Creating a Warlock and am looking for advice

[EroGaki]

Hello all! I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. :)

I'm in the process of creating a 6th level character for an upcoming game. I've decided on a warlock, but haven't decided on the details. The idea is that this character suffers from an insatiable curiosity and ended up attracting the attentions of Neth, the Plane that Lives.

Neth was first introduced in A Guide to the Ethereal Plane, a source book from the Planescape setting in 2e. Briefly, it is a living, sentient membrane the size of a continent that exists as it's own demiplane and which is characterized by an immense curiosity about everything outside of itself. Visitors to Neth are usually interviewed before being either captured via suspended animation or absorbed by the plane.

I thought it would be interesting to play a fast talking explorer who gained Neth's attention and made a deal to avoid being absorbed: act as Neth's eyes and ears on the Prime Material Plane in exchange for powers. Since both are curious and desire more and more information, it turned out to be a good deal on both ends.


The issue I'm having trouble with is the execution of the character. I can't decide how to build him. My stats are 12, 12, 13, 14, 12, 16. I think Great Old One would make the most sense, but I can't decide on getting the familar vs the tomb. An improved familiar would offer immense scouting and spying ability, while the tomb would allow me to use information seeking rituals like Commune and Contact Other Plane.

I do plan on getting the Keen Mind feat to represent how his mind has been tampered with to collect information.

In addition, I'm still undecided on a race, or whether or not I'll multiclass; starting out with a level of bard would enable me to have 4 more spells known, including Cure Wounds.

Thoughts?

[Naanomi]

I'd go tome, you can get a regular familiar with it to do some almost-as-good scouting. Also none of the special familiars fit Old Ones very cleanly (though Geth, as a living world, could easily have a pseudo dragon living on it I guess)

If the party had a wizard as well then tome loses some utility.

Races: hard to beat variant human or half elf; though light foot halfling has merit

[EroGaki]

The party is pretty full up on casters; we have a wizard, sorcerer, cleric, and druid.

[DivisibleByZero]

The party is pretty full up on casters; we have a wizard, sorcerer, cleric, and druid.

With that in mind, Bladelock would be a no-brainer for me.
It is hands down the most versatile and combat capable of the Warlock Pacts.
Tome is to make him a bit more caster-ish. But your party is full of casters and that Pact basically doesn't give you very much beyond what a feat offers.
Chain is pretty worthless in my opinion, as that familiar isn't *that* much better than a regular familiar, which can be aquired via that same feat that offers most of the Tomelock's goodies.
So a Bladelock can get most of what a Tomelock and a Chainlock have by taking a feat.
The Tomelock and the Chainlock have no way to get the combat versatility that a Bladelock has.
Bladelock is far and away, hands down, no competition, the best Warlock Pact available. Unless you're *really* trying to work the Pact choice into the fluff, I personally see no reason to take any other Pact, pretty much ever. This is even more true in your case, where the party is full of casters and could use some melee capability if and when it becomes needed.

[Naanomi]

Depends somewhat on your cleric and Druid plans as well, as either could be frontline types. I don't like bladelock much for single class types, it is hard to compete with the damage of your plain blast with any melee attack; but if neither the cleric not Druid plan on being melee capable then it might be something to consider

[WickerNipple]

The party is pretty full up on casters; we have a wizard, sorcerer, cleric, and druid.

Heh. Interesting.

Well, first. I wouldn't recommend a warlock for that party. That party needs something tanky that doesn't spend resources to do it.

But if you still wanted to be a warlock I wouldn't recommend Blade. This party utterly lacks sustainable DPR, which a shooty warlock would very much provide.

[Naanomi]

With that party you should have been a bard, one of each full caster....

But really as long as you get some blasty invocations, you should be ok whatever path you take. Consider the criminal background if no one else is lock-pick capable

[EroGaki]

Heh. Interesting.

Well, first. I wouldn't recommend a warlock for that party. That party needs something tanky that doesn't spend resources to do it.

But if you still wanted to be a warlock I wouldn't recommend Blade. This party utterly lacks sustainable DPR, which a shooty warlock would very much provide.

We have tanks as well. The full roster for the party is Moon druid acting as a tank, Ancients Paladin, Wizard Necromancer (who creates zombies), Light cleric, and a wild sorcerer acting as a trapfinder.

I'm not fond of the Blade Pact whatsoever, which is why I excluded it from my list of choices.

[WickerNipple]

Pew Pew, then.

In regards to your specific questions - I vastly prefer Tome over Chain because Tome includes Find Familiar. Yes, the improved ones are better, but they're not that much better imo.

Half-Elf is the go to race for Warlock, anything else kinda needs a reason/desire. If you're not feeling a strong pull one way or another, why not.

Great Old Ones sounds cool, but it's kinda a let down. I prefer Fiend.

If you multi-class I would highly recommend either sorcerer or fighter. Both let you start with constitution saves if you take them at lvl 1, and both give you a way to muck around with action economy and pew pew more. You have a cleric and a druid, they can heal.

[DivisibleByZero]

But if you still wanted to be a warlock I wouldn't recommend Blade. This party utterly lacks sustainable DPR, which a shooty warlock would very much provide.

A Shooty warlock? Every warlock is a shooty warlock, Pact of the Blade included. Nothing is stopping a Bladelock from taking agonizing blast. A Tomelock is about out-of-combat options via rituals. A Chainlock is about out-of-combat options via familiar scouting and such. A Bladelock is about combat options.

