Cleric 1/Bard X Build advice

[Jakinbandw]

Is strength worth it for a life cleric/ Bard that is planning to be on the back lines buffing. I'm trying to decide if I should have a 15 in str to use plate. It sounds tempting, but then again, I'm going to be in the back so str does nothing else. On the other hand I could have better int, or wis or even dex, all of which would be handy in multiple situations.

[RealCheese]

Honestly, get the plate without having the str. With proficiency you can wear it, the strength limit only lowers your speed. If you are on the backlines, what do you need speed for anyways?

[AmbientRaven]

well i often break it down

Fulplate
Req: 15 str, 2500gp gives 18ac

Half-Plate
Req: 14 Dex, 750gp (from memory), gives 17ac but it also ups initiative by 2, dex save is one of the best in the game, and allows use of ranged weapons.

I personally often go for the dex based aspect. Cheaper, better over all save stat is increased and, i dislike the idea of tromping around in full-plate

[Citan]

Is strength worth it for a life cleric/ Bard that is planning to be on the back lines buffing. I'm trying to decide if I should have a 15 in str to use plate. It sounds tempting, but then again, I'm going to be in the back so str does nothing else. On the other hand I could have better int, or wis or even dex, all of which would be handy in multiple situations.
There is no hesitation to have. Drop STR and buff DEX instead.
You can have 17 (best Medium) AC instead of 18 (best Heavy), so you lose 1 AC. You gain for that much better Initiative, much better saving throw against most damage dealing spells, ... Basically better everything. You can even start with second best Medium Armor (AC 16) and later take Medium Armor Master feat if you really want (so you can have 18 armor without Stealth disadvantage). Or, even better, take Shield Master (if you use a Shield) which is great for defense.

AND, since you'll be DEX based, you can also use bows/crossbows if you'd like (although you have Sacred Flame so not sure of the utility but you never know).

You always have Command at your disposition to try and keep enemies away. Worst case, Sanctuary yourself if you're in a pinch (and have to focus on healing/buffing anyways).

You can also use Magic Secrets to pick some non-concentration defensive spells (Shield, Mirror Image, Mage Armor) if you feel you're lacking survivability although it's a bit of a waste of its potential. Or better, dip into 3 levels of Warlock/Sorcerer for many additional benefits (such as Twinning Shield of Faith or Haste, or getting a Familiar with Magic Resistance and Free Mage armor for example).

[Socko525]

Chiming in as I'm currently playing a Bard 1/Cleric 1/Bard X (currently 2). I was originally looking at full plate, but I decided on half-plate instead (for basically every reason listed here).

So far things have been great! At the level we're currently at, there hasn't been anything that's hit me that would have missed if I'd had a 18 AC vs. 17.

[Citan]

Chiming in as I'm currently playing a Bard 1/Cleric 1/Bard X (currently 2). I was originally looking at full plate, but I decided on half-plate instead (for basically every reason listed here).

So far things have been great! At the level we're currently at, there hasn't been anything that's hit me that would have missed if I'd had a 18 AC vs. 17.
Hey! :) Thanks for your confirmation.
Since you're around, I was wondering: for ranged attacks do you always use a cantrip or do you keep a bow for physical attacks? If so, what are the reasons why you'd prefer bow instead of Sacred Flame?
Thanks in advance if you have the time to answer. :)

[Socko525]

Hey! :) Thanks for your confirmation.
Since you're around, I was wondering: for ranged attacks do you always use a cantrip or do you keep a bow for physical attacks? If so, what are the reasons why you'd prefer bow instead of Sacred Flame?
Thanks in advance if you have the time to answer. :)

I have a crossbow but I've yet to actually use it. Sacred flame has been my go to as i can use a shield with it (I've decided to also bring an arcance component pouch in addition to instruments, so I can continue to use the shield in most situations). If I need some heavier damage, I use guiding bolt. Having hit 2nd level spells, Heat Metal is another really useful spell to have for consistent damage with no save.

[Citan]

I have a crossbow but I've yet to actually use it. Sacred flame has been my go to as i can use a shield with it (I've decided to also bring an arcance component pouch in addition to instruments, so I can continue to use the shield in most situations). If I need some heavier damage, I use guiding bolt. Having hit 2nd level spells, Heat Metal is another really useful spell to have for consistent damage with no save.
Hey, thanks for your quick answer, which confirm what I thought. No real point in using anything else than Sacred Flame (especially since radiant damage is rarely resisted), maybe for other spellcasters it could matter (like you know only Firebolt and meet fire-immune enemy)...

Heat Metal, didn't have a chance to use it yet (soon I hope when I can play my multiclassed Bard) but it seems really OP... Especially because of the Charybde and Scylla aspect for target: remove your armor and take hits from my friends, or keep it and burn from the inside. With auto-success and scalable damage to boot. How wrecked, I love that. :)

EDIT: @OP forgot something in my answer to you: if you plan on going DEX-build, and even moreso if you plan on using a Shield, I suggest you start as Cleric. Why?
It's a matter choosing proficiency between WIS and DEX. Considering that...
- you'll have a low WIS (unless I'm mistaken, you take Life Cleric for lvl 1 benefit only).
- WIS saving throws are used in many nasty spells.
- you'll have a high DEX (since you'll use it as main stat).
- Shield Master allows you to add Shield AC bonus to DEX saving throw (at least 2, maybe more if you find Magic Shield).

Starting Cleric means you'll have good saving throws in both DEX and WIS. You also start with less proficiencies and skills though, so it may be a hard choice.
Starting Bard means you'll be extra good at DEX saving throws, but just passable at WIS. If you plan on taking Resilient later then no problem. Otherwise, you may feel it later.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hey! :) Thanks for your confirmation.
Since you're around, I was wondering: for ranged attacks do you always use a cantrip or do you keep a bow for physical attacks? At lower levels, with a high dex your use of a bow might yield you more damage.

