3.5: 1/Day PAO

[rmnimoc]

Just how much is a 1/day PAO worth?

One of the players in the campaign I'm getting ready to run loves picking a single silly thing and running with it. He's been a bard without spells, a sorcerer who only casts cold spells, and a druid who tries to be a member of the Animorphs(didn't do any spell casting there either). He's not like some players I have who do stupid builds because he misread the rules and thought he could cheese his way to being a god or something, he's a pretty benign player and one of the only people at my table that hasn't taken a book to the face. Because of that, I'm willing to be flexible and do a bit more work to accommodate what he feels like playing, even if it's almost always more work for me in the end.

He recently found out about PAO and instantly fell in love. We're about to start a gestalt campaign and he asked me if there was any way he could get PAO earlier than level 15. I told him I'd think about it. He doesn't care for being a wizard so his tentative plan so far is Druid/Wizard doing nothing but wildshaping for the first 15 levels until he gets PAO, then start to PAO animals into people and try to integrate them into society. I've contemplated a few ideas, the best seems to be a few LA on one side of the gestalt, but I'm not really sure how much that should be worth.

Are there any monsters with a 1/day PAO and if not what sort of level adjustment do you think PAO 1/day should be worth?

[Nifft]

PAO is overkill for integrating animals into society.

He just needs Awaken, which he'll have.

He can also integrate trees into society.

[noob]

What is better is to integrate rocks in the society with PAO.

[rmnimoc]

He decided on the concept of the druid turning animals into people after I told him he couldn't use PAO as wildshape because the polymorphed gets the int of the new form, and his concept is more PAO than just awakening animals.

[Nifft]

I dunno.

He's basically asking for a planet-cutting omni-laser and a suit of flying invulnerable omni-armor so he can write a dirty limerick on the backside of the moon. Sure, the current goal sounds harmless, but after he's done with the silly limerick thing he still has the planet-cutting omni-laser.

PAO is a big gun. A really, really big gun which can trivialize encounters and make permanent changes to the setting very easily.

IMHO you should tell him to be creative with low-level spells, just like he's been creative in the past.

He's already got all the tools of two of the most powerful classes in the game.

Can't he research a low-level spell which does exactly what he wants and nothing more? Then you can price that spell / ritual / whatever as lower than 8th level because it's not bundled with all the PAO power.

[Myou]

I dunno.

He's basically asking for a planet-cutting omni-laser and a suit of flying invulnerable omni-armor so he can write a dirty limerick on the backside of the moon. Sure, the current goal sounds harmless, but after he's done with the silly limerick thing he still has the planet-cutting omni-laser.

PAO is a big gun. A really, really big gun which can trivialize encounters and make permanent changes to the setting very easily.

IMHO you should tell him to be creative with low-level spells, just like he's been creative in the past.

He's already got all the tools of two of the most powerful classes in the game.

Can't he research a low-level spell which does exactly what he wants and nothing more? Then you can price that spell / ritual / whatever as lower than 8th level because it's not bundled with all the PAO power.


Very much what Nifft says.
I also question why the player wants to do this. I don't see why animals would want to be permanently transformed into humans, why they would want to join human society or why other humans would want them to. It would also create a lot of problems for whatever setting is being used, and sounds almost certain to totally derail whatever other plotlines the other players are trying to pursue.

[Yuki Akuma]

"Turn all animals into humans" honestly sounds like the sort of quest that would cause a Druid to Fall.

And Druids don't usually Fall.

[noob]

I always use planet cutting ultra lasers for everything in a gish campaign.
You did read the MP.
It is a gish campaign so players are supposed to have total omnipotence.
(If you do not want your players to be uber omnipotent then you should not do a gish campaign)

[ericgrau]

PAO can be loads of fun if not abused and it sounds like he's not going to abuse it. One thing he might be looking to do that you should disallow is stacking two castings of PAO to make the effect permanent. But he can still permanently turn animals into humanoids as long as he matches the size category.