As for the earlier comment that a melee attack can't compete with a blast, that simply isn't true. A little math with show you as much. A TWFing Bladelock's melee damage equals or exceeds a blastlock's EB damage throughout like 16 of the 20 levels. It's competitive the entire time. And as I just said above, nothing is stopping him from having a good EB in his own right, he can have both.
Combat options.
He can also have most of the goodies of both of the other Pacts by taking a single feat.

I seriously don't understand why some people don't like that Pact. It is far and away, inarguably, the best Pact available.

edit:


Bladelocks are nowhere near as terrible as you make them out to be. As a matter of fact, it is hands down the strongest Pact choice, by a wide margin.


Chainlocks have a fantastic familiar. This can be useful for scouting, and RP, and all sorts of different out of combat situations.
Familiars in combat are going to be extremely DM dependent. I have heard many people claim that an invisible familiar can Help an ally to grant advantage on attack rolls, by saying mean things and poking enemies in the butt (that's a quote, not me being obtuse). If your DM would allow this, then go for it, but don't count on it. If your DM doesn't allow invisible cretures slinging insults to grant advantage then your familiar is going to get killed if he's in melee range. Very quickly. And very frequently.
Pact of the Chain makes you a regular blaster warlock that has some extra out of combat utility due to an amazing familiar.

Tomelocks can have a couple extra cantrips and great ritual casting.
Their extra cantrips are basically useless in combat, because Eldritch Blast will almost undoubtedly be better. So their extra cantrip choices are useful for out of combat situations. They have amazing ritual casting, but rituals are not used in combat as they take too long, so those are also useful for out of combat situations.
So Pact of the Tome makes you a regular blaster warlock that has some extra out of combat utility in the form of extra cantrips and lots of rituals.

While the other two Pacts focus more on out of combat utility via various means, the Bladelock is a bit different. The Bladelock focuses on adding more combat options, by granting proficiency in any melee weapon you want when you manifest your pact blade, and offering ways to improve your melee aptitude.
So Pact of the Blade makes you a regular blaster warlock that has a viable melee option in combat, which is something that you cannot get from another Pact.

Tthe Ritual Caster feat gives both wizard rituals (a big part of the Tomelock's schtick) and a familiar (a big part of the Chainlock's schtick). So if he wants to, with a single feat a Bladelock can gain a large portion of the other two Pacts' benefits while retaining his own. So not only does a Bladelock have something that the other Pacts cannot get in the form of reliable and competitive melee damage, but he can also get a large portion of their tricks as well.

So for a combat oriented warlock, there is really only one option, and that option is Pact of the Blade.


I have heard many people complain that Bladelocks require more invocations than other types of warlocks. This is simply untrue.

If you choose Pact of the Tome, you are useless without taking Book of Ancient Secrets (available at level three).
That's an invocation tax.

If you choose Pact of the Chain, but do not take Voice of the Chain Master (available at level three), you would literally be better off using Pact of the Tome or the Ritual Caster feat to get your familiar. Not only that, but Chains of Carceri (available at level 15) is free, slotless CC against many outsiders, and you'd be a fool not to take it unless you know for certain that these enemies will not be prevalent in the campaign.
That's two invocation taxes.

If you choose Pact of the Blade, you will take Thirsting Blade (available at level five) and Lifedrinker (available at level 12) to keep your melee damage up to par.
That's two invocation taxes.

So the Chainlock and the Bladelock each have two invocation taxes, while the Tomelock has one.
Not much difference there at all.

Every single warlock that wants to focus on dealing damage will take Agonizing Blast. There's one invocation spoken for right away, for every warlock, no matter your Pact choice, likely right at level two. People like to claim that Bladelocks won't have the same EB that another warlock has, but let me ask you, what are you spending your invocations on prior to level five? Agonizing Blast is one of them.
Every single warlock that wants to offer a little at-will CC will take Repelling Blast. Tomelocks and Chainlocks will likely take this to keep enemies away, while the Bladelock may not because he doesn't mind being in melee.

This means we probably have three invocations spoken for already for the Tomelock: Book of Ancient Secrets, Agonizing Blast, and Repelling Blast.
This means we probably have four invocations spoken for already for the Chainlock: Voice of the Chain Master, Chains of Carceri, Agonizing Blast, and Repelling Blast.
This means we probably have three invocations spoken for already for the Bladelock: Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, and Agonizing Blast. Without Repelling, he has three invocation taxes, just like the Tomelock. If he wants, he can take Repelling, bringing the total to four just like the probable Chainlock build.

So tell me, why does everyone think that Bladelocks have some harsh invocation tax? They have no more of an invocation tax than any other warlock has. Saying that they do is simply untrue.


As I have already shown, Bladelocks will have just as good of an EB as any other warlock. They don't suddenly lose the ability to choose EB as a cantrip and its accompanying invocations by taking this Pact, although that's what some people would have you believe.
They may take a little bit longer to get their Charisma to max 20, but that's almost a non-issue in actual play. In actual play, a + or - 1 for a few levels isn't going to ruin your character like some would have you believe.

