Divine Magician Build Help

[skellig]

I really want to cast divine and arcane spells without going the theurge or archivist route.
No more than four base and/or prestige classes total.

My problem at the moment is that I cannot figure out what class or prestige class I should aim for.
Cleric has a lot of dead levels and I don't want to continue in it forever. I also don't want to lose caster levels.

Any ideas or suggestions? I thought I could try the warlock divine hybrid but I cannot remember which book it is in.

All 3.5 books are allowed. No 3rd party other than Dragon Magazine.
Level 5. 32 point buy. Magic Domain is preferred.

Divine Magician is a Cleric ACF.


UPDATE: So far the best choice I have seen is the Dweomerkeeper, from complete divine errata.
UPDATE: Three more good sounding choices: Church Inquisitor, Divine Disciple, Oracle, and Contemplative.
Changing god to Goddess Mystra. Fits the flavor for me more. More of an RAI guy so no hoki word-fu.

[Elric VIII]

An option would be to play a Cleric with the Spell domain and go into Dweomerkeeper to be able to spontaneously convert your spells into Anyspell.

[skellig]

Dweomerkeeper ...
Never heard of that one...
Where is that at? Book wise.

[Brova]

Dweomerkeeper ...
Never heard of that one...
Where is that at? Book wise.

I believe it's in the Complete Divine Web Enhancement.

I second the recommendation to play one. They're very good.

[True believer]

Dweomerkeeper ...
Never heard of that one...
Where is that at? Book wise.

in a latest version of Complete divine.
Dweomerkeeper is a lot of fun and power

[noob]

One other solution is archivist.
He can learn any spell he have a divine scroll of it and there is one cleric variant who can learn one wizard spell per level as a divine variant and so if the archivist have acces to a lot of priests with this variant he can have all the wizard spells under their divine form(also the archivist can learn all paladin spell and all ranger spells and all the druid spells and all the priest spells)
Combine that with an artisan friend and it is trivial to have all the wizard spells under their divine form.

[Brova]

One other solution is archivist.
He can learn any spell he have a divine scroll of it and there is one cleric variant who can learn one wizard spell per level as a divine variant and so if the archivist have acces to a lot of priests with this variant he can have all the wizard spells under their divine form(also the archivist can learn all paladin spell and all ranger spells and all the druid spells and all the priest spells)
Combine that with an artisan friend and it is trivial to have all the wizard spells under their divine form.

If you wanted to do that, you would just be a Wizard and use your power to scribe spells from any scroll you have personally deciphered into your spellbook, then cast any spell in the game. All without having to convince your DM that weird Cleric variants totally exist, and scrolls made by them can be found lying around.

[noob]

1: You can not cast the divine spells you wrote in scrolls with your wizard(you do not have the benefit of your spellcasting stat and it have the lowest caster level possible and you need one scroll per cast)
2: Archivists exists and are a new base class(from Heroes of Horror) with the power to learn(and then prepare it each day allowing you for example to have the best blasting spell(for all domain spells you do not need the following ACF)) any divine spell if he have a scroll of it.
3: This cleric ACF who allows to learn one wizard spell per level is called Divine Magician and is from complete mage so it completely exists.
4: Even without the existence of this ACF you still can have all the domain spells and Adepts spells(early access to many spells) and many other spells from all the divine casting classes it is not even vaguely comparable to "making a lot of scrolls of each" since you do not need one month of down time each day of adventuring and that you have to find the scrolls only once.
5: Many of the good wizard spells are in domains.
6: Archivists also have scribe scroll.

[skellig]

If you wanted to do that, you would just be a Wizard and use your power to scribe spells from any scroll you have personally deciphered into your spellbook, then cast any spell in the game. All without having to convince your DM that weird Cleric variants totally exist, and scrolls made by them can be found lying around.

I like the Divine Magician :P

So far Dweomerkeeper seems like a very good gap filler with a divine magician.

[Brova]

@Noob: I did not understand that. Like, at all. Wizards have the ability to scribe any scroll that decipher to their spellbook, and they know the spells in their spellbook. I don't see you make any argument to dispute that, and the rest of your points don't prove anything, as far as I can tell.

