Smartest Marvel Characters

[Logic]

Ok, so in a mild argument with a co-worker, who are the smartest characters of the Marvel Universe?

My Picks (In no particular order)

Reed Richards
Tony Stark
Hank Pym
Doctor Victor Von Doom
Charles Xavier

[Dhavaer]

Peter Parker's pretty bright.

[Logic]

Peter Parker's pretty bright.

Bright, but I don't think he is a genius. His best inventions are his webbing/web-slingers and his Spider-Trackers.

Compare that to Dr. Connors, or even Norman Osbourne.

(The aforementioned coworker claimed Parker should be in the top 5. I think being generous, he makes the top 20.)

[Shadow of the Sun]

I'm going to go with Reed Richards.

Mainly because I don't like Pym or Stark, because they are both pricks.

Although, Doom is a very close second.

[kpenguin]

Loki, god of mischief? He's divinely intelligent.

[kerberos]

Bruce Banner is up there too when he's not busy going "HULK SMASH!". I agree with SotS that Reed takes the nr. 1 spot though.

Spiderman is extremely smart, but not an actual supergenious in the comic sense of the word.

ETA: In an issue of Exiles a bit back they said that they'd expect a world without Bruce Banner, Reed Richards and Tony Stark to be significantle less advanced than the current one. That would be a reasonable argument for saying that they constituted the top 3.

[kpenguin]

Don't forget Stephen Strange. He's the best in a field that Reed could never understand: the supernatural.

[sun_tzu]

Bright, but I don't think he is a genius. His best inventions are his webbing/web-slingers and his Spider-Trackers.

Compare that to Dr. Connors, or even Norman Osbourne.

(The aforementioned coworker claimed Parker should be in the top 5. I think being generous, he makes the top 20.)

Actually, Parker's got other scientific acheivements every now and then, like that time he defeated Doc Ock by jamming the communication between his brain and his tentacles (although that one kinda backfired on him), or the time he defeated Rhino by creating a chemical that destroyed his costume and nullified his powers. Plus, he often beats enemies stronger than him by relying on cleverness.
I wouldn't put Parker in the top tier of Marvel's intelligence, but he might actually deserve to be called a genius.

As for the list...Shouldn't Thanos be in there somewhere?

[kpenguin]

Peter's certainly more clever and has more common sense then, let's say, Hank Pym.

[Emperor Demonking]

I'd say Reed Richards with Dr. Doom soon after.

[Jibar]

Going with just humans, I always thought it was Reed, Stark and Parker as the top minds.
Didn't Stark berate Spidey about his costume, saying he "could do better"?
Reed is, well, unfair with his intelligence. He's the only who can stop Doom, because he just makes a Doom-Be-Gone Ray. He's like the Deus Ex Machina of the Marvel universe.
I'm a big fan of Doom, so that might be a little bias.

[AmoDman]

Going with just humans, I always thought it was Reed, Stark and Parker as the top minds.
Didn't Stark berate Spidey about his costume, saying he "could do better"?
Reed is, well, unfair with his intelligence. He's the only who can stop Doom, because he just makes a Doom-Be-Gone Ray. He's like the Deus Ex Machina of the Marvel universe.
I'm a big fan of Doom, so that might be a little bias.

But Doom is his opposing Deus Ex Machina, so there.

Charles Xaviar and Stark are my favorites. Genius, meh.

[GryffonDurime]

No love for the Beast? I'd say Beast, Strange, Richards, and Doom define the major areas of academic genius in the Marvel Universe, at least so far as humans/metahumans are concerned.

[Indon]

I'm pretty sure Hank Pym is the Beast. Or at least, he was when I followed the X-men story.

I'd say, unless we're counting _humans_, then Galactus probably wins, considering his origin as a scientist (among a race with cosmic power) of his old universe.

[Mick_the_Rogue]

Nope, Beast is Hank McCoy

And Beast is certainly up there in terms of smarts, likely on par or above Xavier...Keep in mind, part of the reason Xavier is considered so bright is because he can read the minds of others (partly how he did so well in school. Don't know an answer? Read the teachers mind!)

[kerberos]

I'm pretty sure Hank Pym is the Beast. Or at least, he was when I followed the X-men story.

Hank yes, Pym no. The Beast is Dr. Henry "Hank" Philip McCoy.

[Rainspattered]

Toad, actually, is one of the smartest characters, but nobody remembers it. I'd pick him, Dr. Strange, Dr. Doom, and a few of the other "genius level intellect" scientists (Richards, Pym, etc) who pop up every now and then.

[Emperor Demonking]

I wouldn't say Hank wouldn't be in the top five but in the top 10. Quire would be high up as well as would Cypher.

[kerberos]

Peter's certainly more clever and has more common sense then, let's say, Hank Pym.
More common sense definitely, but he's not on the same level of supergenius that Pym is. Pym invented Pym particles, Ultron (yes, I know that blow up in his face, but that’s really besides the point) and equipment for speaking with ants. Parker invented web shooters and spider tracers. It's really no contests.

[Xion_Anistu-san]

Bruce Banner - Ph.D. (the aforementioned not-"HULK SMASH"-y kind), Reed Richards - Ph.D., Victor von Doom, Anthony Stark, and Stephen Strange - M.D. would be my top five smartest. Beyond that I would go:
6) Thanos (gotta love the Infinity Gauntlet :smallbiggrin: )
7) Charles Xavier (I'd never play poker with this guy. Ever.)
8) Henry McCoy - Ph.D. (He's normal, then blue, now a big blue panthor!)
9) The White Queen (Emma something - her real name escapes me)
10) Henry Pym - Ph.D. (he could never make up his mind. Big or small??!?)

But I have to give an honorable mention to one of my favorite characters of ALL time - Your Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman! He's not going to college for nothing. Although after all these years, I think he's going for his third Ph.D. by now. :smallwink: He has been able to use his brains over his atomically-activated spider-brawn on more than one ocassion. In fact, in an issue of "What if??" (I miss that title) he whipped up a set of mechanical legs overnight to defeat someone else who got bit by the spider. I know it would take me at least a week to do that. :smalltongue:

[kerberos]

Bruce Banner - Ph.D. (the aforementioned not-"HULK SMASH"-y kind), Reed Richards - Ph.D., Victor von Doom, Anthony Stark, and Stephen Strange - M.D. would be my top five smartest. Beyond that I would go:
6) Thanos (gotta love the Infinity Gauntlet :smallbiggrin: )
7) Charles Xavier (I'd never play poker with this guy. Ever.)
8) Henry McCoy - Ph.D. (He's normal, then blue, now a big blue panthor!)
9) The White Queen (Emma something - her real name escapes me)
10) Henry Pym - Ph.D. (he could never make up his mind. Big or small??!?)

Emma Frost, though I really don't think she's a supergenius, smart, possibly ,but she's not a supergenius. On the other hand I think that The Mad Thinker has a place on the list as well. He was after all the one Reed Richards called to check his calculations on social developments. Also Reed says that Amadeus Cho AKA Mastermind Excello is the seventh smartest person on the planet. I also think Pym belongs higher on the list and I'd put Doctor Strange lower. Probably not in the top ten. I'm not sure about Xavier being in the top ten either.

[Dihan]

Jamie Madrox? He gains the knowledge of each multiple that he reabsorbs.

[kerberos]

Jamie Madrox? He gains the knowledge of each multiple that he reabsorbs.
Yes, but knowledge /= intelligence.

[kpenguin]

Those smart include wisdom and common sense? Hank Pym would be a bit lower if it does. It seems that we are basing this off of scientific prowess.

[EndgamerAzari]

Y'know, as much as I hate the guy... what about Kingpin?

[kerberos]

Y'know, as much as I hate the guy... what about Kingpin?

Highly intelligent, but not a supergenius. He makes good plans, but not anywhere near the Mad Thinkers level or any of the other planer type super geniuses. He can't invent anything and he has a limited vocabulary.

[Finn Solomon]

Don't forget Stephen Strange. He's the best in a field that Reed could never understand: the supernatural.

Rightly so, but Reed beats him hands down in every single other field.

I think Dr. Richards, Tony Stark and Hank Pym are the three smartest on Earth 6-1-6. I remember during the Wolverine Enemy of the State arc Reed called the other two to discuss his latest inventions. I don't see why Bruce Banner should join them, he's not on the operating-alien-technology-level like they are. Victor Von Doom speaks for the bad guys, plus he knows all about magic.

Invisible Woman's pretty smart, right? Four advanced degrees or something like that.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Hank Pym's main power is his intelligence, which happens to be below Reed and Starks.

That and he is prick.

Although I'd say the smartest Marvel character over all is Galactus.

[Midnighter1021]

what about Norman Osbourne, Alistair Smythe, or the Kingpin?

[kpenguin]

Intelligence isn't just the ability to comprehend science or magic and their ability to invent. Its also their ability to think ahead, their judgement abilities, and their common sense. Hank Pym just doesn't have what it takes in those areas. Even Reed lacks the ability to understand human beings very well. I think they're both very smart, but to place them at the top because of their scientific accomplishments is silly.

[Sebastian]

Don't forget Stephen Strange. He's the best in a field that Reed could never understand: the supernatural.

He is more a sorcerer type, high Charisma, but intelligence only above the average. ;)

About Peter Parker I think that if Peter could dedicate all his time to science he would be near Reed's level, but usually is otherwise busy, between crimefighting and avoid starvation, but for someone for which science is essentially an hobby you had to admit he is able to come out with some pretty impressive gadgets.

[Sebastian]

Didn't Stark berate Spidey about his costume, saying he "could do better"?

Suuure, Tony, Why don't you start with giving him a couple millions dollars to buy the components to build it, mhm? It is already a miracle if the guy can afford to make his web.

[LordFluffy]

Add the High Evolutionary to the list. The character has built races of creatures after all, not to mention built armor that prevented him from death... even killing himself.

Peace.

[Tiberian]

Honestly, the question is a bit faulty. Are we talking who are the smartest, most educated people in the MU (Earth)? Only scientific smartness, 'cause their are other kinds. Or straight up smartest?
None in any particular order.
Education + Smarts:
Reed Richards
Tony Stark
Bruce Banner
Hank Pym
Hank McCoy
Victor Von Doom

Other Intelligence:
Wilson Fisk [Criminal Genius]
Matt Murdock/Foggy Nelson/Jennifer Walters [Legal Minds]
Tony Stark/Justin Hammer/Stane(?) [Business]
Steve Rogers/Nick Fury [Tactical/Military/Espionage]

Untrained/Limited Education:
Peter Parker
Kitty Pryde [according to some writers, others, not so much]
*there is probably more, I just can't think of any off the top of my head*

I disregarded any characters whose intelligence is power-based (Layla Miller)

[Nevrmore]

Any scientist. We cannot forget the mantra; In comic books, no scientist is an ordinary scientist.

If they've got a full name, they are a super genius.

[kpenguin]

He is more a sorcerer type, high Charisma, but intelligence only above the average. ;)

About Peter Parker I think that if Peter could dedicate all his time to science he would be near Reed's level, but usually is otherwise busy, between crimefighting and avoid starvation, but for someone for which science is essentially an hobby you had to admit he is able to come out with some pretty impressive gadgets.

Stephen's too aloof to have high charisma. Besides, despite his title as Sorcerer Supreme, he does not draw his magic from innate ability but rather the training given to him by the Ancient One, putting him squarely in the Wizard class. :smallwink:

BTW, I think being smart includes both a high Intelligence and a high Wisdom.

[sethdarkwater]

Ok just to be a meany-head im going to put a damper on this forum with my answer lol. Loki! Why? Because hes one of only two characters smart enough to realize that they are in a comic book universe.

[kpenguin]

I think I mentioned Loki before on the first page. He's certainly a candidate, being able to craft deceptions and plots that even the most perceptive of heroes have difficulty to unravel.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Reed Richards has said that Galactus is the most intelligent being alive.

[Logic]

For clarity, I had meant to Earth-Natives, or current Earth Dwellers (allowing the Inhumans is technically fair.)

Namor and possibly any number of potential Inhumans come to mind, however they are intelligent in other respects.

I also had the image in my mind of scientific intelligence, more along the lines of world saving intellect akin to stoppping Galactus. Not just street smarts or criminal genius.

[kpenguin]

Well, word saving intellect is always scientific. The ability to formulate plans and predict the actions of others are often key to stopping some supervillians. In terms of pure scientific ability, Reed Richards is probably the greatest earth-based intelligence.