So let's look at some comparisons, shall we?
We'll make the Chainlock and Tomelock (hereafter named Blastlocks) start with a 16 Cha, raising it at levels 4 and 8, to 18 and 20 respectively.
The Bladelock will begin with a 16 in both Dex and Cha, raising Dex at levels 4 and 12, and Cha at levels 8 and 16. This will leave the Bladelock with a Cha score two points lower than the Blastlock's for a couple of levels here and there.
Zero feats, zero fighting styles, zero house rules, just straight up comparisons that literally any warlock in any game can reasonably expect.
We'll assign +1 weapons at levels 3 and 8 (I was going to do 3 and 6, but that left only the Bladelock at that level, so I postponed it for ease of use), +2 weapons at levels 8 and 11, and +3 weapons at levels 13 and 16. Remember, you only need to find a single finesse weapon. The other weapon can literally be anything, as your Pact allows you to create the weapon in any form you choose.
Blastlocks have no way to increase their EB's damage (only attack and save DCs), so we'll just give them a magical rod to aid in attack rolls at levels 3, 8, and 13.
The levels chosen for the magic items (3, 8, 13 for main, and 8, 11, 16 for off hand) are a bit arbitrary, but seem reasonable.
I will not give the Bladelock a magic rod, so his EB will be at a lower attack bonus. Although swapping weapons was described by the designers as something that should simply be able to happen, which means any time he wanted to swap he should be able to without a problem. But I'll be nice and simply not give him one.

Level 1 Blastlock and Bladelock EB: hex, 16 CHA, +5 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6 damage = 0.85
55% normal chance for 1d10+1d6 damage = 4.95
Damage = 5.8

Level 1 Bladelock TWF: 2 reg sSwords, hex, 16 DEX, +5 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 4d6+3 damage = 0.85
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7
55% normal chance for 2d6+3 damage = 5.5
55% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 3.85
Damage = 10.9 / 6.35 without bonus action

TWF Bladelock is the clear winner at level 1, even without the use of his bonus action.

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Level 2 Blastlock and Bladelock EB: hex, 16 CHA, +5 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+3 damage = 1
55% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+3 damage = 6.6
Damage = 7.6

Bladelock TWF remains at 10.9 / 6.35 without bonus action

TWF Bladelock is still the clear winner with his bonus action, and is only 1 pt behind without it.

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Level 3 Blastlock EB: +1 rod, hex, 16 CHA, +6 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+3 damage = 1
60% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+3 damage = 7.2
Damage = 8.2

Level 3 Bladelock TWF: +1 pact sSword, reg sSword, hex, 16 DEX, +6 and +5 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 4d6+4 damage = 0.9
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7
60% normal chance for 2d6+4 damage = 6.6
55% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 3.85
Damage = 12.05 / 7.5 without bonus action

Bladelock EB remains at 7.6

TWF Bladelock is 4 pts ahead with his bonus action, and less than 1 pt behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is only 1 pt behind the Blastlock's.

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Level 4 Blastlock EB: +1 rod, 18 CHA, +7 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+4 damage = 1.05
65% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+4 damage = 8.45
Damage = 9.5

Level 4 Bladelock TWF: +1 pact sSword, reg sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +7 and +6 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 4d6+5 damage = 0.95
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7
65% normal chance for 2d6+5 damage = 7.8
60% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 4.2
Damage = 13.65 / 8.75 without bonus action

Bladelock EB remains at 7.6

TWF Bladelock is 4 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is only 1 pt behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is only 2 pts behind the Blastlock's.

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Level 5 Blastlock EB: 2nd blast: +1 rod, hex, 18 CHA, +8 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+4 damage = 1.05(*2) = 2.1
65% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+4 damage = 8.45(*2) = 16.9
Damage = 19

Level 5 Bladelock TWF: extra attack: +1 pact sSword, reg sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +8 and +7 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 4d6+5 damage = 0.95(*2) = 1.9
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7
65% normal chance for 2d6+5 damage = 7.2(*2) = 14.4
60% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 4.2
Damage = 21.2 / 16.3 without bonus action

Level 5 Bladelock EB: 2nd blast: hex, 16 CHA, +6 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+3 damage = 1(*2) = 2
55% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+3 damage = 6.6(*2) = 13.2
Damage = 15.2

TWF Bladelock is 2 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 3 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 4 pts behind the Blastlock's.

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Level 8 Blastlock EB: +2 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +10 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(2) = 2.2
75% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 10.5(*2) = 21
Damage = 23.2

Level 8 Bladelock TWF: +2 pact sSword, +1 sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +9 and +8 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 4d6+6 damage = 1(*2) = 2
5% crit chance for 4d6+1 damage = 0.75
70% normal chance for 2d6+6 damage = 9.1(*2) = 18.2
65% normal chance for 2d6+1 damage = 5.2
Damage = 26.15 / 20.2 without bonus action

Level 8 Bladelock EB: hex, 18 CHA, +7 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+4 damage = 1.05(*2) = 2.1
60% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+4 damage = 7.8(*2) = 15.6
Damage = 17.7

TWF Bladelock is 3 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 3 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 3 pts behind the Blastlock's.