[Troacctid]

One other solution is archivist.
He can learn any spell he have a divine scroll of it and there is one cleric variant who can learn one wizard spell per level as a divine variant and so if the archivist have acces to a lot of priests with this variant he can have all the wizard spells under their divine form(also the archivist can learn all paladin spell and all ranger spells and all the druid spells and all the priest spells)
Combine that with an artisan friend and it is trivial to have all the wizard spells under their divine form.

I assume you mean all Wizard spells from the schools of abjuration, divination, or necromancy, because...y'know...the rules. :smalltongue:


@Noob: I did not understand that. Like, at all. Wizards have the ability to scribe any scroll that decipher to their spellbook, and they know the spells in their spellbook.

Citation?

[noob]

Text from wizards:

"A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare. "

He can prepare only spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list not the spells from his spellbook
Text from archivists:

"An archivist casts divine spells, drawn primarily from the cleric spell list although he can eventually uncover, learn, and prepare noncleric divine spells spells. Unlike clerics, archivists prepare spells from a prayerbook, a collection of copied divine spells. To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, an archivist must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an archivist's spell is 10 + the spell level + the archivist's Int modifier.

Like other spellcasters, an archivist can cast only a certain number of spells of each level per day. His base daily allotment is given in Table 5—1: The Archivist. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score (see Table 1—1 on page 8 of the Player's Handbook). He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting a good night's sleep and then spending 1 hour studying his prayerbook. The archivist decides which spells to prepare while studying.

Unlike a cleric, an archivist does not receive his daily spell complement from whatever deity or cosmic force he worships. Rather, he must seek out and collect new spells much as a wizard does, but from such esoteric sources as holy tablets, ancient steles, or other magical scriptures. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his prayerbook except for read magic, which archivists can prepare from memory.

An archivist begins play with a prayerbook containing all 0-level cleric spells plus three 1st-level cleric spells of the player's choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the archivist has, the prayerbook has an additional 1st-level cleric spell. At each new class level, the archivist gains two new cleric spells for his prayerbook; these can be of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on hisnew archivist level). At any time, an archivist can also add spells found on scrolls containing divine spells to his prayerbook, but he must make any rolls and spend the time required (see Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook on page 178 of the Player's Handbook). The archivist can learn and thus prepare nonclerical divine spells in this fashion but the two free spells he gains for advancing in class level must be selected from the cleric spell list."

So archivist can cast 100% of the divine spells.

[skellig]

Noob is right.

Wizards cannot scribe divine spells into their spellbooks. For one (flavor wise) a priest reads their prayer book and never need to scribe a spell. They just learn something new from their book or prayer.

Rules wise... I do not have the book... but honestly the above should be enough. This whole divine scroll thing is a bunch of stupidness that WOTC should just have not made period.

[Brova]

Citation?

The first bit is that Wizards can copy any spell into their spellbooks:


A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

The only restriction there is that you can't copy stuff of prohibited schools. Other than that, you can do whatever you want.

Now, there are two objections I think you can reasonably make.

First, I haven't found a piece of text making an equivalency between "spells in your spellbook" and "spells that you know". You might argue that Wizards just don't know the Divine spells they've put into their spellbook, and as such can't prepare them. I don't find that particularly compelling, mostly because there's no reason the same line of logic doesn't apply to Wizard spells you learn from scrolls. Also, the Spellcraft skill has this entry:


<DC> 15 + spell level <Effect> Learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll (wizard only). No retry for that spell until you gain at least 1 rank in Spellcraft (even if you find another source to try to learn the spell from). Requires 8 hours.

That's a indicator that you can add stuff from your scrolls or spellbooks to your list of spells known, again with no limitations as to origin. Also, my (admittedly not very intensive) reading of the rules on borrowed spellbooks indicates that you can simply prepare spells from borrowed spellbooks with a Spellcraft check. Which means that the trick totally works even given this argument, you just need a spare Wizard.

