Is an enchanter gish possible?

[Masakan]

Or is it too much of a headache to even try to make?
...I've been wracking my mind around it for weeks it just doesn't wanna come together.

[Nifft]

From which books are you allowed to draw Enchantments?

[Masakan]

From which books are you allowed to draw Enchantments?
If it's on DnD Tools It's Fair game

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I just looked through PH2/UA and didn't see any Enchanter ACFs that would be of any benefit at all to a gish. The PH2 ACF could have been good if it didn't have a target-HD-cap of your Wizard class level, which just makes it worthless since you would never have more than six wizard levels on a gish, and preferably no more than four or even two.

I just looked through PHB/SC/CM/PH2/RotD/DM and didn't see enough enchantment spells that would be of any benefit to a gish to justify specializing in enchantment. There is only one such spell that would be truly fitting for a gish to use, and that is Bladeweave which was severely nerfed from its original printing in CV. The others could be useful as ranged attacks (power word: pain, ray of stupidity) or single-target crowd controls (ray of dizziness, other power word spells), but none of those are any better than anything you get from other schools, except maybe Ray of Stupidity when used against animals.

You can just get an Eternal Wand of Ray of Stupidity and anyone capable of casting arcane spells can use it, even if it's not on your class spell list and even if you have that school prohibited.


What inspired you to consider going this route in the first place?

[Masakan]

I just looked through PH2/UA and didn't see any Enchanter ACFs that would be of any benefit at all to a gish. The PH2 ACF could have been good if it didn't have a target-HD-cap of your Wizard class level, which just makes it worthless since you would never have more than six wizard levels on a gish, and preferably no more than four or even two.

I just looked through PHB/SC/CM/PH2/RotD/DM and didn't see enough enchantment spells that would be of any benefit to a gish to justify specializing in enchantment. There is only one such spell that would be truly fitting for a gish to use, and that is Bladeweave which was severely nerfed from its original printing in CV. The others could be useful as ranged attacks (power word: pain, ray of stupidity) or single-target crowd controls (ray of dizziness, other power word spells), but none of those are any better than anything you get from other schools, except maybe Ray of Stupidity when used against animals.

You can just get an Eternal Wand of Ray of Stupidity and anyone capable of casting arcane spells can use it, even if it's not on your class spell list and even if you have that school prohibited.


What inspired you to consider going this route in the first place?

Creative practices. I wanted to see what I could do without resorting to stock abjurant champion

My persona character already has that class set up for him. Warblade/sorcerer going into abjurant champion and Jade phoenix mage, Specializing In Lightning and Defencive magics and Versed in the Diamond Mind Discipline as well as Alchemy.
The original Idea was to have him fight like Weiss Schnee from Rwby, But he came out more like Aqua or Master Xehanort from Kingdom Hearts.

My other character is Unarmed Divine Gish Cloistered Cleric/Monk2/Swordsage and going into Divine Fist, focusing more on Self Buffing and Ice Magic and Specializing in Setting Sun

Both of them Came out Far better than I could have hoped

Now I'm trying to Make a Bard Enchantress Sworddancer with a proficiency in Tiger Claw. It's important to be bard because I need Snowflake Wardance and Slippers of Battle Dancing to make this work. But no matter what I do it just won't piece together....at least thats what I Thought at first.

Then I thought Could I just Start off as a Bard then go into Sorcerer and Warblade after that and then go into either Swiftblade or Heartwarder to mix it all together because I need the Skill points(You see it's important for me to get Elusive target as the ability to just shut off Melees most powerful asset is amazing) And before you ask I have considered Sublime Chord, but unless I find a way to get a crap ton of skill points the tax will be just too high.

[Optimator]

There are a couple of enchantment spells that help with gishing, like Greater Heroism. Most self-buffs aren't of that school though. As long as you don't ban abjuration and transmutation (and perhaps conjuration) you can always make a gish that happens to prepare all the non-buff spells as enchantment spells. The rub though is all your gish feats won't go toward DC buffing and you won't have as many save-lowering spells and dispels prepped. It could work though and you'll still have a powerful caster character.

Edit: Going Bard? There are a few more Enchantment spells for self-buffing, I'm sure. Snowsong comes to mind. Sirine's Grace is cool but it isn't enchantment, I believe. Warcry perhaps? Empyreal Ecstasy is a great gish buff and it helps your allies as well. Metamagic Song is great for using Extend Spell on all your buffs.

Nothing like a dominated monster to serve as a flanking buddy!