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Level 11 Blastlock EB: 3rd blast, +2 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +11 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
75% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 10.5(*3) = 31.5
Damage = 34.8

Level 11 Bladelock TWF: +2 pact sSword, +2 sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +10 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 4d6+6 damage = 1(*2) = 2
5% crit chance for 4d6+2 damage = 0.8
70% normal chance for 2d6+6 damage = 9.1(*2) = 18.2
70% normal chance for 2d6+2 damage = 6.3
Damage = 27.3 / 20.2 without bonus action

Level 11 Blastlock EB: 3rd blast, hex, 18 CHA, +8 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
60% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 8.4(*3) = 25.2
Damage = 28.5

Level 12 Bladelock TWF: +2 pact sSword, +2 sSword, hex, 20 DEX, 18 CHA, +11 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 4d6+11 damage = 1.25(*2) = 2.5
5% crit chance for 4d6+2 damage = 0.8
75% normal chance for 2d6+11 damage = 13.5(*2) = 27
75% normal chance for 2d6+2 damage = 6.75
Damage = 37.05 / 29.5 without bonus action

At level 11 the Blastlock pulls ahead with his third blast, and at level 12 the Bladelock catches up again with Lifedrinker. I grouped all of these together.
TWF Bladelock is 2 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 5 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 6 pts behind the Blastlock's.

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Level 13 Blastlock EB: +3 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +13 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
85% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 11.9(*3) = 35.7
Damage = 39

Level 13 Bladelock TWF: +3 pact sSword, +2 sSword, hex, 20 DEX, 18 CHA, +13 and +12 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 4d6+12 damage = 1.3(*2) = 2.6
5% crit chance for 4d6+2 damage = 0.8
85% normal chance for 2d6+12 damage = 16.15(*2) = 32.3
80% normal chance for 2d6+2 damage = 7.2
Damage = 42.9 / 34.9 without bonus action

Bladelock EB remains at 28.5

TWF Bladelock is 3 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 4 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 10 pts behind the Blastlock's.

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Level 16 Blastlock EB: +3 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +13 vs AC 18
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
80% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 11.2(*3) = 33.6
Damage = 36.9

Level 16 Bladelock TWF: +3 pact sSword, +3 sSword, hex, 20 DEX, 20 CHA, +13 vs AC 18
5% crit chance for 4d6+13 damage = 1.35(*2) = 2.7
5% crit chance for 4d6+3 damage = 0.85
80% normal chance for 2d6+13 damage = 16(*2) = 32
80% normal chance for 2d6+3 damage = 8
Damage = 43.55 / 34.7 without bonus action

Level 16 Bladelock EB: hex, 20 CHA, +10 vs AC 18
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
65% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 9.1(*3) = 27.3
Damage = 30.6

TWF Bladelock is 7 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 2 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 7 pts behind the Blastlock's.

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Level 17 Blastlock EB: 4th blast, +3 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +14 vs AC 19
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*4) = 4.4
80% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 11.2(*4) = 44.8
Damage = 49.2

Bladelock TWF remains at 43.55 / 34.7 without bonus action

Level 17 Bladelock EB: 4th blast, hex, 20 CHA, +11 vs AC 19
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*4) = 4.4
65% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 9.1(*4) = 36.4
Damage = 40.8

And at level 17 the TWF Bladelock finally falls behind, by 5 pts with his bonus action, and by a significant 14 pts behind without it.
Most campaigns don't even go this far, so it is very possible that you may never see a time when your Bladelock's melee damage falls behind that of a Blastlock's EB.
Bladelock's EB is 8 pts behind the Blastlock's.

As you can see, the Bladelock's melee damage stays competitive with, or better than, the Blastlock's EB all the way through level 16. At level 17, the Blastlock pulls ahead by about 5 points.
And this entire time, the Bladelock still has a good EB himself if he wants or needs it.
And remember, I didn't give the Bladelock a magic rod. If he also has one, like the Blastlock, his EB is slightly lower between levels 4-15 due to -1 to hit comparatively because of a slightly lower Cha during those levels. But that -1 to hit doesn't change things very much. Beyond that, at levels 1-3 and 16+ he would have an identical EB to the Blastlock if he also had a rod, and will only be a tiny bit behind (by a couple of points at most) during levels 4-15.

So, in summary:
No, Bladelocks do not have any crazy invocation tax.
No, Bladelocks do not suffer from damage issues.
What Bladelocks do is offer you a second combat option in melee, and that option is fully functional and viable.
The Bladelock can spend a feat to get many of the same goodies as warlocks with other Pacts, while getting something that the Other Pacts have no way to get in a melee option that rivals a Fighter through 19 levels of play.
Why some of you think this is an inferior Pact is beyond me. It is hands down the most powerful Pact available.

[Naanomi]

TWF doesn't work with pact, both because of lack of attack stat damage on offhand and because you only get one pact weapon. Perhaps you meant polearm mastery?

Polearm master with hex gets you 2x 1d8+1d6+10 and 1x 1d4+1d6+10; takes two invocations and a feat, requires two stats at 20, and eats your bonus action (making hex more unwieldy); end damage with hits averaging 53. It does make better use of haste and reactions (discounting war caster) and better in tight quarters. A magic weapon pushes numbers up if available.

Blasting takes one stat at 20 and 1 invocation and gives 4 attacks at 1d10+1d6+5, averaging with hits 56 damage; at considerable range

[DivisibleByZero]

TWF doesn't work with pact, both because of lack of attack stat damage on offhand and because you only get one pact weapon. Perhaps you meant polearm mastery?

<snip>

Blasting takes one stat at 20 and 1 invocation and gives 4 attacks at 1d10+1d6+5, averaging with hits 56 damage; at considerable range

I said TWF and I meant TWF.
The lack of stat damage is accounted for on the bonus action attack. That the stat damage is missing is factored in already. Look at the numbers and figure out how I arrived at them. Not only is it pretty straightforward, but it's explained in detail before I even start to show the math.