Anyway, below is a quick LA 2 template I thought up. Increase to LA 3 on a non full caster. If you delay all the spells by 3 HD, reduce to LA 1. Except in that case delay wood shape and warp wood by only 1 HD. Note that the ECL for all of the below is 2 higher due to LA. I would not let him take the LA on only one side of the gestalt.


Worldshaper:
Through chaotic magic that shaped you at birth, you have a phenomenal ability to reshape the natural world around you to your will. The exact details of this event are up to your character's backstory.

Gain the following spells based on your HD:
1-2: Polymorph 1/day, Wood shape and warp wood with a combined total of 3/day
3-4: Baleful polymorph 1/day
5-6: Animate Objects 1/day (objects made from wood, cloth, leather or other organic materials only)
7-8: Transmute Metal to Wood 1/day
9-10: Polymorph Any Object 1/day
11-12: Mass Awaken 1/day
13-14: Wish 1/day*
15-16: Increase HD 1-12 abilities to 2/day, wood shape and warp wood to a total of 4/day
17-18: Increase HD 11-14 abilities to 2/day
* Pay normal xp costs and material components (if any). Only allows effects that alter organic creatures or materials around you in some way that still leaves the organic creatures or materials as organic creatures or materials. Though they may become different creatures or materials.

You retain all abilities gained from having fewer HD than what you have. Your caster level is equal to your HD plus 6. The save DC is based on your wisdom.

If detect magic is cast on a Worldshaper, overwhelming transmutation is detected.


So yes he has motherfriggin' polymorph at ECL 3, but only once a day and all his other spellcasting is poor until ECL 7. LA blows chunks on spellcasters. And I made it LA 3 for non full casters. Again I'm going to assume he won't use any broken forms and you should hold him to that. PAO comes online at ECL 11.

Re-adjust the spell list as desired of course. I left the fluff pretty open too. Another option instead of Baleful Polymorph might be Awaken.

[Telonius]

PAO is a big gun, but wouldn't he still be limited by his own HD at lower levels? It would be one thing if he's changing a puppy into a Dragon at level 1, but he'd be limited to 1hd per the Polymorph rules: "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level."

[Oberon Kenobi]

If it's an SLA (or a once-a-day magic item or whevs) it can just have a set caster level and consequently set HD anyway. Though I do agree that it's a big gun for the stated goal–and moreover, you're going to have a lot of trouble accomplishing the goal with PAO, since it's gonna take a good two castings for the change to be permanent.

As for turning animals into human(oid)s causing Druids to 'fall':
1) Awaken is on the Druid spell list.
2) Animals adopting and gettin' along with one another (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAGzY9rnaA) is a totes natural phenomenon. No reason to leave human(oid)s outta the loop on that one.

[Cruiser1]

Just how much is a 1/day PAO worth?
Two class levels (in the Heir of Siberys PrC from ECS). A Siberys Dragonmark gives you a 1/day spell like ability, that's often an 8th level spell. For example, Heir of Siberys level 2 can give you your choice of 1/day Moment of Prescience, Mind Blank, or Prismatic Wall.

[torrasque666]

Two class levels (in the Heir of Siberys PrC from ECS). A Siberys Dragonmark gives you a 1/day spell like ability, that's often an 8th level spell. For example, Heir of Siberys level 2 can give you your choice of 1/day Moment of Prescience, Mind Blank, or Prismatic Wall.

Yes, but Heir of Sybris relies on a mechanic unique to Eberron and useless outside of the setting. And it's not really as much of a choice as you put it. Moment of Prescience is only available to half elves of the specific House. Same with Prismatic Wall and dwarves, and Mind Blank and humans

[ericgrau]

moreover, you're going to have a lot of trouble accomplishing the goal with PAO, since it's gonna take a good two castings for the change to be permanent.
Same kingdom +5, same class (mammal) +2, same size (medium or small) +2 = +9
+9 => permanent

Also I think stacking two castings of PAO is where a lot of the abuse comes from, and it's questionably legal.