[Masakan]

There are a couple of enchantment spells that help with gishing, like Greater Heroism. Most self-buffs aren't of that school though. As long as you don't ban abjuration and transmutation (and perhaps conjuration) you can always make a gish that happens to prepare all the non-buff spells as enchantment spells. The rub though is all your gish feats won't go toward DC buffing and you won't have as many save-lowering spells and dispels prepped. It could work though and you'll still have a powerful caster character.

Um that's kind of the thing....I Don't Like Wizards. As much as people say they are the best class in the game I don't like how well anti social they tend to be, plus prepared casters don't click with me as much sans cleric

Edit: Yeah but it's been a headache because, the formula feels like its missing something.

[DarkSonic1337]

Um that's kind of the thing....I Don't Like Wizards. As much as people say they are the best class in the game I don't like how well anti social they tend to be, plus prepared casters don't click with me as much sans cleric

Edit: Yeah but it's been a headache because, the formula feels like its missing something.

Fluff is mutable. Your wizard doesn't have to be some recluse that lives in a tower or academy, he could be a traveling scholar who immerses himself in different cultures to learn from them, adding their knowledge of magic to his own or drawing inspiration for new spells.

But if you don't like the prepared casting mechanic I suppose that's not gonna work.

What level are you starting at? If you're starting fairly high level you should consider using sublime chord as your casting base. With the combined bard and sorcerer lists I feel like you'll have enough fun enchantment spells to work with, and you'll also have more room for non casting classes.

[Masakan]

Fluff is mutable. Your wizard doesn't have to be some recluse that lives in a tower or academy, he could be a traveling scholar who immerses himself in different cultures to learn from them, adding their knowledge of magic to his own or drawing inspiration for new spells.

But if you don't like the prepared casting mechanic I suppose that's not gonna work.

What level are you starting at? If you're starting fairly high level you should consider using sublime chord as your casting base. With the combined bard and sorcerer lists I feel like you'll have enough fun enchantment spells to work with, and you'll also have more room for non casting classes.

Sublime won't work...As I said before My character is an enchanter but she's also the party face, That means that I would need things like Bluff, Diplomacy and Disguise and gather info as high as I can as well as some levels in tumble, jump and balance for the synergy bonus for all 3, there is also concentration for spells and obviously perform.

To put it bluntly I want my character to be a bit of a flirt. Showy as hell and plays the sex game up like no tomorrow, also kind of a ditz and while i could fluff it, I kinda want her stats and class to reflect that.
Mind you she's Chaotic Good, so she's not malicious in anyway, she just wants a good time and wants everyone else to have a good time too.

[ericgrau]

Hmm, how about you collect a bunch of minions and then fight alongside those minions against foes who are immune to mind affecting? The gishness could be a way to cover your weakness without resorting to non-enchantment spells as much.

Fluff: Flirt with your minions.

Enchantment can really take off once you get mind fog. Drop it on a group of multiple foes and since I believe by RAW you know which ones failed their saves, next you can target with charm monster and the +5 to their saves won't be so bad. Get some knowledge skills or at least complement your party's knowledge skills to help you determine which foes target will saves. If you think it's unlikely that foes target will, you can include allies in your mind fog without worrying so much. Plus if your foes have foggy brains that's a good time to bring up the flirty role-play banter like you would with a drunk.

[DarkSonic1337]

So I'm not seeing how any of that contradicts with Sublime Chord? Is it that the fluff of the class doesn't match your character vision? Take the able learner feat and you won't have to pay double for cross class skills, and as long as they were class skills for ONE of your classes then the cap will be character level+3. You'll probably have to take levels in bard anyway to qualify for sublime chord so your class skills will easily fix themselves. Regardless of what you end up going for in the end, do consider the able learner feat if skill ranks are gonna be so important to you.

I suppose what's tripping me up might be that I don't pay much attention to a class's fluff, because I think of classes as metagame constructs. I would not call myself a Sublime Chord, I'd call myself a singer and dancer who believes that music and magic are really not so different, they're both ways of expressing yourself. It's a popular view on these forums, so I sometimes forget that many look at both a class's mechanical benefits AND the described fluff when creating their characters.

[Masakan]

So I'm not seeing how any of that contradicts with Sublime Chord? Is it that the fluff of the class doesn't match your character vision? Take the able learner feat and you won't have to pay double for cross class skills, and as long as they were class skills for ONE of your classes then the cap will be character level+3. You'll probably have to take levels in bard anyway to qualify for sublime chord so your class skills will easily fix themselves. Regardless of what you end up going for in the end, do consider the able learner feat if skill ranks are gonna be so important to you.

