May have done a bad thing

[Atalas]

One of my players is playing a half-elf Ranger and I let him talk me into giving him a Moonblade. At level 6. family heirloom inherited from his character's mom. Scimitar instead of a longsword. He bargained that I would not have to give him any other items for the rest of the campaign, and I do have idea's to be able to take the campaign all the way to level 20, or until the players oust a rebellion and tell me to come up with a new campaign. Now, since I knew I was giving him a legendary item, I decided to be more than fair and roll the whole thing. I wasn't gonna be a jerk about it and just give him one with two abilities and call it a day. So, 1d6+1, rolled a 6. Started rolling on the table, he ended up with a a +3 weapon that sang a part of an ancient song in his head when he hits something, never gets dirty, could be thrown like a dagger, gave +2 initiative, and bears a hidden message thats meaning I have yet to determine or when it appears.

I have a few reasons for giving this to him. He's a good player, he just gave our party a bunch of good magic items at the same level in his campaign (yeah, I knew it was a bit of blackmail), and he rolled rather poor stats. He's also now the party tank since one of the warlock's and the Eldritch Knight moved away and the wizard was away for the whole summer I had someone else in our regular group roll up a sorcerer to replace him, and with a full party of six they still almost died to a single bullete. A party of six, at level five, nearly died to a monster that should have been an easy encounter.

Now, I can always take it away somehow later on after they get a few more levels, or I could give the rest of the party some better stuff over some believable encounters to boost them too. Or, just let things progress as they are and see how things go. I'm inclined for one of the latter two options, particularly option three. This is my first time DMing and I want the campaign to be fun for all, and I want them to die by bad choices/rolls, not because I'm actively trying to kill them.

[Strill]

+3 is a bit overkill, but it shouldn't make too huge of a difference.

[some guy]

One of my players is playing a half-elf Ranger and I let him talk me into giving him a Moonblade. At level 6. family heirloom inherited from his character's mom. Scimitar instead of a longsword. He bargained that I would not have to give him any other items for the rest of the campaign, and I do have idea's to be able to take the campaign all the way to level 20, or until the players oust a rebellion and tell me to come up with a new campaign. Now, since I knew I was giving him a legendary item, I decided to be more than fair and roll the whole thing. I wasn't gonna be a jerk about it and just give him one with two abilities and call it a day. So, 1d6+1, rolled a 6. Started rolling on the table, he ended up with a a +3 weapon that sang a part of an ancient song in his head when he hits something, never gets dirty, could be thrown like a dagger, gave +2 initiative, and bears a hidden message thats meaning I have yet to determine or when it appears.

Now, I can always take it away somehow later on after they get a few more levels, or I could give the rest of the party some better stuff over some believable encounters to boost them too. Or, just let things progress as they are and see how things go. I'm inclined for one of the latter two options, particularly option three. This is my first time DMing and I want the campaign to be fun for all, and I want them to die by bad choices/rolls, not because I'm actively trying to kill them.

Option 4: Downgrade the weapon at this moment and let it level along with the character. Let the character be able to advance elven ideals and after every succesful major advancement, the moonblade unlocks one of it's properties.

[Celcey]

Have the moonblade be testing him. Have it be deciding if it thinks he's worthy, and have it slot allow him access to its properties as he upholds elven ideals and all around proves himself worthy.

Edit: Shadow Monked :smalltongue:

[Tallis]

Looking at it it doesn't seem super powerful to me. Granted I'm just picking up 5e but I've played other editions and this doesn't seem like a game breaker. The others will catch up naturally. I do like the idea of the weapon gaining power over time. Let it level up with him.

I will say it's probably not a good idea to give gifts in your campaign as a reward for things outside the game. Bribery can get messy and other players might get mad.

[napoleon_in_rag]

Moonblade for a level 6 ranger. I see a couple of potential problems with this.

1) Does this make the ranger OP when compared with the other players of the group? This will cause jealousy/hate/discontent with the other players. You may have to give powerful magic items to the other players to make them happy... Which could lead to player boredom. The game is a lot less fun when everyone has an overly powerful weapon.

