Utility Build

[Hexblade]

Fellow Playgrounders, I require your assistance in creating a utility caster. I have included a list of needs.

Restrictions:


Core Only
No Magic Items
Level 10


Details on Campaign


Role-Play Focused
Almost No Battles
Political


MTFBWYA

[Twurps]

Politics over fighting: Go full diplomacy/mind control.

Bard would fit nicely fluffwise. Being Cha focussed and having decent skill points will help you in your numerous social situations.
Take 'still spell' and 'silent spell' so you can cast spells unnoticed. load up on: charm person(mass), dominate person, suggestion(mass), etc. (I assume the diplomacy skill will be nerfed somewhat through houserules, as it should)

You'll be targeting a lot of will saves, so maybe a 1 level dip in evangelist to impose a -4 on those? It's in a complete somewhere.

Mindbender would be an nice addition Fluff-wise, though only half progression so not optimal power wise.

[Extra Anchovies]

Core only, no magic items. Your DM hates noncasters, don't they?

Play a druid. Natural Spell at 6th, and then... Improved Initiative, maybe? Druids can get by just fine with one feat in a core-only game.

[Hexblade]

Sorry, forgot to mention, no multi-classing. By the way, I didn't want to go full optimization mode. Remember, this is for a real game. I don't want to break it, I want to have fun. I just want my character to be able to be handy and useful in many non-combat situations. For example, we are trapped in a cell while our party rogue has been taken away. I want a spell that can do something about it. Maybe we have to come up with a fake persona quick. I want to be able to be helpful by using a spell like alter self, etc., etc.

[erok0809]

That sounds like you want to play a wizard. Use the 10 levels worth of gold that you should have that you don't get to spend on magic items to have a large number of spells written in your spellbooks. You've had 10 levels worth of adventuring time, you should have enough backstory time to justify it. If not, get as many as you can.

In addition to that, I would specialize, probably in enchantment since those are the spells that'll be most useful in social situations. That earns you some more spell slots. I would ban necromancy and evocation, since those schools tend to be pretty combat focused and so are probably not too useful to you. Losing them shouldn't lower your versatility much. You should also use divination spells in your "downtime" to figure out what problems you might have soon, so you can prepare the right spells the next day. Also, use the summon monster and planar binding lines to get minions to do stuff you can't do right that second.

[Vhaidara]

That sounds like you want to play a wizard. Use the 10 levels worth of gold that you should have that you don't get to spend on magic items to have a large number of spells written in your spellbooks.

That requires Scrolls. Which are magic items.

[erok0809]

That requires Scrolls. Which are magic items.

Maybe other wizards with larger spellbooks exist and these wizards are really nice? Honestly, I forgot about that you have to copy them from scrolls and not just research them separately. Whoops. Well, the points about what kinds of spells to use still fit even if you don't get as many spells to use, but it certainly does make wizard less appealing.

[eggynack]

There's not much in the way of options that don't work. Druids, wizards, clerics, bards, and maybe even sorcerers, would all fit the bill of a utility caster that doesn't especially require items or multiclassing/prestige classing. It really comes down to preference, and beyond that, it really comes down to spell selection. So, just pick whichever one seems most appealing, and folks'll probably hand over some spell lists.

[Demidos]

Sorcerer gives you the interesting utility spells (grease, alter self, glibness, disintegrate, etc), and is charisma based to boot.

Bard is charisma based, has more enchantment/illusion, has glibness, but has less utility.

An interesting alternative might be Paladin of freedom with the Sword of the Arcane Order Feat, giving you limited arcane casting flexibility on a paladin base. Weaker than the others, but an interesting choice. Unsure if its all core or not.


Edit: Eggynack is right though, your spell selection will determine how good you are at the role. I would suggest against Cleric, because they are heavier buffers and healers and less utility-ish

[Hexblade]

Actually, you are right. Sorcerer seems like the best option for now. Assuming 18-19 Charisma, can anyone help me come up with a good selection of spells, feats, and skills? Oh yeah, sorry for not clarifying, we can craft magic items in-game, we just can't start with them.

[Nifft]

Oh yeah, sorry for not clarifying, we can craft magic items in-game, we just can't start with them.

Suddenly Wizard is back to being the best. Get crafting.

Unless... does "core only" mean stuff in the SRD? Or only in the PHB/DMG/MM1? Because a Cloistered Cleric with the Trickery domain would be pretty great at magic, and crafting, and social stuff, and you might have some kind of social standing due to your place in the clerical hierarchy.