[Elliot Kane]

Thanos is the smartest MU character, unquestionably. He has outwitted every single one of the Elders of the universe in order to win the Infinity Gems, and has achieved supreme power at least twice. 'Only Thanos defeats Thanos' is the usual maxim.

Adam Warlock could probably claim second place.

***

Purely in terms of humans, it's a bit hard to say. Reed Richards is science smart but people stupid, which is a common fault amongst Marvel's top science types.

Taking intelligence as capability for original thought (My usual definition) then most of them are not very bright outside of a laboratory.

Reed is the smartest in terms of science, but in terms of anything else, there's not a lot to choose between a great number of characters.

Captain America might actually edge it if he was not dead.

[Midnighter1021]

what about Kurt Connors (aka The Lizard) I mean he did figure out how to augment his DNA so he could grow back his arm, he also figured out that the Symbiote was a bad idea for Spiderman to have.

Or even Norman Osbourne, he created all of the Goblin Weaponry and the gliders.

and even the Kingpin, or Alistair Smythe.

[Selrahc]

The Mad Thinker, because hes a guy whose power is supergenius.
Black Panther is also generally portrayed as a very very sharp cookie.(Latest FF4 has him taking Reeds place as the FF's science guy while Reed and Sue take a honeymoon)

[Gumbo T]

I'd put Mister Sinister in the top echelon. There's no one better at genetic manipulation -- he's a step above other geniuses like Dark Beast -- and he's been alive far longer than any other scientist I can think of in the MU. He's not nearly as old as Apocalypse, though...

[DarkEternal]

The no1 place I think definetelly belongs to Reed. He is the one everyone turns to when they need some technological gadget or other. Hell, even Doom, the most narcissistic egomaniac of any universe in the end yielded and admitted that he would always be second best to Richards in science(which is why he turned towards exploring the Arcane where Richards is, by his own words a retard since he can't comprehend something working outside the laws of physics...strange since Reed once again kicked Doom's arse with a bit of help from Strange even though by now Doom is the second best sorcerer on Earth, after Strange).

Following him, I don't really know altough the top would certainly go to Hank Pym, Tony Stark and probably Bruce Banner. Xavier's and Strange's intelligence is a bit too "out" there, especially Strange's since it deals with something far different then normal on our plane of reality. Peter Parker is a prodigy, but unfortunately he never did amount to true greatness with that talent and mainly remained in the "garage inventor" sort of level intelect. Beast would rank pretty high, and if I recall correctly, Sasquatch is a pretty smart guy as well.

As for women...as far as I know super geniuses in Marvel are quite rare in female form. Moira Mctaggart and Ultimate Susan Richards are the only ones that come to mind right now.

[Indon]

On the other hand, few individuals have the versatility that Victor Von Doom showed when he clawed his way to near-supremacy in multiple fields, particularly fields as completely divorced from each other as comic book science and comic book magic, so that's easily an argument in Von Doom's favor.

[kpenguin]

Indeed, while Reed has shown himself more than able to kick Doom's arse in science, Doom shows himself to be more well-rounded. He's shown himself to be brilliant scientist, a master of arcane knowledge, an effective (if ruthless) ruler, and a sinisterly cunning schemer.. His schemes are far-reaching and often have layers upon layers. If not for his arrogance and the cosmic opposition to villiany, Lord Doom would be controlling the 616 universe by now.

[Grod_The_Giant]

1. Reed Richards.
2. Doom. He's only lower because he just doesn't realize that the FF beats him every time! You'd think a super-genius like him would get it...
3. Iron Man.
4. Pym.
5. Beast.

Honorable Mentions: Bruce Banner, Charles Xavier (poor Chuck...), Strange (#1 in supernatural matters, plus he's a brilliant surgon. Ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) out the wazoo.), Mad Thinker, Black Panther.

Guy who really should be on the list, but who never managed that science scholarship to CMU or MIT...because he doesn't realize that there are a ton of other heroes in his hometown, and his writers are mean: Peter Parker.

I'm not counting big metahumans/immortals like Galatacus and Thanos.

If you factor in practical smarts, you can bump up Peter, and maybe even add Cap, and take Pym down a notch or two.

Also, just a though here: I remember in the Death of Captain Marvel arc, when he's dying of cancer, there are a bunch of super-smart dudes hanging around trying to cure him. Only one I can remember is Hank McCoy, though.

[DarkEternal]

Indeed, while Reed has shown himself more than able to kick Doom's arse in science, Doom shows himself to be more well-rounded. He's shown himself to be brilliant scientist, a master of arcane knowledge, an effective (if ruthless) ruler, and a sinisterly cunning schemer.. His schemes are far-reaching and often have layers upon layers. If not for his arrogance and the cosmic opposition to villiany, Lord Doom would be controlling the 616 universe by now.

The thing is, and that can be attributed to crappy writing, Reed defeats Doom even in fields in which he himself says is a retard. He plain out beat him in a magic prowess match while being guided by Dr. Strange. The fact is that Reed just simply learns everything with extreme ease, even things he never even showed a remote interest in.

[Jibar]

Suuure, Tony, Why don't you start with giving him a couple millions dollars to buy the components to build it, mhm? It is already a miracle if the guy can afford to make his web.

And that is why Tony then made him a new suit.
Because Tony does have the money to make stuff like that.

[kpenguin]

The thing is, and that can be attributed to crappy writing, Reed defeats Doom even in fields in which he himself says is a retard. He plain out beat him in a magic prowess match while being guided by Dr. Strange. The fact is that Reed just simply learns everything with extreme ease, even things he never even showed a remote interest in.

Like I said, cosmic opposition to villainy. Its as if the universe itself is working against evil.

[StudlyDuck]

Just prior to Civil War, Stark actually talked to Parker about how much more he could accomplish if he had acess to the kind of equipment that guys like Stark or Richards have.

Sue Storm, I believe, also has genius level intelligence. She just gets overshadowed by Richards.

Hank Pym is kind of an interesting case. Consider the fact that he was able to invent an AI that eventually grew more intelligent than its creator.

[Gavin Sage]

Reed Richards is on the top and then Doom just below, both being above anyone else. I really try not to sort out too much below that as each has particular fields, you'd go to Bruce Banner about radiation, Beast/Xavier about genetics, Stark abour engineering and so on.

[Thorsmjolner]

The thing is, and that can be attributed to crappy writing, Reed defeats Doom even in fields in which he himself says is a retard. He plain out beat him in a magic prowess match while being guided by Dr. Strange. The fact is that Reed just simply learns everything with extreme ease, even things he never even showed a remote interest in.

Well he can stretch his brain to comprehend information that a normal person wouldn't feasibly be able to. At least I'm pretty sure i heard that somewhere....

[UglyPanda]

In a recent issue of The Incredible Hulk, Reed Richards admits that a teenager is the second smartest human in the world. Hank Pym is supposed to be way up there in the top ten, except he's insane half the time. Jamie Madrox is a jack-of-all-trades who knows far more than the average Ph.D, but since it took himself dozens of dupes to achieve this, he's probably just above average in intelligence. Susan Storm attended college, but she isn't a genius, she simply looks good in comparison to the last two guys on the team.

Other than Reed Richards being the smartest, I don't think anyone at Marvel really keeps track. In "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe", the editors gave Galactus the highest rating for intelligence due to his omniscience, but he is regularly and overwhelmingly outsmarted.

[kerberos]

In a recent issue of The Incredible Hulk, Reed Richards admits that a teenager is the second smartest human in the world.
Seventh smartest, and it says person, not human which in Marvel might very well be different.

[kpenguin]

Well he can stretch his brain to comprehend information that a normal person wouldn't feasibly be able to. At least I'm pretty sure i heard that somewhere....

That's in Ultimate, I believe. In 616, Reed isn't superhumanly intelligent, although it is quite higher than a normal real-life human might have.

[Thorsmjolner]

That's in Ultimate, I believe. In 616, Reed isn't superhumanly intelligent, although it is quite higher than a normal real-life human might have.

Ahhh, thanks for the clarification. Good to know I didn't pull it out of me bum though. :smalltongue:

[SteveMB]

Well he can stretch his brain
Figuratively and literally.

[Beleriphon]

As for women...as far as I know super geniuses in Marvel are quite rare in female form. Moira Mctaggart and Ultimate Susan Richards are the only ones that come to mind right now.

Hey now normal 616 Sue is damn bright as well, but more in the realm of actually real people intelligent. She does hold four PhDs in a variety of biology relate fields.

[DarkEternal]

In a recent issue of The Incredible Hulk, Reed Richards admits that a teenager is the second smartest human in the world. Hank Pym is supposed to be way up there in the top ten, except he's insane half the time. Jamie Madrox is a jack-of-all-trades who knows far more than the average Ph.D, but since it took himself dozens of dupes to achieve this, he's probably just above average in intelligence. Susan Storm attended college, but she isn't a genius, she simply looks good in comparison to the last two guys on the team.

Other than Reed Richards being the smartest, I don't think anyone at Marvel really keeps track. In "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe", the editors gave Galactus the highest rating for intelligence due to his omniscience, but he is regularly and overwhelmingly outsmarted.

Only the Torch really. The Thing, while acting like a buffoon more often then not attended the same college as Reed, and Reed himself said in one of the earlier FF's that he has degrees in quite a few subjects. That, and he was an astronaut. Retards do not become astrounauts.

Sue is "pretty" smart, but this is Marvel. Pretty smart in the world of Marvel where every second citizen is a freaking super genius equals to a dribbling reject in our world I am afraid.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

"Retards do not become astronauts" is my new mantra.

Otherwise I have nothing else to say on the subject, other then in their respective fields of expertise, Richards, Stark, and Strange appear to be the most knowledgable non-cosmic characters in Marvel (in the fields of general science, technology, and mysticism respectively).

[ravenkith]

Ok.

These people are not that smart.

Especially Reed Richards.

Why? Look at all the mistakes they make!

Take those into account, and ol' peter is starting to look pretty damn good...especially if you take into account the time he singlehandedly saved the universe (admittedly, with the help of the powers of captain universe).

Pete's biggest problem is his lack of time for scientific research, resulting from his overhwelming guilt complex.

[Tallis]

Reed Richards is famous for being the smartest man on Earth. He's the one everyone else turns to if they have a problem. So I'll assume those people know what they're talking about and give him the number one spot. After him I'd say:
Victor von Doom
High Evolutionary
Tony Stark
Hank Pym
Hank McCoy
Mad Thinker
Ultron

Peter Parker is a genius, but not a supragenius.

For all those throwing out non-Earth-based names, I give you Eternity. He is the physical embodiment of the universe. He knows everything that everyone else in the universe knows. If someone learns something new he knows that too. Living Tribunal is probably up there too, but he lives outside the universe, so I won't count him.

[ravenkith]

Parker invented the web fluid and shoters, according to the original timeline, when he was roughly 16 years old. Without funding, and without any special materials.

His chemical compound is built up of readily available chemical compounds (at one point he has to go to a store to buy some ingredients, IIRC), and he has been able to use this same compound to achieve a number of different effects, from the web-line, to the nets, to the web-based armor he wore at one point.

All of this is without dedicated lab-time, mind you.

He also managed to stay in university on a scholarship, (hard enough to do normally) while:
1. Fighting supercrime
2. engaging in patrols of the city
3. earning enough money to support himself
4. Collaring & capturing street-level hoods
5. Engaging in public service

He's a super-genius, I tell you. A super-freaking genius at least on par with ol' reed or tony, if not better!

Why?

Well, let's see, Reed was already out of college when he acquired his powers as a result of his own mistake. He started out, IIRC, by inheriting the baxter building, and using a mortgage he took out on it to invest in his experiments. He then went on to patent the results of his experiments in order to secure ongoing income. He spends most of his time studying phenomena and being attacked, only responding to high-level threats that either come to find him or he sees on TV (or the equivalent). He's effectively been working unrestricted with unlimited lab access for years, but he has done next to nothing to solve the world's ongoing problems of poverty, hunger, and homelessness.

Tony Stark. A corporate raider and businessman first, war-profiteer Tony Stark built his first armor to save his own life. He too, had already made it through college, and was a weapon designer for Stark industries when he made his first appearrance. An alchoholic, egotistical prick, he became a hero only as a side effect of him being trapped in a life sustaining suit of grey metal armor. Over the years, he's used his corporate acquisitions and the equipment of his fallen technology-based enemies to make improvements to his own capabilities, essentially incorporating existing technologies into his armor designs with few original innovations. With unlimited funds and lab access, and access to the finest weapon system in the world, tony stark has done nothing to arm or armor the beat cop, or help the homeless, or feed the starving. He mainly pursues personal vendettas and protects his investments as Iron Man, except when he's tooling around with the Avengers, which he funded primarily as a tax write-off.

