Near Impossible Optimization Challenge

[BowStreetRunner]

The standard Players' Handbook method of determining your character's attributes is "rolling four six-sided dice, ignoring the lowest die roll, and totaling the other three." While we know that mathematically this results in slightly better results when compared to just rolling 3d6, there is still going to be a possibility of getting all low scores. Fortunately p8 of the Players' Handbook offers relief if you roll abysmally, stating that you can re-roll "if the sum of your modifiers (before adjustments because of race) is 0 or lower, or if your highest score is 13 or lower." But let us just assume for the sake of this entirely hypothetical challenge that our imaginary player has entered a game in which even if your original result entitles you to a re-roll you are only allowed a single re-roll. The player sacrifices his entry fee if he does not play with the results of the second roll and he is determined to play on regardless of how low is scores actually turn out. And just to make this challenge as brutally difficult as possible let us further assume that our imaginary player has defied the infinitesimally small odds of doing so and rolled all 1's.

Make the most optimized character you can (20-level build) with all attributes before racial adjustments as 3s. (If applying a template requires a re-roll of any ability score - such as incarnate construct - this roll should also be assumed to be the lowest value possible.)

Primarily looking or 3.5 material, but if you want to throw something else out there just make it clear that it is Pathfinder or whatever else. Also, if you post something that is from Dragon Magazine or some other source outside the usual 3.5 source-books, please indicate the source.

[AvatarVecna]

Warlock based on Eldritch Blast. Use all invocations to upgrade EB. Kaboom all your problems into smithereens.

[emeraldstreak]

Kaboom all your problems into smithereens.

That's really the Warlock's view on everything.

[AvatarVecna]

That's really the Warlock's view on everything.

Some warlocks don't use EB for anything, because they're trying to buck the trend and be good at something else. Some warlocks don't have that luxury, because they're stats are in the crapper. Like this guy.

[Nifft]

Dragonfire Adept is also possible.

Ability Focus (Breath Weapon), and every possible stat point and bonus item going to boost Constitution, because you need that to live and it's your primary casting stat... and unlike a Warlock, the DFA has d8 HD, so even the initial 3 Con doesn't consign her to single-HP status.

[Lerondiel]

Make the most optimized character you can (20-level build) with all attributes before racial adjustments as 3s.


Racial adjustments have to be the key....Intelligence 3, Con 3 is roadkill.

Half-Celestial's got to be a solid template for getting two steps away from the morgue. Anyone know the best ability-bang for your LA-buck templates?

[AvatarVecna]

Paragon template. No listed change to LA, so it's free!

[Brova]

Magic items don't care what your stats are. Go buy a Candle of Invocation, gate in an Efreet, and wish for magic items that do whatever you need done.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I might suggest a binder as failing the checks to bind only incur an RP cost, or a small penalty if they fail to do that. Go with the RP cost it is more fun at times.

Some things they will be pretty bad at but they still have a number of options. minor debuffs, scout, bad skill monkey. Just by leveling up your effectiveness at many things will increase and you will get access to more options. Binder doesn't really need any stats, though it might help to try and lower the penalties through some racial/template shenanigans.

[Extra Anchovies]

Warlock based on Eldritch Blast. Use all invocations to upgrade EB. Kaboom all your problems into smithereens.

Be sure to pick up Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) so you have something to keep enemies away from your squishy little body.

[nedz]

Select your race to be one of these :- Cyclops (Feral-Kind), Elf (Aquatic, Painted, Wild, Wood), Half-Orc (base, Aquatic, Arctic, Desert, Jungle, Scab-Lands, Water), Kobold (Jungle), Mongrelfolk, Neanderthal, Norker, Orc (base, Aquatic, Arctic, Desert, Jungle, Water) or Shifter (base, Saurian)
Note that these have a -2 Int mod.
Note also that you have to have 3 Int to play the character
Re-roll your stats

[Telonius]

I'm thinking:

Changeling (later turn into Necropolitan to make Con3 not matter)
Factotum1 (Able Learner)/Artificer, with an Item Familiar.

[Curmudgeon]

Note that these have a -2 Int mod.
Note also that you have to have 3 Int to play the character
Re-roll your stats

It doesn't work that way. Instead, you automatically get a 3 INT.
ABILITY ADJUSTMENTS
Find your character’s race on Table 2–1: Racial Ability Adjustments (see the next page) and apply the adjustments you see there to your character’s ability scores. If these changes put your score above 18 or below 3, that’s okay, except in the case of Intelligence, which does not go below 3 for characters. (If your half-orc character would have an adjusted Intelligence of 1 or 2, make it 3 instead.)
I would actually recommend choosing a race with an INT penalty to get a "free" boost in whatever other stats are in the racial mix.

[Vhaidara]

Druid. Animal companion carries you through early game, then you hit and your stats don't matter. Master of many forms is also viable here, since you'll never really be able to cast anyways.

[Blackhawk748]

Dragonborn Mineral Warrior Duskling Dragonfire Adept. Youll have an 11 Con and a 5 Str, your other stats will still be garbage but the Nat armor from the templates should keep your AC above 10.

Duskling makes you a Fey so your abysmal Will save is at least somewhat mitigated in the early levels. What this really gets you is Wings, decent Con, and a no roll Attack. So use that Invocation you were gonna use for Flight to get something else handy.

