Beastmaster bad?

[PoeticDwarf]

I don't see why a beastmaster is worse than a hunter. Especially at higher levels.
Level 7 BM variant human, sharpshooter. Beast help action and hunter's mark
2d10+2d6+28 damage, +4 to hit with advantage.

If you reach level 11, you have with flying snake a perfect scout. You deal with crossbow expert and hunter's mark. With sharpshooter more damage but this is with very good to hit
4d6+10+6d4+10 damage with +11 to hit and +10 to hit (!).
With a giant badger you deal even more damage, with less to hit.

[Naanomi]

Problems with beastmaster:
1) only a handful of pets are competitive
2) the mechanics are counterintuitive
3) a GM who will let you train/buy normal pets take much of its thunder with little entry cost

Built right 'power' isn't the problem, but the class suffers in other areas

[Xetheral]

I don't see why a beastmaster is worse than a hunter. Especially at higher levels.
Level 7 BM variant human, sharpshooter. Beast help action and hunter's mark
2d10+2d6+28 damage, +4 to hit with advantage.

You'll only get advantage on the first of the two attacks.


If you reach level 11, you have with flying snake a perfect scout. You deal with crossbow expert and hunter's mark. With sharpshooter more damage but this is with very good to hit
4d6+10+6d4+10 damage with +11 to hit and +10 to hit (!).
With a giant badger you deal even more damage, with less to hit.

Note that post-errata the Giant Badger can't use Multiattack until level 11 (although there is still some dispute), and all beasts can make two attacks at that point. The errata took the Giant Badger from one of the best companions to one of the worst.

[PoeticDwarf]

Problems with beastmaster:
1) only a handful of pets are competitive
2) the mechanics are counterintuitive
3) a GM who will let you train/buy normal pets take much of its thunder with little entry cost

Built right 'power' isn't the problem, but the class suffers in other areas

Maybe the average BM is worse than the average hunter, but my point is the best BMs are stronger than the best hunters, I prefer BM far above hunter.

[PoeticDwarf]

You'll only get advantage on the first of the two attacks.



Note that post-errata the Giant Badger can't use Multiattack until level 11 (although there is still some dispute), and all beasts can make two attacks at that point. The errata took the Giant Badger from one of the best companions to one of the worst.

Oh yes you're right about that second one, but you get advantage on both attacks, don't you? Or did I read the help action wrong?

[Xetheral]

Oh yes you're right about that second one, but you get advantage on both attacks, don't you? Or did I read the help action wrong?

Help (PHB 192): "If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage."

[Sindeloke]

Beasts are also very fragile. A good AoE can take them out easily, and unlike player characters they don't have any means to overcome weak saves (resilient, lucky, indomitable, whatever). That flying snake saves at -3 against Charisma attacks and -4 against Int. Any charm, fear or illusion will stop it cold.

They're a huge drain on resources in any remotely unusual situations, too. They don't have any ability to accept a magic weapon spell, so barring DM intervention by they'll always be gimped against many common high level monsters. Getting a BM airborne costs two castings of your sorcerors fly spell. Getting them underwater takes two of the wizard's water breathings. It's just not very good design.

[Sigreid]

Beasts are also very fragile. A good AoE can take them out easily, and unlike player characters they don't have any means to overcome weak saves (resilient, lucky, indomitable, whatever). That flying snake saves at -3 against Charisma attacks and -4 against Int. Any charm, fear or illusion will stop it cold.

They're a huge drain on resources in any remotely unusual situations, too. They don't have any ability to accept a magic weapon spell, so barring DM intervention by they'll always be gimped against many common high level monsters. Getting a BM airborne costs two castings of your sorcerors fly spell. Getting them underwater takes two of the wizard's water breathings. It's just not very good design.

The one exception to the AOE is a small ranger on a mount with the Mounted Combat feat. It then has evasion.

[PhantomRenegade]

Even a character using mounted combatant will have trouble in later stages because the beast's dex save will stay at level 3 tier.

@enderdwarf: You are working under false pretences when it comes to damage you're assuming you can have your beast attack twice because of bestial fury and your character is attacking twice, in actuallity you cannot use the crossbow master bonus action attack, it requires that you use an attack action when in fact what you are doing is using you action to order your beast to attack and making one attack as a consequence of that, it's also important to keep in mind that poison is a very common resistance.

I think looking at the damage is what caused the problem in the first place, sure the beastmaster is actually pretty competitive damage wise, but that's only when you assume the beast is attacking every turn, which its not, between AOE's and the fact that if the beast dies you'll have to stop the adventure for 8 hours to get a new beast or go without you'll be using the beast very sparingly, and even then its in danger.


The beastmaster is just not worth it, even if you're after the flavour there are better options.

[Citan]

Even a character using mounted combatant will have trouble in later stages because the beast's dex save will stay at level 3 tier.

@enderdwarf: You are working under false pretences when it comes to damage you're assuming you can have your beast attack twice because of bestial fury and your character is attacking twice, in actuallity you cannot use the crossbow master bonus action attack, it requires that you use an attack action when in fact what you are doing is using you action to order your beast to attack and making one attack as a consequence of that, it's also important to keep in mind that poison is a very common resistance.

I think looking at the damage is what caused the problem in the first place, sure the beastmaster is actually pretty competitive damage wise, but that's only when you assume the beast is attacking every turn, which its not, between AOE's and the fact that if the beast dies you'll have to stop the adventure for 8 hours to get a new beast or go without you'll be using the beast very sparingly, and even then its in danger.


The beastmaster is just not worth it, even if you're after the flavour there are better options.
I didn't have a chance to play it really, but still, doesn't seem so bad is it? Although I concede that I see it more powerful as part of a multiclass which is indeed a proof that it's lacking as a pure class.

Still the ability to share buff spells doesn't seem half-bad, my real gripe with it is that Ranger has very few buff spells, rendering this ability situational at best (a few dips in Cleric/Druid make it far more useful). :/
I also don't understand why BM has to use action to direct his beast whereas most conjurations act "by themselves".

But as you said, the real problem imo is that your beast is frail, so you have either to risk it losing life quicly or dedicate your spells and concentration slot to enhance its survavibility (was thinking about the Cleric's Sanctuary or Warding Bond for example). Which means no Hunter's Mark or Arrow spells... :/

Arf, I'll really have to test it by myself now! ^^