That brings me back to old Pete. Who has no money. No labs. No inheritance. Just a guilt complex, and a desire to help people, that overrides his selfish instincts for profit, self-indulgence, and the like.

Peter Parker is a better person, and has done things that baffle even Reed Richards (who was stunned by his webs, as you may recall, and needed to ask him how it actually all worked).

The only reason Peter ever really goes to old Mr. Fantastic for help is that ol' stretch has better lab equipment than what he himself can get access to at empire state.

Maybe I'm a fan-boy, but Peter Parker is tops in my book.

[DarkEternal]

Parker invented the web fluid and shoters, according to the original timeline, when he was roughly 16 years old. Without funding, and without any special materials.

His chemical compound is built up of readily available chemical compounds (at one point he has to go to a store to buy some ingredients, IIRC), and he has been able to use this same compound to achieve a number of different effects, from the web-line, to the nets, to the web-based armor he wore at one point.

All of this is without dedicated lab-time, mind you.

He also managed to stay in university on a scholarship, (hard enough to do normally) while:
1. Fighting supercrime
2. engaging in patrols of the city
3. earning enough money to support himself
4. Collaring & capturing street-level hoods
5. Engaging in public service

He's a super-genius, I tell you. A super-freaking genius at least on par with ol' reed or tony, if not better!

Why?

Well, let's see, Reed was already out of college when he acquired his powers as a result of his own mistake. He started out, IIRC, by inheriting the baxter building, and using a mortgage he took out on it to invest in his experiments. He then went on to patent the results of his experiments in order to secure ongoing income. He spends most of his time studying phenomena and being attacked, only responding to high-level threats that either come to find him or he sees on TV (or the equivalent). He's effectively been working unrestricted with unlimited lab access for years, but he has done next to nothing to solve the world's ongoing problems of poverty, hunger, and homelessness.

Tony Stark. A corporate raider and businessman first, war-profiteer Tony Stark built his first armor to save his own life. He too, had already made it through college, and was a weapon designer for Stark industries when he made his first appearrance. An alchoholic, egotistical prick, he became a hero only as a side effect of him being trapped in a life sustaining suit of grey metal armor. Over the years, he's used his corporate acquisitions and the equipment of his fallen technology-based enemies to make improvements to his own capabilities, essentially incorporating existing technologies into his armor designs with few original innovations. With unlimited funds and lab access, and access to the finest weapon system in the world, tony stark has done nothing to arm or armor the beat cop, or help the homeless, or feed the starving. He mainly pursues personal vendettas and protects his investments as Iron Man, except when he's tooling around with the Avengers, which he funded primarily as a tax write-off.

That brings me back to old Pete. Who has no money. No labs. No inheritance. Just a guilt complex, and a desire to help people, that overrides his selfish instincts for profit, self-indulgence, and the like.

Peter Parker is a better person, and has done things that baffle even Reed Richards (who was stunned by his webs, as you may recall, and needed to ask him how it actually all worked).

The only reason Peter ever really goes to old Mr. Fantastic for help is that ol' stretch has better lab equipment than what he himself can get access to at empire state.

Maybe I'm a fan-boy, but Peter Parker is tops in my book.

The topic here is not who is "the better man", altough the amount of times that Reed saved not only a town, but an entire planet if not a galaxy is uncountable, so his own "kindness" is not really questionable. The fact is that reed's "inventions" far outdo that which Parker does. Sure, it is impressive, but hey, so is the Tinkerer who works in some self made lab underground. Parker did some amazing things, but Reed? Reed's inventions are able to save civilisations, destroy/nullify them, and the fact is that he "invents" things of such global magnitude in a matter of hours. Not years, not months, sometimes not even in matters of days. Hours.

[ravenkith]

The topic here is not who is "the better man", altough the amount of times that Reed saved not only a town, but an entire planet if not a galaxy is uncountable, so his own "kindness" is not really questionable. The fact is that reed's "inventions" far outdo that which Parker does. Sure, it is impressive, but hey, so is the Tinkerer who works in some self made lab underground. Parker did some amazing things, but Reed? Reed's inventions are able to save civilisations, destroy/nullify them, and the fact is that he "invents" things of such global magnitude in a matter of hours. Not years, not months, sometimes not even in matters of days. Hours.

My point, sirrah, is that Stark and Richards have nigh-unlimited resources and time to spend on their work, and had finished college before really getting into inventing.

Parker, on the other hand, has constructed his inventions with next to no material support, and he did it while still in high school.

He hasn't had time in his life to pursue a scientific career at all: he teaches 8 hours a day at a public school now, has to grade papers, all that jazz, in addition to everything else he does.

Parker's what, mid to late twenties? Richards and Stark are closer to 40 or 45.

Given the same time and advantages the other two have enjoyed, Parker could easily match or best them, IMHO.

In fact, didn't Stark say as much, during civil war?

[DarkEternal]

My point, sirrah, is that Stark and Richards have nigh-unlimited resources and time to spend on their work, and had finished college before really getting into inventing.

Parker, on the other hand, has constructed his inventions with next to no material support, and he did it while still in high school.

He hasn't had time in his life to pursue a scientific career at all: he teaches 8 hours a day at a public school now, has to grade papers, all that jazz, in addition to everything else he does.

Parker's what, mid to late twenties? Richards and Stark are closer to 40 or 45.

Given the same time and advantages the other two have enjoyed, Parker could easily match or best them, IMHO.

In fact, didn't Stark say as much, during civil war?

And while in college Doom constructed a machine that would enable him to travel to hell. Yes, he was that smart that he could assemble a machine that would enable him to go to a dimension outside his own, all the way to hell. He made a miscalculation there, a miscalculation that Richards caught with a single glance at his notes. Again, both of them were then just as young as Parker, in college. Reed has a knack, a "hax" if you want to call it to adapt and solve puzzles the moment he sees them or in a remarkable short time.

What I am saying is that, just because their "stories", "legends" or whatever you want to call them, start out at a later phase of their life in comic book universe doesn't mean that they were nothing before, as their origin/stories from the past keep reminding us.

[Logic]

Peter Parker turned 30, to coincide with the 30th year of published Spider-Man Comics.

Now, based upon the new arguments brought ot the table, I believe that Peter Parker could be smarter than Reed Richards, however, Reed has had years to practice developing and challenging his mind.

Peter is constantly distracted by one super-villian or another, petty crimes, and earning a living, that his mind is being wasted.

His powers are in the right place, a responsible young man that has the desire to use them to better mankind, even on such a small scale as he can affect.

Reed is more concerned with his patents, and latest calculations on how the theory of "Pi" is wrong.* Reed has all the time in the world to devote to challenging his mind, and it is exactly why he can build world saving, Galactus stopping devices in a matter of days, if not hours.

Tony has always tried to make his weapons as good as he can. When he stopped selling them, his ability to finance them might have gone down, but most of the time, he spends his days testing his inventions in a lab.

My final point: Peter Parker has untapped potential.


*Exaggeration used for effect.

[Reptilus]

Thanos is the smartest MU character, unquestionably. He has outwitted every single one of the Elders of the universe in order to win the Infinity Gems, and has achieved supreme power at least twice. 'Only Thanos defeats Thanos' is the usual maxim.

Actually, he's failed to outwit Deadpool for about a decade now in a contest Deadpool isn't trying to win with any amount of effort; he wasn't even trying until he realized how much he could get out of a pissed-off-Thanos. I mean, he got immortality and a chance for a showdown with T-Ray out of the guy, without Thanos getting what he wanted. Wade Wilson plays him like a five-cent kazoo pretty much every time they meet.

Kpenguin: When listing reasons Doom doesn't rule the 616, keep in mind he could have a bunch of times and chose not because he got all bored. Same goes for killing the FF and Avengers. It's the conquest that's the fun, not the ruling.

Why is everyone saying Reed is so smart? He's built pretty good things, but he's been outdone in tech by some, and he's been outdone in every other area by a ton of people. Beyond science, the guy's as dumb as a kleenex filled with wet sand. In science, he's really not that smart, he's just well funded and driven more than most people. When he's had too, Toad has invented some ridiculous things. Magneto's use of his powers has gotten clever to the point his mastery of magnetism is essentially identical to telekinesis. His mastery of physics is equal to to Reed's, he just doesn't invent. Instead he realizes he can kill every single person in the world pretty easily in one big swoop, if he really wants to.
Honestly, if I had to pick one, I'd go for Doom, Strange, or Toad. Doom and Strange rank about even, to the point they outwitted the most infamously and irrefutably cunning supernatural being in the cosmos (not smart, but cunning). Put Reed up against Mephisto, and you can say goodbye to his soul and probably Sue's with it. The reason Toad is in there is because several large, interspatial beings have seen him and remarked on his intellect being superhuman. His intellect, they say, is much like Iceman's omega-level mutant powers; his psyche gets in the way of him using it. Toad's been the hunch-backed, freakish assistant to Magneto for so long, and has such low self-esteem, he may come up with the most brilliant thigns in the world (when he has to, he does), but he never thinks of anything he's thought of as worth sharing. The more this evaporates (a lot of it went with his hideous/awesome deformity), the more he becomes a powerful intellectual character. Cliche as it is, if he believed in himself, I bet Toad could outwit most marvel characters any day.

[DarkEternal]

Actually, he's failed to outwit Deadpool for about a decade now in a contest Deadpool isn't trying to win with any amount of effort; he wasn't even trying until he realized how much he could get out of a pissed-off-Thanos. I mean, he got immortality and a chance for a showdown with T-Ray out of the guy, without Thanos getting what he wanted. Wade Wilson plays him like a five-cent kazoo pretty much every time they meet.

Kpenguin: When listing reasons Doom doesn't rule the 616, keep in mind he could have a bunch of times and chose not because he got all bored. Same goes for killing the FF and Avengers. It's the conquest that's the fun, not the ruling.

Why is everyone saying Reed is so smart? He's built pretty good things, but he's been outdone in tech by some, and he's been outdone in every other area by a ton of people. Beyond science, the guy's as dumb as a kleenex filled with wet sand. In science, he's really not that smart, he's just well funded and driven more than most people. When he's had too, Toad has invented some ridiculous things. Magneto's use of his powers has gotten clever to the point his mastery of magnetism is essentially identical to telekinesis. His mastery of physics is equal to to Reed's, he just doesn't invent. Instead he realizes he can kill every single person in the world pretty easily in one big swoop, if he really wants to.
Honestly, if I had to pick one, I'd go for Doom, Strange, or Toad. Doom and Strange rank about even, to the point they outwitted the most infamously and irrefutably cunning supernatural being in the cosmos (not smart, but cunning). Put Reed up against Mephisto, and you can say goodbye to his soul and probably Sue's with it. The reason Toad is in there is because several large, interspatial beings have seen him and remarked on his intellect being superhuman. His intellect, they say, is much like Iceman's omega-level mutant powers; his psyche gets in the way of him using it. Toad's been the hunch-backed, freakish assistant to Magneto for so long, and has such low self-esteem, he may come up with the most brilliant thigns in the world (when he has to, he does), but he never thinks of anything he's thought of as worth sharing. The more this evaporates (a lot of it went with his hideous/awesome deformity), the more he becomes a powerful intellectual character. Cliche as it is, if he believed in himself, I bet Toad could outwit most marvel characters any day.

Why? Because he is regarded as the smartest "guy" in the Marvel Universe. Science is his foundation, but with it, he managed to do things that "conventional" science would not be able to do. And Doom does not think it is "fun". If he could, he would have killed the FF, but the fact is that Doom is Reed Richards gone bad. He is his archenemy, and the mirror side of his persona, much like Captain America has his Red Skull, and to a lesser degree Peter Parker his Otto Octavius. Reed is "better" then Doom, and even someone like Doom admitted it, at the very least in the ways of science, the reason why Doom turned more towards the arcane.

And even then, when Doom started to wear that armor which enhanced his powers, guided with the fact that he was a skilled sorcerer already, he lost against Reed in an arcane duel. Reed who said he simply can not grasp magic because it defies physics like that. Reed who said he is a retard when it comes to grasping those unconventional methods where numbers and rules do not apply. Again, in the matter of hours. Tutored by Strange, but he did it for the first time in his existence, something completely different, and again grasped it's foundations.