[Oberon Kenobi]

Somehow I always overlook the "same size" bonus; good catch! Regardless, I think you'd still need 2 castings in most cases; there are plenty of animals that are neither small nor medium (nor close enough to humanoid to get the 'related' bonus).

[rmnimoc]

PAO can be loads of fun if not abused and it sounds like he's not going to abuse it. One thing he might be looking to do that you should disallow is stacking two castings of PAO to make the effect permanent. But he can still permanently turn animals into humanoids as long as he matches the size category.

Anyway, below is a quick LA 2 template I thought up. Increase to LA 3 on a non full caster. If you delay all the spells by 3 HD, reduce to LA 1. Except in that case delay wood shape and warp wood by only 1 HD. Note that the ECL for all of the below is 2 higher due to LA. I would not let him take the LA on only one side of the gestalt.


Worldshaper:
Through chaotic magic that shaped you at birth, you have a phenomenal ability to reshape the natural world around you to your will. The exact details of this event are up to your character's backstory.

Gain the following spells based on your HD:
1-2: Polymorph 1/day, Wood shape and warp wood with a combined total of 3/day
3-4: Baleful polymorph 1/day
5-6: Animate Objects 1/day (objects made from wood, cloth, leather or other organic materials only)
7-8: Transmute Metal to Wood 1/day
9-10: Polymorph Any Object 1/day
11-12: Mass Awaken 1/day
13-14: Wish 1/day*
15-16: Increase HD 1-12 abilities to 2/day, wood shape and warp wood to a total of 4/day
17-18: Increase HD 11-14 abilities to 2/day
* Pay normal xp costs and material components (if any). Only allows effects that alter organic creatures or materials around you in some way that still leaves the organic creatures or materials as organic creatures or materials. Though they may become different creatures or materials.

You retain all abilities gained from having fewer HD than what you have. Your caster level is equal to your HD plus 2. The save DC is based on your wisdom.

If detect magic is cast on a Worldshaper, overwhelming transmutation is detected.


So yes he has motherfriggin' polymorph at ECL 3, but only once a day and all his other spellcasting is poor until ECL 7. LA blows chunks on spellcasters. And I made it LA 3 for non full casters. Again I'm going to assume he won't use any broken forms and you should hold him to that. PAO comes online at ECL 11.

Re-adjust the spell list as desired of course. I left the fluff pretty open too. Another option instead of Baleful Polymorph might be Awaken.


Two class levels (in the Heir of Siberys PrC from ECS). A Siberys Dragonmark gives you a 1/day spell like ability, that's often an 8th level spell. For example, Heir of Siberys level 2 can give you your choice of 1/day Moment of Prescience, Mind Blank, or Prismatic Wall.

Thanks guys. That worldshaper template seems pretty cool I'll run it by him later today, and even if he says no I can make a prestige class that tosses 1/day pao after two levels.

As to everyone saying that he'll wreck the campaign, I'm not too worried about that. Worst case scenario, he comes down with a bad case of death and has to come up with a new character.

[Cerefel]

Somehow I always overlook the "same size" bonus; good catch! Regardless, I think you'd still need 2 castings in most cases; there are plenty of animals that are neither small nor medium (nor close enough to humanoid to get the 'related' bonus).

While double casting for a permanent duration is questionable, it is entirely rules legal to use an in-between step. For example, a human could PAO into something like a lizardfolk permanently, and then as a lizardfolk can be turned into a sarrukh permanently (Same kingdom: humanoid +5, same size: medium +2, related: creator-creation +2)

[Jack_Simth]

How powerful is it?

By magic item creation price estimation section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues) (note: not rules!), as a command-word item, it would be worth

1800 (command word) * 8 (Spell level) * 15 (Caster level) / (5/1) (1 charge/day) = 43,200 gp.

That would permit him to turn one medium mammal into a human Permanently 1/day (Kingdom = Animal, Class = Mammal, Size=Medium). Note also that it's useless for direct offence, as the fort save DC is 10 (base) + 8 (Spell level) + 4 (minimum ability score of 18) = 22.