[Hexblade]

Buuuuuut I still can't craft weapons/armor/wondrous items/anything useful. My DM is kind of a **** and only lets us craft things like scrolls. Anyway, even if he did let me craft things, I still wouldn't take wizard because: 1) It is basically the Cheesiest of classes and I want mine to be role-play based, not super overpowered and 2) Wizards suck at social situations. Charisma is usually a dump stat for wizards, and in DnD, wizards are not usually described as "good negotiators" or "outgoing". They are described as "cold", "detached". Not good for social situations.

[Nifft]

Buuuuuut I still can't craft weapons/armor/wondrous items/anything useful. My DM is kind of a **** and only lets us craft things like scrolls. Anyway, even if he did let me craft things, I still wouldn't take wizard because: 1) It is basically the Cheesiest of classes and I want mine to be role-play based, not super overpowered and 2) Wizards suck at social situations. Charisma is usually a dump stat for wizards, and in DnD, wizards are not usually described as "good negotiators" or "outgoing". They are described as "cold", "detached". Not good for social situations.

Your class is not your personality.

Wizards have a LOT of skill points, and Knowledge (nobility) gets you a competence bonus to Diplomacy because knowing stuff helps you be better at talking to people.

Be a high Int / Cha Wizard. Cast heroism for +2 to all skill checks (including Diplomacy etc.), detect thoughts to augment your Sense Motive, and suggestion in place of Bluff. Be sure you're using comprehend languages so people can't tell secrets in front of you. Have your Familiar use the Aid Another action to give you another +2 on your skill checks (and maybe it's a Snake for another +3 Bluff).

Use alter self if you need Str / Dex / Con.

In terms of mechanical justification for your roleplaying decision (ugh), be a Faustian Wizard who casts lesser planar binding and needs the Charisma to make the spell effective.


Can you use core Prestige Classes?

[Hexblade]

No, but you are missing the point. I don't want to be a munchkin/power gamer. I want to play someone useful, but not cheesy. Sorcerers are interesting to me, and I have never played one, so I am trying one out. Plus, versatile casting seems very useful for the kind of campaign my DM throws: a lot of twists and turns, impossible to predict.

[Hiro Quester]

Have you considered a Beguiler?

By 10th level you have silent spell and still spell as bonus feats, 6+int skill point/level from a great list of class skills, possibly the best casting mechanics in the came from a list that includes lots of the best illusion and enchantment spells. For social utility it's pretty good.

[Nifft]

No, but you are missing the point. I don't want to be a munchkin/power gamer. I want to play someone useful, but not cheesy. Sorcerers are interesting to me, and I have never played one, so I am trying one out. Plus, versatile casting seems very useful for the kind of campaign my DM throws: a lot of twists and turns, impossible to predict.

1 - I can't miss what you never said.

2 - A Wizard who scribes scrolls of utility spells is much more versatile than a Sorcerer.

3 - Sorcerers can break the game just as hard as Wizards, it's just that they can't break it in multiple ways with just a night's sleep in between.

4 - If you want to play a Sorcerer, that's fine. That can be done. But you do need to tell us that you want to play a Sorcerer, rather than saying Wizards can't be social, because Wizards totally can be social, and damn good in that role. It's a classic part of the Enchanter archetype, after all.

- - -

So, your mind is apparently set on Sorcerer.

Post your stats, feats, and spell list, and we can critique it.

Not much else we can do for you, is there?

[Hexblade]

I wasn't sure about too much for spells/feats, or else I wouldn't have needed your help. I think that Sorcerer fits my playstyle, so I want to play it. I have a rough idea of what kind of feats I want, but I don't have a concrete plan yet.

Low-Level Metamagic Feats (i.e. Still Spell/Silent Spell for tricky situations)
1 or 2 Skill Feats
Possibly 1 or 2 Other Feats


Really anything that can be useful in many scenarios. I want to be able to look at my spell sheet, think up a scenario and find spells to help me escape it.

I am not sure about which race to pick. I am leaning towards elf/half-elf, but anything besides half-orc/dwarf will do. I also want a little bit of help for a familiar.