I suppose what's tripping me up might be that I don't pay much attention to a class's fluff, because I think of classes as metagame constructs. I would not call myself a Sublime Chord, I'd call myself a singer and dancer who believes that music and magic are really not so different, they're both ways of expressing yourself. It's a popular view on these forums, so I sometimes forget that many look at both a class's mechanical benefits AND the described fluff when creating their characters.

Getting the skills wouldn't even be an issue, It's more the fact that I'm dumping so many Skill points that I could be using for other skills I could use all for what would amount for like a level 1-2 dip. I mean I could do it...I would need to get nymphs kiss at level 1 but I could do it. Still the question is what would come after that. Because I am determined to go either Swiftblade or heartwarder. Unless you can convince me otherwise.

[Troacctid]

The problem with an Enchanter gish is that enchantment spells tend to replace attacks, not augment them. If you hit someone with Baleful Polymorph, you've kind of made your weapon attacks redundant.

I suppose a thing you could do is use enchantments as a sort of rider effect to tack onto your normal strikes. Say you went Cleric of Hextor (War and Domination domains) into Ordained Champion. Channel your Command and Suggestion spells into your flail and use it to make trip attacks. As you force them to kneel at your feet, you also force them to obey your commands. You are the might of Hextor, and the weak will grovel before you, whether they choose to or not.


Enchantment can really take off once you get mind fog. Drop it on a group of multiple foes and since I believe by RAW you know which ones failed their saves, next you can target with charm monster and the +5 to their saves won't be so bad.
Nope, you only know if they fail their save on a single-target spell, not an area spell.

[Masakan]

The problem with an Enchanter gish is that enchantment spells tend to replace attacks, not augment them. If you hit someone with Baleful Polymorph, you've kind of made your weapon attacks redundant.

I suppose a thing you could do is use enchantments as a sort of rider effect to tack onto your normal strikes. Say you went Cleric of Hextor (War and Domination domains) into Ordained Champion. Channel your Command and Suggestion spells into your flail and use it to make trip attacks. As you force them to kneel at your feet, you also force them to obey your commands. You are the might of Hextor, and the weak will grovel before you, whether they choose to or not.


Nope, you only know if they fail their save on a single-target spell, not an area spell.

Honestly My response would simply be "So now they all been put in the mind fog.....Let's cast loves lament and see what happens!

Truth be told, I say gish but in reality she's an enchantress with enough melee prowess so if she's caught alone she isn't a sitting duck, yeah the idea with her is to keep moving and fireing off debuff spells so that everyone else has an easier time while getting in a few swipes of your own. Which is why most people would say otherwise spring attack is important for makign this build work and precicely why im so determined to get into either swiftblade or heartwarder.

Swiftblade for Effectiveness
Heartwarder for the flavor.

[ericgrau]

Nope, you only know if they fail their save on a single-target spell, not an area spell.
[Looks it up] Dang that puts a damper on that strategy. At least they are more likely to fail their save so you can guess that most foes have failed.

Another area mind affecting spell like love's lament is a smart follow-up too.

Spring attack makes sense if you have a weak defense but still want to be able to partially contribute to martial combat. Though I wonder if a bow wouldn't be better. Maybe spring attack + tripping or damage would make it more worth it.

[Masakan]

Looks it up. Dang that puts a damper on that strategy. At least they are more likely to fail their save so you can guess that most foes have failed.

Another area mind affecting spell like love's lament is a smart follow-up too.

Spring attack makes sense if you have a weak defense but still want to be able to partially contribute to martial combat. Though I wonder if a bow wouldn't be better. Maybe spring attack + tripping or damage would make it more worth it.

Slippers of battle dancing are like a big cornerstone of my build I have to get those

[DarkSonic1337]

Check out the gauntlet of heartfelt blows too. It's another CHA to damage item (fire damage though)

[ericgrau]

Slippers of battle dancing are like a big cornerstone of my build I have to get those
I wonder if that works with a crossbow.

[Masakan]

Check out the gauntlet of heartfelt blows too. It's another CHA to damage item (fire damage though) Oh I like these! adds to the flavor of my characters theme, Thank you! I was worried about starving myself until i got the slippers but these will do nicely until i get em.



I wonder if that works with a crossbow.

Light and one handed weapons only and you have to more 10 feet so no.

[ericgrau]

Light and one handed weapons only and you have to more 10 feet so no.
Ranged weapons too. Wouldn't a crossbow be a one handed ranged weapon? I was wondering more whether or not it adds cha to damage on a crossbow since crossbows don't get str to damage.

Oh yeah a sling could work.

[Masakan]

Ranged weapons too. Wouldn't a crossbow be a one handed ranged weapon? I was wondering more whether or not it adds cha to damage on a crossbow since crossbows don't get str to damage.

Oh yeah a sling could work.

Problem thats only a one shot, and in the case of archery you would want more of a volley neither of which can do it.

[nedz]

One option to consider is a Half-Fey martial build. Half-Fey gives you a bucket full of enchantment type SLAs and also Flight. Dex +2, Wis +2, Cha +4 and Con -2 which give a number of options.

You might be looking for something more casterly though ?

[Masakan]

One option to consider is a Half-Fey martial build. Half-Fey gives you a bucket full of enchantment type SLAs and also Flight. Dex +2, Wis +2, Cha +4 and Con -2 which give a number of options.

You might be looking for something more casterly though ?

I have considered That as well as feytouched, the problem is would DM's be ok with it, and the hit to con is a lot for a melee character

[ericgrau]

I have considered That as well as feytouched, the problem is would DM's be ok with it, and the hit to con is a lot for a melee character
Assuming you used the template to take 0 levels in any caster class, the higher HD and ability to wear full plate while casting would make up for the lost con. Plus good maneuverability flight. Plus you can get quicken SLA to further boost your SLAs later. Also remember that All SLAs are effectively silent and stilled. Spamming at will silent still charm person is amazeballs. Even if someone passes a save and realizes something bad is in their head they can't tell for sure where it is coming from. Though sure it's probably the hot girl with butterfly wings.

The lack of charm monster and a variety of enchantment spells is a big bummer though. But you do get [quickened] glitterdust and confusion. This is more if you want to be mainly a cha based fighter with some enchantment on the side..

[Masakan]

Assuming you used the template to take 0 levels in any caster class, the higher HD and ability to wear full plate while casting would make up for the lost con. Plus good maneuverability flight. Plus you can get quicken SLA to further boost your SLAs later. Also remember that All SLAs are effectively silent and stilled. Spamming at will silent still charm person is amazeballs. Even if someone passes a save and realizes something bad is in their head they can't tell for sure where it is coming from. Though sure it's probably the hot girl with butterfly wings.

The lack of charm monster and a variety of enchantment spells is a big bummer though. But you do get [quickened] glitterdust and confusion. This is more if you want to be mainly a cha based fighter with some enchantment on the side..

Oh that won't be too bad, Since im going mostly bard I would have D6 no matter what.

And Spells Like Loves lament and Sirines Grace is much too valuable to me.

[daremetoidareyo]

Maybe take a look at celebrant of sharess?

[Masakan]

Maybe take a look at celebrant of sharess?

Spell List isn't Varied Enough, and requires 2 Very restrictive feats. Though It would be great for a charismatic Rouge or something.

[nedz]

Assuming you used the template to take 0 levels in any caster class, the higher HD and ability to wear full plate while casting would make up for the lost con.
Personally I'd pair it with a half caster, maybe a Ranger-Horizon Walker, with a Mindbender dip.
This would give you an awesome stealth/perception based infiltrator character.
I'd also try to grab some Fey Heritage feats, well the 9th level one anyway.
It would work better as an Archer though, maybe using Mystic Ranger.
The -2 Con can be mitigated by bumping the importance of Con over one other stat.

Oh that won't be too bad, Since im going mostly bard I would have D6 no matter what.

And Spells Like Loves lament and Sirines Grace is much too valuable to me.
OK, then this is not the build for you. Just go with a Bardadin or Bardsader.

[True believer]

Enchantment will be useful to a gish only as a "way" to control others in order to make his personal army. If you spiced up with the Leadership feat ... well you all know what i m gonna say :smallyuk:

I would probably go for Fighter2/beguiler6/mindbender5/Eldritch Knight7

you will have +14 attack ( i know that it is not the optimum but i think that it is passable) and 7lvl spells.

[nedz]

Enchantment will be useful to a gish only as a "way" to control others in order to make his personal army. If you spiced up with the Leadership feat ... well you all know what i m gonna say :smallyuk:

I would probably go for Fighter2/beguiler6/mindbender5/Eldritch Knight7

you will have +14 attack ( i know that it is not the optimum but i think that it is passable) and 7lvl spells.

Why so much Mindbender ?
Fighter 2/Beguiler 6/Prestige Bard 2/Eldritch Knight 10
Gives you BAB 16 and Beguiler 16 casting, also Bardic Music though you'd probably want to burn a feat on Extra Music.
Fighter 1/Beguiler 6/Spellblade 1/Prestige Bard 2/Eldritch Knight 10
is probably better

[True believer]

Why so much Mindbender ?
Fighter 2/Beguiler 6/Prestige Bard 2/Eldritch Knight 10
Gives you BAB 16 and Beguiler 16 casting, also Bardic Music though you'd probably want to burn a feat on Extra Music.
Fighter 1/Beguiler 6/Spellblade 1/Prestige Bard 2/Eldritch Knight 10
is probably better


I put so many levels in mindbender for fluff reasons. Plus his abilities are very well suited for an enchanter. finally the double progression in two important saves is very welcome in a gish

Your build is surely more optimized and better the only reason i wouldn't played it is that i don't like bards

[Masakan]

I put so many levels in mindbender for fluff reasons. Plus his abilities are very well suited for an enchanter. finally the double progression in two important saves is very welcome in a gish

Your build is surely more optimized and better the only reason i wouldn't played it is that i don't like bards

And this is where the problem lies I want my character to be a flirt, not a manipulative bitch.
Plus I usually only play good characters so that auto fails it.

[nedz]

Well a good Gish build should have BAB 16 and 9ths, which even my second build falls slightly short on.

I thought that the problem with Beguiler is that you cannot use Abjurant Champion because you don't have many Abjurations, but it seems that this is not the case

So:
Fighter 1/Beguiler 6/Spellblade 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7
gets you BAB 17 and 9ths
but the OP wanted Bards, so you could go with
Fighter 1/Bard 4/Spellblade 1/Abjurant Champion 4/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8
for BAB 16 and 9ths

[Masakan]

Well a good Gish build should have BAB 16 and 9ths, which even my second build falls slightly short on.

I thought that the problem with Beguiler is that you cannot use Abjurant Champion because you don't have many Abjurations, but it seems that this is not the case

So:
Fighter 1/Beguiler 6/Spellblade 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7
gets you BAB 17 and 9ths
but the OP wanted Bards, so you could go with
Fighter 1/Bard 4/Spellblade 1/Abjurant Champion 4/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight 8
for BAB 16 and 9ths

You Know I've tried that, but even with my builds the highest spell level I got to is 7th. And I honestly don't see how it's possible to get 9th level spells without almost completely abandoning the melee aspect of it.

Maybe it's because I believe as a Gish you shouldn't be so completely reliant on one or the other.
And to me there's a Difference between a Gish and A Wizard who knows how to swing a sword.
Then again when you put the Tome of Battle into the Equation, the rules change drastically.

[elonin]

Have you considered beguiler for the enchanter part of the gish?

[Masakan]

Have you considered beguiler for the enchanter part of the gish?

I did and the only reason I didn't consider it, is because it gets Literally NO support from any of the splat books. It's like they made the class and forgot about it.

[elonin]

Depending on your dm you could add any new splat features that came out after that complete.

[Optimator]

I did and the only reason I didn't consider it, is because it gets Literally NO support from any of the splat books. It's like they made the class and forgot about it.

Pretty common--the designers can't count on everyone having every splat book.

Have you considered talking to your DM about making your own custom PrC? Slowly unlocking things like quick feinting, Charisma to hit, Charisma to damage, Charisma to Reflex saves, Charisma to Initiative, Charisma to AC, perhaps some burn-a-spell-get-an-effect abilities (like mimicking Bladeweave or Mirror Image/Blur), learning spells from other (read: Bard) spell lists, perhaps 8/10 casting medium BAB (or better if you can get away with it!). The archetype isn't well-supported but it certainly has a niche and can be extremely fun without being overpowered in the least. Any caster focusing on melee is already depowering them. An ability to mind-read the opponent and get bonuses would be cool (like the Mindspy from CW). Actually, mind-reading is divination, huh. Whatever. You get the idea.

[nedz]

I did and the only reason I didn't consider it, is because it gets Literally NO support from any of the splat books. It's like they made the class and forgot about it.

There are plenty of PrCs and Feats which work well with a Beguiler.
E.g. Arcane Disciple works better for them than for most other classes.
Spell Compendium opens up many more options for Advanced Learning.
Now it's true that Beguiler has no ACFs but there are plenty of options.

[Optimator]

I was just thinking; you know how the Swiftblade is a class based entirely around the Haste spell? An analogue that is based around Heroism and Greater Heroism would be pretty sick!