Like I said, just because Reed is now somewhere in his forties does not mean that he was not just as smart before. The fact is that his story started when he entered hs mid thirties, years that Peter Parker is yet to see. Don't get me wrong, I like Parker, and as far as street level geniuses are numbered he is up there, among the finest of them. However, Reed is the genius of Marvel Universe in whatever field the writers see it necessary. Want to make a weapon of ultimate disaster that can nullify all existence as we know it in a matter of seconds? Go to Reed. Want to save the life of an planet devouring entity that all other galaxies would rather see extinguished, and have no idea how to heal him what so ever? Go to Reed. He will find a cure. Want to tell your woman to shut up and go to the kitchen....well yeah, I suppose that can be Reed too.

[Yuki Akuma]

I wouldn't say Hank wouldn't be in the top five but in the top 10. Quire would be high up as well as would Cypher.

Cypher isn't a supergenius. Smart, sure. He comes off as being incredibly intelligent mainly due to his innate ability to comprehend any language. This includes computer languages, which explains why he's so darn good with computers. :smalltongue:

[StickMan]

I would go Reed, Pym, Beast,Banner, Parker, Stark. Of the major Hero's in that order. I think Profesor X is yes smart but not like these guys if you asked me who was the wisest charater I would put him at the top of the list as we all know Int and Wis are diffrent scores:smallwink:. Parker is very smart honestly I think smarter than Stark, you just almost never get to see it. If he had a lab, funding, and was not getting attacked by random super villans we would see a lot more out of him. He may even be higher up the list.

[ravenkith]

Could you imagine if all of these guys, as part of the initiative storyline, were told, instead of showing up in costume, to go put on a lab coat and put in some time together in a giant laboratory complex?

They could probably solve world hunger in a week.

[DarkEternal]

Could you imagine if all of these guys, as part of the initiative storyline, were told, instead of showing up in costume, to go put on a lab coat and put in some time together in a giant laboratory complex?

They could probably solve world hunger in a week.

Oh, I have no problem in believing that they will solve world hunger once progress was made in reality. Same as diseases like Aids. Once it is curable in reality the writers will see it that the top master minds of Marvel/DC knew it years ago how to cure it, just were unable to put it in public.

Speaking of world hunger, wasn't Swamp Thing's project which made him what he was based on solving world hunger?

[Ubiq]

Huh, so (unless I missed it somewhere) we have this entire thread on intelligent Marvel characters and the only mention of Doc Ock is Peter figuring out a way to beat him and not a reference to his status as a top nuclear scientist? Come on, even Reed Richards said that Otto was the greatest living authority on radiation.

I don't know that he's the smartest character in the Marvel Universe, but he should be high on anybody's list. He may not crank out super-devices in the same fashion as some of these characters, but he doesn't exactly have their resources either.

[Logic]

Huh, so (unless I missed it somewhere) we have this entire thread on intelligent Marvel characters and the only mention of Doc Ock is Peter figuring out a way to beat him and not a reference to his status as a top nuclear scientist? Come on, even Reed Richards said that Otto was the greatest living authority on radiation.

I don't know that he's the smartest character in the Marvel Universe, but he should be high on anybody's list. He may not crank out super-devices in the same fashion as some of these characters, but he doesn't exactly have their resources either.

Otto, the greatest mind on the subject of radiation? I sincerely doubt it. Dr. Chen Lu, or better known as Radioctive Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_Man_%28comics%29) should take that honor.

Now that you mention Otto and radiation, I think that Dr. Octavius, and Dr. Lu should have a firm place in the top 50. Perhaps Dr. Connors should be somewhere in the top 100.

[Ras Sha'Akhamen]

Why? Because he is regarded as the smartest "guy" in the Marvel Universe. Science is his foundation, but with it, he managed to do things that "conventional" science would not be able to do. And Doom does not think it is "fun". If he could, he would have killed the FF, but the fact is that Doom is Reed Richards gone bad.
This is simply untrue. He's had the chance to kill the FF and not done many, many times, because he thinks the world would be boring without someone to fight. When did get control of a world, once, I recall him abandoning it because it was really the conquest that was fun.

He is his archenemy, and the mirror side of his persona, much like Captain America has his Red Skull, and to a lesser degree Peter Parker his Otto Octavius. Reed is "better" then Doom, and even someone like Doom admitted it, at the very least in the ways of science, the reason why Doom turned more towards the arcane.
I disagree that Doom is any worse in science. He made on mistake that Reed caught, yeah, but that was more a careless error from the way it's presented. He always manages to escape complete destruction from the FF, while he's had them in that position numerous times and simply let them go.


And even then, when Doom started to wear that armor which enhanced his powers, guided with the fact that he was a skilled sorcerer already, he lost against Reed in an arcane duel. Reed who said he simply can not grasp magic because it defies physics like that. Reed who said he is a retard when it comes to grasping those unconventional methods where numbers and rules do not apply. Again, in the matter of hours. Tutored by Strange, but he did it for the first time in his existence, something completely different, and again grasped it's foundations.
Well, yeah, but that's honestly more Good-guys-don't-lose Rule writing flaw than anything else. He did it that one time and it was forgotten totally and never came up again. It was the classic "miracle victory" where a last-minute loophole that can save the goodguys pops up, so he learns it. If he had learned Doom-level arcane abilities, really, why would he just stop using them after that one time? Also, Doom is still in canon as the second-in-line sorceror Supreme, meaning he is still a better mage than Reed.
Again, I postulate Reed isn't that great a scientist, just better funded than most. Reed also requires the other three FF members to even survive against Doom, who is one guy. If he's so smart, why can't he even fight one guy?
I also direct you to Mephisto. Doom beat Mephisto. He out-foxed the most infamously cunning, treacherous, and otherwise foxy character in the marvel canon, after perhaps Loki. Reed Richards would lose his soul in a second, because his mind is all science, and, evidently, one time he learns the arcane arts to beat Doom, then never uses them again.
Plus, Reed believes in psychohistory, which is so silly as to negate almost his entire character's intellectual achievements. If he were a real person, I'd be ready to accuse him of plagiarism.


Like I said, just because Reed is now somewhere in his forties does not mean that he was not just as smart before. The fact is that his story started when he entered hs mid thirties, years that Peter Parker is yet to see. Don't get me wrong, I like Parker, and as far as street level geniuses are numbered he is up there, among the finest of them. However, Reed is the genius of Marvel Universe in whatever field the writers see it necessary.
See. This is the problem. Reed's genius most often comes out as something that just ends the story from a bad, easy writing perspective. When other characters are used along with him, things don't work that way. He cloned Thor. That wasn't smart. That was very, very dumb. While he bails the FF out in its more poorly-written segments, because the writer can't think of anything else, then he's a genius. When he's around other characters, it doesn't show as much.


Want to make a weapon of ultimate disaster that can nullify all existence as we know it in a matter of seconds? Go to Reed. Want to save the life of an planet devouring entity that all other galaxies would rather see extinguished, and have no idea how to heal him what so ever? Go to Reed. He will find a cure. Want to tell your woman to shut up and go to the kitchen....well yeah, I suppose that can be Reed too.
Want him to accidentally murder one of your friends because he didn't check his calculations? Reed's there. Want him to turn you into a deformed, rocky creature? Reed's there, too. Want him to fail at defeating one guy in a man-dress without the help of at least three other people, and even then not so much defeat him as simply survive him? Reed's your man. Want to make faulty predictions using shoddy psuedoscience? Reed's got a chart for that. Want to be able to fight off galactus with a tool somebody else already made, but you used? Reed Richards, along with everyone else who's got opposeable thumbs, is your only hope. Want to save someone's soul from Mephisto? Ree-- Oh, no, wait, you'll need Doom or Strange for that one. Want to use real physics instead of comic book physics to solve a problem? Ree-Um, Magneto and Iceman are two pretty good choices for that one. Want to conquer America from superpower megacorporations with only a few Gypsies on your side, horrendously outgunned? That's still not Reed (it's Doom). Want to hold your own against a God in a battle of wits and magic? Call Doom. Want to control several entire universes, only to abandon them from boredom? Get Doom to take them, whatever Reed Richards wants to do about it.

[Xuincherguixe]

I don't read enough of these to make much of a contribution. Mostly I follow comics in a sense of what they represent. But, here are my thoughts

Are we talking about wits, critical thinking, knowledge, or wisdom?

With Civil War it can be said that Tony Stark doesn't have a lot of wisdom. Reed Richards never was very wise. But they've got the critical thinking and knowledge down.

I've only seen a bit of The Hulk, but Bruce Banner has got science down pretty hard. I think no one can go through that much grief without getting some amount of wisdom out of it, but at the same time, it can mess with your mentality such that you're stuck on how things are more than how they should be.

Peter Parker has all of these qualities, but limited resources. The world getting him down doesn't seem to keep the guy from getting back up and keeping up the struggle. It might take awhile, but he never calls it quits for good.

Victor von Doom is hard to place. Certainly he's got the science down, and knowledge. But I would say he's got even less wisdom than Richards, which is saying something.

Galactus definitely has a lot of Wisdom, he's older than the Universe isn't he? But, I don't know that much about his background so I can't say about the other qualities. Not very witty at all, but he shouldn't be. In fact, most of the villains aren't.

Magneto is in many ways on par to Xavier, but it seems like he doesn't think things through quite so much. He gets foiled a lot, but I can't say that he lacks wisdom in that he believes Mutants and Humans can't coexist. In this way, he may be showing more than Xavier. Of all the rivalries in the Marvel Universe, this is one of the best.

Don't know much about Marvel Loki. Norse Myth Loki though has been at times called the wise fool. He does some pretty stupid things, but he also has insight that no one else could. But then, many (most?) of the Norse Gods were fairly lacking in Wisdom.

If however we are to go by Marvel, it's all just arbitrary and stuff is all at whatever they say it could be. With their love of all things Cyclops I wouldn't be surprised at all if they said he was one of the smartest people in the world. I (don't) hate to break it to you Marvel but Cyclops is boring!


I don't know how I would rate off all these qualities though. It's pretty hard to compare many of these characters because they are such different things. I
f you ignore the other comic lines and focus solely on Spiderman turf, Peter Parker really is a genius. It seems that his intelligence is as much reason why he's effective as all these incredible powers. I don't know how much of a story focus it is, but I've gotten the sense that his intelligence is what lets him get so much use out of them. I wish I knew more so I could argue about his intelligence compared to Osbourne's, but Normie has access to, or at least has had access to all kinds of resources Parker never did. He seems to be good at manipulating people. Parker can't do that. He's too good for that. He is inherently more limited. The guy can't really throw a bus full of people at a charging Rhino. Given unlimited resources like Richards or Stark have, Peter would probably make all kinds of physics defying things too. But he's probably too good to accept those too. Which is helpful for two reasons. First, it shows how strong of a moral character he has. Second? It stops Spiderman from becoming a war of the gadgets.

Spiderman was never supposed to be about a war of gadgets.

...I think.

edit: I just read Ras Sha'Akhamen's post just above. That colours things pretty nicely. And also encourages me to go out and buy the comics... But I probably won't still :P Thought provoking.

[Mr. Mud]

I Think the top marvel think tanks of old would defianatley be(in no orderbesides Doc Strange):

Reed Richards
Spiderman
Tony Stark/Iron Man
Silver Surfer (Wise)
and the #1 would Be Doctor Strange

But i know Several people will disagree with me :smallamused:

[Ras Sha'Akhamen]

I still don't even think Reed Richards deserves to be on the list. The college profs up at CU have made inventions more scientifically groundbreaking than he did, and without the many intellectual flaws.
I don't disagree that Tony's smart; Civil War showed, if anything, more cunning in that guy. Less morality, yeah, but Stark Industries was profitting like not other off of that war.

Doom's Wisdom: I don't know if it's so much that he's unwise as he is more arrogant than he is Wise. There's also the whole "I would get bored without them" sort of thing that is questionable, when it comes to just logical, practical thinking, but shows a consideration for the future a lot of supervillains don't put in.

[DarkEternal]

This is simply untrue. He's had the chance to kill the FF and not done many, many times, because he thinks the world would be boring without someone to fight. When did get control of a world, once, I recall him abandoning it because it was really the conquest that was fun.

Yeah, and I have seen the FF capture/defeat Doom at least twice as many in the history of the FF books.


I disagree that Doom is any worse in science. He made on mistake that Reed caught, yeah, but that was more a careless error from the way it's presented. He always manages to escape complete destruction from the FF, while he's had them in that position numerous times and simply let them go.

And yet, I have seen the FF utterly defeat/humilate Doom which made him pretty much obsessed with Richards. He hates the man so much he would do anything and everything in his power to defeat/humiliate him. Yes, Doom had them at his mercy a few times because if he didn't then he would be a clown and not a villain. However the amount of time that they utterly crushed him far outweighs his accomplishments in the said field.