2) Never just give a magical item, make them EARN it. So if a player is nagging you for a moonblade, use it as an adventure hook. Say something "While at the inn, you hear the legend of the great moonblade GNARKILL that was wielded by the Great Elven Champion FUFU. Unfortunately, 100 years ago, FUFU disappeared while exploring the dungeon of death...." Now the payer is motivated to explore the Dungeon of Death.

3) This is YOUR campaign. You need to make objective decisions based how fair it is within this campaign. Whether this guy is your best friend or he gave you a magic weapon in his campaign, you don't owe him anything in your campaign.


Some old schoolers might say you are doing a "Monty Haul" but I think as long as this is balanced to your campaign, it can be all right.

[Shining Wrath]

Yeah, letting another DM dictate the course of your campaign to be like his campaign doesn't work. It's a mistake.

But you've done it. Roll with it and see how it goes. If it's too much, give everyone something and scale up your encounters, or talk to the player and reduce this weapon, or have The Greatest Elven Fighter In The World decide that he is the rightful owner and come claim it.

[Atalas]

Considering basically the next thing he did with it (besides killing some gnolls and an ettin) was use it to assault his character's potential fiance (the new party member, the sorcerer), I can have the Moonblade be upset with him and not give him its full power anymore. Downgrade it back to a +1, take the thrown property away. Change the ancient song he hears when he hits from something grand and majestic to something plain and ordinary that grows in significance as he regains its trust.

And I was planning on giving the whole party grand stuff over time. The remaining warlock is a is Pact of the Blade with a Fiendish Pact who kinda rather... sucks at going into melee. Rather, he didn't exactly roll good enough stats to really be a caster or a dex-base melee. 16 isn't bad in either stat, but, it's not exactly good either. And being a Fire Genasi, well, +1 Int is unneeded and +2 enables him to survive a bit better. The other members of the party are trying to get him to drop the Pact of the Blade aspects and focus more on the casting, which somehow whenever he's rolling for Eldritch Blast he's getting crits like crazy. If he brings it up I'll let him change his Pact Boon. He's been begging me for something to give him an animal companion anyway.

The only one who might object is the warlock, actually. Only two players, Ranger and Sorcerer, were there at the time and the Sorcerer didn't care. The Cleric probably won't but then he just got some mithral plate and he started the game with a Tentacle Rod. and I let him be a Death Domain Cleric when I didn't want any outright evil characters in my first campaign. The Warlock might since he missed out on getting a +2 Rod of the Pact Keeper at the start of the game, but I already know how to placate him: he wants a familiar or animal companion, but he went Blade not Chain.

I am honestly kinda letting them play me jut to have an excuse to scale encounters. How does accidentally stumbling upon the Tarrasque's lair sound? Of course, in-game none of them are gonna known what a Tarrasque is since one's never been recorded (Forgtten Realms setting, so I could be wrong), and I can be as vague as I can when describing it.

[Once a Fool]

Considering basically the next thing he did with it (besides killing some gnolls and an ettin) was use it to assault his character's potential fiance (the new party member, the sorcerer), I can have the Moonblade be upset with him and not give him its full power anymore. Downgrade it back to a +1, take the thrown property away. Change the ancient song he hears when he hits from something grand and majestic to something plain and ordinary that grows in significance as he regains its trust.

And I was planning on giving the whole party grand stuff over time. The remaining warlock is a is Pact of the Blade with a Fiendish Pact who kinda rather... sucks at going into melee. Rather, he didn't exactly roll good enough stats to really be a caster or a dex-base melee. 16 isn't bad in either stat, but, it's not exactly good either. And being a Fire Genasi, well, +1 Int is unneeded and +2 enables him to survive a bit better. The other members of the party are trying to get him to drop the Pact of the Blade aspects and focus more on the casting, which somehow whenever he's rolling for Eldritch Blast he's getting crits like crazy. If he brings it up I'll let him change his Pact Boon. He's been begging me for something to give him an animal companion anyway.

