Bruiser Party -- Need Help With Challenges

[Molan]

ok, so I've been DMing a campaign for a while (multiple campaigns, actually) with a group that likes to pretty much mimic each other. This tends to mean they all wind up making non-versatile meat shield types and I wind up being forced to keep the campaign interesting despite the fact that they only have one trick.

Our latest campaign is a almost 100% in a Sandstorm setting. What I want to do is give a breakdown of this ridiculous party and get some suggestions on how to keep things interesting.

Party is all around levels 8 - 11 by this point.

1. Human Fighter - Sword/Flail/Whatever and Board tank, focused Wholly on tanking, absorbing damage and incapacitating enemies.

2. Human/Werewolverine Barbarian/Fighter/Warshaper - he's pretty much an attempt on being Wolverine from X-Men. He's pretty low level compared to the rest of the group courtesy of his stiff level adjustment but is hard as hell to kill with super high HP and regen. Only attacks with claws.

3. Human Rogue/Swashbuckler - predictable build, uses a rapier with improved Crit and deals sneak damage on her Crits. Easily identifiable with Haley -- this PC is super underhanded and greedy, to the point where she pushes the boundaries of going from CN to CE.

4. Human Barb/Fighter - leap attack Gish. Great sword.

5. Tiefling Planar Ranger/Dervish - Improved Crit (Scimitars), dervish Gish.

6. Grey Dwarf Fighter/misc classes - I like this one actually. He use a Great Crossbow and constantly applies mechanical and other improvements to give it pseudo magical properties. Acts as the party's sniper.

I need some ideas to spice things up. Suggestions?

[Blackhawk748]

Well you have the All Mundane party, which actually makes things kinda easy. I mean theres no game breaking horribleness you need to watch out for, the party has two skill monkeys (thank god) and everyone actually seems to fight differently.

My one recommendation is for the Warshper player, dude use some more natural attacks. Dont go overboard but a tail slap and some 2 Talon attacks would be great, hell add a bite.

My advice to you, watch some Kung Fu movies, watch Kingdom of Heaven and Van Helsing. Everything those characters do in those movies is pretty much what your party can do. Downplay magic, up play badass duels and swashbuckling shenanigans. Go fight scary Caliphs in the desert. Let the sands run red with their enemies blood!! MAKE THEIR ENEMIES COWER IN FEAR FOR THE 6 WARRIORS COME FOR THEIR HEADS!!

....... oh sorry lost myself there. Basically your PCs seem to want to play Conan the Barbarian, let'em. Down play magic and focus on mundane but still badass warriors. Maybe slip in a Warblade as a Swordmaster or a Totemist or Binder as a powerful Shaman. This is a time to let ther lower Tier classes shine.

[Telonius]

Sandstorm setting? I'd feel morally obligated to send some Azurins after them.

[Blackhawk748]

Sandstorm setting? I'd feel morally obligated to send some Azurins after them.

This. Oh and a Colossal Scorpion which is their "god". Theres even a battle theme (https://youtu.be/pmoYLtObCtY?t=15m15s) for it.

[Xervous]

Just a minor bit of nitpicking. Gish is the term used to refer to characters that are a mixture of combat and casting capability such as a fighter/wizard.

[Blackhawk748]

Just a minor bit of nitpicking. Gish is the term used to refer to characters that are a mixture of combat and casting capability such as a fighter/wizard.

But he is, "Thakk knows Bull Strength!!!" *activates Rage*

[BowStreetRunner]

Basically your PCs seem to want to play Conan the Barbarian, let'em...This is a time to let ther lower Tier classes shine.

Okay, I can completely appreciate this sentiment and have to agree - the game is about having fun and if they are, then so be it. However, there is no reason to completely cut out the magic and skill side of things either, just tone it down to an appropriate challenge level.

Confusion - great spell to drop on a party like this. Put in a weak caster with this spell and have him use the disarray of the party to slip away and escape while they deal with the problems it causes them.