Well, yeah, but that's honestly more Good-guys-don't-lose Rule writing flaw than anything else. He did it that one time and it was forgotten totally and never came up again. It was the classic "miracle victory" where a last-minute loophole that can save the goodguys pops up, so he learns it. If he had learned Doom-level arcane abilities, really, why would he just stop using them after that one time? Also, Doom is still in canon as the second-in-line sorceror Supreme, meaning he is still a better mage than Reed.

I never claimed that Reed was the better wizard. That honor does belong to Doom. I am just saying that Reed has the ability to adapt to any problem thrown his way, and can rise to any challenge, even one that is supposed to be entirely out of his league such as magic which he is a self confessed moron when taken into account. Reed considers magic to be too random, something that is not governed by numbers or laws of physics and can not be placed into theory which is why he was never even remotely interested in exploring it.


Again, I postulate Reed isn't that great a scientist, just better funded than most. Reed also requires the other three FF members to even survive against Doom, who is one guy. If he's so smart, why can't he even fight one guy?
I also direct you to Mephisto. Doom beat Mephisto. He out-foxed the most infamously cunning, treacherous, and otherwise foxy character in the marvel canon, after perhaps Loki. Reed Richards would lose his soul in a second, because his mind is all science, and, evidently, one time he learns the arcane arts to beat Doom, then never uses them again.
Plus, Reed believes in psychohistory, which is so silly as to negate almost his entire character's intellectual achievements. If he were a real person, I'd be ready to accuse him of plagiarism.

I disagree. Many people outwitted Mephisto, including Reed and Sue when Franklin was abducted by him in one arc because Mephisto was scared of Franklin's powers. You seem to hate Reed for some recent reason and defy the accomplishments that he did during his existence. He would not lose his soul if it meant saving someone, anyone that is dear to him. Like I said, he would rise to the challenge of everything and anything thrown his way. If he used those arcane skills once, he would learn them again if that was what was necessary to defeat Mephisto. [/QUOTE]




See. This is the problem. Reed's genius most often comes out as something that just ends the story from a bad, easy writing perspective. When other characters are used along with him, things don't work that way. He cloned Thor. That wasn't smart. That was very, very dumb. While he bails the FF out in its more poorly-written segments, because the writer can't think of anything else, then he's a genius. When he's around other characters, it doesn't show as much.

Every character makes mistakes. Wilson Fisk who is one of the greatest strategists among the criminals, who predicts every move and manages to guide a "genius" like Parker like a dog all the time got his arse in the "legal" department kicked by Matt Murdock. Being the best in something doesn't mean you can not make mistakes, because you can. However, not learning from those mistakes is a whole different matter.


Want him to accidentally murder one of your friends because he didn't check his calculations? Reed's there. Want him to turn you into a deformed, rocky creature? Reed's there, too. Want him to fail at defeating one guy in a man-dress without the help of at least three other people, and even then not so much defeat him as simply survive him? Reed's your man. Want to make faulty predictions using shoddy psuedoscience? Reed's got a chart for that. Want to be able to fight off galactus with a tool somebody else already made, but you used? Reed Richards, along with everyone else who's got opposeable thumbs, is your only hope. Want to save someone's soul from Mephisto? Ree-- Oh, no, wait, you'll need Doom or Strange for that one. Want to use real physics instead of comic book physics to solve a problem? Ree-Um, Magneto and Iceman are two pretty good choices for that one. Want to conquer America from superpower megacorporations with only a few Gypsies on your side, horrendously outgunned? That's still not Reed (it's Doom). Want to hold your own against a God in a battle of wits and magic? Call Doom. Want to control several entire universes, only to abandon them from boredom? Get Doom to take them, whatever Reed Richards wants to do about it.

Reed cured Ben countless of times before and were it a physical thing, Ben would no more be "rocky". It is a mental state of things, a psychological thing that makes him...well, the Thing. Proven in the arc where all of their powers were taken away and mental blocks were placed to disable them from getting it. Ben got them back by simply saying that he is the Thing, and that nobody can take that away from him because he is too stupid to be normal. I don't know which of his friends he "murdered" because he miscalculated. Maybe something in the Civil war, but I didn't yet read that pile of crossovers. Still recovering from the Clone saga. Reed defeated Doom many times completely on his own, especially in the comics when the other three(or even Sue herself) were abducted. Do you know why Reed sent Torch to get the Nullifier from Galactus's ship? Because Torch doesn't care about the gadgets in there. He doesn't understand them and therefore cares not. Reed could and would spend too much time there searching for the Nullifier and get lost in the ship while marveling at the gadgets, and understanding them. Bear in mind that most civilisations most prominent minds can't understand how even the simplest gadget in Galactus's ship operates. He knew what a Nullifier was when simply looking at it for one time. For Mephisto I already said. Check arcs where he went to save Franklin from there. If you are complaining about comic book physics then don't bother reading comics anymore because then characters like Peter, Doom, Richards and so on and so on would not exist. That argument is void. You forgot to mention that Doom earned his money by whoring himself/stealing from the rich people for a good few years before being able to launch a coup at the government, and even then he used "comic book physics" or arcane powers to do so by hypnotising most of the officials. Yeah, and Reed made the machine to actually go to Heaven and have a nice and decent chat with God. Yeah, and Reed actually discovered entire new universes. Scratch that for his minor achievements. Negative Zone, Sub space and so on. Not to mention that every hero(until Registration act) went to Reed whenever they had a problem that takes grey matter to solve first, and considered other heroes only as an alternative.

[Finn Solomon]

I can't believe there's still a question over this. It's Reed Richards. He is the default smartest Marvel character. It's what he's known for, it's what defines him.

[RationalGoblin]

I can't believe there's still a question over this. It's Reed Richards. He is the default smartest Marvel character. It's what he's known for, it's what defines him.

No, his knowledge of SCIENCE is what defines him. What kind of smarts are we talking about? Wisdom, book-smarts, pure intellligence, or otherwise? Mainly, the reason Doctor Doom and Reed are considered the smartest is because they have enough resources and time to put their intelligence into action.

The FF have much more time and perhaps money to devote to stopping whatever. They don't have jobs, they're just rich enough because Reed has patented several thousand inventions of his. (On another note, it would be an interesting storyline if someone sued ((Oh look, I made a bad pun)) Reed because one of the inventions malfunctioned and hurt them or something like that.)

Doom however, has several reasons why he does even have enough time to use all his resources. 1. He worked hard to free his dead mother's soul from Mephisto's realm, 2. World domination (it's harder then you think, you know), 3. He has to rule his country, 4. He works tirelessly to stop the FF, and 5. He makes almost as much gadgets as Reed's does.


Also, Batman may be DC, but he is still one of the most intelligent characters in the comic book universe, is he not?

And so I direct your attention to this (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031016) and this. (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031018)

Satisifed?

[Ras Sha'Akhamen]

Yeah, and I have seen the FF capture/defeat Doom at least twice as many in the history of the FF books.
Yeah, but he always gets away. There have been times the FF only got away because Doom let them.




And yet, I have seen the FF utterly defeat/humilate Doom which made him pretty much obsessed with Richards. He hates the man so much he would do anything and everything in his power to defeat/humiliate him. Yes, Doom had them at his mercy a few times because if he didn't then he would be a clown and not a villain. However the amount of time that they utterly crushed him far outweighs his accomplishments in the said field.
Untrue. Neither has ever utterly crushed the other; they're all still around. The number of times Doom could have crushed them far outweighs the nubmer they could have crushed him. Doom's schemes may not always work, but there have been times when they have, and it only takes one of those times for him to elimate the FF if he wanted to. The FF may foil his schemes, but they never really defeat him, since he's always back with another.
The FF never win against Doom; they just don't lose.


I never claimed that Reed was the better wizard. That honor does belong to Doom. I am just saying that Reed has the ability to adapt to any problem thrown his way, and can rise to any challenge, even one that is supposed to be entirely out of his league such as magic which he is a self confessed moron when taken into account. Reed considers magic to be too random, something that is not governed by numbers or laws of physics and can not be placed into theory which is why he was never even remotely interested in exploring it.
Self-limitation is always a mark of intelligence. Aside from that, Reed can't handle every problem thrown at him. Reed can handle every problem thrown at the FF that there is no other way out of. That's not intelligence, that's poor writing. I'll say again, in other comics, where other characters could solve the problem, they do. For all Reed's supposed genius, he fails to stop Doom's alternate universe from conquering Earth, while Captain America handles the problem with a grenade after being shot in the chest. Reed may know science, but he has no common sense, no skill in most other fields, and most of his successes are Deus Ex Machina that other members of the FF have pulled just as easily without him there; once, when he was kept in a coma by Doom, Grimm displayed the same level of intellectual competance as Richards, because that was the required Deus Ex Machina.


I disagree. Many people outwitted Mephisto, including Reed and Sue when Franklin was abducted by him in one arc because Mephisto was scared of Franklin's powers.
Ahem, Sue. Sue is smart. Much smarter than Reed. You've got no argument from me, there.

You seem to hate Reed for some recent reason and defy the accomplishments that he did during his existence. He would not lose his soul if it meant saving someone, anyone that is dear to him. Like I said, he would rise to the challenge of everything and anything thrown his way. If he used those arcane skills once, he would learn them again if that was what was necessary to defeat Mephisto.
Reed's accomplishments? He's built a few cool things, been the primary Poor Writing Device in FF, and used scientific principles a high school graduate would probably see the holes in to argue his point. Reed's a smart guy, yeah, but there are as-smart-or-smarter professors at a college that I'm using as my safety school. He's by no means stupid, I'd just honestly say that I know or know of more people than I can count on my hands in the real world smarter than him.
The thing is, it wasn't Doom's arcane skills that defeated Mephisto. Doom freed someone's soul from Mephisto's control, which nobody else has ever done (Ghost Rider freed his own, but there have been so many retconned explanations for that I'm not even going to bother figuring out which one is right) by simply outwitting Mephisto.



Every character makes mistakes. Wilson Fisk who is one of the greatest strategists among the criminals, who predicts every move and manages to guide a "genius" like Parker like a dog all the time got his arse in the "legal" department kicked by Matt Murdock. Being the best in something doesn't mean you can not make mistakes, because you can. However, not learning from those mistakes is a whole different matter.
Wilson Fisk isn't a great lawyer, though. Matt Murdock is. Reed Richards is supposed to be a great scientist, and makes extreme mistakes in his own field. It is really, really common knowledge that clones do not necessarily share the personality of the original in the real world, and known even more concretely in the Marvel world, where plenty of clones with different personalities exist. If Reed honestly didn't understand that cloning Thor would get him Thor, or thought that a few computerized protocols would give him the power to program a God (similar measures didn't even work on Wolverine, and he's certainly not deific), he needs to go back to both middle-school biology and wherever it is in life that one learns mortal technology doesn't mean **** to deific powers.
The problem with Reed is he makes too many mistakes in his own field. It would be like Dr. Strange accidentally lighting a neon signwhen he meant to hide the New Avengers from Tony.


Reed cured Ben countless of times before and were it a physical thing, Ben would no more be "rocky". It is a mental state of things, a psychological thing that makes him...well, the Thing. Proven in the arc where all of their powers were taken away and mental blocks were placed to disable them from getting it. Ben got them back by simply saying that he is the Thing, and that nobody can take that away from him because he is too stupid to be normal.
I'm fairly certain it's canon that Reed can't cure Ben, which is why he is overcome with guilt about, let me think, not being able to cure Ben.


I don't know which of his friends he "murdered" because he miscalculated. Maybe something in the Civil war, but I didn't yet read that pile of crossovers. Still recovering from the Clone saga.
Bill Foster in Civil War. The Thor Clone killed him.


Reed defeated Doom many times completely on his own, especially in the comics when the other three(or even Sue herself) were abducted.
As I said, the FF are all Deus Ex Machina, Reed is just that way the most often. Still, though, I don't remember Reed ever stopping Doom alone.

Do you know why Reed sent Torch to get the Nullifier from Galactus's ship? Because Torch doesn't care about the gadgets in there. He doesn't understand them and therefore cares not. Reed could and would spend too much time there searching for the Nullifier and get lost in the ship while marveling at the gadgets, and understanding them.
So being unable to focus enough to ignore a few gadgets lying around is the mark of intellect? Any kid with ADD is "the smartest character" in Marvel, then. I mean, understanding them is pretty neat, but you know who understands them better? The various people who invented them. I understand AC, but Nikola Tesla is smarter than me because he invented it.
Bear in mind that most civilisations most prominent minds can't understand how even the simplest gadget in Galactus's ship operates. He knew what a Nullifier was when simply looking at it for one time.
That's not true. So many characters have understood Galactus's technology that it's kind of ridiculous. Also keep in mind that a lot of that was stolen from people from other races who created it, and a lot of it was created by Galactus.