The only one who might object is the warlock, actually. Only two players, Ranger and Sorcerer, were there at the time and the Sorcerer didn't care. The Cleric probably won't but then he just got some mithral plate and he started the game with a Tentacle Rod. and I let him be a Death Domain Cleric when I didn't want any outright evil characters in my first campaign. The Warlock might since he missed out on getting a +2 Rod of the Pact Keeper at the start of the game, but I already know how to placate him: he wants a familiar or animal companion, but he went Blade not Chain.

I am honestly kinda letting them play me jut to have an excuse to scale encounters. How does accidentally stumbling upon the Tarrasque's lair sound? Of course, in-game none of them are gonna known what a Tarrasque is since one's never been recorded (Forgtten Realms setting, so I could be wrong), and I can be as vague as I can when describing it.

It sounds to me like you're setting yourself up for some swingy encounters down the road.

The high powered magic items (plural!) you've already given them mean they can take on tougher monsters--and will have to to be challenged, but they still won't have the hit points to survive if (when) the dice turn against them. You might find that all of those magic items are leading straight to a TPK.

[napoleon_in_rag]

I am honestly kinda letting them play me jut to have an excuse to scale encounters. How does accidentally stumbling upon the Tarrasque's lair sound? Of course, in-game none of them are gonna known what a Tarrasque is since one's never been recorded (Forgtten Realms setting, so I could be wrong), and I can be as vague as I can when describing it.

I don't know, Atalas, I think you have thrown away the balance of the game by giving away too many magic items. It seems like you are letting the players run the game and you think by throwing THE Tarrasque (there is only one) at them is the only way you can get challenge back. A campaign like this isn't going to last.

[Keltest]

My advice when giving out large powerful magic items like that is to make their abilities "locked" or hidden until the player gains levels. Make it more powerful along with them, so that they don't end up replacing or ditching it, but also so that it doesn't end up making level appropriate encounters trivial.


If youre concerned about whether or not your game will implode due to poor loot distribution, talk to your players about it. Tell them that you think you made a mistake throwing around so much power to them, and that you think they should be toned down so that in the long term the game goes well. If theyre up for toning it down, good! Problem solved. If not, at least you made them aware that you think there will be a problem, so they (hopefully) wont jump down your throat if the game implodes like youre afraid it will.

[napoleon_in_rag]

My advice when giving out large powerful magic items like that is to make their abilities "locked" or hidden until the player gains levels. Make it more powerful along with them, so that they don't end up replacing or ditching it, but also so that it doesn't end up making level appropriate encounters trivial.


I agree. Create a history for the item that is revealed along with special abilities over time. That prevents it from being just another "+1 Longsword"

[Raevum]

A legendary moonblade heirloom in a family shouldn't be so easily accessible, this is 5e, a +3 item is considered ridiculously powerful or rare. I had a dm give us a lot of magic items, almost one per member at the end of one campaign before we were even level 5. Other members of the game grew bland from streamlining and power favoritism towards certain players.

If they want their heirloom they better have to work for it, if they want a magic item that's legendary say their heirloom was stolen, maybe a quest of self-proven worth or it's restricted by your own family or heck even a sword in the stone setting would work after you do some dangerous adventure to prove yourself to your own weapon.

The power of the items are reflected in the dm's difficulty of acquiring them. If you could talk it into your backstory than legendary items sound more like a +1 item or even a treasured mundane item above your fire place. If I were a rogue I'd have stolen an item that rare a very long time ago, which could have been a plot hook if you think about it.

[Atalas]

I agree. Create a history for the item that is revealed along with special abilities over time. That prevents it from being just another "+1 Longsword"

We already talked about the backstory for it, and I liked it. I think I'll go with the Moonblade being angry for him attacking his new fiance like he did and basically streamrolling him into going with a plan. While the goals of said plan would technically be expanding elven ideals (because lets face it taking out necromancers and lich's would be that), it doesn't like the methods. Stripping it down to a +1 and then have him earn back the better stuff is probably the way I'll go.