[Curmudgeon]

I think the best choice for race has to be Gully Dwarf (Dragonlance Campaign Setting, page 16): +2 DEX, +2 CON, -4 INT, -4 CHA.
If you are randomly generating your character's ability scores, an ability score reduced to 2 or less by racial modifiers is instead given a value of 3. So that's a "free" boost to 5 in a couple of abilities.

I'd recommend Warlock also. Boosting DEX to 5, and Small size, means the ranged touch attack for Eldritch Blast isn't quite as horrible as it might be. The boost to CON means the character will start with 3 HP. You can take Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) to get a guardian Animal.

[Kurald Galain]

It doesn't work that way. Instead, you automatically get a 3 INT.

It does work for other stats though. The aforementioned gully dwarf should end up with a negative charisma.

[Blackhawk748]

It does work for other stats though. The aforementioned gully dwarf should end up with a negative charisma.

Well it would if it wasnt for that specific rule from their book.

[OldTrees1]

Int 3 + 5(every 4 HD) + 6(Headband of Int) + 5(Tome of Intellect) = 19 Int
The same can be done for any 1 score at 20th level.

So at 20th level we can have a full fledged Tier 1 caster(say a Spell to Power assisted Psion) with minimal DCs. All you have to do is survive to 20th level (actually only need 15th WBL or so) and rebuild then (via thought bottle/psionic rebuilding).

[nedz]

Int 3 + 5(every 4 HD) + 6(Headband of Int) + 5(Tome of Intellect) = 19 Int
The same can be done for any 1 score at 20th level.

So at 20th level we can have a full fledged Tier 1 caster(say a Spell to Power assisted Psion) with minimal DCs. All you have to do is survive to 20th level (actually only need 15th WBL or so) and rebuild then (via thought bottle/psionic rebuilding).

But he won't be able to cast spells until his Int is 10+, which will take quite a few levels.

There is another option:

Play the character as rolled
Keep doing unwise or stupid things (Perfectly in character)
Die
Re-roll

[OldTrees1]

But he won't be able to cast spells until his Int is 10+, which will take quite a few levels.

My post said:
1) At 20th(as early as 15th) you can do this
2) You can rebuild your character via known tricks(mentioning 2 of note)
3) Therefore all you need is any all 3s build that can survive to 15th. They can all become a 19 Int Tier 1 character.

[Curmudgeon]

We can have some fun with templates. Start with the PH Elf race (+2 DEX, -2 CON). Add, in order, Wild, Unseelie Fey, Dustform, and Incarnate Construct (total of LA +0).
Wild: +2 STR, -2 INT, -2 CHA. (Result: STR 5, DEX 5, CON 1, INT 1, WIS 3, CHA 1)
Unseelie Fey: STR -2, DEX +2, CON -2, CHA +2 (Result: STR 3, DEX 7, CON -1, INT 1, WIS 3, CHA 3)
Dustform: STR +4, DEX -2, CON & INT non-abilities. (Result: STR 7, DEX 5, CON —, INT —, WIS 3, CHA 3)
Incarnate Construct: Any score below 3 is set to 3, and nonabilities are rolled. (Result, assuming averages: STR 7, DEX 5, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 3, CHA 3)

There's nothing in the template instructions (Monster Manual, pages 291-293) which specifies minimums for ability scores.

Unseelie Fey grants wings (assuming the usual choice rather than random rolling), adding a fly speed at 2x land speed, which is 35' because of the Wild +5' bonus. Incarnate Construct wipes out all special attacks and special qualities (so Unseelie Fey Iron Vulnerability is removed), but retains the base creature's fly speed so that's still there at 70'.

After all this LA +0 stuff, acquiring Lolth-Touched (+6 STR, +6 CON) and buying off that LA +1 at class level 3 would be helpful.

STR 13
DEX 5
CON 18
INT 12
WIS 3
CHA 3
Speed: land 30', fly 70'
Favored Class: Fighter

With these numbers, a Warblade focusing on Diamond Mind maneuvers (Concentration checks substitute for saves and damage rolls) would be viable.

[Shoat]

Magic items don't care what your stats are. Go buy a Candle of Invocation, gate in an Efreet, and wish for magic items that do whatever you need done.

That answer doesn't work here (or anywhere, really).
The challenge is to make a character that can be played. One that can survive despite all stats being 3. You're not going to survive long enough to get 8000+g and just "Go buy a Candle of Invocation" all willy-nilly.







Apart from the whole issues of real campaigns not letting you assume "by level X I have this much money at least" or "If I have this much money, I am guaranteed to be able to buy this exact magic item". And let's not even start on trying to make an efreet agree to grant a low level character a wish, you cannot control it via HD and you have nothing worthwhile to offer for a trade.