For Mephisto I already said. Check arcs where he went to save Franklin from there.
Do you know numbers? I really would like to see it.


If you are complaining about comic book physics then don't bother reading comics anymore because then characters like Peter, Doom, Richards and so on and so on would not exist. That argument is void.
Not really. I argue that a character who realizes they can kill everyone on Earth in a heartbeat with a valid explanation is smarter than a character who makes an Anti-Doom ray just because it's kinda needed to finish the story. I don't mean "comic book physics" as in "The flash would tear his own skin off" I mean comic-book physics as in "The heroes never lose, so this works."


You forgot to mention that Doom earned his money by whoring himself/stealing from the rich people for a good few years before being able to launch a coup at the government, and even then he used "comic book physics" or arcane powers to do so by hypnotising most of the officials.
Magic, I'm okay with. Magic specifically ignores the laws of physics.
Reed's pretense of science is irritating, for one, and for another, doesn't really make him that smart. If he was really smart, he'd learn magic so that he can do in a few words what takes him weeks of building to do, and is just as scientifically grounded as most of his science. Or, like Magneto, actually think about how things work on a scientific scale, and realize that without even using that much magnetism, he could kill everyone alive.

Yeah, and Reed made the machine to actually go to Heaven and have a nice and decent chat with God. Yeah, and Reed actually discovered entire new universes.
Toad made a machine capable of transcending dimensions (same as going up to heaven, he just wanted to go to Earth instead). New dimensions are discovered practically once a month in some magazine or another, throughout Marvel, so forgive me if I don't think that's so big an achievement as when Doom created his own Entirely New Universe.

Scratch that for his minor achievements.
This is a comic book, that is minour.

Negative Zone, Sub space and so on.

Not to mention that every hero(until Registration act) went to Reed whenever they had a problem that takes grey matter to solve first, and considered other heroes only as an alternative.
This is simply not true. Strange has been just as much of a source of wisdom, and done his job better. When someone asks Reed for an "impossible" task, he does it. He, say, tries to control a godclone with programming that didn't work when they tried to control a non-god robot with it. Doctor Strange says "though it is within the scope of my powers, there are things in which man is not meant to meddle." People went to whoever could solve the problem. If they needed a robot, they probably went to Hank Pym, since that's pretty much what he does. If they needed tactics, they probably lookeed to Captain America before Richards. Emma Frost and Charles Xavier both did perfectly well with their own grey matter (Emma declining to read Reed's mind once, because "there's nothing but ego in there," or something like that), which was capable of Mental tasks that would cause Reed's brain to shut down from overload. Xavier could analyze the DNA of six-billion people at once, keeping track of their locations with only a computer sorting the DNA from satellite analysis for help. Reed Richards needed to write moderately complex probability down on a sheet of paper. Do you know the calculations Magneto has to do in his head to reprogram a Sentinal in seconds. He has to be doing hundreds or thousands of magnetic force equations, even more electrical force and charge equations, and converting them all between one another in his head in a matter of momets, before one of the big things shoots him.

[DarkEternal]

No, his knowledge of SCIENCE is what defines him. What kind of smarts are we talking about? Wisdom, book-smarts, pure intellligence, or otherwise? Mainly, the reason Doctor Doom and Reed are considered the smartest is because they have enough resources and time to put their intelligence into action.

The FF have much more time and perhaps money to devote to stopping whatever. They don't have jobs, they're just rich enough because Reed has patented several thousand inventions of his. (On another note, it would be an interesting storyline if someone sued ((Oh look, I made a bad pun)) Reed because one of the inventions malfunctioned and hurt them or something like that.)

Doom however, has several reasons why he does even have enough time to use all his resources. 1. He worked hard to free his dead mother's soul from Mephisto's realm, 2. World domination (it's harder then you think, you know), 3. He has to rule his country, 4. He works tirelessly to stop the FF, and 5. He makes almost as much gadgets as Reed's does.


Also, Batman may be DC, but he is still one of the most intelligent characters in the comic book universe, is he not?

And so I direct your attention to this (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031016) and this. (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=031018)

Satisifed?

Except that pretty much all of those things that you claim Doom does on his own he actually doesn't which has been showm countless times he was assaulted/questioned. Most of those things are done by Doom bots and not by the man himself. As for The FF idea, it has been done in some Marvel knights arc I believe. They lose all the money and go to work. Reed becomes some scientist for a company, Sue a teacher, Ben works in construction and I think Johnny goes to work in a car shop. Can't remember really.


Untrue. Neither has ever utterly crushed the other; they're all still around. The number of times Doom could have crushed them far outweighs the nubmer they could have crushed him. Doom's schemes may not always work, but there have been times when they have, and it only takes one of those times for him to elimate the FF if he wanted to. The FF may foil his schemes, but they never really defeat him, since he's always back with another.
The FF never win against Doom; they just don't lose.

One of the most historical FF issues is when Ben himself utterly humilates him by crushing Dr. Doom's gauntlets and making him incapable of fighting further. Even Doom mentions a few issues back when pummeling on Doom(naturally, was defeated in the end) that he was never so humiliated, especially it coming from a brutish ogre. That was just one of them. When Doom "killed" Richards before it happened he was again thoroughly defeated if I remember. You call Reed a plot device and poor writing, and Doom using doom bots for every time he gets his arse kicked, Every.single.time, don't? Hell, they even joke about it in the comics themselves already that whenever Doom does something bad it must have been a Doom bot.


Self-limitation is always a mark of intelligence. Aside from that, Reed can't handle every problem thrown at him. Reed can handle every problem thrown at the FF that there is no other way out of. That's not intelligence, that's poor writing. I'll say again, in other comics, where other characters could solve the problem, they do. For all Reed's supposed genius, he fails to stop Doom's alternate universe from conquering Earth, while Captain America handles the problem with a grenade after being shot in the chest. Reed may know science, but he has no common sense, no skill in most other fields, and most of his successes are Deus Ex Machina that other members of the FF have pulled just as easily without him there; once, when he was kept in a coma by Doom, Grimm displayed the same level of intellectual competance as Richards, because that was the required Deus Ex Machina.

I don't get it. I just don't. You are complaining that he is a deus ex machina? Of course he is! That's the entire point. You can't just say that because the writers need a way out that he is not smart. It is especially because of that that he is smart, just another proof. You want something gone and swept under the rug? Have Reed invent something or other and nullify it all. He is as much of a deus ex in terms of science as Dr. Strange is in terms of the arcane. That does not dimnish, but in fact empower his skills ten fold just because of that. And the title of this is "Smartest" character. Not the "Character with most common sense." I do not even try to fight that his social intelligence could use a crapload of work since the guy sees all in numbers and formulas. If we went by other areas I would again never put Doom into the equation but rather someone like Peter Parker. Again this is not a thread to that but rather a thread to say who is considered smartest in the Marvel Universe. And as you will see by the majority answers here and pretty much anywhere else, it is Reed.


Ahem, Sue. Sue is smart. Much smarter than Reed. You've got no argument from me, there.

Yes she is. Socially/emotionally smart which was a key tactic to sway Mephisto in the key elements with all that "mother loves her child" thingy. But it was Reed that got them there, Reed who found a "way out" of there and devised the entire plan. He adapts. End of story. The entire FF is based, as explained in some arc or other that the FF represents the elements of the world. Reed is water. Adapting is what he does.


Reed's accomplishments? He's built a few cool things, been the primary Poor Writing Device in FF, and used scientific principles a high school graduate would probably see the holes in to argue his point. Reed's a smart guy, yeah, but there are as-smart-or-smarter professors at a college that I'm using as my safety school. He's by no means stupid, I'd just honestly say that I know or know of more people than I can count on my hands in the real world smarter than him.
The thing is, it wasn't Doom's arcane skills that defeated Mephisto. Doom freed someone's soul from Mephisto's control, which nobody else has ever done (Ghost Rider freed his own, but there have been so many retconned explanations for that I'm not even going to bother figuring out which one is right) by simply outwitting Mephisto.

Scheming is what Doom does. There is no denying that, nor do I want to lessen that Doom is a badarse character. And again you use the "poor writing device". Yes, he is that, a plot device. Like Hulk is the guy who will always lift the necessary weight that is needed(Secret wars where he lifted that mountain which was supposed to be way out of his strength range, at least was considered so back in the day. Today it's a different story), the writers will always make Reed do some new, ridicoulous thing with Reed to invent. Don't like it? Tough, because that's the way a "smart guy" like Reed was intended to be.


Wilson Fisk isn't a great lawyer, though. Matt Murdock is. Reed Richards is supposed to be a great scientist, and makes extreme mistakes in his own field. It is really, really common knowledge that clones do not necessarily share the personality of the original in the real world, and known even more concretely in the Marvel world, where plenty of clones with different personalities exist. If Reed honestly didn't understand that cloning Thor would get him Thor, or thought that a few computerized protocols would give him the power to program a God (similar measures didn't even work on Wolverine, and he's certainly not deific), he needs to go back to both middle-school biology and wherever it is in life that one learns mortal technology doesn't mean **** to deific powers.
The problem with Reed is he makes too many mistakes in his own field. It would be like Dr. Strange accidentally lighting a neon signwhen he meant to hide the New Avengers from Tony.

No, but he pretty much bought the law system. Science is about making mistakes. If everyone got it right on the first time it would be dull, non challenging field. It was not as if he made a miscalculation on what is one plus one, but rather a mistake in which he thought he would be doing what's best for the human kind. And his mortal mind seems to have worked, oh pretty good, considering the amount of time he saved the world from said deific powers. Hell, the amount of time he stopped/saved Galactus itself is worthy of mention.


I'm fairly certain it's canon that Reed can't cure Ben, which is why he is overcome with guilt about, let me think, not being able to cure Ben.

He is overcome with guilt because what he did to his friend, yes. And it's natural, and so would everyone else be. However, he can not cure Ben. He did so in the past and it's just not possible. Galactus himself did it to Ben and the guy reverted back. Ben is the Thing, and even when someone interferes he will be turned to that because that's what he thinks he is and no amount of tampering will undo that.


Bill Foster in Civil War. The Thor Clone killed him.

Thanks for that.


As I said, the FF are all Deus Ex Machina, Reed is just that way the most often. Still, though, I don't remember Reed ever stopping Doom alone.

Yes, yes he is. As you seem to repeat every single time. As for the exact times, just look through the entire history of FF with arcs concerning Doom. You will find that a substantial part of them involves in the end Reed one upping Doom.


So being unable to focus enough to ignore a few gadgets lying around is the mark of intellect? Any kid with ADD is "the smartest character" in Marvel, then. I mean, understanding them is pretty neat, but you know who understands them better? The various people who invented them. I understand AC, but Nikola Tesla is smarter than me because he invented it.

You just don't seem to understand the technology Galactus seems to posess, aeons ahead of anything human race had at the time. Of course he would be interested. Hell, he said himself he could spend a lifetime studying just a fraction of the stuff in there. I can't really grasp what you were trying to say here. Did he use the ultimate nullifier? Yes, and saved the Earth. Did he know what it was in the sea of other inventions? Yes, he did again by simply gazing at the entirety of the ship. Would he have been lost in there like a mindless child if he were to be sent in it to find the thing? Again, yes. He is a "plot device"(again), who is basically infatuated with knowing as much as possible and understanding new things.


That's not true. So many characters have understood Galactus's technology that it's kind of ridiculous. Also keep in mind that a lot of that was stolen from people from other races who created it, and a lot of it was created by Galactus.

Which others? Honestly, I don't know. I know Black Panther used the Nullifier from Reed to threaten the Watched, but that's it.


Do you know numbers? I really would like to see it.

Somewhere in the nineties. Sorry, can't be more specific then that but it was a long time ago.


Magic, I'm okay with. Magic specifically ignores the laws of physics.
Reed's pretense of science is irritating, for one, and for another, doesn't really make him that smart. If he was really smart, he'd learn magic so that he can do in a few words what takes him weeks of building to do, and is just as scientifically grounded as most of his science. Or, like Magneto, actually think about how things work on a scientific scale, and realize that without even using that much magnetism, he could kill everyone alive.

