Lucifer

[Avilan the Grey]

...So... Just watched the pilot.

I like, far more so than say Gotham. I might actually stick with this one. I have not read the actual comic, though, I admit.

Anyway, any thoughts on the matter?

[Eldan]

I might watch it. I just remember from the teasers they showed that it apparently has nothing whatsoever in common with the comic. Especially not the character of Lucifer.

Which is a shame, since I liked the comic. But it would probably be unfilmable, especially not with a TV budget. The world needs more angels the size of mountains, creatures from outside reality, Ragnarök, wars between rival pantheons and the hordes of Lilith's children laying siege to the Silver City.

[BWR]

Sadly, the trailer is quite accurate. He's a fallen angel, she's a cop - together they fight crime. It seems like they are trying to hook those of us who like Vertigo Lucifer with little tidbits like the nightclub and Mazikeen, but they get almost everything wrong about his personality. He's quippy, involved in unimportant things, starts caring about humans for no reason, a sex-fiend (and not in the more sensible way) and all-round annoying. Worst of all, he seems almost scared when facing off against angels.

I might have liked the pilot better had it not billed itself as an adaptation (though I doubt it - the devil should not be annoying while trying to be cool) but since they are claiming some sort of tie to the Vertigo character... It's not so much that I'm against trying something new with characters but this is less 'do something new with a well-used and familiar character' and more 'let's ignore the most important points of this character's personality story just because'. It's not "I am Legend" values of Totally Missing the Point, but they will have to do some serious changes to bring it more in line with the comic character they supposedly base the show on.

Now, it's not a total loss; the bigger plot they hint at could easily have tied in to Constantine's Rising Darkness (I'm still pissed they canceled that show) and made for some amusing crossovers, though we'd miss out on the beautiful chemistry of hate between the Devil and John from the comics. Lucifer's retirement seems to have the same sort of great upheaval in the underworld as it did in Sandman (though so far the disturbance doesn't seem to be as great). Like Constantine, this show might get better as it moves along but at least they got John right pretty much from the get go with that one.

[Eldan]

WAT.

Lucifer. Has Sex. With a Human.

See, I can accept that he has to occasionally feel something other than mild disdain for humans, so the series can work. But sex? And quips? No.


For the uninitiated, this is comic Lucifer, showing a small bit of his power:


http://static.flickr.com/44/127109552_79d5066e8a_o.jpg?v=0



There's vs. threads online. People are putting him up against Galactus and Dr. Manhattan and I'm sure he'd win both.

But again, this isn'tt about power. Sure, tone him down as much as you want. But he's the Miltonian Lucifer. He is the personification of Will. God's Willpower. He is called Lucifer, the Lightbringer, because he made the sun and stars. He is the Sin of Pride. He does not quip.

[GloatingSwine]

There's vs. threads online. People are putting him up against Galactus and Dr. Manhattan and I'm sure he'd win both.


"And he raised his hand to strike, and a third of the stars in the sky grew dim"

Lucifer is able to direct a significant proportion of the mass energy of the multiverse. (which is appropriate because he was the one tasked with giving it form in the first place and did it in basically a day, and then did it again in the new creation).

He's about as appropriate to vs. threads as Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann (and is on the scary side of that as well).

[Avilan the Grey]

As I said I don't read the comic. So differences don't bother me.

I LIKE the Lucifer here. He's a fallen angel, not a demon. As it should be.
As for being "afraid" of other angels? I didn't get that read on him AT ALL. He seemed quite confident, but aware that he is dealing with a being on his own level in power. Lucifer isn't God, you know, he is an Archangel. So is the guy talking to him. He has once been created out of thin air, just like every other being in the multiverse.

He also has already rebelled a second time by the time of this pilot; first he waged a war against his father, then he lost, was tossed to hell, tasked with a mission: to be the jailer of those who break his Father's laws. He was never EVIL, not in the "Satan, king of demons" kind of way. He does, however, have a very very strong sense of "justice" (Like a super powered version of Garrus) And then he simply left, because he got fed up with his job. And ended up in LA. Because Irony.
combined with... Let's say a Von Oben attitude towards mortals.

Anyway, long story short, I have always liked Lucifer, the fallen angel. I have never cared for "Satan, king of Demons" which is portrayed way too often in fiction.

[Eldan]

Nono, he is an archangel too, in the comics. In fact, he was quite uninterested in running hell. THere were a few rebellions against him, and he was just vaguely amused by the. He's no demon king, he's a fallen angel of pride and will.

This Hell was written by Neil Gaiman, and it isn't for punishment or even, probably, made by god. It is made by people. Lucifer calls it a place for the guilty and the masochistic to punish themselves.

I'm not even saying this series is bad, I haven't seen it yet. But from the description, it seems to go rather aggressively against everything that makes up his character in the comic. I'm rather annoyed every time something is called an adaptation when it isn't.

[Cen]

Anyway, long story short, I have always liked Lucifer, the fallen angel. I have never cared for "Satan, king of Demons" which is portrayed way too often in fiction.

Yes, and that's why you'd love the comic. You should read it, it's great.

Regarding the pilot - it was far better than what I'd expected. The story was meh, the characters were meh, Lucifer's was horribly annoying - honestly his 'power' and sex obsession reminded me more of Desire from the same universe. Nothing, absolutely nothing was like in the comic. It was a horrible adaptation. But if not treated as one, it was quite enjoyable.

[Eldan]

I need to go re-read Season of Mist. And Lucifer, of course.

[Dienekes]

Eh not surprised they ditched everything. Would a Lucifer story even have worked without going through half of Sandman first? That said, so far nothing I've read about the show draws my interest. So unless I start hearing it turns amazing I'm gonna skip this one.

[Eldan]

You could cut Lucifer's revenge upon dream.

You'd probably have to find a new trigger for him to actually drop hell, but the basic reason could remain the same. He doesn't like hell, it's all part of The Plan anyway, so eff it, let's go to Australia.

[Cen]

Oh god I just realized - that police girl has a 'daughte'r who likes Lucifer and thinks he;s a nice guy. Police girl is somehow special and Lucifer's 'powers' won't work on her (ie she doesn't lust for him). Daughter's father is a douche.
That daughter will be Ellaine if the'll go that way, and it will be horrible...

[Eldan]

I'd forgive them a lot of crimes if they did Elaine well.

Sadly, what I'm reading here makes me doubt that will happen.

[Kitten Champion]

I watched the pilot. It's not bad especially at what it's trying to be, which as mentioned is something like Elementary, The Mentalist, or last season's Forever. Ya'know, eccentric man with astounding abilities but some serious personality flaw paired with flat attractive cop woman #5322 for reasons.

With regards to the pilot...it's way too aggressive in trying to make Lucifer seem charming in a smug toying-with-you-all-the-time sort of way, although to his credit the actor himself isn't all that bad with the role he's given. The pilot script also rushes the partnership between the main characters quite a bit. In spite of the fact that objectively Lucifer sounds insane as he makes no attempt whatsoever to hide his eldrich nature in casual conversation, and yet the cop seems fine with him openly tagging along and working with her on her investigation. A point which could potentially be moot were it not for the show making the cop also be immune to Lucifer's supernatural charm, and yet she just seems only moderately peeved with his antics which are actually pretty egregious. Lastly, the mystery isn't much of a mystery, it's a go from A to B to C and back to A sort of story. That's rather indicative of American network detective shows in general, where most of the emphasis is on the personalities of those solving the mystery and their interactions and the mystery itself a rather perfunctory thing to have something for them to do.

I'll say this as a distinct positive, it looks rather nice. It's on par with the better prime time NBC fair of the last decade or so. They went with a more realistic look using light, wide angles, authentic-feeling sets, and lots of location shots. Which in contrast makes the rather subtle use of visual effects for the more magical elements more appealing.

The show itself might as well have been - and quite probably is - some other utterly unrelated pitch/pilot script that they decided to attach the name of the comic to rather than feeling like they tried in the first place and simply fell short in adapting it. However, if you like the aforementioned formula enough to bother with it in the first place and don't find the Lucifer character too grating after the pilot, it could be worth trying out.

[BannedInSchool]

In a monumental feat of memory, I recall that John Glover was very entertaining as both the "Devil" and some angel in Brimstone. He was a bit more into manipulating and enjoying screwing with the main character (a cop sent back from Hell to capture escaped souls), but was still the fallen angel model. All angels look alike to mortals, which is why Glover was the helpful angel too. Heh, "Don't tell me I look like *HIM*!". And now the obligatory, "Damn you, Fox!". :smalltongue:

[SKarious]

Barely 5 minutes in and already I'm foaming at the mouth. This is going to be fun.

[comicshorse]

Anyway, long story short, I have always liked Lucifer, the fallen angel. I have never cared for "Satan, king of Demons" which is portrayed way too often in fiction.

In the DC universe ( at least when Lucifer was being published ) Lucifer and Satan were two different entities. Satan being not a fallen angel but the first being God created

[Brother Oni]

In the DC universe ( at least when Lucifer was being published ) Lucifer and Satan were two different entities. Satan being not a fallen angel but the first being God created

Is DC's Satan a different being from Hellblazer's The First of the Fallen?

[comicshorse]

They're exactly the same (first being created, first cast out by God for displeasing him) just different names for the same entity

[Flickerdart]

My impression is that Cop Lady isn't as immune to Lucifer's abilities as he wants her to believe - and the more she thinks that, the more she'll let her guard slip.

As for the actual character, I thought him being unlikable was the entire point.

[BWR]

My impression is that Cop Lady isn't as immune to Lucifer's abilities as he wants her to believe - and the more she thinks that, the more she'll let her guard slip.

As for the actual character, I thought him being unlikable was the entire point.

There's unlikable and interesting (like Dr. House, at least for a couple of seasons) and there's unlikable and annoying like this Lucifer.

[Avilan the Grey]

My impression is that Cop Lady isn't as immune to Lucifer's abilities as he wants her to believe - and the more she thinks that, the more she'll let her guard slip.

As for the actual character, I thought him being unlikable was the entire point.

I don't know. I think she is, but there is something...
I can't help to wonder what it is. I also think it will be a bit of a pothole, since he should know any kind of protection available.

[Kitten Champion]

My impression is that Cop Lady isn't as immune to Lucifer's abilities as he wants her to believe - and the more she thinks that, the more she'll let her guard slip.

I don't think so. For one the show brings up her immunity a couple of times, while Lucifer is a trickster character the framing of the show was intending to depict him as genuinely concerned with what her immunity portends. He also lacks any subtlety in the entirety of the pilot, which makes it hard to believe he would bother with something like that at least at this point.

Though I'm just thinking of this from a character-design standpoint. She's clearly intended to be a counterweight to his character which is something the series really needs or the entirety of it is just Lucifer casually going from place to place manipulating people with his powers and doing whatever he pleases. I'm 99% certain what they want is someone who can challenge him and his cynicism by representing the human experience from a more humanistic viewpoint and deflate his entitled smugness, which would require her not inevitably becoming yet another buffoonish pawn to his mystical charisma.

The problem is the concept doesn't gel well with how much of a doormat she is most of this pilot, not for a character they're clearly showing as being this bound and determined detective out for justice. They reduced her to making snarky comments at times while letting Lucifer do whatever he wanted anyways, because the show really wants you to fall in love with Lucifer as this dashing rogue and her character at the moment takes a backseat to that.


There's unlikable and interesting (like Dr. House, at least for a couple of seasons) and there's unlikable and annoying like this Lucifer.

Yeah, there's going to be a sharp dividing line between those who love this and those who just hate it based mostly on this.

[Eldan]

So, I'm wondering. Since she's in as at least a reference, what did they do to Mazikeen?

Because I really can't see Lucifer getting involved with another woman while she's around.

[SKarious]

"Maze" is there in name only. She doesn't look like her comic self, deosn't act like it at all and is mainly there to spout exposition and talk back snarkily to her boss.
I'm still trying to figure out if they're doing that on purpose to troll the fans, or just didn't read anything beyond the first line of each comic.

[BWR]

So, I'm wondering. Since she's in as at least a reference, what did they do to Mazikeen?

Because I really can't see Lucifer getting involved with another woman while she's around.

1. she doesn't wear the mask and apparently has a perfectly normal face
2. she just bitched at Lucifer about getting involved or something

[Eldan]

Yeeeaaaah... confidence dropping further. I mean, I would have looked into it this weekend, but I'm not hearing anything remotely enticing.