[Maxrim]

Tog-na was born to a family of Orcs. He was born weaker, stiffer, more fragile, less intelligent, less wise, and downright uglier than all of his siblings and other peers. He was IMPRESSIVELY bad. At everything. It didn't take him long to be exiled from his home tribe.
(Orc)
Tog-na wandered for a time, before finding a temple of Bahamut. They took him in, and struggled to teach him the basics of language. After a time, they managed to interpret that he wanted to join Bahamut's forces as a Dragonborn. They were, of course, unsure, because he was so vastly unimpressive. But at his near-mindless insistence, they relented. It was at this point that the amazing series of coincidences that have made Tog-na who he is today began. Interrupting the ritual was a Minotaur worshipper of Tiamat. He interfered not enough to prevent the transformation, but enough to taint it. He was subdued by the priests of Bahamut, but not before his presence had altered and injured Tog-na, and killed the high priest.
(Dragonborn, then Half-Minotaur, +1 LA)
Tog-na lost a limb in the transformation, and the only priest there capable of regeneration was the now-dead high priest. In desperation, the priests took him to the cooky old wizard across town. The wizard agreed to fix him up free of charge, seeing as how he wanted to test something out. Reluctantly, the priests agreed. The wizard strapped down Tog-na and grafted an iron arm to his body. The experience was so painful, so traumatic, that it destroyed a piece of who Tog-na was.
(Half-Golem [Iron], failing the will save, still +1)
The priests, on getting him back, had to restrain him to protect themselves. They mourned the loss of who had become their friend, and prayed to Bahamut for a fix. Funny enough, Bahamut heard them, and took a moment to heal Tog-na's mind and soul)
(Incarnate Construct, -1 LA)
Tog-na, now cured, decided to explore for a time, maybe find his parents, show them how strong he'd become. They weren't what he found, though. He found a minor deity of the Earth, who, impressed with Tog-na's strength, gave him a boon.
(Mineral Warrior, LA 0)
The deity taught Tog-na that he had to fight to survive, and taught him to let his rage out in battle, to hunt in the underdark, and to live.
(Barbarian 1)

At this point, Tog-na is a 1st level character. Assuming a roll of 12 on the Con roll that he got when he got his Con score back with Incarnate Construct, his scores are 35, 3, 16, 3, 3, 3. He has +12 Natural Armor, DR 8/Adamantine and 25/+2, Darkvision 60ft, +2 search, spot, and listen, a gore attack for 1d8, Earth Strike 1/day for +3 to hit and +1 damage, Rage 1/day, and saves of +5, -4, -4, the Track and Endurance feats, with +1 BAB. He's large sized, with 15 hp, and of the Giant (Earth, Dragonblood) type.

As Tog-na advances, he'll multiclass somewhat into Ranger after coincidentally enough being harassed by evil cultists who DCFS his feats away, only to be saved by his good friends, the Priests of Bahamut, who give him his Endurance feat back, and replace what was Track with Steadfast Determination. After a 1 level dip into ranger, he'll dip two levels into Monk of the Overwhelming Attack, and then progress down one of two paths. He'll either join up with the Priests of Bahamut and take levels 5+ in Crusader, or he'll strike out on his own, taking the second Barbarian level, two Fighter levels, then becoming a Frenzied Berserker.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Quorbred primordial half-giant StP erudite or psion, LA +3, +8 intelligence. Yes, your early levels are hell, but you can start manifesting (vigor, share pain) straight away, and you can buy off the LA before 20. Grab Toughness as your first-level feat, and with two flaws if you like, to take your hp total up to 10, or improve your fortitude save and (effective) health total with Endurance, Diehard, and Steadfast Determination. Psychic reformation will get rid of these as soon as you can become undead in a convenient way.

[Curmudgeon]

Tog-na wandered for a time, before finding a temple of Bahamut.
...
(Dragonborn, then Half-Minotaur, +1 LA)
From Monster Manual, pages 291-293:
ACQUIRED AND INHERITED TEMPLATES
...
Other templates, known as inherited templates, are part of a creature from the beginning of its existence.
...
Adding More Than One Template
In theory, there’s no limit to the number of templates you can add to a creature. To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates.
Half-Minotaur is an inherited template. Dragonborn isn't a template, but it happens after birth; that's why it's a rebirth. You can't "wander for a time" before the beginning of your existence.

[BowStreetRunner]

The challenge is to make a character that can be played. One that can survive despite all stats being 3. You're not going to survive long enough to get 8000+g and just "Go buy a Candle of Invocation" all willy-nilly.
For the purposes of this challenge, it's okay if a particular option isn't playable from level 1. It would be pretty clear that options with level adjustments would only be viable in games that start above that level, or using savage progressions. Nor is it a problem if the build is a 'Magikarp' until after a certain level, as long as it eventually becomes optimized in some way. However, I don't think you can reliably count on something that relies on an in-game interaction, such as how a certain DM would adjudicate a wish. There are too many DMs out there who don't act in a predictable fashion with regard to such things to count on it working the way you want. So a build that counts on being able to gate in a creature and get a wish granted is probably a bit out of scope for this challenge.

[Brova]

That answer doesn't work here (or anywhere, really).

The challenge is to make a character that can be played. One that can survive despite all stats being 3. You're not going to survive long enough to get 8000+g and just "Go buy a Candle of Invocation" all willy-nilly.

Let us review the conditions of the challenge. The original poster posed this objective:


Make the most optimized character you can (20-level build) with all attributes before racial adjustments as 3s.

That calls for a 20 level build. Given that you can in fact make enough money by level 20 to buy a Candle of Invocation, a build which employs the Candle fulfills the criteria of the challenge. Further, objecting that a build "would not be allowed in an actual campaign" is problematic for three reasons. One, it is an inherently unpredictable standard. Two, the challenge itself exists outside the space of games proscribed by RAW. Three, the challenge includes no provision indicating a maximum power level.