Why can't you understand that he is not interested in magic? It is a "cheap way out" according to him, and the time when he did use it, he used only the stuff that was needed to defeat Doom to save his family. Ignored it ever since. He says himself that he is just "dumb" when it comes to magic because of the things you mentioned, like laws of physics. Just because you don't want a way out with saying Allakhazam, but by making complex schematics of it doesn't mean you an idiot. Just not interested. I could start to learn mandarin, for it would certainly aid me in my life's quest to get a good job since those are few and in between in this world as simultaneous translators of that language. I don't because it doesn't interest me in the slightest to do so.


Toad made a machine capable of transcending dimensions (same as going up to heaven, he just wanted to go to Earth instead). New dimensions are discovered practically once a month in some magazine or another, throughout Marvel, so forgive me if I don't think that's so big an achievement as when Doom created his own Entirely New Universe.

You mentioned Tesla before for his achievements. Many people years later did things that evolved his theories given the evolution of technology and notes they had in hand, some perhaps even remarkable then the things that Tesla did himself. However, Tesla is the one who started it, was the first to do it and because of that will be immortalised. Draw the connection.


This is simply not true. Strange has been just as much of a source of wisdom, and done his job better. When someone asks Reed for an "impossible" task, he does it. He, say, tries to control a godclone with programming that didn't work when they tried to control a non-god robot with it. Doctor Strange says "though it is within the scope of my powers, there are things in which man is not meant to meddle." People went to whoever could solve the problem. If they needed a robot, they probably went to Hank Pym, since that's pretty much what he does. If they needed tactics, they probably lookeed to Captain America before Richards. Emma Frost and Charles Xavier both did perfectly well with their own grey matter (Emma declining to read Reed's mind once, because "there's nothing but ego in there," or something like that), which was capable of Mental tasks that would cause Reed's brain to shut down from overload. Xavier could analyze the DNA of six-billion people at once, keeping track of their locations with only a computer sorting the DNA from satellite analysis for help. Reed Richards needed to write moderately complex probability down on a sheet of paper. Do you know the calculations Magneto has to do in his head to reprogram a Sentinal in seconds. He has to be doing hundreds or thousands of magnetic force equations, even more electrical force and charge equations, and converting them all between one another in his head in a matter of momets, before one of the big things shoots him.

Dr. Strange is the "magic" guy to go to. That makes sense, don't you think? When some elemental menace composed out of arcane power comes at you, he would sort of be the guy you go to. When you get an alien orbital death ray, you won't take it to him. You will take it to Richards, and if he is not there, Hank Pym. Just look at Spider-man's case. He took to Richards basically every piece of technology he couldn't understand or wanted a further analysis on. From the symbiote suit, to the robot parts when he was attacked and so on. If they were not in he would try the Avenger's mansion, so that makes Richards the "science" guy to go to.

[new1965]

I think smartest is impossible to determine when you are going across disciplines.

If you broke it down by field... the list would probably look something like this

best engineer - Tony Stark/ Iron Man
best geneticist - Henry McCoy / Beast
best radiation specialist - Bruce Banner/ The Hulk
best physicist - Reed Richards/ Mr Fantastic
best sorcerer - Dr Stephen Strange

Each of them is tops in their respective fields... but in the others.....

Now.. there the people that cross disciplines
Henry Pym - engineer/ physicists/ biochemist/ artificial intelligence

and thats where you sticky with Reed and Doom

How can classify whose smarter when one may be the number 2/3 guy across a lot of the purely scientific disciplines and the other may also be the number 2/3 guy the same disciplines but is definitely the number 2 sorcerer and uses that to augment his science?

[mad1nz]

Stan lee Nuff' said

[nothingclever]

I'd say Sinister is simply a better genetic expert than Beast since they are both experts in the field and Sinister has been around way longer so he would've accumulated more knowledge if they are actually equally intelligent. They both made great accomplishements but Sinister has augmented his body to the extent that he can instantly change it on a genetic level and he would've cured himself of Beast's feline mutation if he were him and avoided becoming an emo furry.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/nothingclever/NewX-Men_Beast.jpg

Sinister 1 Beast 0

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ok...let's say Doom and Reed are about equal, and Reed wins 'cause he's the good guy. Stark and Pym are up there, but they're pricks. Parker and Banner with the 'best limited scientists' category.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Ignoring cosmics, that sounds reasonable.

[Dalenthas]

I have to wonder, since when does being a prick remove you from being smart?
Tony Stark invented a suit of power armor out of spare weapon parts while in captivity. It's not his "unlimited resources" that make him a genius, its his ability to work around any problem with the proper use of intelligence. We're talking about a guy that developed reactionless thrusters here! He's also a connsumate engineer, meaning that whatever you invent, he can make it better.

And remember guys, the Thor Clone was a cooperative effort between Reed, Tony, and Hank Pym.

So, my take, I'll divide between hero's and villains, as any hero beats a villain simply because the plot requires it:
1. Reed Richards, for reasons other people listed.
2. Tony Stark, for reasons I listed.
3. Hank Pym

1. Dr. Doom
2. The Mandarin
3. Ultron

Alright, I'm noticing a pattern here...

[kpenguin]

Tony is also far more charismatic and a better buisinessman than Reed or Pym. He's a better people person.

[DarkEternal]

Also, I read recently an issue of Spider-man where Norman and Peter fight for the one millionth time and Norman goes on rambling how he spends his time teaching kids instead of developing his super intelligence when Peter responds to him something in the vein. "Me? You are at least twice as intelligent as me and you are going around town in green tights and a goblin mask. You are 55 years old Norman, and if you wanted to, with your mind you could have cured cancer by now."

Never thought Osborn would rank that high up.

[Griemont]

IRON MAN: Geniuses Beating on Geniuses. Issue #1 in stores now!

:smallamused: He does constantly seem to be pitted against either brilliant masterminds or people who themselves have a form of armor, as opposed to thugs and folks like Sandman or the Scorpion that Spidey might face.

[kpenguin]

Spidey also faces some rather brilliant opponents like Doc Ock, Norman Osbourne, and Kingpin.

[TheMeanDM]

Well, he isn't Marvel...but by golly...

Lobo gets my vote!

He engineered a plague that wiped out the entire population of his home planet for a school project. :xykon:

Though, to give him a "knock", it didn't kill his teacher. :biggrin:

[TheMeanDM]

And...to keep it on topic an in universe:

Blackheart gets my vote.

http://www.cannonspike.com/CamFan/capcom/vs-games/mshvsf-blackheart.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackheart

http://www.marveldatabase.com/Blackheart

"Therefore, if he is left unchecked his power could grow to best that of even Thanos."

Nobody said they had to be "human".

[Dalenthas]

IRON MAN: Geniuses Beating on Geniuses. Issue #1 in stores now!

:smallamused: He does constantly seem to be pitted against either brilliant masterminds or people who themselves have a form of armor, as opposed to thugs and folks like Sandman or the Scorpion that Spidey might face.

A good fraction of IM's foes weren't all too bright themselves, but rather backed by brigher people. Titanium Man, for instance, was particularly dense. Ultimo lacks any real higher brain function, as does the Freak. Lets see, other idiots in IM's rogues gallery... fairly recently, the Extremis enhanced seditionist Mallen was pretty dumb.

Plus you'll notice Marvel likes to keep enemies matched against the heros. A lot of Iron Man's villains have armor for the same reason a lot of Spider-Man's villains have animal themes, and for the same reason most of the X-Men's villains are mutants! So yeah, there's a reason IM has a lot of high-tech enemies. Hell, the Mandarin was origionally considered a technological based enemy until some writer thought it'd be cooler to do a Magic-vs-Technology story arc and the Mandarin suddenly decided tech sucks and magic rawks. Considering the latest stories, it appears he's back to tech (bio-tech, specifically).

[....]

IRON MAN: Geniuses Beating on Geniuses. Issue #1 in stores now!

:smallamused: He does constantly seem to be pitted against either brilliant masterminds or people who themselves have a form of armor, as opposed to thugs and folks like Sandman or the Scorpion that Spidey might face.

Thats because Stark is a prig and dosn't have time to fight people like the Shocker, while Spidey is a real hero and dosn't care if its Mysterio or Onslaught, he'll fight them all.

[zeratul]

Dr strange, or any of those crazy galactic dudes who know everything.

[Dalenthas]

Thats because Stark is a prig and dosn't have time to fight people like the Shocker, while Spidey is a real hero and dosn't care if its Mysterio or Onslaught, he'll fight them all.

More likely because a Stark v. Shocker fight would end fairly quickly (ie. less than a page) and be fairly boring. If the writers saw a necessity for IM to fight Mysterio, he would. I'm not sure what a prig is (I'm guessing you meant prick), but that's not the reason he doesn't fight Spidey's villains. Or do you want me to call Spidey a prig for never fighting the Crimson Dynamo or Living Laser?

[Mr. Invisible]

I recently erad a marvel comic called Amzing fantasy, introducing six new characters. One of them was Mastermind Excello, a boy with super-intligence in a "super-calculator" way, the image will explain it better :

http://www.subirimagenes.com/imagenes/previo/thump_1230250AmazingFantasy15-06.jpg (http://www.subirimagenes.com/imagen-de-AmazingFantasy1506-1230250.html)

With that six paged-comic I barely understood something about the character, but seems like I could grow up to be one of the super geniouses of Marvel universe.

Why Charles Xavier dissapeared from the lists???
anti-mutie discrimination??

[Yuki Akuma]

Charles Xavier isn't that smart. He did so well at school because of his ability to read his teachers' minds.

Sure, he's smart, but he's not as smart as, say, Stark. Or Parker, I'd wager.

And yeah, Cho is smart. Although I think his 'super-calculator' power might be a mutant ability, like that kid whose name I forgot who can understand any language ever, even body language.

He was a main character in World War Hulk and was the one who figured out how to repower She-Hulk. So, yeah, quite smart.

[gatitcz]

First off, when did Sue Storm get those four advanced degrees? In her origin, she never even went to college, and since then she's been pretty busy with the FF.

Xavier invented Cerebro and has significant knowledge about genetics and biology. He's a genius outside of telepathy - in my opinion, he didn't do well in school just because he could read the teacher's mind.

Beast cured the Legacy Virus, something no one else had been able to do, though he had a reason to focus on it. I think he's definitely top five.

All of the Illuminati are pretty smart. They're probably all in the top 20, but Richards has always been set up to be #1. The High Evolutionary, Pym, Banner, Parker, McCoy, Forge, and Doom are all up there, too. (I agree that Parker is very intelligent, among the top 20, but Spider-Man kept on getting in the way of his ability to learn more, others may disagree). I can't think of eight more supergeniuses right now, maybe Prodigy, but that's it.

[kpenguin]

What about random unnamed scientists? Do they deserve to be on the list?

I can just imagine how funny it would be if a comic revealed the smartest person on Earth was some random scientist working some desk job who was never energetic enough to act on his genius. Sort of like Mycroft Holmes or something.

[Dihan]

What about Kavita Rao and Moira MacTaggert? They both have genius level intelligence.

[DarkEternal]

First off, when did Sue Storm get those four advanced degrees? In her origin, she never even went to college, and since then she's been pretty busy with the FF.


I will take a wild guess and say it was retconned somewhere around Byrne's run onward who pretty much evolved Sue in every matter conceivable. From that run onward they were making her powers "celestial" in nature, a woman with 4+ doctorates, able to fight Iron Fist in hand to hand combat to a standstill after a few months of training and so on.

[gatitcz]

I will take a wild guess and say it was retconned somewhere around Byrne's run onward who pretty much evolved Sue in every matter conceivable. From that run onward they were making her powers "celestial" in nature, a woman with 4+ doctorates, able to fight Iron Fist in hand to hand combat to a standstill after a few months of training and so on.

But...did they at least show a few weeks of studying? A montage? A flashback? Anything?

Bah. Stupid retcons. But I guess they at least attempt to solve some ridiculously static issues.

[Essex]

More common sense definitely, but he's not on the same level of supergenius that Pym is. Pym invented Pym particles, Ultron (yes, I know that blow up in his face, but that’s really besides the point) and equipment for speaking with ants. Parker invented web shooters and spider tracers. It's really no contests.

I recall a crossover comic involving Spider-Man and Wolverine. Spidey visited Dr. Pym for some help and totally geeked out over Pym's leet science skills. Pym responded by noting that Spidey invented web shooters and trackers that were attuned to his spidey-sense while still a teenager.

In reply to questions about Professor X and the Beast I'd like to note that most of the senior X-Men are fully trained in maintaining advanced alien technology. Of course, being able to fix an existing item (no matter how advanced the technology) doesn't necessarily qualify somebody as super smart.