Second, the following text appears in the Wizard class description:


A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

That's a sort of strong argument that Wizards can't pull any hokey stuff with Cleric or Druid spells, but it's not perfect. First of all, even winning that still lets Wizards plunder stuff like "2nd level greater invisibility" from IIRC Teflammar Shadowlord or "4th level planar binding" from Demonologist, which is still totally sweet. Second, I don't think that there's any indication that the sentence is proscriptive rather than descriptive. Finally, there are totally rules for researching new spells as a Wizard, which would by definition not be on the Sorcerer/Wizard list.

[Troacctid]

Third objection: Rules Compendium updated the rule you quoted to add that the spell you're copying must be on your class spell list. Page 160.

[Brova]

Third objection: Rules Compendium updated the rule you quoted to add that the spell you're copying must be on your class spell list. Page 160.

That's just a slightly more official version of the second objection. Also, the primary source rule is in effect there. Rules Compendium can't override the PHB on what classes do.

[noob]

When you research a spell as a wizard you create an entirely new spell(it is forbidden to research a spell which is a copy of another spell) with the tag "sorcerer/wizard"
then it is probable the players wants to play with a GM and not an automaton and most gm will houserule that "first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above)"
meant "first decipher the Arcane magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above)" and that wizards can only copy arcane spells(which is not really a problem also it means that they can prepare sorcerer spells and the level 2 invisibility and I do not thing than early access to those spells is a too much huge problem)

[*.*.*.*]

.
First of all, even winning that still lets Wizards plunder stuff like "2nd level greater invisibility" from IIRC Teflammar Shadowlord or "4th level planar binding" from Demonologist, which is still totally sweet. Those spells come from their respective lists, this do not pull from the Sorc/Wiz list.


. Finally, there are totally rules for researching new spells as a Wizard, which would by definition not be on the Sorcerer/Wizard list.IIRC, those are completely up to the DM and are suggestions more than actual rules. A lot like custom magic item guidelines

[Brova]

When you research a spell as a wizard you create an entirely new spell(it is forbidden to research a spell which is a copy of another spell) with the tag "sorcerer/wizard"

Uh, there's no indication that the second part is true, and the first part is absolutely false. Here's the relevant quote:


A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.

Emphasis mine.

[Troacctid]

That's just a slightly more official version of the second objection. Also, the primary source rule is in effect there. Rules Compendium can't override the PHB on what classes do.

It can and does supersede previous printings of the PHB, like the one that provided the source text for your quote. The usual argument for RC not counting is based on subsequent, updated printings of the core books having the authority to override it. Do you have a citation from the premium edition of the Player's Handbook? I only have the older edition, so *shrug*.

[Brova]

It can and does supersede previous printings of the PHB, like the one that provided the source text for your quote.

You're going to have to explain that, because unless the Rules Compendium has some text allowing it to do so, my understanding is that it cannot override the primary source.

[skellig]

. Those spells come from their respective lists, this do not pull from the Sorc/Wiz list.

IIRC, those are completely up to the DM and are suggestions more than actual rules. A lot like custom magic item guidelines

Even if they weren't. Researched normal spells are still being researched by a Wizard. Thus making them inherently Wizard spells.


You're going to have to explain that, because unless the Rules Compendium has some text allowing it to do so, my understanding is that it cannot override the primary source.

That is the very definition of an errata. Errata supersede, if the DM allows. In essence the DM can change all the rules in the PHB through the PHBs own wording.
Excluding the DM god mode. Errata are corrections to or additions to a text.

[Troacctid]

You're going to have to explain that, because unless the Rules Compendium has some text allowing it to do so, my understanding is that it cannot override the primary source.

Yep, that's exactly the case!


The book you hold in your hands is the definitive guide for how to play the 3.5 revision of the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Roleplaying Game. Years in the making, it gathers resources from a wide variety of supplements, rules errata, and rules clarifications to provide an authoritative guide for playing the D&D game. It updates and elucidates the rules, as well as expanding on them in ways that make it more fun and easier to play. When a preexisting core book or supplement differs with the rules herein, Rules Compendium is meant to take precedence.

Even those who say the RC doesn't count will generally concede that this constitutes an exception to the general rule for primary sources. (And, of course, exceptions have the highest precedence in the rules hierarchy.) Of course, since it pretty clearly specifies preexisting sources, it can't claim to have any authority against a book that came after it, such as the premium editions of the core books.