You make some other complaints about the Candle that are incorrect, but I don't think anyone wants to turn this into another debate about that. And there are of course other ways of achieving the same end. Most notably, a scroll or similar item of shapechange turning you into a Zodar.

[Chronos]

20th level builds only exist if the character has survived that long.

And while a warlock might do OK with Eldritch Blast, that -4 Dex penalty is going to hurt, especially at the low levels. A better option for a low-level warlock (even one with a good Dex) is the Summon Swarm invocation: That auto-hits up to four targets (all precisely selectable, as long as they're adjacent to each other), without even a save for half, plus two different save-or-sucks, one of which you can choose, with a DC that doesn't depend on your stats.

Get by with that and a Wild Cohort until your BAB and stat increases are high enough to make Eldritch Blast viable.

[Novawurmson]

If PF is allowed, Summoner or one of its archetypes, like the Synthesist.

[Andezzar]

Be sure to pick up Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) so you have something to keep enemies away from your squishy little body.There's also leadership for more bodyguards, sidekicks etc.

[icefractal]

If templates are allowed, then start with Divine Minion (the Mulhorandi one). Spend all your time as an animal, because you can. Then take whatever - any class that doesn't rely on mental stats.

If you want to enter the realm of cheese, you could go into Master of Many Forms at this point. An interesting point about the rules contention (whether the Divine Minion's wild shape satisfies the requirements) - if you take the template but then also take Wildshape Ranger 5 and qualify using that, is there any reason you can't just ignore the Ranger's crappy wild shape and use your MoMF abilities with the Divine Minion one?

[Curmudgeon]

Given that you can in fact make enough money by level 20 to buy a Candle of Invocation, a build which employs the Candle fulfills the criteria of the challenge.
A build can include magic items such as a Candle of Invocation. However, the build can't presuppose desired results from using magic which the DM adjudicates. You can call creatures via Gate. You can't presuppose that called creatures with limited (n/day) abilities haven't used those up at the time you call them. You have no insight into when their personal day begins, nor what they've been doing earlier in that day. Only the DM makes those decisions. A Candle of Invocation can guarantee that a Cleric can prepare and cast spells of a higher level than they would normally be allowed. It can't guarantee access to Wish.

[Brova]

A build can include magic items such as a Candle of Invocation. However, the build can't presuppose desired results from using magic which the DM adjudicates. You can call creatures via Gate. You can't presuppose that called creatures with limited (n/day) abilities haven't used those up at the time you call them. You have no insight into when their personal day begins, nor what they've been doing earlier in that day. Only the DM makes those decisions. A Candle of Invocation can guarantee that a Cleric can prepare and cast spells of a higher level than they would normally be allowed. It can't guarantee access to Wish.

That particular item is simply the lowest level choice which is likely to work. Other options exist. For example, you could use planar binding and simply wait a day before requesting your wishes, ensuring that they are fulfilled. Or you could buy a scroll of shapechange instead of an item of wish, and opt to turn into a Zodar, using it's 1/year Supernatural wish.

[Curmudgeon]

Or you could buy a scroll of shapechange instead of an item of wish, and opt to turn into a Zodar, using it's 1/year Supernatural wish.
Again, you're presupposing a state of availability that's determined by the DM. Why would you assume that you take the form of a Zodar at the start of its personal year, with Wish still available? Shapechange lets you use all the Supernatural abilities of the form you assume, but that spell has no guarantee that limited use Supernatural abilities are fully charged.

[Andezzar]

Shapechange does not let the target of the spell use Su abilities, it merely grants them, but granting an unusable ability is a pretty mean interpretation.

How about other limited abilities? Now that I think of it I cannot find limited Su abilities not granted as class f. Are there any? What about a Hound Archon's Smite Evil ability? Will it not necessarily be available?

It seems that the Zodar's Wish should really be changed to Sp, since that ability pretty much matches the definition of spell-like.

Couldn't you specify the exact age of the Zodar you turn into?

[Flickerdart]

Don't forget that you can use PAO+Awaken to de-crap your Intelligence as soon as you can afford to hire a druid and a wizard, and your Charisma will get a boost out of it too. Or just get PAO'd into a tree and then awakened, resetting all your stats.

[Curmudgeon]

Couldn't you specify the exact age of the Zodar you turn into?
I don't see any provision for that specification in Shapechange. In fact, the "nonunique creature" restriction should keep you from picking a form with the unique age you wanted.

[Nifft]

I don't see any provision for that specification in Shapechange. In fact, the "nonunique creature" restriction should keep you from picking a form with the unique age you wanted.

That's not what nonunique means.

Anyway, the provision which implies you can choose the age is:



This spell functions like polymorph, except (...)



This spell functions like alter self, except (...)



You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind.

[Brova]

Again, you're presupposing a state of availability that's determined by the DM. Why would you assume that you take the form of a Zodar at the start of its personal year, with Wish still available? Shapechange lets you use all the Supernatural abilities of the form you assume, but that spell has no guarantee that limited use Supernatural abilities are fully charged.

There are two interpretations of "per year". One, it resets at a specific point. In that case, you just use the scroll "around" that point, so that you are a Zodar when the year turns over. Two, it resets a year after the last use. In that case, you can use it as soon as you transform because the Zodar you are didn't exist to have a last use.

[Curmudgeon]

Anyway, the provision which implies you can choose the age is:
Nothing you quoted specifies age. Those listed qualities have no impact in game terms, whereas age in D&D can affect ability scores.