He and I alternate weeks we DM since the group meets once a week, so I have time to think of all options. I gotta figure out the next hooks to get them out and adventuring some more because since those three player's left we actually hadn't played until last night. Diplomatic envoy's are the easiest to do, because the party consists the THREE Nobles. Two siblings, including the one with the Moonblade, and the sorcerer.

[Slipperychicken]

We already talked about the backstory for it, and I liked it. I think I'll go with the Moonblade being angry for him attacking his new fiance like he did and basically streamrolling him into going with a plan. While the goals of said plan would technically be expanding elven ideals (because lets face it taking out necromancers and lich's would be that), it doesn't like the methods. Stripping it down to a +1 and then have him earn back the better stuff is probably the way I'll go.


You could do a few obvious things with the default fluff:

If the fiancee isn't an elf or half-elf, then the "at odds with preserving and protecting elvenkind" clause kicks in. The master isn't going to produce elven swordsmen to keep up the line, so the blade rejects him.
If the fiancee is an elf or half-elf, then assaulting her also violates "preserving and protecting elvenkind", and the blade rejects him.
The ranger's alignment shifted away from neutral good (or he is otherwise "craven, erratic, corrupt"), so the blade rejects him.



I'd probably say the blade should react by shifting down to "normal longsword" (and bitching about the ranger being unworthy, and giving him the rejection debuff), but the ranger can unlock its runes again (one at a time) through displays of valor, neutral-goodness, and doing great deeds for the betterment of elvenkind. Of course, grossly violating the blade's purpose (i.e. killing an elf whose heart isn't blackest evil, acting cruelly, producing heirs who aren't elves) may lock a rune or two. That way you can let him use the sword, while using the 7 runes as a sort of karma-meter to encourage him to act like a hero.

[NotVeryBatman]

You could add a flaw. Something like the elemental weapons in Princes of the Apocalypse. That should even a lot of things out.

But making the weapon evolve like a weapon of legacy would work well too.

[MaxWilson]

You asked for opinions, so here's mine:

The Moonblade +3 (+2 to initiative) as you've described it sounds fine to me, especially if you're not going to give him any other items in the campaign. You should increase the effective level of the party by a couple of levels when computing encounters, especially once other party members start getting items too; but that Moonblade in and of itself isn't powerful enough to distort your game. I.e. any fight they can win with the Moonblade is probably one they were going to win already. It's not game-changing/destroying in the way Armor of Invulnerability would be, for example.

Caveat: I belong to the school of thought that prefers "few but powerful magic items, each one with a name and history." E.g. I gave out a Robe of an Archmagi, Sword of Lifestealing, and a Wand of Web at the very start of my campaign, and have given out maybe four or five items since then (my highest-level PC is now 14th level), some of which were one-time-use consumables.

As a separate issue, Moonblades won't let their wielders be "erratic" or malicious, so depending on his reasons for assaulting his fiance and what that "assault" constituted, he and his Moonblade may or may not be on good terms right now.

Of course you already know that rewarding players for out-of-game behavior leads to problems, so I'll say no more there.

In short, it's fine. You won't have to change the way you design your adventures because of the sword.

[Atalas]

You asked for opinions, so here's mine:

The Moonblade +3 (+2 to initiative) as you've described it sounds fine to me, especially if you're not going to give him any other items in the campaign. You should increase the effective level of the party by a couple of levels when computing encounters, especially once other party members start getting items too; but that Moonblade in and of itself isn't powerful enough to distort your game. I.e. any fight they can win with the Moonblade is probably one they were going to win already. It's not game-changing/destroying in the way Armor of Invulnerability would be, for example.

Caveat: I belong to the school of thought that prefers "few but powerful magic items, each one with a name and history." E.g. I gave out a Robe of an Archmagi, Sword of Lifestealing, and a Wand of Web at the very start of my campaign, and have given out maybe four or five items since then (my highest-level PC is now 14th level), some of which were one-time-use consumables.

As a separate issue, Moonblades won't let their wielders be "erratic" or malicious, so depending on his reasons for assaulting his fiance and what that "assault" constituted, he and his Moonblade may or may not be on good terms right now.

Of course you already know that rewarding players for out-of-game behavior leads to problems, so I'll say no more there.

In short, it's fine. You won't have to change the way you design your adventures because of the sword.

He technically had good reasons. For him at least. The idea of it holding back its properties is one I've really come to like, and intend to use. Futhermore, as far as power goes, I just realized that with his stats, the Moonblade actually makes it as if he had a 20 Dex for attacking, but a -1 initiative if he had such a score. His dex is only 15.

When we next meet I'm gonna talk it over with him. He should be agreeable to the idea of it not liking him assaulting someone (especially since the first attack was done unexpectedly, from behind). During the whole set of conversations that followed I wished I had popcorn, and was so tempted at one point when they were temporarily put into an anti-magic cell in a Temple of Mystra because the sorcerer tried to cast a spell on the ranger while in the Temple (which we all agreed was a major breach in etiquette, and even the law of the realm for casting a spell on someone against their will), there was a priest there to mediate, and I was so, so tempted when the two finally turned back to the priest to ask his opinion to have him eating a bowl of popcorn. They're great RPers when they have something to work with, and this is gonna be the centerpiece of the group's dynamic now.

and there's always tossing them up against a T-Rex. Or, well, I HAVE actually been trying to homebrew the Indomitus.

[Once a Fool]

By the way, despite my earlier warning, I think the best thing you can do (since you've already got a good start on it) is go full-on Monty Haul. Hand out tons and tons of magic items, especially interesting homebrewed ones, and let everyone get it out of their system.

Then, in a few months, when everyone is tired of that style, start a new campaign.

[MaxWilson]

He technically had good reasons. For him at least. The idea of it holding back its properties is one I've really come to like, and intend to use. Futhermore, as far as power goes, I just realized that with his stats, the Moonblade actually makes it as if he had a 20 Dex for attacking, but a -1 initiative if he had such a score. His dex is only 15.

Yeah, that's definitely not game-breaking in that case.

Plus, if he actually had 20 Dex he'd be a terror with a longbow in addition (and maybe Sharpshooter on top), whereas now he's a one-trick pony.

BTW, the bulette thing only just now really registered on me. Wow, they almost died to an encounter that wasn't even Easy? (900 XP, but the Easy threshold is 1500 for 6 level 5s.) I'm guessing it must have gotten surprise and then jumped on top of four characters, and then they probably couldn't use any control spells like Web on it because it was in their midst already.

That makes me want to use a couple of Bulettes next session.

[Slipperychicken]

BTW, the bulette thing only just now really registered on me. Wow, they almost died to an encounter that wasn't even Easy? (900 XP, but the Easy threshold is 1500 for 6 level 5s.) I'm guessing it must have gotten surprise and then jumped on top of four characters, and then they probably couldn't use any control spells like Web on it because it was in their midst already.

That makes me want to use a couple of Bulettes next session.

I can see a well-played Bulette wiping a level 5 party. If it hit-and-run, disappearing underground right after attacking each turn, it could wipe the floor with a party that isn't savvy enough to ready actions against it. Especially if it managed to quickly take down a squishy. A bulette would have to fail pretty hard to not get a surprise round. Though it really should be impossible to lose if the party makes use of Healing Word or something like that, since it can only deal damage once per round, meaning it can't keep more than one party member down at a time.


Also, parties in 5e are a lot more vulnerable. A lot of the game design has specifically tried to make sure parties don't just faceroll under-CRed enemies.

[MaxWilson]

I don't know, Atalas, I think you have thrown away the balance of the game by giving away too many magic items. It seems like you are letting the players run the game and you think by throwing THE Tarrasque (there is only one) at them is the only way you can get challenge back. A campaign like this isn't going to last.

In Spelljammer there is a whole planet (Falx) covered in creatures which look just like the Tarrasque. :) Good place to vacation.


I can see a well-played Bulette wiping a level 5 party. If it hit-and-run, disappearing underground right after attacking each turn, it could wipe the floor with a party that isn't savvy enough to ready actions against it. Especially if it managed to quickly take down a squishy. A bulette would have to fail pretty hard to not get a surprise round. Though it really should be impossible to lose if the party makes use of Healing Word or something like that, since it can only deal damage once per round, meaning it can't keep more than one party member down at a time.

Also, parties in 5e are a lot more vulnerable. A lot of the game design has specifically tried to make sure parties don't just faceroll under-CRed enemies.

Huh. More vulnerable compared to what? Relative to my AD&D experience, 5E parties are massive invulnerable tanks which handle overpowered encounters with aplomb. Healing Word alone, as you mention, makes them very hard to kill. Not to mention things like Revivify, Dodging, the Mobile feat, and Conjure Animals.

I probably wouldn't give a bulette much if any Stealth ability. They have Stealth +0, and I don't want a burrow speed in and of itself to become some kind of trump card. In fact I'd probably go the opposite way and have a tall, narrow fin cutting through the soil toward the PCs while I play the Jaws theme in the background.

[Slipperychicken]

Huh. More vulnerable compared to what? Relative to my AD&D experience, 5E parties are massive invulnerable tanks which handle overpowered encounters with aplomb. Healing Word alone, as you mention, makes them very hard to kill. Not to mention things like Revivify, Dodging, the Mobile feat, and Conjure Animals.

I probably wouldn't give a bulette much if any Stealth ability. They have Stealth +0, and I don't want a burrow speed in and of itself to become some kind of trump card. In fact I'd probably go the opposite way and have a tall, narrow fin cutting through the soil toward the PCs while I play the Jaws theme in the background.

I meant relative to 3.x, where PCs could be even more invincible if they took character builds or strategies off the internet.

The MM entry does describe a lot of destruction happening where bulettes go (trees falling over and such), but simply being however many feet underground, it's effectively invisible until it decides to show itself. It's not like a party can effectively strike first unless they either expect a bulette, or were somehow alerted (i.e. nature check, bulette decides to expose itself, etc).

[MaxWilson]

The MM entry does describe a lot of destruction happening where bulettes go (trees falling over and such), but simply being however many feet underground, it's effectively invisible until it decides to show itself. It's not like a party can effectively strike first unless they either expect a bulette, or were somehow alerted (i.e. nature check, bulette decides to expose itself, etc).

The party might not be able to effectively strike first, but that doesn't have to mean they're surprised. They can hear the sound of gigantic claws churning beneath the ground, somewhere nearly, slowly coming closer and closer.

I mean, it's got to mean something that a Bulette has Stealth +0. I interpret that as a clear signal that the Bulette is not an ambush predator. It's just a straight-up hunter.

[Atalas]

They sorta saw it coming. dust cloud from the road. Its opening move was biting the head off of one of the horses pulling the carraige (leading to a hilarious cry of "APPLEJACKI!" from the fighter). and it was in the midst of the party and took the Fighter out in two rounds while trying to get to the Cleric. Cleric DID get all three hits with the Tentacle Rod on it, and it rolled too low to break free, but he let it lapse in exchange for trying to deal more damage to it. Only one attack hit that time. They were basically rolling low on their attack rolls while it was actually hitting AND rolling high on damage. Just one of those days, y'know?

I already have tons of idea's for homebrew items. whether I give them out of not is another story. At one point I rolled up an artifact for each member of the party that would be part of their overall plot hook. I made everyone roll up a trinket to utilize as a plot hook too, and the cleric by sheer luck (for me) rolled a holy symbol for a god they do not know. Ohhh the fun I intend to have with that. If we las tlong enough.

[DracoKnight]

Considering basically the next thing he did with it (besides killing some gnolls and an ettin) was use it to assault his character's potential fiance (the new party member, the sorcerer), I can have the Moonblade be upset with him and not give him its full power anymore.

Especially since the Moonblade requires attunement by a Neutral Good Elf/Half-Elf.