[skellig]

Uh, there's no indication that the second part is true, and the first part is absolutely false. Here's the relevant quote:



Emphasis mine.

Wizard creating a spell makes it a wizard spell. Pretty obvious. DM has rule over those kind of spells. They are also more costly than other spells. Mainly due to the time it takes to make one. So unless your DM is waving his hand on this then I would assume it would be near pointless to create a new spell for every other classes spell list. What are the Official rules for making a spell or is it a DM only thing for making a spell? I see rules for a DM but nothing for a player, other than epic spellcasting.

I am a RAI guy.

[Brova]

Yep, that's exactly the case!

Okay, so it does appear that you are correct. Of course, Wizards still get all the discounted spells from random lists. Like haste on the Trapsmith list at 1st level. Or I assume a bunch of stuff from the Bard. And early animate dead. And why did they fix only the interesting part of that (where Wizards get all the spells) but not the broken part (where Wizards plunder low level spells)?

On a closely related note, the Rules Compendium is probably the worst D&D book. Seriously, it's a book of errata to the core rules that changes minor things you don't care about which aren't broken (for example: spontaneous casters are now defined by the rules), but not things that are broken (shapechange) or things you care about (Fighters). Also, there's at least one instance of the Rules Compendium statement on something not carrying over the FAQ answer on the same thing (the difference engine). Oh, and it's an obscure book you have to pay for, so I assume upwards of 90% of groups are playing various minor things wrong.

Seriously, why would you do any of the things they did in this book? How did this get published?

[PseudoPanda]

I'd say a good route is to go Cloistered Cleric from Unearthed Arcana to get a wider spell list and the Knowledge domain to make up for the domain lost from Divine Magician. Magic domain lets you activate spell completion and trigger items as a Wizard of 1/2 your level so that's nifty for casting spells that are unavailable to you. I'd suggest domain collecting to get more good spells available, Complete Divine has a few good classes for this with Church Inquisitor (Inquisition domain), Divine Oracle (Oracle domain) and Contemplative (domain of your choice at level 1 and again at 6). Divine Disciple from Player's guide to Faerun is similar to Contemplative and gets you a free domain at level 4.

Some good domains for your goal are Spell, Envy, Time and Trickery. If you do go the domain collection route Spontaneous Domains from Complete Champion is a feat worth checking out.


An option would be to play a Cleric with the Spell domain and go into Dweomerkeeper to be able to spontaneously convert your spells into Anyspell.

That's not that useful, really. Anyspell has a 15 minute casting time so it's not really something you will be using on the fly that much. If you want to be using it for a lot of different spells then it's easier to just go with the Initiate of Mystra feat or the Spontaneous Domain ACF from Player's Handbook II. That is, if your DM ignores that the spell takes your domain slot meaning you can only have one prepared at a time. I feel your mantle of spells is better suited for other spells that you need in a pinch

[skellig]

Okay, so it does appear that you are correct. Of course, Wizards still get all the discounted spells from random lists. Like haste on the Trapsmith list at 1st level. Or I assume a bunch of stuff from the Bard. And early animate dead. And why did they fix only the interesting part of that (where Wizards get all the spells) but not the broken part (where Wizards plunder low level spells)?

On a closely related note, the Rules Compendium is probably the worst D&D book. Seriously, it's a book of errata to the core rules that changes minor things you don't care about which aren't broken (for example: spontaneous casters are now defined by the rules), but not things that are broken (shapechange) or things you care about (Fighters). Also, there's at least one instance of the Rules Compendium statement on something not carrying over the FAQ answer on the same thing (the difference engine). Oh, and it's an obscure book you have to pay for, so I assume upwards of 90% of groups are playing various minor things wrong.

Seriously, why would you do any of the things they did in this book? How did this get published?

I think they fixed a lot of cheese with the book. Obviously not all of it but I would say about 30-50%... maybe.. Polymorph was a big win in this book. They fixed some of its problems. I thought they mentioned shapechange as well in that but I am probably wrong.

[Brova]

@Dweomerkeeper: My personal favorite is Mystra with Magic and Spell domains. You don't really care about Mantle of Spells, because once you get Supernatural Spell you can abuse permanency, limited wish, and awaken as much as you want. Then you take Hathran for spontaneous casting. And Initiate of Mystra because obviously.


I think they fixed a lot of cheese with the book. Obviously not all of it but I would say about 30-50%... maybe.. Polymorph was a big win in this book. They fixed some of its problems. I thought they mentioned shapechange as well in that but I am probably wrong.

It doesn't look like they fixed anything. shapechange still has the broken bit about how you gain supernatural and extraordinary abilities but only lose supernatural ones. And it still replaces stats. You still get to be immune to damage. I'm not going to read through all the stuff they've changed to see if you still get the real ultimate power you did at release, but it looks like you do. And honestly, shapechange is really low hanging fruit as far as "things you can fix" goes.

[Troacctid]

Okay, so it does appear that you are correct. Of course, Wizards still get all the discounted spells from random lists. Like haste on the Trapsmith list at 1st level. Or I assume a bunch of stuff from the Bard. And early animate dead. And why did they fix only the interesting part of that (where Wizards get all the spells) but not the broken part (where Wizards plunder low level spells)?

On a closely related note, the Rules Compendium is probably the worst D&D book. Seriously, it's a book of errata to the core rules that changes minor things you don't care about which aren't broken (for example: spontaneous casters are now defined by the rules), but not things that are broken (shapechange) or things you care about (Fighters). Also, there's at least one instance of the Rules Compendium statement on something not carrying over the FAQ answer on the same thing (the difference engine). Oh, and it's an obscure book you have to pay for, so I assume upwards of 90% of groups are playing various minor things wrong.

Seriously, why would you do any of the things they did in this book? How did this get published?

I don't think learning spells off any list is particularly interesting, and anyway, it should be blatantly obvious why they changed it--the intent was clear for Wizards to only get Wizard spells in their books, but it wasn't explicitly stated, so they explicitly stated it. Also, I can't find any rule that says you copy the spell into your spellbook at the same level as it is on the scroll. (That would have odd implications for scrolls of heightened spells.) One assumes haste would go into the Wizard's spellbook as a Wizard spell, not a Trapsmith spell, making it 3rd level, not 1st level.

I realize it was probably a rhetorical question, but the goal of the RC was to clarify and consolidate rules from other sources while making only minor updates--not to rebalance 3.5 from the ground up (again). Most of the "errata" consists of codifying things that players were already doing intuitively, like replacing "Wizards" with "spellcasters" in the rules for preparing arcane spells. The only really questionable change, IMO, was the full-round sneak attack thing.

[Brova]

One assumes haste would go into the Wizard's spellbook as a Wizard spell, not a Trapsmith spell, making it 3rd level, not 1st level.

I don't know that it's clear that's how it works. It only says that you have to have the spell on your list, not that the version of on your list has to be the one that gets copied. Trapsmiths have a version of haste that is 1st level. Nothing in the Rules Compendium stops you from learning that one.


I realize it was probably a rhetorical question, but the goal of the RC was to clarify and consolidate rules from other sources while making only minor updates--not to rebalance 3.5 from the ground up (again).

But why would you want to do that? Making small changes has the same cost (I have to track down the damn book and figure out what they are) but massively lower benefits (namely, I can't expect that a character casting polymorph will work the same in two different games). If you are going to change things, you change the things that are bad for the game, particularly if you are making people pay for the changes.

[Troacctid]

I don't know that it's clear that's how it works. It only says that you have to have the spell on your list, not that the version of on your list has to be the one that gets copied. Trapsmiths have a version of haste that is 1st level. Nothing in the Rules Compendium stops you from learning that one.

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing that says you learn it as a 1st level spell, and Haste is a 3rd level spell for Wizards. In the absence of a rule to the contrary, it's reasonable to assume it defaults to the spell's normal level for your class. I'd figure it the same way for a scroll of a metamagic'd spell--you learn the original spell, not the metamagic version. Either way, it seems like something the rules don't cover, much like the hardness of a carrot or the stats for a baby, so we can't draw any concrete conclusions based on the RAW. I mean, if you know of any rules clarifying the matter...?