There are two interpretations of "per year". One, it resets at a specific point. In that case, you just use the scroll "around" that point, so that you are a Zodar when the year turns over. Two, it resets a year after the last use. In that case, you can use it as soon as you transform because the Zodar you are didn't exist to have a last use.
There are more possible interpretations than that, but the details don't matter. Your DM chooses the interpretation of "per year", and is free to pick one which means that you don't get Wish.

[Andezzar]

Nothing you quoted specifies age. Those listed qualities have no impact in game terms, whereas age in D&D can affect ability scores.Height and weight do have impact on the game. They define what ledge a character can reach and which mounts can carry him. You are right, age is not mentioned, but height and weight are preceded by "such as" meaning that this is a non-exhaustive list.



There are more possible interpretations than that, but the details don't matter. Your DM chooses the interpretation of "per year", and is free to pick one which means that you don't get Wish.No matter how you define the year the form is not an actual creature but a set of modifications to the target. Since there is no Zodar before the target assumed a Zodar's form, that non-existent Zodar had no opportunity to use its Supernatural abilities.

[shawshank]

Nothing you quoted specifies age. Those listed qualities have no impact in game terms, whereas age in D&D can affect ability scores.


There are more possible interpretations than that, but the details don't matter. Your DM chooses the interpretation of "per year", and is free to pick one which means that you don't get Wish.

Yes, I suppose the DM can purposely screw over a party any way he wishes. That sounds very confrontational as a way to DM. Also, isn't this an optimization theory exercise with no bearing on real play. Who cares about all this DM interpretation crap. The DM could just as easily go the other way. Again, in theoretical optimization, don't you assume the best possible situation? Because, you know, its theoretical.

Also, since the form is nonunique, doesn't that mean you turn into an average one. Not even one that actually exists. You effectively are assuming the abilities, looks, stats etc of an average creature of whatever type you are allowed to assume. Does the DM roll what abilities the average Bodak or whatever has available? How do you even begin to interpret that. It seems to be that shapechange assume default starting situation of a nonunique creature so all abilities would be reset to starting presets.. which is why it assumes all 10 base stats with modifiers etc. Shrug, we ban that spell from our games anyway.

[Brova]

There are more possible interpretations than that, but the details don't matter. Your DM chooses the interpretation of "per year", and is free to pick one which means that you don't get Wish.

So which one stops you from getting your free wish? Time based ones are vulnerable to timing, use based ones don't matter. And besides, there's zero indication you have to wait for abilities to recharge after acquiring them.

[Nifft]

Nothing you quoted specifies age. Those listed qualities have no impact in game terms, whereas age in D&D can affect ability scores. Actually, changing any variable in a way which affects ability score would be invalidated by the "typical of its kind" stipulation, which says that you get the rulebook listing and nothing more (and nothing less).

But you're also wrong: teleport capacity, ability to be lifted, ability to ride a creature -- all that is dependent on weight.


There are more possible interpretations than that, but the details don't matter. Your DM chooses the interpretation of "per year", and is free to pick one which means that you don't get Wish.

I don't actually see any interpretation which precludes getting one wish per year.

This isn't a Conjuration spell. The creature doesn't exist when I'm not wearing its skin.

[Curmudgeon]

So which one stops you from getting your free wish?
How about the obvious one of the form not having existed for a year? It's a 1/year ability, after all.

[Nifft]

How about the obvious one of the form not having existed for a year? It's a 1/year ability, after all.

That would imply that you can't use 1/day abilities without having that form overnight.

That's clearly wrong.

[Brova]

How about the obvious one of the form not having existed for a year? It's a 1/year ability, after all.

That's assuming the ability "starts" uncharged. There's no indication that a Zodar doesn't get to use it's wish until a year has passed. Anyway, you could always go back to the Efreet plan. I'm eager to hear the interpretation of "3/day" that prevents a caster from simply having an Efreet wait around for a day after being bound. Or for that matter, you can use awaken tricks combined with Archmage and Innate Spell to get your own wish.

[OldTrees1]

Question: Why are we going to wish/zodar to bypass our ability scores? We can still make a Tier 1 - Tier 0.5 character by normal means? So regardless of which side you fall on the wish/zodar issue, we still have a obscenely powerful result without it.

[Brova]

Question: Why are we going to wish/zodar to bypass our ability scores? We can still make a Tier 1 - Tier 0.5 character by normal means? So regardless of which side you fall on the wish/zodar issue, we still have a obscenely powerful result without it.

Point of order: The original proposal was to use a Candle of Invocation and the wishes of a called Efreet to create magic items which bypass ability scores. Curmudgeon holds that a DM could throw Efreet with all their uses of wish expended at you, meaning that you wouldn't get what you wanted.

As to why, mostly because it is an optimized build given the constraints. Why would you not?

[BowStreetRunner]

Wow! It sure is interesting to see the way this thread got hijacked into a debate about whether any Wish cheese would work or not. :smalleek: Regardless, since the scenario presented implied the player does not know the DM for the event, I would say that anything that can be described as cheese would be risky to take into the game. The player would want to make sure there was no wiggle room for the DM to disqualify his build, risking the loss of his entry fee.

Anyway, I'm liking some of the other ideas that came out of this. In particular, I think a Gully Dwarf Warlock with the Wild Cohort feat and the Summon Swarm invocation might just survive a few levels, and be fun to play.