Wealth-by-level guidelines say it's theoretically affordable at 10th (WBL = 49,000 gp, so that one item is about 88% of it), reasonable at 12th or so (WBL = 88,000, so that 43,200 is about 49% of it).

[ericgrau]

Somehow I always overlook the "same size" bonus; good catch! Regardless, I think you'd still need 2 castings in most cases; there are plenty of animals that are neither small nor medium (nor close enough to humanoid to get the 'related' bonus).
The animals merely need to be mammals. I didn't use the related bonus.

I put in the wrong caster level on the Worldshaper template by mistake. I fixed it to HD+6 now to get the typical minimum level to cast the spells. Though I suppose you could use a reduced caster level if you wanted to tone back the power.

[Oberon Kenobi]

The animals merely need to be mammals. I didn't use the related bonus.I'm aware; I was saying that you could substitute in the related bonus if you don't have the same-size bonus, e.g. if you wanted to turn a tiny or large primate into a human. Since you need either one or the other to get a lineup of traits that puts you in permanent territory.

[Felyndiira]

For another point of reference: PAO is a 8th level spell.

The only difference between the greater pixie and the normal pixie is 1/day Irresistable Dance, an 8th level spell (ignoring the bard list). This bumped the greater pixie to +6 LA instead of +4.

Thus, a 1/day PAO as a spell like ability is worth 2 class levels.

Of course, PAO is also more versatile than Irresistable Dance, though that should be the approximate scale of reference.

[Sagetim]

How powerful is it?

By magic item creation price estimation section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues) (note: not rules!), as a command-word item, it would be worth

1800 (command word) * 8 (Spell level) * 15 (Caster level) / (5/1) (1 charge/day) = 43,200 gp.

That would permit him to turn one medium mammal into a human Permanently 1/day (Kingdom = Animal, Class = Mammal, Size=Medium). Note also that it's useless for direct offence, as the fort save DC is 10 (base) + 8 (Spell level) + 4 (minimum ability score of 18) = 22.

Wealth-by-level guidelines say it's theoretically affordable at 10th (WBL = 49,000 gp, so that one item is about 88% of it), reasonable at 12th or so (WBL = 88,000, so that 43,200 is about 49% of it).

I was going to mention, basically this. Jack beat me to it, so I'll comment on how else an item of such value could come into the player's possession: As a quest reward. With a standard party size of 4, it could be an early, high end quest reward for the entire party (counting towards about 10k each of the player's wealth by level).

Alternatively, you could have it be a deity granted item for the character to enact the will of a god with. Converting animals into people and integrating them into society could be it's dedicated purpose...oh, well, there we go- intelligent magic item. As an intelligent magic item, it doesn't have to roll over and let someone holding it do whatever they want with it's power. As a Greater Power, it could be restricted in it's use to following the mandate of the item's dedicated purpose, locking out the PAO from anything other than turning animals into people. At which point it doesn't really matter how expensive it is, you could hand it to the players at level one and they wouldn't be able to abuse it.

[Nifft]

Thanks guys. That worldshaper template seems pretty cool I'll run it by him later today, and even if he says no I can make a prestige class that tosses 1/day pao after two levels.

As to everyone saying that he'll wreck the campaign, I'm not too worried about that. Worst case scenario, he comes down with a bad case of death and has to come up with a new character.

If you're using Heir of Siberrys as a model, you should be aware that it has a prereq:

Skills: 15 ranks in any two skills.

... so it's not a PrC that you can enter at level 6.

High-level spells pretty consistently restricted to high-level characters.

[Bronk]

While double casting for a permanent duration is questionable, it is entirely rules legal to use an in-between step. For example, a human could PAO into something like a lizardfolk permanently, and then as a lizardfolk can be turned into a sarrukh permanently (Same kingdom: humanoid +5, same size: medium +2, related: creator-creation +2)

Any form of double casting PAO is questionable, even if the second casting is to something different, because the spell keys off the 'original' form.

Permanently changing something into a radically different form would be equivalent to the additional safe 'wish' from Savage Species.