Limiting the list of 'smart' people to non-godlike super beings located on earth whom I am familiar with and defining 'smart' as being both extraordinarily knowledgeable and capable of great innovation in multiple fields of study then I would have to put the following individuals on such a list:

THE A LIST- Absurdly capable (comic book level) in dozens of fields.

Reed Richards (The man has INVENTED entire branches of science)
Dr. Doom
Mad Thinker
Amadeus Cho

THE B LIST- Either absurdly capable in several fields or cinematically capable (pulp fiction level) in dozens of fields.

Iron Man
Hank McCoy (while not as good a geneticist as Mr. Sinister he is highly accomplished in many fields whereas Sinister excels in only a few).
Henry Pym
Charles Xavier
Mr. Sinister
Magneto
The High Evolutionary
Modok
The Fixer

THE C LIST- Either absurdly capable in a few related fields or highly capable (MacGuyver level) in several fields.

Arnim-Zola
Spider-Man
Dr. Octopus
Bruce Banner

[Finn Solomon]

Where would Forge fit into this?

[kpenguin]

Where would Forge fit into this?

Forge isn't a genius.


Forge can intuitively create almost any device imaginable using his mutant ability - an uncanny and almost empathic ability to understand machines and to perceive "mechanical energy." He has created fantastic futuristic devices including cybernetic systems (to replace his lost hand and leg), sophisticated holograms, and elaborate computer and fiberoptic systems.

Emphasis mine. To be a genius, he would have to consciously create devices.

[new1965]

First off, when did Sue Storm get those four advanced degrees? In her origin, she never even went to college, and since then she's been pretty busy with the FF.

Way back when when i was trying to break into comics, I wrote a story that had a scene where the FF had to repair a device to track and Reed isn't available. It went something like this

Ben: "Awwwww.. crap. its all busted"
Sue: "Well if i had the parts... i may be able to rig something together to track his quantum signature"
Ben and Johnny look as Sue stunned
Sue: "I've got a photographic memory and Reed has the habit of explaining everything and I mean EVERYTHING. The man even explains things in his sleep."

Between Sues knowledge of the theory and Ben and Johnny's experience from doing Reeds heavy lifting and welding, they cobble something together.

Theres was a scene where they rummage through Reed's "junk pile" looking for part and run across a bunch of items that reed has studied and discarded. One of dooms old gauntlets, ultron 7's head, etc...

[Griemont]

More likely because a Stark v. Shocker fight would end fairly quickly (ie. less than a page) and be fairly boring. If the writers saw a necessity for IM to fight Mysterio, he would. I'm not sure what a prig is (I'm guessing you meant prick), but that's not the reason he doesn't fight Spidey's villains. Or do you want me to call Spidey a prig for never fighting the Crimson Dynamo or Living Laser?

QFT. Even besides the point that few thugs or petty criminals could stand a chance against AES, he spends a lot of time traveling from place to place (as far as I know :smallconfused:) while Spidey spends most/all his time in one place so he ends up fighting all the villians in that area regardless of importance. Also, since Stark doesn't seem to spend all of his time nowadays apprehending criminals, what with being S of D and the leader of SHIELD (again, apologies but I haven't read the more recent IM comics :smallfrown:), so he spends his villain-busting time on the big guys.


Oh, and so this isn't completely off topic, Charles Xavier wins, because of the Mind Gem. Excluding the uber-guys like the Living Tribunal, Galactus, and possibly Adam Warlock, of course.

[Drider]

The watchers exclusive point of existance is to watch things and have perception to view alternate worlds, along with galactus, eternity,death, thanos, and all the cosmic deities, they are the smartest, but if you go earth only...
Stark,<-Sue talked about reed being like a "loyal puppy dog, following behind" to stark, and made it clear that the 3 of them thought stark out-smarts reed -> Reed, Doom, Abraham Erskine, Henry Pym, Magneto, Charles Xavier. and that's all i can think of at the moment

[Selrahc]

Limiting the list of 'smart' people to non-godlike super beings located on earth whom I am familiar with and defining 'smart' as being both extraordinarily knowledgeable and capable of great innovation in multiple fields of study then I would have to put the following individuals on such a list:

THE A LIST- Absurdly capable (comic book level) in dozens of fields.

Reed Richards (The man has INVENTED entire branches of science)
Dr. Doom
Mad Thinker
Amadeus Cho

THE B LIST- Either absurdly capable in several fields or cinematically capable (pulp fiction level) in dozens of fields.

Iron Man
Hank McCoy (while not as good a geneticist as Mr. Sinister he is highly accomplished in many fields whereas Sinister excels in only a few).
Henry Pym
Charles Xavier
Mr. Sinister
Magneto
The High Evolutionary
Modok
The Fixer

THE C LIST- Either absurdly capable in a few related fields or highly capable (MacGuyver level) in several fields.

Arnim-Zola
Spider-Man
Dr. Octopus
Bruce Banner


Good list. Black Panther, Ultron, Kang the Conqueror and Brainchild should go on the B list. Loads more C listers could be added. (The Mandarin. Kitty Pryde. Sue Richards. Black Bolt. Namor. Radioactive Man. Zemo. Red Skull. Vision. Thena.) In fact theres probably so many C listers that they'd be better off with just an etc.

[DarkEternal]

The watchers exclusive point of existance is to watch things and have perception to view alternate worlds, along with galactus, eternity,death, thanos, and all the cosmic deities, they are the smartest, but if you go earth only...
Stark,<-Sue talked about reed being like a "loyal puppy dog, following behind" to stark, and made it clear that the 3 of them thought stark out-smarts reed -> Reed, Doom, Abraham Erskine, Henry Pym, Magneto, Charles Xavier. and that's all i can think of at the moment

Yeah, but that is one example. I have read many other where everyone says that in some club that the "big" brains had in college, some "knights" of something or other that Reed was thought to be the leader in terms of gray matter. One more reason why Doom started to hate him even more in that period. Though I can see Reed following Stark if for anything then to help him get in coeds pants every now and then.

[CharlieSmiles]

If you go by the marvel encyclopedia the people ranked below omniscient at super genius are: Reed Richards, Hank Pym, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Mr. Sinister, High Evolutionary, Dr. Doom and a few others I can't remember. Spiderman is only at gifted on the scale , not even genius.

[reddfox321]

Mine:

1 Richard Reed (too far into his projects, book smart. pure science)
2 Doctor Doom (maniacal/diabolical smart. science/magic)
3 Hank Pym (mini reed)
4 Xavier (telepath. psychology smart)
5 T'Challa (a lot of people forget he beat the fantastic four by himself in his debut. sort of a mini doom. science/gadget/magic)
6 Tony Stark (science/gadget)

[Ethrael]

Are we including gods here? Cos then this would be kinda confusing...:smallconfused:

Anyway, I'm gonna have to go with reed richards, he managed to extend his brain so that he though unbelievably quickly and beat Iron Man in WW Hulk didn't he? Also, I just remembered David Alleyene, shouldn't he be pretty clever too?

[Satyrquaze]

If we're including Galen/Galactus I have two more entries for you:

Eon and Epoch.

[Parlik]

Hmm surprised though that people leaves out Forge, given the fact of some of the things he have build in the past, as well how quickly.

Granted building things is his mutation so to speak.

[Ziggy's_Roady]

Well, Reed has been Named Smartest Human on Earth before...

Strange is the best in the field of Magic.

Doom is behind both of them in both catigories.

Pym (AKA Ant Man) is fairly intelligent, but I dunno where he would go.

Stark is a technilogical genius, but not too bright.

Parker is pretty smart is both catigories...

Where Magnito and Xavier stand, they are higher than Stark..

[Satyrquaze]

Black Panther would need to be in the top 5.

[CZR3PKA]

Reed Richards (Mr. Fantastic) is easily the smartest character in Marvel comics. Plus, not only is he the smartest, I truly believe that when he uses his powers to the utmost extreme, he can be one of the stronger charcters as well.

[Avilan the Grey]

I think it is impossible to rate the highest ones between eachother (Richards, Doom, Stark, and maybe Pym and Doc Ock). They are so close that it depends entirely on the writer in the particular story.

I do enjoy the stories where it is recognized that everyone is specialists in different fields; I remember the FF story where they had to contact Doc Ock to get his help with the baby (that Susan eventually lost anyway :smallfrown:) since Richards admitted he was not the top scientist in that field.

I am one of those that would put Parker in the Runner-ups. He is smart enough to notice mistakes made by brilliant minds (I seem to remember an instance where he spots a fault in one of Reeds equations, for example, at a crucial time). His problem is that he is / was poor enough to not get a top notch education.

As for Stark making fun of his costume; of course! If Spidey had the budget, and need, for a mechanical super suit, then fine; it's not like Spidey's suit is any less advanced than Reed Richard's...

[AstralFire]

Reading through a few pages of this reminds me why I don't like comic book supergeniuses. Reed Richards and Doom both give me a headache.

[Avilan the Grey]

Reading through a few pages of this reminds me why I don't like comic book supergeniuses. Reed Richards and Doom both give me a headache.

Although Reed will forever own everyone else with his quote about marrying the hottest girl in school and all that :smallbiggrin:

[AstralFire]

What, the one from the second (horrendously cheesy, yet enjoyable) movie? Was a good line, but felt more appropriate coming from Peter Parker.

#*()(#* THAT'S HOW MESSED UP MARVEL MOVIES ARE. TONY STARK AND REED RICHARDS ARE FUNNIER THAN SPIDER-MAN. MY GOD.

[Dr.Epic]

Deadpool's the smartest. He's the only one who realizes he's in a comic.

[comicshorse]

Posted by AstralFire

What, the one from the second (horrendously cheesy, yet enjoyable) movie? Was a good line, but felt more appropriate coming from Peter Parker.


I think he's refering to the bit in the Ultimate Galactus storyline

Nick Fury is trying to bully Reed into comprimising his ethics
NICK: " It's like playing football. You have to make sacrifices for the team. You played football, right ?"
REED: " No Colonel I studied science like a good nerd should. That's why I'm dating the hottest woman in the world and jocks come and beg me for help"
Long silence, Fury backs off

[AstralFire]

He uses nearly the same line in that movie.

[comicshorse]

Ah, never saw the second movie

[Avilan the Grey]

Ah, never saw the second movie

(I think it was in the first one, actually?)

Sidetrack: Bill Maher used a similar joke on one of his "New Rules" about the "Find your highscool friends" net ads: "I already know what the jock in my class do these days, he is mowing my lawn!"

[Optimystik]

Deadpool's the smartest. He's the only one who realizes he's in a comic.

That's more along the lines of that whole "thin boundary between insanity and genius" thing.

Anyway, I'm voting Strange. Any schlub can pick up a science book - let's see Reed try learn all the mystic secrets of Shub-Noggoth or whichever Chthulian entity Strange is playing poker with these days.

[paddyfool]

Whatever list you come up with, Amadeus Cho should definitely come 7th. (To my mind, he's one of the better-written smart characters so far).

[kpenguin]

Gah. Necromancied thread is necromancied. I think this is from before we merged Comic Books into Media Discussions, even.

[tomandtish]

If you go by the marvel encyclopedia the people ranked below omniscient at super genius are: Reed Richards, Hank Pym, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Mr. Sinister, High Evolutionary, Dr. Doom and a few others I can't remember. Spiderman is only at gifted on the scale , not even genius.

Don't know about the encyclopedia, but Marvel Universe...

http://marvel.com/universe/Doctor_Strange_(Stephen_Strange) (http://http://marvel.com/universe/Doctor_Strange_(Stephen_Strange))

offers offical rankings as well as fan rankings. Of the ones I've looked at (highest to lowest on a 7 point scale)

Professor X - 7
Doom/Richards/Stark/Banner - 6
Hank Pym - 5
Parker/Strange - 4

For comparison:
Black Cat - 2 (presumably average)
Rhino - 1 (Presumably below average)

Note: I'm not clear on how "official" an official ranking is, so as always, take with as many grains of salt as you like. I have sent them an e-mail, so I'll see what answer I get.

[Stephanie04]

is Batman - Marvel ? :P well for me he's the smartest of all heroes

but Marvel - Xavier is

[The Glyphstone]

Gah. Necromancied thread is necromancied. I think this is from before we merged Comic Books into Media Discussions, even.

Would it be more appropriate to say someone gave the thread a Black Lantern ring?

[Elfey]

Could you imagine if all of these guys, as part of the initiative storyline, were told, instead of showing up in costume, to go put on a lab coat and put in some time together in a giant laboratory complex?

They could probably solve world hunger in a week.

I hate linking to it but, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless