer every round.

There was a magic mirror that when you touched it it would replace you with an evil copy. The party didn't know this and after 2 members had touched it they turned and started fighting the party. Calm emotions to suppress charms and fears let us figure out they were duplicates instead of being charmed so we could feel free to unload on them.

[MaxWilson]

I believe Major Image may be underrated. It's one of the few spells which is actually stronger in 5E than the equivalent was in AD&D. Full sight, sound, smell, heat/cold, and movement for 10 minutes as only a third level spell, whereas in AD&D I believe that would have been fourth or fifth level. Furthermore, if you cast it with a 6th level slot it lasts until dispelled, no concentration required. You can create permanent illusions of walls, floors over pits, and demonic guardians or golems which quietly loom in the background until you come within 120 of them, at which point you can take (resume) control of it with your action. The only thing it cannot do is actually touch anyone. And it's free to cast, no component cost except an arcane focus!

Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum might be underrated too. Combine the two plus Symbol (which is not underrated, everyone knows it's awesome but expensive) and Planar Binding (ditto) and you have a wizard's tower which is an absolute nightmare for the PCs to invade. Maybe add some cheap Programmed Illusions for extra confusion. "Quick, three Iron Golems are advancing toward you but there's an open corridor to your left with a closed door sixty feet in, to the left. From around the bend at the very end of the corridor you hear the sound of sound of gigantic snoring, somewhat quieter than a jet engine. You can fight or run down the corridor. What do you do?"

[Corey]

you can cast Otto's Irresistable Dance twice (using a Phantom Steed),

Pardon me, but I don't get that. What does Phantom Steed have to do with Otto's or general extra casting?

[AvatarVecna]

My Bard/Warlock used a combination of my own Thaumaturgy spell, my ally's Thaumaturgy spell, Bardic Inspiration, and a super-high Deception check resulted in a group of bugbears (notoriously glass cannon-y at the lower levels) spending their first two combat rounds confused when I pretended to be their mortal-ascended-to-deity. Booming voices and shaking floors added to the deception well.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Pardon me, but I don't get that. What does Phantom Steed have to do with Otto's or general extra casting?

He means Find Steed. Any time you cast a spell with a range of 'self', it is also applied to the steed. A few offensive spells are 'self', such as Cone of Cold, which means by RAW you get two cones per casting. I thought one of the errata outlawed that, but maybe not.

Otto's Irresistible Dance is not one of those spells though.

[Corey]

He means Find Steed. Any time you cast a spell with a range of 'self', it is also applied to the steed. A few offensive spells are 'self', such as Cone of Cold, which means by RAW you get two cones per casting. I thought one of the errata outlawed that, but maybe not.

Otto's Irresistible Dance is not one of those spells though.

So he made a typo, while attempting to assert something that was never true, when the thing it resembled probably isn't true either. Got it. :smallbiggrin:

I don't recall either re the errata.

[DireSickFish]

He means Find Steed. Any time you cast a spell with a range of 'self', it is also applied to the steed. A few offensive spells are 'self', such as Cone of Cold, which means by RAW you get two cones per casting. I thought one of the errata outlawed that, but maybe not.

Otto's Irresistible Dance is not one of those spells though.

That's... not what he means at all. He was saying Phantom Steed is an underrated spell due to the amount of movement it gives you. He was essentially combining two "underrated" spells so that he can Ottoes and then use the steed to get out of breath weapon range of the dragon.

He wasn't talking about the broken unintuitive find steed combo at all.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Wow, completely misread that then. Sorry!

[MaxWilson]

That's... not what he means at all. He was saying Phantom Steed is an underrated spell due to the amount of movement it gives you. He was essentially combining two "underrated" spells so that he can Ottoes and then use the steed to get out of breath weapon range of the dragon.

He wasn't talking about the broken unintuitive find steed combo at all.

Correct. Phantom Steed mitigates the range problem.

[WampDiesel]

He means Find Steed. Any time you cast a spell with a range of 'self', it is also applied to the steed. A few offensive spells are 'self', such as Cone of Cold, which means by RAW you get two cones per casting. I thought one of the errata outlawed that, but maybe not.

Otto's Irresistible Dance is not one of those spells though.

I am AFB right now but I thought the whole reason people tried to make that argument in the first place is that they were confusing spells that actually targeted yourself with spells whose ranges start at yourself (like every cone shaped AOE). You can make your steed "comprehend languages" or "see invisibility" ezpz but that rule just doesn't work for spells like cone of cold.

[NNescio]

Jump is one of the most consistently rated-low spells on most guide, and for good reason -- it absolutely sucks... most of the time.

All it does is triple your jump height/distance, which can be kinda useful as utility, but it only lasts one minute, making it nearly completely useless as a utility spell.

But things change when you have a monk or a high-str barb on your team. A wildshaped druid (to Giant Toad) might also work (its speed kinda suck though). These guys can jump over enemies, grapple someone, and then jump back (to capture somebody) or jump upwards to piledrive someone into the ground. Yay for dealing damage without using an action!

It's still a very niche use though, and the fact that you can't jump higher/further than your speed does limit this tactic severely. Grappling will use up an attack most of the time as well (unless you can grapple as part of an attack, like some wildshape forms). Overall, the opportunity costs make it not really worth a prepared or known spell. So, yeah, the spell still sucks.

...but this totally has to be worth an inspiration point the first time someone pulls this off.

[Logosloki]

Thaumaturgy should of been on the warlock cantrip list. It is criminal that the class based on making pacts with beings that defy the gods don't have access to this.

[Corey]

Why don't more people drool over Guidance? 1d4 to initiative, costlessly, unless you get surprised. 1d4 to most out-of-combat checks as well.

[MaxWilson]

Why don't more people drool over Guidance? 1d4 to initiative, costlessly, unless you get surprised. 1d4 to most out-of-combat checks as well.

It's not costless--it costs concentration. If I suspect a fight is coming, there's relatively little chance I want Guidance as my pre-cast spell. Either I expect the fight to be a cakewalk (e.g. killing oozes from range) or I think it might be a real fight. In the former case, I would get tired of casting Guidance every minute to have negligible impact on a fight that, when it comes, will be cakewalk already, and I'd eventually quit doing it after a few minutes. In the latter case, I'd much rather have a real spell up, like Conjure Animals (e.g. constrictor snakes).

I guess Guidance is good if you're a character who has nothing better to do with their concentration, but I don't like to play those kinds of characters.

[Corey]

It's not costless--it costs concentration. If I suspect a fight is coming, there's relatively little chance I want Guidance as my pre-cast spell. Either I expect the fight to be a cakewalk (e.g. killing oozes from range) or I think it might be a real fight. In the former case, I would get tired of casting Guidance every minute to have negligible impact on a fight that, when it comes, will be cakewalk already, and I'd eventually quit doing it after a few minutes. In the latter case, I'd much rather have a real spell up, like Conjure Animals (e.g. constrictor snakes).

I guess Guidance is good if you're a character who has nothing better to do with their concentration, but I don't like to play those kinds of characters.

I guess it depends on what you plan to do with your concentration slot. A bunch of choices can indeed be pre-casts, e.g. the Conjures, the buffs (Bless, Haste, Fly ...) and some of the terrain controls. Others, however, have to wait until combat starts, e.g. the various charms, fears, illusions or straight debuffs.

[ghost_warlock]

Guidance is ridiculously good - initiative is an ability check. Even if you have bless, haste, or fly, you almost can't go wrong with guidance as your default concentration because you can cast it at-will so it's always available and if you don't use the +d4 during the duration you lose nothing.

That said, my DM let me use one of my invocations for my Old One warlock to get detect thoughts at-will and it's seriously making me consider whether I want it or guidance for my default. Being able to scan for intelligent minds effectively makes us immune to ambushes and lets me get away with all sorts of shenanigans with Awakened Mind and interrogating prisoners.

[Ralanr]

Jump is one of the most consistently rated-low spells on most guide, and for good reason -- it absolutely sucks... most of the time.

All it does is triple your jump height/distance, which can be kinda useful as utility, but it only lasts one minute, making it nearly completely useless as a utility spell.

But things change when you have a monk or a high-str barb on your team. A wildshaped druid (to Giant Toad) might also work (its speed kinda suck though). These guys can jump over enemies, grapple someone, and then jump back (to capture somebody) or jump upwards to piledrive someone into the ground. Yay for dealing damage without using an action!

It's still a very niche use though, and the fact that you can't jump higher/further than your speed does limit this tactic severely. Grappling will use up an attack most of the time as well (unless you can grapple as part of an attack, like some wildshape forms). Overall, the opportunity costs make it not really worth a prepared or known spell. So, yeah, the spell still sucks.

...but this totally has to be worth an inspiration point the first time someone pulls this off.

Jump seems a lot more flexible than levitate in my opinion. Whenever I play a warlock (normally bladelock) I pick that invocation over the ability to hover up and down 20 feet and only up and down unless you can push off or pull something.

[SharkForce]

at-will levitate gets somewhat better when you consider that 2 out of the 3 types of warlocks can get easy access to indefinite-duration flying minions.

though in any event, at-will jump doesn't require concentration, and as a result is much better than regular jump.

[MaxWilson]

Guidance is ridiculously good - initiative is an ability check. Even if you have bless, haste, or fly, you almost can't go wrong with guidance as your default concentration because you can cast it at-will so it's always available and if you don't use the +d4 during the duration you lose nothing.

Casting Guidance every minute of every day, just in case someone attacks me during the next minute, would drive me psychotic. And a smart foe who knows you well would just hide and ready an action to attack you as soon as you re-cast Guidance, thus ensuring that you cannot act at all that round since you blew your action on Guidance.

[Strill]

I've got one that's seriously underrated. This one is listed as low to crap-tier in all the guides, but it's actually amazing. Nystul's Magic Aura. Normally it just deceives divination spells by making things appear to not be enchanted, or to be enchanted in ways they aren't

However, it also allows you to change a creature's effective creature type so that spells and magical effects treat it as though it were a different type. Furthermore if you cast it once per day for 30 days, it lasts indefinitely, so you can make it permanent during downtime.

That means you permanently change your creature type to Dragon or Celestial, and BAM! You're immune to any spell or ability that's restricted to humanoids. No more Dominate person, no more Vampires charming you. It all just fizzles. You're totally immune.

[hymer]

However, it also allows you to change a creature's effective creature type so that spells and magical effects treat it as though it were a different type.

Only to spells and effects that detect creature types, right?

[Strill]

Only to spells and effects that detect creature types, right?

It mentions spells that detect creature types at first, but then goes on to say:

"You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment."

Besides, anything that only works on a creature of a particular type can obviously detect creature types.

[hymer]

Ha! I'd never have read it that way. Fair enough.

[Corey]

I've got one that's seriously underrated. This one is listed as low to crap-tier in all the guides, but it's actually amazing. Nystul's Magic Aura. Normally it just deceives divination spells by making things appear to not be enchanted, or to be enchanted in ways they aren't

However, it also allows you to change a creature's effective creature type so that spells and magical effects treat it as though it were a different type. Furthermore if you cast it once per day for 30 days, it lasts indefinitely, so you can make it permanent during downtime.

That means you permanently change your creature type to Dragon or Celestial, and BAM! You're immune to any spell or ability that's restricted to humanoids. No more Dominate person, no more Vampires charming you. It all just fizzles. You're totally immune.

Nice one. Until, of course, a single Dispel Magic undoes a month of work. :)

[Person_Man]

Boo. I can't imagine a DM arguing that the water doesn't conduct electricity. I can see it not giving the extra effect, but it should spread the damage.

Humorously, 1E/2E had a lot more "reality" built into spells. For example, IIRC Fireball filled a fixed volume with an explosion of fire, lightning bolts moved a fixed length and could be reflected off of solid objects, Haste aged you, etc. At the time, it was generally considered the worst thing about magic, because it punished players for using magic incorrectly (especially newbs), and often led to un-fun results (like accidentally murdering your entire party). Also, 12 year olds don't have a college degree in physics. (And the internet didn't exist). So many players were unprepared to implement what would happen in the real world anyway.


Back on topic, players from previous non-4E editions pretty much ignore spells that grant small numerical bonuses, because they were so weak in those editions, but are extremely strong in 5E. Similarly, players weened on collectible card games tend to avoid highly situational spells, because they'll be used so rarely, not understanding that most mid-high level full casters have access to a pretty large range of spells and only need a handful of universally applicable spam spells, and thus having a diverse set of situational spells can actually makes your character much more powerful and interesting.

[DireSickFish]

I've got one that's seriously underrated. This one is listed as low to crap-tier in all the guides, but it's actually amazing. Nystul's Magic Aura. Normally it just deceives divination spells by making things appear to not be enchanted, or to be enchanted in ways they aren't

However, it also allows you to change a creature's effective creature type so that spells and magical effects treat it as though it were a different type. Furthermore if you cast it once per day for 30 days, it lasts indefinitely, so you can make it permanent during downtime.

That means you permanently change your creature type to Dragon or Celestial, and BAM! You're immune to any spell or ability that's restricted to humanoids. No more Dominate person, no more Vampires charming you. It all just fizzles. You're totally immune.

I.. wow that is actually really clever use of the spell, and it makes sense. Hold person can only hold humanoids and such so to the spell you are actually a dragon and the magic doesn't work right as it's trying to grab all your humand mind bits but your aura keeps telling it that you're a dragon. Good work this spell defiantly belongs here.

[Ralanr]

Isn't that a bit abusable for a second level spell?

Also, depending on your dex score blur can be a better choice than mirror image (though mirror image is awesome).

[Safety Sword]

As with all spells it's not just the way you use them but when you use them.

My typical example is Colour Spray (I'm Australian, that's how we spell Colour :P). One round of blindness doesn't seem like a big deal, right? Surely Sleep is superior?

Well, one round of blindness when the party fighter is within range with Action Surge available makes a big difference.

Always remember that D&D is a team game. The meshing of party abilities is what makes it such fun.

[NNescio]

Isn't that a bit abusable for a second level spell?

Also, depending on your dex score blur can be a better choice than mirror image (though mirror image is awesome).

While Blur is a decent spell, Mirror Image not requiring concentration just blows it out of the window.

(Especially poor Desert Druids, who generally have better things to do with their concentration.)


I've got one that's seriously underrated. This one is listed as low to crap-tier in all the guides, but it's actually amazing. Nystul's Magic Aura. Normally it just deceives divination spells by making things appear to not be enchanted, or to be enchanted in ways they aren't

However, it also allows you to change a creature's effective creature type so that spells and magical effects treat it as though it were a different type. Furthermore if you cast it once per day for 30 days, it lasts indefinitely, so you can make it permanent during downtime.

That means you permanently change your creature type to Dragon or Celestial, and BAM! You're immune to any spell or ability that's restricted to humanoids. No more Dominate person, no more Vampires charming you. It all just fizzles. You're totally immune.

I think you just won this thread.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think you just won this thread. Maybe not. (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/67549/22566)
It's still an interesting interpretation (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/67550/22566)on that spell.

[INDYSTAR188]

Maybe not. (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/67549/22566)
It's still an interesting interpretation (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/67550/22566)on that spell.

At my table I'd rule for it to work with the divination-type spells to prevent abuse. I don't know for certain, but I suspect the RAI was not to allow the all-purpose application of the spell.

[Ralanr]

While Blur is a decent spell, Mirror Image not requiring concentration just blows it out of the window.

(Especially poor Desert Druids, who generally have better things to do with their concentration.)



I think you just won this thread.

If you have terrible dex then not so much.

[MaxWilson]

It mentions spells that detect creature types at first, but then goes on to say:

"You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment."

Besides, anything that only works on a creature of a particular type can obviously detect creature types.

I don't buy the idea that Nystul's Magic Aura will let you Magic Jar the Tarrasque as if it were a humanoid or make you immune to Hold Person spells. As I read the spell, it fakes out detection, not effects.

I'm fine with it letting you fake out the Symbol spell, though, or a Contingency. That's cool and definitely a good and useful find.

[UXLZ]

Hmm, normally I'd be in favor of letting it affect other stuff as well, but it's under the bold subheading of "mask". Funnily though, one could actually make an argument that it affects everything BUT spells that detect creature type or alignment.

[Louro]

Boo. I can't imagine a DM arguing that the water doesn't conduct electricity. I can see it not giving the extra effect, but it should spread the damage.

Actually, water doesn't conduct electricity, it is the salt into the water. Therefore fresh water shouldn't spread the damage, but I guess it will if the floor is dirty.

Also, I had fun as DM with "realistic" interactions with lighting spells. A Full Plate armor is really close to a "faraday cage", which is something that prevents ANY lighting effec to bypass it. I told the full armored warrior that he didnt fell anything from that lighting. The next round the poor cleric got blasted by that electricity stored on the armor.
YEAH!

Now the wizard casts lightings on the warrior so he can discharge it by punching a foe.

[Safety Sword]

Actually, water doesn't conduct electricity, it is the salt into the water. Therefore fresh water shouldn't spread the damage, but I guess it will if the floor is dirty.

Also, I had fun as DM with "realistic" interactions with lighting spells. A Full Plate armor is really close to a "faraday cage", which is something that prevents ANY lighting effec to bypass it. I told the full armored warrior that he didnt fell anything from that lighting. The next round the poor cleric got blasted by that electricity stored on the armor.
YEAH!

Now the wizard casts lightings on the warrior so he can discharge it by punching a foe.

I'm glad that it works for you...

I play with a bunch of guys with Physics Doctorates. We have decided to leave the real world physics out of our games :smallamused:

[UXLZ]

Real world physics and RAW don't really mesh that well. In some places it can be cool, though.

[Maxilian]

I love Magic Stone. While for myself most other cantrips end up better, the ability to hand them off to friends, familiars, peasants... So much surprise and tactical potential

I love that cantrip but i have never though of handing it to someone else, it looks like i'm going to get a "Animate dead" to use with this cantrip (command a skeleton to attack with the pebbles) :P

[MaxWilson]

I noticed recently that Dream is a surprisingly good spell, both for communication and for attacking. It's obviously not usable in combat, but it's a useful DM tool kind of on the same level as Scrying: if a character (e.g. a PC) has done something to offend you (foiled your plans, stole your treasure, etc.) you can ruin his day, every day: prevent him from regaining spells, or HD, or many special abilities, and also do some minor damage. At a metagame level, that almost forces the PC to seek out and destroy you, if he can, or just live with a permanently weakened PC who has nightmares every night and rarely regains spells.

Bonus points for the voodoo aspect (disadvantage on save from hair clippings). That's cool.

The spell also combines well with Geas. Geas does 5d10 damage every day, which normally doesn't matter for powerful creatures, but if the Geased creature is being visited in his dream every night with nightmares, that 5d10 will add up and kill him in fairly short order.