Level 5 Bladelock TWF: extra attack: +1 pact sSword, reg sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +8 and +7 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 4d6+5 damage = 0.95(*2) = 1.9 main hand
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7 off hand
65% normal chance for 2d6+5 damage = 7.2(*2) = 14.4 main hand
60% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 4.2 off hand
Damage = 21.2 / 16.3 without bonus action

Only getting one Pact weapon is irrelevant. You simply need to find one finesse weapon (to use in your offhand), and one [any] weapon to use as your pact weapon (which you then create as a finesse weapon when you manifest it), as I said in the post.

As to your 56 average damage. No.
Look at the numbers I have shown. They do not average the damage dice in a vacuum. They average the damage in relation to hits and misses vs set ACs. The misses lower that potential average 56 down some, to the numbers I provided. The numbers I provided are not the potential average per round, they are the true average per round.

Level 17 Blastlock EB: 4th blast, +3 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +14 vs AC 19
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*4) = 4.4
80% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 11.2(*4) = 44.8
Damage = 49.2 not 56, but 49.2

As for the Invocation comment, all I'll say is that I covered that within the post, and I'll leave it at that.

[Naanomi]

To hit is irrelevant we are toting the same bonuses, if anything the blast benefits more from that breakdown because it benefits slightly more from critical hits (d10 vs d8); and in any case the bladelock in the comparison has much higher stat requirements and had more magic items (at much lower level than the DMG guidelines, though I realize few GMs follow them; but benefits from them disproportionately to begin with); magic items he will likely be competing with other dedicated melee types for in most parties.

All that aside, the end result is a few points of damage difference and a few often marginal tactical differences... Which are great when you need them,
So any pact is a viable option for the OP

[DivisibleByZero]

To hit is irrelevant we are toting the same bonuses, if anything the blast benefits more from that breakdown because it benefits slightly more from critical hits (d10 vs d8);
<snip>
magic items he will likely be competing with other dedicated melee types for in most parties.

Who is he competing with for the weapons?

The full roster for the party is Moon druid acting as a tank, Ancients Paladin, Wizard Necromancer (who creates zombies), Light cleric, and a wild sorcerer acting as a trapfinder.
Maybe the Paladin. Maybe.

To hit is irrelevant? Umm.... No, it isn't. It's very relevant. And I have accounted for the fact that the Bladelock's attack bonuses are lower at certain times.... as was explained fully in the post.
That breakdown favors the Blastlock? How? I have accounted for criticals. That's what the 5% is for on every. single. calculation.... as was explained in the post. 1d10 vs 1d8? I think you mean 1d10 vs 1d6, because I used a d6 for the finesse weapon, and the Bladelock *still* comes out on top for 16 of the 20 levels when he gets to use his bonus action to attack, and he's *still* competitive when he doesn't or when he uses his EB instead.
Perhaps you should read it all one more time.

[PoeticDwarf]

The party is pretty full up on casters; we have a wizard, sorcerer, cleric, and druid.

Bladelock does decent damage, if you make it optimal with TWF or GWF it becomes strong damage. 1 level fighter gives you a fighting style and AC. But that isn't good for fluff. Many full casters can work, but say that must go for constitution as secondary stat, and the wizard/sorcerer goes for mage armor and shield. With a war/tempest cleric it could work, and then you don't have to go bladelock.
If you have still an ASI, take crossbow expert. It gives it ability on all ranged attack rolls, also spells.

[EroGaki]

I appreciate all the suggestions thus far. :)

I would like to say that as of now, I have no interest whatsoever in playing a bladelock; it has nothing to do with whether or not it can perform decently in the dpr department. I just don't like it. Besides, it doesn't fit this particular character concept.

The idea I have in mind is a sort of spy/researcher who does what he can to acquire hidden and forbidden knowledge. I'm going with GOO because of the many mind affecting spells, along with things like detect thoughts.

The reason why I'm strongly considering Chain is because of the sheer versitility of the improved familiars; having an invisible scout with hands whom I can use to spy, scout and act as an extra set of eyes is very valuable. And while normal familiars can do a lot of that, it's not nearly as effective.

On the other hand, having access to all of the rituals would also be handy; the other party members would have those same rituals, but depending on the our goals, I might not want the other characters to know what I'm up to.

[Ferrin33]

I appreciate all the suggestions thus far. :)

I would like to say that as of now, I have no interest whatsoever in playing a bladelock; it has nothing to do with whether or not it can perform decently in the dpr department. I just don't like it. Besides, it doesn't fit this particular character concept.

The idea I have in mind is a sort of spy/researcher who does what he can to acquire hidden and forbidden knowledge. I'm going with GOO because of the many mind affecting spells, along with things like detect thoughts.

The reason why I'm strongly considering Chain is because of the sheer versitility of the improved familiars; having an invisible scout with hands whom I can use to spy, scout and act as an extra set of eyes is very valuable. And while normal familiars can do a lot of that, it's not nearly as effective.

On the other hand, having access to all of the rituals would also be handy; the other party members would have those same rituals, but depending on the our goals, I might not want the other characters to know what I'm up to.

It will be incredibly easy for you to access all rituals as well instead of needing to rely on your DM for them.

[Shining Wrath]

I think Neth is an Great Old One.

Take Tome, take Book of Ancient Rituals, the spells you inscribe in the Book are one form of providing your patron with information about the Prime. With all those full casters you ought to be able to add nearly every spell with the ritual tag to your Tome, assuming you ask nicely.

[Naanomi]

As much as I think tome is the mechanically superior choice, Neth is the plane that LIVES, and sends extensions of himself into the multiverse to learn... Sounds like a curious familiar to me after some thought

[Nifft]

As much as I think tome is the mechanically superior choice, Neth is the plane that LIVES, and sends extensions of himself into the multiverse to learn... Sounds like a curious familiar to me after some thought

Hmm, right.

Neth the Plane that Lives.

Maybe Neth is all about being living inanimate matter.

So maybe Neth is actually projecting himself into the Prime as a weapon of some kind... a weapon which smacks its lips after it tastes someone new.

[EroGaki]

I think Neth is an Great Old One.



Well, technically Neth exists within the known universe; there's even a color pool that leads to Neth in the Astral Plane. But I'd agree that the plane is aberrant enough to warrent being referred as such.

[Shining Wrath]

Well, technically Neth exists within the known universe; there's even a color pool that leads to Neth in the Astral Plane. But I'd agree that the plane is aberrant enough to warrent being referred as such.

Speaking more carefully: if you wish to use Neth as a Patron, of the choices [Fey, Fiend, Great Old One, and Ghost in the Machine] it seems to align more closely to Great Old One.

[ImSAMazing]

Bladelock does decent damage, if you make it optimal with TWF or GWF it becomes strong damage. 1 level fighter gives you a fighting style and AC. But that isn't good for fluff. Many full casters can work, but say that must go for constitution as secondary stat, and the wizard/sorcerer goes for mage armor and shield. With a war/tempest cleric it could work, and then you don't have to go bladelock.
If you have still an ASI, take crossbow expert. It gives it ability on all ranged attack rolls, also spells.

Bladelock is bad even with Max str and max cha you still do less damage then Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling blast.

[DivisibleByZero]

Bladelock is bad even with Max str and max cha you still do less damage then Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Repelling blast.

If you look above, you'll see that this is a misconception, and that Bladelocks deal competitive damage to a Blastlock's EB, actually surpassing it with vanilla TWFing (no feat, not style, no houserule) and periodic magic weapons, all the way until 17th level.
Don't automatically drink the Kool-Aid just because everyone else is.

[FabulousFizban]

quarterstaff, shillelagh, pole-arm master. done.

[Corey]

A Shooty warlock? Every warlock is a shooty warlock, Pact of the Blade included. Nothing is stopping a Bladelock from taking agonizing blast. A Tomelock is about out-of-combat options via rituals. A Chainlock is about out-of-combat options via familiar scouting and such. A Bladelock is about combat options.

As for the earlier comment that a melee attack can't compete with a blast, that simply isn't true. A little math with show you as much. A TWFing Bladelock's melee damage equals or exceeds a blastlock's EB damage throughout like 16 of the 20 levels. It's competitive the entire time. And as I just said above, nothing is stopping him from having a good EB in his own right, he can have both.
Combat options.
He can also have most of the goodies of both of the other Pacts by taking a single feat.

I seriously don't understand why some people don't like that Pact. It is far and away, inarguably, the best Pact available.

edit:




Hi!

I'm not figuring out how to quote spoilers, but anyway, I'm lost right at the beginning of the calculations.

At Level 1, you give 5% crit chance each for 4d6 and 4d6+3 in the Bladelock case. But you're not using a 2d6 weapon so far as I can tell, so I don't understand how that can be correct.

[Malthorn]

If the only hang up between time and chain is the familiar then work with your DM. It might be possible to find a middle ground that you are happy with. I have a GOO Warlock who has a Stirge Spore Servant as a familiar. My patron is some sort of ancient fungus creature. A friend has a Wizard with a crawling claw as a familiar.

[EroGaki]

Speaking more carefully: if you wish to use Neth as a Patron, of the choices [Fey, Fiend, Great Old One, and Ghost in the Machine] it seems to align more closely to Great Old One.

That's what I figured as well. While I'm not too fond of GOO from a mechanical stand point, I do agree that the flavor fits Neth the best. It's times like this, though, that I wish there were more patron options, or a fairly streamlined method of creating your own.

I believe I'll be speaking with my DM about the possibility of adding a few spells to the Warlock list, specifically some conjure spells.

[EroGaki]

As much as I think tome is the mechanically superior choice, Neth is the plane that LIVES, and sends extensions of himself into the multiverse to learn... Sounds like a curious familiar to me after some thought

That's my thinking as well. And considering how many creatures Neth as absorbed or captured over the eons, it wouldn't be at all out of character for it to release an imp or something for use as an assistant.

[Corey]

With all those full casters you ought to be able to add nearly every spell with the ritual tag to your Tome, assuming you ask nicely.

What are the mechanics for that?

A wizard can let you see his spellbook, but what are the mechanics for learning rituals from anybody else?

[twas_Brillig]

If you felt like converting the Eyeball beholder (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eyeball) it'd be a good fit for your familiar. With or without the explicit beholder fluff, a nodule of Neth taking the form of a fleshy ball of eyes and teeth seems like it fits your concept. Depending on whether or not it keeps the eyebeams, it might be balanced as a standard familiar. With mage hand you can even get around the lack of actual limbs.

Aside from that, a raven could be a good fit if you went Tome. They're smart, curious, and associated with all kinds of weird magic-y business. If your DM is lenient, real life ravens are also tool-users which could be useful.

[Naanomi]

If go with pseudodragon probably for Neth if I had to play as written, though the shapeshifting of a quasit/imp makes them pretty adaptable of the DM is willing to tweak a little

[Shining Wrath]

What are the mechanics for that?

A wizard can let you see his spellbook, but what are the mechanics for learning rituals from anybody else?

They have to create a scroll, the mechanism for doing so is not provided in the PHB that I recall offhand but it is possible to do so as said scrolls (especially low level ones) are available as treasure.

[Toadkiller]

As a DM I would let a sorcerer, for example, teach you a ritual of a spell they know during downtime. You'd have to pay the price per usual and it would take awhile to learn.

The party has the spell already, so it isn't ground breaking and it would promote the idea of character interaction.

[Citan]

Hello all! I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. :)

I'm in the process of creating a 6th level character for an upcoming game. I've decided on a warlock, but haven't decided on the details. The idea is that this character suffers from an insatiable curiosity and ended up attracting the attentions of Neth, the Plane that Lives.

I thought it would be interesting to play a fast talking explorer who gained Neth's attention and made a deal to avoid being absorbed: act as Neth's eyes and ears on the Prime Material Plane in exchange for powers. Since both are curious and desire more and more information, it turned out to be a good deal on both ends.

Thoughts?
Hi!! :)

I agree with WickerNipple that it would have been better for the party as a whole to go front, but your character concept is too interesting to put aside.

And, for your character concept, there is only one real choice of Pact: Tome. Because using Tome to get cantrips from other classes, and later poaching spell rituals from any class is right on with your fluff.
It's not a bad thing to boot. You can get Shillelagh and Thorn Whip to get a decent attack at least if needed, then RP cantrips if you'd like, then become THE ritual caster of the party.
Your main attack will be Eldricht Blast though.
You can also take Crossbow Expert if you want to be able to blast EB at close range. Although I don't see why you would go into melee, it could happen that some enemy comes to you, but it's fairly situational (if your party does the job it shouldn't happen). :)
Warcaster is another good feat to keep Hex and such or blast Eldricht Blast if you're close enough (although without Crossbow Expert, not very efficient). :)

You could actually make a melee build as a Tomelock for the sake of fun, shielding yourself with Mage Armor (Invocation) then Armor of Agathys, blasting your way close range with Eldricht Blast. But it comes online very late (because feats) and you're still be a squishy character, so... Not recommended unless your character also has a crazy, suicidal bit in him. ^^

As a DM I would let a sorcerer, for example, teach you a ritual of a spell they know during downtime. You'd have to pay the price per usual and it would take awhile to learn.

The party has the spell already, so it isn't ground breaking and it would promote the idea of character interaction.
+1 very nice idea.

quarterstaff, shillelagh, pole-arm master. done.
Thing is, for a pure Warlock you'd have to get Tome Pact for that. Meaning you have no extra attack, no +CHA to damage.
As DivisibleByZero demonstrated, for a Warlock wanting to go melee the best way (balancing simple and efficient) is Bladelock.
Only two builds could concur: the very specific and very late build combining EB+Warcaster+Crossbow Expert, and only if you can regularly use your reaction. So, very situational.
Or, a Bladelock 12+ / Bard 6+ who would use Quarterstaff with Polearm Mastery (for bonus action attack) and Shillelagh. Which is again coming online later.

Bladelock is very competitive for damage as long as you take all required Invocations, just more squishy than other melee attackers. :)

[8wGremlin]

Suggestion

Play a tomelock, ask your DM if you can re flavour an owl familiar from a normal find familiar spell to be your Neth appropriate version.

That way mechanically they are not changing any rules or stats for you.

And you keep you look and feel of your concept

[Corey]

They have to create a scroll, the mechanism for doing so is not provided in the PHB that I recall offhand but it is possible to do so as said scrolls (especially low level ones) are available as treasure.


As a DM I would let a sorcerer, for example, teach you a ritual of a spell they know during downtime. You'd have to pay the price per usual and it would take awhile to learn.

The party has the spell already, so it isn't ground breaking and it would promote the idea of character interaction.

So, then:

By RAW, there's no known mechanism other than scroll scribing ...
... for which there isn't a known mechanism. :smallbiggrin:
But RAW don't say there aren't mechanisms; it just fails to spell them out.
By RAI, if somebody else knows the spell, and is favorably inclined toward you, you can get access to it, but surely have to endure at least the scribing/time costs described for other spellbook filling.



Is that about right?

[Toadkiller]

That's how I'd do it. Some things aren't really worth worrying about.

[EroGaki]

If you felt like converting the Eyeball beholder (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eyeball) it'd be a good fit for your familiar. With or without the explicit beholder fluff, a nodule of Neth taking the form of a fleshy ball of eyes and teeth seems like it fits your concept. Depending on whether or not it keeps the eyebeams, it might be balanced as a standard familiar. With mage hand you can even get around the lack of actual limbs.

Aside from that, a raven could be a good fit if you went Tome. They're smart, curious, and associated with all kinds of weird magic-y business. If your DM is lenient, real life ravens are also tool-users which could be useful.

Awww, I love beholderkin! I wish they had those converted to 5e.

[Strill]

With that in mind, Bladelock would be a no-brainer for me.
It is hands down the most versatile and combat capable of the Warlock Pacts.Bladelock is the LEAST versatile or combat capable of the Warlock pacts.

Your survivability is unchanged, you do less damage than you would with Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast, you have no additional utility, you LOSE utility from needing two invocations just to keep your pact weapon's damage up, and if you want to do anything other than bad damage, you need a 2-handed weapon which means you have serious multiple ability dependency (STR, CON, DEX, CHA).

Bladelock gains you absolutely nothing over blastlock, and loses you quite a bit. Eldritch Blast already bypasses resistances, and can be used even when stripped of equipment. The only thing I can think of a pact weapon doing that Eldritch Blast can't is being used as a crowbar or a shovel.

The only way to make a Bladelock work is to start at level 1 as a Fighter or Cleric for heavy armor. That way you can dump DEX and focus on STR. It still doesn't make Pact of the Blade any better of an option comparatively, but it makes it workable.


Tome is to make him a bit more caster-ish. But your party is full of casters and that Pact basically doesn't give you very much beyond what a feat offers.Tome gives you access to ALL ritual spells, not just ones from one class.


Chain is pretty worthless in my opinion, as that familiar isn't *that* much better than a regular familiar, which can be aquired via that same feat that offers most of the Tomelock's goodies.Chain gives you a permanently invisible familiar. With an invocation, it can spy for you from any distance. It's an incredibly powerful perk that ensures you always have everything scouted beforehand.


So the Chainlock and the Bladelock each have two invocation taxes, while the Tomelock has one.
Not much difference there at all.
Tome and Chain's invocations both expand your utility. Blade's invocations do nothing but keep your pact weapon a viable option. They add no additional utility. If you're trying to say that they're of equivalent value, you're nuts.


As I have already shown, Bladelocks will have just as good of an EB as any other warlock. They don't suddenly lose the ability to choose EB as a cantrip and its accompanying invocations by taking this Pact, although that's what some people would have you believe.No one says they can't choose Agonizing Blast, it's just that it's yet another tax on their invocations which adds no additional utility. Meanwhile, a blastlock can afford invocations like Repelling Blast which add loads of combat potential that you can't get at all from a Pact Weapon.

[EroGaki]

I appreciate all of the suggestions so far. :)

Having nailed down the character concept, I'm still up in the air as to whether or not I should play pure warlock, or do some level dipping. So far, I've sort of got my eye on three levels of bard, which would give me some much needed versatility spell and skill wise.

On the other hand, a single level of knowledge cleric would give me access to better armor and two knowledge skills with expertise added.

[Strill]

I appreciate all of the suggestions so far. :)

Having nailed down the character concept, I'm still up in the air as to whether or not I should play pure warlock, or do some level dipping. So far, I've sort of got my eye on three levels of bard, which would give me some much needed versatility spell and skill wise.

On the other hand, a single level of knowledge cleric would give me access to better armor and two knowledge skills with expertise added.

I highly recommend not to dip more than one level when playing a spellcaster. When you multiclass as a spellcaster, you end up with lots of weak low-level spells and none of the far, far, more powerful high-level spells. For example, if you were to take three levels of bard and four levels of Warlock, you would only have access to 2nd-level spells, whereas a single-classed Warlock would have access to fourth-level spells.

[Naanomi]

Warlock works better *as* a 2-3 level dip (to sorcerer or bard) than with a dip of its own outside of highly specialized builds

[EroGaki]

I highly recommend not to dip more than one level when playing a spellcaster. When you multiclass as a spellcaster, you end up with lots of weak low-level spells and none of the far, far, more powerful high-level spells. For example, if you were to take three levels of bard and four levels of Warlock, you would only have access to 2nd-level spells, whereas a single-classed Warlock would have access to fourth-level spells.

Normally, I'd agree with you. But 5e has me... unenthusiastic about the higher casting levels. Too few spell slots combined with almost *every* good spell requiring concentration makes me not want to bother. Especially since the presumption seems to be the lower level spells will do most of the leg work during an adventure anyway.

But I could be wrong.

[Corey]

Normally, I'd agree with you. But 5e has me... unenthusiastic about the higher casting levels. Too few spell slots combined with almost *every* good spell requiring concentration makes me not want to bother. Especially since the presumption seems to be the lower level spells will do most of the leg work during an adventure anyway.

But I could be wrong.

There are three kinds of spells.

1. Those which involve no concentration. Examples would include Wish, Foresight, Glibness, Plane Shift, Teleport, Mass Suggestion, Disintegrate -- and I deliberately picked spells from Levels 6-9 in those examples, including the exact ones I would take at each level if I played a Warlock, which admittedly I don't plan to do.

2. "Concentration, but ..." spells. In some cases, the concentration requirement isn't that big a deal. This includes a lot of spells you might use mainly out of combat. It also includes ones that, in combat, are likely to get resolved quickly. E.g., Hold Person should lead to a rapid demise of the Holdee, at which point the spell ends anyway.

3. Ones where the concentration limitation hurts. There are indeed a lot of those -- examples include (very partial list) Fly, Haste, Greater Invisibility, Suggestion (if used in combat), and a whole lot of battlefield-control ones.

Also -- if you're a Warlock, you're not going to be casting many spells per fight anyway. So I'm not sure how much the concentration limitation matters in practice.