Healing - hit them occasionally with something more than HP damage, like a little ability damage or something else with long-term consequences. Then let them make that arduous trek to the monastery in the hills to seek healing from the priests there. Basically drop enough on them to make things difficult and to make the side trip for healing necessary and give them enough challenges along the way to make it feel like a real challenge getting there.

Anything that requires a caster or skill monkey outside the party - so they need this extra person to complete the quest. Guess what, it's time to babysit the NPC. Now they don't just have to make it to the dark tower and back, but they have to keep the NPC alive the whole way there (after that, if he bites it on the return trip he's expendable I suppose).

The formal dining experience - one of my favorite things to do with a group of armored warriors is to put them in a setting where they don't have their armor or their arsenal of weapons and then let a fight break out. The attackers would normally be weaker than them, but the difference in equipment makes this a fun opportunity to see what other tricks they have up their sleeves besides their usual shtick.

[nedz]

Several ideas

Largish combat - throw ~20 opponents at them who are 2-3 levels lower and form a military style unit. Use Tactics and Terrain. You have to be careful that this doesn't bog down, but there are many options

Snipers
Hit and Run opponents
High mobility opponents (cavalry type encounter)
Pincer attack

Horde type encounter - where the monsters just keep coming
Possession - use some monster which possesses them in turn
Moral dilemma - some situation where hitting things with sticks causes moral issues
Civil strife - rebellion/union trouble in some town. Which side do the PCs take ?

[redwizard007]

All of the above...

As the DM your job is to make sure everyone is having fun. Usually that means challenging spellcasters, with this group all you need to do find new and interesting ways for things to die. I once saw a fighter knock a young dragon off a ledge and then pin it under an overhang. I'm not kidding, it was all RAW. These guys want to be epic badasses. They will jump at the opportunity to act like action movie heroes as soon as you give them the setting to do it. The following are a small selection of ways to help make that happen.

1. Terrain, terrain, terrain. If you incorporate ledges, pillars, chasms, cliffs, lava pits, or knee deep bogs it dramatically changes the encounters in ways you can not even imagine.

2. Plan fights from the perspective of your NPCs and use terrain intelligently. Place casters or archers in areas that have limited access but are not impossible to get to. Then place bruisers or traps along the obvious path.

3. Let magic be a threat. This is important. Just because your friends didn't play wizards doesn't mean you can't. The boards here will tell you that wizards should crush your party and I will tell you right now that 6 melee characters should be able to take all but the most OP caster in situations he did not specifically prepare for. This does require making sure your party knows about disrupting spells and has the ability to deal consistent damage from range as they close with him. Begin with blasters or summoners and then move into more OP caster builds gradually until you find a good balance of threat.

4. One big bad will not last long. To draw out combat make liberal use of minions. They can be used to bog PCs down while the BBEG moves in for at least a few attacks. Spreading the battle out over a large area and using ranged attackers can also work to prolong encounters without more dice rolling (if desired.)

5. Larger battles, like small armies, can be a nice change of pace. I recommend Heroes of Battle for some great ideas along this theme.

6. Mirror image parties work great with all melee. They don't need to be copies, but melee heavy classes on hobgoblins, orcs, or even ogres can be a hell of a good time.

7. Let kobolds get nasty. Quick little trap happy punks with a few low level sorcerers and some monstrous vermin can be a headache for big bruisers. Play up the mobility, and hit and fade tactics, and the ambush/trap combination and even your wolverine clone will be looking to borrow a crossbow.

8. Buckle some swash. Ropes, chandeliers, narrow ledges, actual ship combat... This is more about making sure many (but not all) of your encounters have some aspect that appeals to your inner pirate or musketeer.

9. Get epic. Thermopylae, Troy, Normandy, Agincourt. Let your 6 be the deciding factor in great events. It may be counter charging a band of giants or holding a pass against a horde of undead but your players are getting to the level where they should be gaining renown.

thats about it for now.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Flying opponents. A Dragonkin from the Draconomicon is found in warm environments, and it's only CR 3, so give it six Fighter levels and Half-Dragon to make it CR 11. Give it TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Weapon Focus/Specialization: Javelin, Ranged Weapon Mastery (PH2), Brutal Throw (CV, uses Str for thrown weapon attacks), Improved Speed (Draconomicon), and Entangling Exhalation (RotD). Give it Gloves of Endless Javelins with enhancement bonuses to Str and Dex added (MIC p234), a Mithralmist Shirt with a Least Crystal of Adaptation, a Third Eye Freedom, a Vest of Free Movement, Anklet of Translocation, and a Healing Belt, all of which is from MIC.

He can fly fast enough to swoop in and attack them as they're traveling, preferably out in the open. If he sees they have nets or tanglefoot bags or similar, he should activate the vest of free movement on the first round, otherwise activate the mithralmist shirt first. Just full attack with thrown javelins while flying out of their reach every round, or use an entangling breath attack if he can hit most of them. He should focus his attacks on anyone who's effectively shooting back at him. If he gets beat up he can just fly away, healing belt a few times, and then come back to resume attacking, or just tail them and wait until they get in another fight or camp out for the night.

[Blackhawk748]

8. Buckle some swash. Ropes, chandeliers, narrow ledges, actual ship combat... This is more about making sure many (but not all) of your encounters have some aspect that appeals to your inner pirate or musketeer.

Seconded. Get those sand ships and lets have some Desert Pirates!

[Molan]

Man, thanks guys, these are some super good ideas. Couple of additional thoughts your ideas brought up --

1. I like the idea of temporarily $&%#ing with their access to equipment. Particularly since there are so many desert conditions that more or less force them to take off their gear since sans an NPC they lack endure elements and I'm withholding the best anti-heat items as long as possible. I'm getting the feeling that I ought to use that sparingly though, as making people fight naked while all their l00t is sitting in a pile of deadweight could get old and frustrating if overdone.

2. Sand ships + goofy/dynamic terrain is definitely in. Say I give them a superior number of medium-to-higher strength enemies using a mix of magic, ranged and Melee to force them to think sounds good. I'm mildly worried about doing TOO good a job and, should their initial charge fail miserably have them give up and abandon the encounter. I don't railroad them so I have occasionally seen them walk away from a frustrating fight, lol. Should I give them opportunities to scout the enemy prior to the engagement so they can plan to mitigate?

3. I had a plan during this campaign to introduce Formians, thinking that a large scale organized swarm menace would suit the campaign nicely. Of course, the obvious issue with them is the Hive Mind factor. My thought was that the first time they fight them, the bugs act like they DON'T have give mind (despite the fact that they'll actually retain the mechanical benefits) and lure them into the dungeon, then once they've wandered in swarm them from three directions. I've also envisioned a slave raid and a final defense scenario where the bugs hit their castle hard. Question becomes, having done that, have I swarmed myself into a creativity corner? I imagine once the PCs understand what they're fighting the excitement and the hive mind complications will start to sap the fun out of things.

Any other thoughts?

Again, really appreciate the tips!

[redwizard007]

*snip*

For the "naked" fight, it feels less like a cliche/****-move to have the weapons become accessible with a little effort. Perhaps having them in an enemy's possession or behind a wooden door. That way they actually get to feel like they win once they get their gear and you can hit them with a wave of enemy reinforcements after they sort out the gear.

Almost always let them have a chance to scout. If they don't take that chance then it's on them.

I can't speak to fomarians, haven't used them myself, but your thoughts sound good.

I encourage you to include one to two challenges of each encounter designed for each character to exploit. It could be as simple as a narrow bridge for the tank to hold, inaccessible archers for the sniper to bring down, a tightrope for the swashbuckler or something far away that only the monk can get to in time.

Good luck.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Here's a few nasty encounters:

An Umber Hulk and a Drider, just go with the typical Sorcerer spells known. Buff both with Mage Armor, distract the party with Silent Image (an open treasure chest overflowing with coins should be easy enough) then throw a Web on them and spam Lightning Bolt. The Umber Hulk can stand nearby and engage anyone who gets free and comes after the Drider, and use its confusing gaze on everyone stuck in the web. Extremely simple tactics, potentially deadly for an extremely simple-minded party. Switch the Umber Hulk's feats to Multiattack, Combat Reflexes, and Ability Focus: Gaze, and the Drider's feats to probably Improved Initiative, Ability Focus: Poison, and Improved Toughness. Remember he gets Faerie Fire as a spell-like ability.



The PCs have to go across a very sturdy, well maintained rope bridge over a vast chasm in their underground adventure. It still swings a bit and they can't go too fast. As they're making their way across two or three Gauth Beholders dart out of recesses in the ceiling and attack them.

Note that a gaze attack can be manually activated with a standard action, and the target must save vs the gaze even if they're not looking or already looked and made the save that round. Note that stun causes you to drop anything you're holding, which can be bad on a rope bridge (I'd say any light weapon falls through 75%, one-handed weapon or light shield/crossbow falls through 50%, and two-handed weapon or heavy shield/crossbow falls through 25%). If the PCs are using flaws give them Ability Focus: Stunning Gaze and Ability Focus: Eye Rays, so everything is a DC 16, otherwise replace their Iron Will and Improved Initiative feats with those.

Tactics: Gauths dart out and get a surprise round, they make no noise but if the PCs have light sources anyone with low-light vision or Darkvision gets a Spot check, to act in the surprise round. They standard-action target their gaze on anyone who didn't get stunned by looking. Preferred targets are anyone with a spell component pouch, then anyone with a bow or net or harpoon, then anyone with any other ranged weapons. Note they don't all go at once, so if the first tries to stun someone with a spell component pouch and they make the save, the next one tries on that same target.

Two eye rays can target a given 90 degree arc, so they can use two eyes against the front half of the party and two against the back half. There doesn't need to be any consistency on which particular eye ray targets what area, only that any two per gauth targets a given 90 degree arc. All three will use their Sleep ray on someone in heavy armor, their Paralysis ray on someone in light/no armor, Exhaustion on someone with ranged weapons who isn't exhausted or paralyzed, and either Dispel Magic on anyone with spell a component pouch or divine focus or Scorching Ray on the weakest looking target that's not disabled. This is all during the surprise round, gauths fly silently and if the PCs are distracted crossing the bridge then there's little chance that they're spotted.

First and subsequent rounds: Flyby Attack allows them to (eye rays) move (eye rays) stunning gaze (eye rays) move (eye rays), so the limit of two eye rays per 90 degree arc is a bit irrelevant as those two eyes per arc can change each time they move. They'll all use every eye ray at their disposal every round unless they're prevented from moving. Continue gaze-stunning anyone who's not already stunned, asleep, or paralyzed. Keep dispelling anything magic, summoned creatures are recognizable without Spellcraft ranks because they appear out of nowhere. Keep using paralysis and sleep until everyone has failed vs both, then keep using it. They'll all three concentrate their Inflict Moderate Wounds and Scorching Ray on a single unparalyzed awake target until it goes down, then switch to focusing a different unparalyzed awake target.

If one is reduced below half health it will retreat back to its alcove in the ceiling, if a second is reduced to below half health the rest will also retreat. They have about a dozen Cure Light Wounds potions on a ledge in their alcove from adventurers they've killed, they'll use two or three on each gauth that's below half health and then they'll all three come out shooting again two rounds after retreating. Repeat retreat tactics if it comes to it, if they run out of cure potions they'll just not reengage that group.