We can have some fun with templates. Start with the PH Elf race (+2 DEX, -2 CON). Add, in order, Wild, Unseelie Fey, Dustform, and Incarnate Construct (total of LA +0).
Wild: +2 STR, -2 INT, -2 CHA. (Result: STR 5, DEX 5, CON 1, INT 1, WIS 3, CHA 1)
Unseelie Fey: STR -2, DEX +2, CON -2, CHA +2 (Result: STR 3, DEX 7, CON -1, INT 1, WIS 3, CHA 3)
Dustform: STR +4, DEX -2, CON & INT non-abilities. (Result: STR 7, DEX 5, CON —, INT —, WIS 3, CHA 3)
Incarnate Construct: Any score below 3 is set to 3, and nonabilities are rolled. (Result, assuming averages: STR 7, DEX 5, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 3, CHA 3)
After all this LA +0 stuff, acquiring Lolth-Touched (+6 STR, +6 CON) and buying off that LA +1 at class level 3 would be helpful.

STR 13
DEX 5
CON 18
INT 12
WIS 3
CHA 3
Speed: land 30', fly 70'
Favored Class: Fighter
With these numbers, a Warblade focusing on Diamond Mind maneuvers (Concentration checks substitute for saves and damage rolls) would be viable.
As for this one, I don't have access to the sources for all of those templates, but it is pretty amazing that all of that can be done with a LA of only +1. This would certainly be a playable character in any game starting above 1st level.

As for Tog-na, I tried several times to recreate the same build (following the rules for applying templates) and while I did not come up with the same stats the ones I did get were impressive enough to suggest that this character would also be playable with only a +1 LA again.

[Vhaidara]

Druid. Animal companion carries you through early game, then you hit and your stats don't matter. Master of many forms is also viable here, since you'll never really be able to cast anyways.

Was there a reason this wasn't considered acceptable? You can throw on Wild Cohort as a feat to snag a second animal companion.

[Curmudgeon]

Was there a reason this wasn't considered acceptable? You can throw on Wild Cohort as a feat to snag a second animal companion.
I'm just guessing, but the character doesn't do anything except urge its animal companion on, at least until level 5 when it first gets to use Wild Shape. That's pretty boring, even if you acquire a second companion.

[Andezzar]

I'm just guessing, but the character doesn't do anything except urge its animal companion on, at least until level 5 when it first gets to use Wild Shape. That's pretty boring, even if you acquire a second companion.That depends on whether you go by RAW and all NPCs are controlled by the DM or whether you use the very common houserule of letting the player of the character with the animal companion play the animal.

[Curmudgeon]

That depends on whether you go by RAW and all NPCs are controlled by the DM or whether you use the very common houserule of letting the player of the character with the animal companion play the animal.
I think that's already been addressed by the OP:

Regardless, since the scenario presented implied the player does not know the DM for the event, I would say that anything that can be described as cheese would be risky to take into the game. The player would want to make sure there was no wiggle room for the DM to disqualify his build, risking the loss of his entry fee.

[Endarire]

Anthropomorphic Bat Druid. Venerable Anthropomorphic Bat Druid. (I assume you can't go below 1 in any stat, and, due to the aforementioned Dragonlance book quote, no starting stat can go below 3 due to race or aging.)

Take Wild Cohort.

Take flaws for extra feats.

Take Greenbound and Ashbound.

Hi Welcome (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9724.0).

[OldTrees1]

Point of order: The original proposal was to use a Candle of Invocation and the wishes of a called Efreet to create magic items which bypass ability scores. Curmudgeon holds that a DM could throw Efreet with all their uses of wish expended at you, meaning that you wouldn't get what you wanted.

As to why, mostly because it is an optimized build given the constraints. Why would you not?

Given the constraints, I suggested a Tier 1 character with full access to their 9th level spells/powers. Once they had that I guess they might use some wishes but I would not use the wishes to bypass the ability scores before such a bypass was unneeded. Reason: Use non controversial materials for a build foundation that way both sides would accept the majority of the build.

[Amphetryon]

Regardless, since the scenario presented implied the player does not know the DM for the event, I would say that anything that can be described as cheese would be risky to take into the game. The player would want to make sure there was no wiggle room for the DM to disqualify his build, risking the loss of his entry fee.Given the fact that a huge variety of build options can be described, truthfully, as 'cheese' by a given hypothetical DM, and the unfortunate fact that this quote from the OP places no burden of truth or adjudicating validity of the 'cheese' description other than (apparently) the DM's call, the challenge is entirely unwinnable. Any winning entry can summarily be declared cheese and therefore forfeit, by the rules given.

[SangoProduction]

In the book Bastards and Bloodlines, there's the feat: Lost Tradition, which lets you change a single class's primary casting attribute to any other attribute. Put it in Con. Take Wizard. Win as standard...and there are more things that boost Con than Int anyway, so that's a win-win.
Or if you are still worried about your health, go Druid, taking the same feat. Boom you can now transform into shift that's even better...for your spell casting...and everything else lol. Also, animal companions. Take Dragon Cohort. Even with a -4 to the score, you're level 20. It's still worthwhile. While you're at it, pick up Leadership as well, to put even more bodies between you and the enemy. And then go full summoner on them.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Warforged scout +2 dex -2 str -2 wis -2 cha and small size plus half ogre +4 str -2 int -2 cha +1 size for medium and +8 str +4 con and -2 dex, and half minotaur +4 str +2 con -2 int and another size increase to large for another +8 str +4 con and -2 dex and incarnate construct -2 LA for a final of str 25 con 13 dex 3 int 12(assuming average on reroll) wis 3 cha 3 at LA +0. And before you make arguments of a warforged not being able to have inherited templates keep in mind that that is an entirely fluff related argument that has no bearing on mechanics except *maybe what order the templates go in. *I say maybe because that also might not be true, I can't remember where exactly right now but I know it is mentioned in at least one book that inherited templates can be gained later through magic rituals or some other such fluff if the DM okays it and I'm sure since this is mechanically legal and you rolled all 1's TWICE he would. And for class pick whatever melee str dependent class you feel like and wear full plate.

[Vhaidara]

Morgrom, the issue there isn't apply inherited templates to warforged scout, it's applying half ogre and half minotaur (both dragon mag, therefore not strictly first party) to a construct, which isn't legal.

[Andezzar]

At least according to wikipedia Dragon Magazine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_%28magazine%29) was published fistr by TSR and then Wizards of the Coast, the rights holders of D&D in the respective time periods. So I cannot see why it wouldn't be first party. The lack of acceptance in many groups is due to lack of access and poor balancing IMHO.

[Curmudgeon]

In the book Bastards and Bloodlines ...
That's a d20 sourcebook, not a D&D source. It's unlikely for a random 3rd-party source to be approved given an unknown DM.

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm seeing a lot of interesting ideas, but not 20 level builds to go with them. Some things I've noticed when attempting to apply some of the ideas to actual builds:

Wild Cohort is a great way to provide your character with a guardian to keep him alive until he starts to pull his own weight. But with a starting INT of 3 almost all of these builds will only have a single skill point per level. Additionally, Handle Animal is not a class skill for classes like Warlock, making the training and directing of such a companion rather difficult.

Several posts utilized Incarnate Construct to re-roll a stat. Since this challenge was all about making the most out of the worst possible rolls, I'm going to say that any time a roll is involved you should expect the worst possible outcome - in this case rolling 3s for the stats again.

A number of ideas were tossed around that rely on magic items or in-game interactions with extra-planar beings. I don't know how it works for others but the games I've been in I never assume I will be able to access a particular magic item or that my in-game interactions will go as planned. For builds relying on such things, assume the DM is going to say the magic item is not available or will find a way to turn the in-game interaction against the PC. (It's nice when you get lucky with a DM that gives you what you hope for, but again, this is all about making the most out of the worst kind of luck.)

For a couple of the templates that were suggested, I have not always been able to find the original source. An online search won't always help either, so if the poster could include the source that would be nice. (For instance, I have not been able to locate the 'Wild' template, although I found a 'Wild Creature' template that doesn't appear to match.)

I really didn't specify 3.5, 3.0, PF, or other d20 system when I posted. I'll update the original post to indicate that I am primarily looking at 3.5. However, if someone wants to bring up an option from outside 3.5 that's not a problem - just indicate PF or whatever. I play those games too.

[Curmudgeon]

Wild INHERITED template (Dragon # 306, page 65):

- APPLIES ONLY TO PLAYER'S HANDBOOK RACES
- retain all racial ability adjustments; also

+2 STR, -2 INT, -2 CHA
- lose all racial skill adjustments; also

+1 skill point/level
+2 Listen, +2 Spot, +4 Survival
-2 Bluff, -2 Diplomacy, -2 Sense Motive
- lose all racial SLAs
- +5' to base speed
- Favored Class: Ranger (replaces previous FC)
- LA +0


The extra skill point per level is on top of the minimum 1 skill point, so that's a big plus here.

[Urpriest]

Note that it's extremely unlikely for an all 3's character to be approved, given a general DM, so we can assume at least some leeway.

[Troacctid]

I'm just guessing, but the character doesn't do anything except urge its animal companion on, at least until level 5 when it first gets to use Wild Shape. That's pretty boring, even if you acquire a second companion.

You should be commanding your animal companion using Handle Animal. It's a free action to do so, so even with negative Charisma, you can retry as often as you need to to succeed.

[Amphetryon]

Note that it's extremely unlikely for an all 3's character to be approved, given a general DM, so we can assume at least some leeway.

But, given that we know nothing else of what may or may not be approved, any Character proposal here is tilting at windmills, while we must remain fully cognizant of the fact that the DM has claimed/been given the right of absolute approval/disapproval of any concept we put forward, based on an undefined notion of what constitutes "cheese."

[Flickerdart]

Several posts utilized Incarnate Construct to re-roll a stat. Since this challenge was all about making the most out of the worst possible rolls, I'm going to say that any time a roll is involved you should expect the worst possible outcome - in this case rolling 3s for the stats again.
Fortunately, awaken can be maximized, giving us 8-28 STR and 4-14 DEX (depending on the size of the tree) and 18 in all mental scores.

[BowStreetRunner]

But, given that we know nothing else of what may or may not be approved, any Character proposal here is tilting at windmills, while we must remain fully cognizant of the fact that the DM has claimed/been given the right of absolute approval/disapproval of any concept we put forward, based on an undefined notion of what constitutes "cheese."
Just answer me this: would you show up to a 3.5 game at a convention for which you had paid to play and try to get the DM to allow you to play Pun Pun? If you feel that the risk of a particular build being turned down would be minimal, then by all means let's see what you can make. Personally, I would shy away from anything that I wasn't certain was clearly within RAW and RAI to the majority of DMs. But that's just me.


Fortunately, awaken can be maximized, giving us 8-28 STR and 4-14 DEX (depending on the size of the tree) and 18 in all mental scores.
Now this is the kind of thing I am looking for. Take the random chance out of it entirely by maximizing the rolls. However, the last I checked the animated object template had a level adjustment of --, indicating it is not playable as a PC.

[Urpriest]

But, given that we know nothing else of what may or may not be approved, any Character proposal here is tilting at windmills, while we must remain fully cognizant of the fact that the DM has claimed/been given the right of absolute approval/disapproval of any concept we put forward, based on an undefined notion of what constitutes "cheese."

We can make some guesses. For example, the DM is clearly comfortable with messing with RAI to some extent, and doesn't care a lot about playability or balance. They also have at least some appreciation for humor, and factor that into their decisions about what to allow and what not to allow.

[Flickerdart]

Now this is the kind of thing I am looking for. Take the random chance out of it entirely by maximizing the rolls. However, the last I checked the animated object template had a level adjustment of --, indicating it is not playable as a PC.
You're not an animated object, you just have stats like one.

Consider: If you are a human, and you polymorph into a balor (who has no LA), are you not still a playable character? So why should a human polymorphed into a tree not be a playable character? And why should that tree, awakened into an awakened tree, not be a playable character?

[BowStreetRunner]

You're not an animated object, you just have stats like one.

Consider: If you are a human, and you polymorph into a balor (who has no LA), are you not still a playable character? So why should a human polymorphed into a tree not be a playable character? And why should that tree, awakened into an awakened tree, not be a playable character?
Fair enough. So what is the LA for an awakened animal or tree?

[Flickerdart]

Fair enough. So what is the LA for an awakened animal or tree?
What is the LA for a balor someone shapeshifted into?

[Andezzar]

What is the LA for a balor someone shapeshifted into?Not sure which ability you mean, but shapechange does not make the character a Balor, the character merely gets many stats of a balor. LA is not one of those stats, so the LA does not change.

[Flickerdart]

Not sure which ability you mean, but shapechange does not make the character a Balor, the character merely gets many stats of a balor. LA is not one of those stats, so the LA does not change.
That's my point. Just like shapechange does not change the recipient's LA, neither would polymorph any object or awaken.

[BowStreetRunner]

That's my point. Just like shapechange does not change the recipient's LA, neither would polymorph any object or awaken.
Okay, but if before being awakened they had LA--, then they still have LA--. At some point, you need to have an actual playable level adjustment to work with, and LA-- is not the same as LA+0.

[Vhaidara]

Okay, but if before being awakened they had LA--, then they still have LA--. At some point, you need to have an actual playable level adjustment to work with, and LA-- is not the same as LA+0.

The point he is making
Human: LA +0
Human Polymorphed into a Balor: LA +0 (same as human)
Human Polymorphed into a tree: LA +0 (same as human)
Human Polymorphed into a tree then Awakened: LA +0 (same as human)

[Andezzar]

The point he is making
Human: LA +0
Human Polymorphed into a Balor: LA +0 (same as human)
Human Polymorphed into a tree: LA +0 (same as human)
Human Polymorphed into a tree then Awakened: LA +0 (same as human)A tree is not a creature and thus not a valid choice for polymorph.
PAO works differently. It actually changes one object/creature into another creature/object instead of adding and removing certain characteristics from a creature. So if at any point the entity becomes a creature with LA: - it is no longer playable.

[Flickerdart]

A tree is not a creature and thus not a valid choice for polymorph.
PAO works differently. It actually changes one object/creature into another creature/object instead of adding and removing certain characteristics from a creature. So if at any point the entity becomes a creature with LA: - it is no longer playable.
Polymorph: This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature.

It quite literally changes you into another creature. No mention is made of "adding or removing certain characteristics."

[Andezzar]

"Another form of living creature" is not the same as "another living creature". The rest of the text makes it clearer, it always talks about the "new/assumed form", never about a new/assumed creature. The text also tells us what the target gains and looses. All those changes do not make the result equal to the creature whose form is assumed. For example a human wizard polymorphing into a deep gnome will still be of the human race (despite having the humanoid type and gnome subtype) and will not have spell like abilities. So this new form is not equal to a Svirfneblin.

[Amphetryon]

Just answer me this: would you show up to a 3.5 game at a convention for which you had paid to play and try to get the DM to allow you to play Pun Pun? If you feel that the risk of a particular build being turned down would be minimal, then by all means let's see what you can make. Personally, I would shy away from anything that I wasn't certain was clearly within RAW and RAI to the majority of DMs. But that's just me.

I made no mention of Pun-Pun, and the listed rule about cheese, to this point, made no reference whatsoever to RAW, RAI, or 'the majority of DMs,' only that things considered 'cheese' would not fly. What's considered cheese in 3.X varies greatly from table to table, as any perusal of this or another 3.X forum will quickly make plain. Without RAW, RAI, or a majority view to go on, we've been left with guessing what this particular DM might consider Orcus, er, cheese.