[ericgrau]

Ideally I would also say scrolls for utility. But yeah, no wizard, that's fine. A cleric with scribe scroll might be an option. There is less utility on the cleric list, but there are some great ones like augury. Anyway I'm going to assume sorcerer for now:

Spells (better spells IMO listed first)
5 (1): Persistant Image, Magic Jar, Teleport or Telepathic Bond.
4 (2): Polymorph hands down (don't forget there are utility forms too, plus disguises with a +10 bonus), charm monster also hands down. Lots of great spells on this level but you can't pass up these two so I won't even list the others.
3 (3): Clauraudience/clairvoyance, major image, plus either locate object, tongues, haste, dispel magic or suggestion. Lots of classes get dispel magic so you might be able to make someone else get it. Haste is for chasing. Expeditious retreat you say? You forgot rule #1 of D&D, don't split the party. Solo chase never works out well.
2 (4): Levitate, detect thoughts, invisibility, either spider climb, knock, alter self, see invisibility or arcane lock. Believe me on levitate, even ahead of the others, due to range and ability to work on both creatures and objects. It screams political/intrigue Macguffin saver. Alter self is alright even with polymorph thanks to its longer duration. It's good for disguises, dealing with water and climbing. But if you're hard up for 2nd level spells I'd just take disguise self instead.
1 (5): Charm person (even with charm monster, it's just that important and you get many more uses per day), alarm, silent image (if for some reason you refuse to take major image), 3 of: disguise self (if you don't take alter self, plus it lets you craft hats of disguise for your team), unseen servant, floating disk, hold portal (even if you got arcane lock it has better range) or feather fall. Don't under-estimate the hour/level spells and feather fall; at level 10 you have too many spells already and this helps you burn more outside of your regular actions. That and politics is why alarm is so high up the list.
0 (9): Message is worth mentioning for Medium range whispered communication with a 10 min/level duration, so you can often cast it ahead of time. Other than that you get 9 cantrips so you're unlikely to forget a good one without my help.

Skills
Put cross class ranks in disguise. Plus disguise is cha based and you get a magical +10, so even without it as a class skill you'll easily outdo a rogue.

Likewise you probably want bluff maxed. If you can manage it get a decent int and take more, but try not to overlap with the party too much. Spellcraft is 3rd priority at best, especially if others have it.

Feats:
Heighten spell is good for charm person, silent image, major image, detect thoughts and suggestion. Though note that you can burn higher level spell slots even if you don't heighten the spell, you just don't raise the save DC.

Likewise greater spell focus (enchantment) and/or illusion might be nice. Heck maybe necromancy instead if you picked up magic jar. Nothing like a disguise via body swapping, besides thwarting the actions of whoever you possessed.

Extend spell on the hour/level and 10 min/levels might be handy, as might crafting, but these are less likely to be useful.

[Hexblade]

Ideally I would also say scrolls for utility. But yeah, no wizard, that's fine. A cleric with scribe scroll might be an option. There is less utility on the cleric list, but there are some great ones like augury. Anyway I'm going to assume sorcerer for now:

Spells (better spells IMO listed first)
5 (1): Persistant Image, Magic Jar, Teleport or Telepathic Bond.
4 (2): Polymorph hands down (don't forget there are utility forms too, plus disguises with a +10 bonus), charm monster also hands down. Lots of great spells on this level but you can't pass up these two so I won't even list the others.
3 (3): Clauraudience/clairvoyance, major image, plus either locate object, tongues, haste, dispel magic or suggestion. Lots of classes get dispel magic so you might be able to make someone else get it. Haste is for chasing. Expeditious retreat you say? You forgot rule #1 of D&D, don't split the party. Solo chase never works out well.
2 (4): Levitate, detect thoughts, invisibility, either knock, alter self, see invisibility or arcane lock. Believe me on levitate, even ahead of the others, due to range and ability to work on both creatures and objects. It screams political/intrigue Macguffin saver. Alter self is alright even with polymorph thanks to its longer duration. It's good for disguises and for dealing with water. But if you're hard up for 2nd level spells I'd just take disguise self instead.
1 (5): Charm person (even with charm monster, it's just that important and you get many more uses per day), alarm, silent image (if for some reason you refuse to take major image), 3 of: disguise self (if you don't take alter self, plus it lets you craft hats of disguise for your team), unseen servant, floating disk, hold portal (even if you got arcane lock it has better range) or feather fall. Don't under-estimate the hour/level spells and feather fall; at level 10 you have too many spells already and this helps you burn more outside of your regular actions. That and politics is why alarm is so high up the list.
0 (9): Message is worth mentioning for Medium range whispered communication with a 10 min/level duration, so you can often cast it ahead of time. Other than that you get 9 cantrips so you're unlikely to forget a good one without my help.

Skills
Put cross class ranks in disguise. Plus disguise is cha based and you get a magical +10, so even without it as a class skill you'll easily outdo a rogue.

Likewise you probably want bluff maxed. If you can manage it get a decent int and take more, but try not to overlap with the party too much. Spellcraft is 3rd priority at best, especially if others have it.

Feats:
Heighten spell is good for charm person, silent image, major image, detect thoughts and suggestion. Though note that you can burn higher level spell slots even if you don't heighten the spell, you just don't raise the save DC.

Likewise greater spell focus (enchantment) and/or illusion might be nice. Heck maybe necromancy instead if you picked up magic jar. Nothing like a disguise via body swapping, besides thwarting the actions of whoever you possessed.

Extend spell or crafting might be handy, but that's less likely.

Thanks! This is exactly what I wanted. I have 1 feat left, which I may spend on still spell. If I choose human, silent spell is a must. Using charm person w/o saying anything or moving would beperfect for a spy op.

[ericgrau]

@^ Glad I could help. I can't believe I forgot silent spell and still spell in a political build. They are good for both charms and illusions. You may want both. Or use invisibility + silent spell in a pinch but that's harder to set up and charms (but not illusions) blow your invisibility.

Also I made a mistake, locate object is 2nd level. So that makes it more worthwhile. 2nd level should read:
2: Levitate, invisibility, and 2 of: locate object, detect thoughts, knock, alter self, see invisibility or arcane lock.

Locate object's ability to find even a general type of object makes it even better than the 4th level spell locate creature IMO. Also note that detect spells such as detect magic and detect thoughts work through doors and thin walls.

[Hexblade]

Yeah. I dig the "secret caster" build. For example: Locked in prison with a magical version of a security camera? Silent/Still Shatter, and nobody will ever know why it happened. The camera will just pick up the door breaking, and us walking out, which will hold up in the "court of law". The door breaks open, we walk out. They can't say we did anything wrong, we just did the logical thing.

[ericgrau]

Yeah... but be careful about taking utility spells that you only use once the entire campaign. Depending on the plot you might use shatter 5 times or that may be the only time ever. Also shatter has a 100 lb. limit at your caster level. Even a heavy solid 2" oak door weighs 250 lbs., and iron more than that. So actually it may never get used. Or hope you have line of effect to the lock. Ability to be used in more situations is why charm monster is 4th level and charm person is 1st level. Even then outside of political campaigns like this one enchantment is often the worst school because there are still many things immune to charm monster and most other enchantments (but in your case enchantment is great). Make sure any utility on your known list will see frequent use, not just be awesome when it finally works. That's why scrolls are so great for uncommon utility; you can buy just one copy of each for the one time you finally need it, instead of blowing a spell known. Too bad you can't get them, so you gotta focus on the more frequently used spells.

If you go the stealth route you'll still want invisibility on top of silent & still, because it's a great spell and to conserve high level spells when possible. Sometimes it's ok even if they do hear you cast or they're not around when you cast, so you can invisibility => persistent image => skedaddle.

[Hexblade]

Thanks! That is some good advice. Anything else?

[5w337x7007h]

For a political campaign, I'd recommend focusing on Enchantment and Illusion. Put some points into a versatile craft skill and get the spell Fabricate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fabricate) as well.

[Hexblade]

Got it. Any Flaws I should consider taking?

[HalfQuart]

Sorcerer gives you the interesting utility spells (grease, alter self, glibness, disintegrate, etc), and is charisma based to boot.
This is a bit off-topic from where the thread has gone, but how do you get Glibness as a core-only Sorcerer? I thought the only core classes that get Glibness were Bard 3 and Assassin 4.

[ericgrau]

Got it. Any Flaws I should consider taking?

Flaws are pretty easy to make trivial.

Um noncombatant (-2 to melee attacks), pathetic on your dump stat or maybe feeble (-2 to str/con/dex skills) if you think you're gonna fail move silently hard anyway. And try not to cast in melee, but you're a back-liner in a political campaign so w/e. Maybe even vulnerable for -1 AC. I think AC is underrated, but this isn't even a fighting campaign, so, yeah.

[Demidos]

For the stealth caster:
There are rules in Races of Stone for casting without it being apparent you are casting (Sleight of hand vs spot, i believe?), and there is a skill trick as well. I dont remember either exactly, but worth asking around about.

Since you mentioned wanting your character to be fun:
See if you like the Spell Thematics feat. There is an ELH (epic level handbook) version that supersedes the Faerun one, so its okay to use, and its a fun character unique thing as well as moderately useful in making your spells harder to analyze and a bonus CL.

@Halfquart: You are correct. I meant to write that in for a bard list of spells, but then didn't write the aforementioned list and things happened and it ended up there. My mistake.