[Molan]

Here's a few nasty encounters:

An Umber Hulk and a Drider, just go with the typical Sorcerer spells known. Buff both with Mage Armor, distract the party with Silent Image (an open treasure chest overflowing with coins should be easy enough) then throw a Web on them and spam Lightning Bolt. The Umber Hulk can stand nearby and engage anyone who gets free and comes after the Drider, and use its confusing gaze on everyone stuck in the web. Extremely simple tactics, potentially deadly for an extremely simple-minded party. Switch the Umber Hulk's feats to Multiattack, Combat Reflexes, and Ability Focus: Gaze, and the Drider's feats to probably Improved Initiative, Ability Focus: Poison, and Improved Toughness. Remember he gets Faerie Fire as a spell-like ability.



The PCs have to go across a very sturdy, well maintained rope bridge over a vast chasm in their underground adventure. It still swings a bit and they can't go too fast. As they're making their way across two or three Gauth Beholders dart out of recesses in the ceiling and attack them.

Note that a gaze attack can be manually activated with a standard action, and the target must save vs the gaze even if they're not looking or already looked and made the save that round. Note that stun causes you to drop anything you're holding, which can be bad on a rope bridge (I'd say any light weapon falls through 75%, one-handed weapon or light shield/crossbow falls through 50%, and two-handed weapon or heavy shield/crossbow falls through 25%). If the PCs are using flaws give them Ability Focus: Stunning Gaze and Ability Focus: Eye Rays, so everything is a DC 16, otherwise replace their Iron Will and Improved Initiative feats with those.

Tactics: Gauths dart out and get a surprise round, they make no noise but if the PCs have light sources anyone with low-light vision or Darkvision gets a Spot check, to act in the surprise round. They standard-action target their gaze on anyone who didn't get stunned by looking. Preferred targets are anyone with a spell component pouch, then anyone with a bow or net or harpoon, then anyone with any other ranged weapons. Note they don't all go at once, so if the first tries to stun someone with a spell component pouch and they make the save, the next one tries on that same target.

Two eye rays can target a given 90 degree arc, so they can use two eyes against the front half of the party and two against the back half. There doesn't need to be any consistency on which particular eye ray targets what area, only that any two per gauth targets a given 90 degree arc. All three will use their Sleep ray on someone in heavy armor, their Paralysis ray on someone in light/no armor, Exhaustion on someone with ranged weapons who isn't exhausted or paralyzed, and either Dispel Magic on anyone with spell a component pouch or divine focus or Scorching Ray on the weakest looking target that's not disabled. This is all during the surprise round, gauths fly silently and if the PCs are distracted crossing the bridge then there's little chance that they're spotted.

First and subsequent rounds: Flyby Attack allows them to (eye rays) move (eye rays) stunning gaze (eye rays) move (eye rays), so the limit of two eye rays per 90 degree arc is a bit irrelevant as those two eyes per arc can change each time they move. They'll all use every eye ray at their disposal every round unless they're prevented from moving. Continue gaze-stunning anyone who's not already stunned, asleep, or paralyzed. Keep dispelling anything magic, summoned creatures are recognizable without Spellcraft ranks because they appear out of nowhere. Keep using paralysis and sleep until everyone has failed vs both, then keep using it. They'll all three concentrate their Inflict Moderate Wounds and Scorching Ray on a single unparalyzed awake target until it goes down, then switch to focusing a different unparalyzed awake target.

If one is reduced below half health it will retreat back to its alcove in the ceiling, if a second is reduced to below half health the rest will also retreat. They have about a dozen Cure Light Wounds potions on a ledge in their alcove from adventurers they've killed, they'll use two or three on each gauth that's below half health and then they'll all three come out shooting again two rounds after retreating. Repeat retreat tactics if it comes to it, if they run out of cure potions they'll just not reengage that group.

This is freaking awesome. No offense, I am stealing both, lol.

Any other thoughts on whether I should / should not dig myself too deep a hole with the Formians anyone?

[Blackhawk748]

This is freaking awesome. No offense, I am stealing both, lol.

Any other thoughts on whether I should / should not dig myself too deep a hole with the Formians anyone?

Make a short side quest with Formians as the central antagonists. If they dont work they dont show up again, if they work, well they're back.