Presuming you have gone with a Dex build, you get plus tohit and plus damage to arrow attacks. There is no save versus your attack, while there is for Sacred flame.

Sacred flame's DC (dex save) is based on your wisdom and proficiency. With the 27 point build and let's say 16 in Wis, DC is 8+2+3, 13. For a 15 wis, it is 12.

Depending on the monster, they may make a lot of saves.

With your long bow or short bow, and that 16 dex, you are +3 to hit and +3 to damage. No half damage, and no save. You rminimum damage becomes 4, not one.

So that's one way to look at it.
Down side is that you can't use a shield.

A way around that: for this dex based cleric, use Javelins as your standard weapon. You can melee or throw, and you get your dex bonus on the missile weapon. You say you are in the back? It's one way to go. Disadvantage is that it's not very long range, so beyond short range use Sacred Flame as your missile weapon and then javelin. My cleric carries three javelins on his back in a case/quiver.

Sacred flame: dmg - 1d8, and savable with dex, is quite swingy. When you get to 5th level, and start doing 2d8, and your DC goes up due to your proficiency going up, and your wis maybe bumping (what did you use the ASI for?) it starts to be better than a bow.

In the good news is that it is radiant damage, which is rarely resisted and a few kinds of undead are vulnerable to.

[Slipperychicken]

Is strength worth it for a life cleric/ Bard that is planning to be on the back lines buffing. I'm trying to decide if I should have a 15 in str to use plate. It sounds tempting, but then again, I'm going to be in the back so str does nothing else. On the other hand I could have better int, or wis or even dex, all of which would be handy in multiple situations.

I think you'll be best off neglecting strength, having 12-14 dex, and picking up half plate once you can afford it. Your AC will only be 1 lower, but you'll have good scores in constitution and your casting stat. Remember that you need to have both wis and charisma at 13 to meet the multiclass requirements. Between that and keeping up good dex and con, Putting a 15 in strength would just stretch your ability points far too thinly.


Remember, if you get your shield fitted with a holy symbol (much like crusaders did with crosses IRL), you can use your shield hand for both somatic and divine focus components. That is to say a cleric may sword-and-board while casting cleric spells. It's implicit in the rules for somatic components, and sage advice confirmed it a while back.

[Citan]

At lower levels, with a high dex your use of a bow might yield you more damage.

Presuming you have gone with a Dex build, you get plus tohit and plus damage to arrow attacks. There is no save versus your attack, while there is for Sacred flame.

Sacred flame's DC (dex save) is based on your wisdom and proficiency. With the 27 point build and let's say 16 in Wis, DC is 8+2+3, 13. For a 15 wis, it is 12.

Depending on the monster, they may make a lot of saves.

With your long bow or short bow, and that 16 dex, you are +3 to hit and +3 to damage. No half damage, and no save. You rminimum damage becomes 4, not one.

A way around that: for this dex based cleric, use Javelins as your standard weapon. You can melee or throw, and you get your dex bonus on the missile weapon. You say you are in the back? It's one way to go. Disadvantage is that it's not very long range, so beyond short range use Sacred Flame as your missile weapon and then javelin. My cleric carries three javelins on his back in a case/quiver.

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation. What I don't understand though is, monsters have very often AC above 12 also no (not yet familiar with 5e bestiary)? So, considering the case of a monster with such an AC and WIS 14 (so +2) and me having 16 in both DEX and WIS...
If I attack with a bow I have bonus to hit of +2 (proficiency) +3(DEX) against its AC, making the minimum to attain 7.
If I launch a Sacred Flame, its has to get a saving throw against DC 13 with a +2 bonus making the minimum dice roll 11.
Is that right?

Also, funny thing you thought about Javelin. I would have rather considered a Hand crossbow, also base Bard proficiency (although not if multiclassing Bard unless houserule :/) but you don't have to worry about retrieving it since ammunition ammo, and you can use it with Sharpshooter+Crossbow Expert combo which makes it a very solid basic attack. :)

[Corey]

Honestly, get the plate without having the str. With proficiency you can wear it, the strength limit only lowers your speed. If you are on the backlines, what do you need speed for anyways?

I imagine it depends in part on whether your Bard is played as having a need to be stealthy.

[Corey]

EDIT: @OP forgot something in my answer to you: if you plan on going DEX-build, and even moreso if you plan on using a Shield, I suggest you start as Cleric. Why?
It's a matter choosing proficiency between WIS and DEX. Considering that...
- you'll have a low WIS (unless I'm mistaken, you take Life Cleric for lvl 1 benefit only).
- WIS saving throws are used in many nasty spells.
- you'll have a high DEX (since you'll use it as main stat).
- Shield Master allows you to add Shield AC bonus to DEX saving throw (at least 2, maybe more if you find Magic Shield).



Some counterarguments:

If you're multi-classing, then your WIS is at least 13, which isn't that far behind your DEX.
If your race is half-elf, you have some defense against some WIS-save threats, namely the Charm ones.
Bard abilities offer some defense against WIS-save threats (I forget the mix of Charm and Fear in that).
Hopefully at high levels you'll be Hero's Feasting before some big fights.
If you take your WIS at 13 initially, it's a great candidate for the Resilient feat at high levels.

[Jakinbandw]

My current build with point buy is 10 star, 10 dex, 10 con, 14 int, 14 wis, and 16 Cha. I need a minimum 13 wis to milticlass. There is no wizard in the party and the only other faster is a Druid, so I'm looking to pick up the int skill slack.

After reading the penalties for full plate, what are people's thoughts I picking up mobile to offset the speed loss. That way I could have high int, and everything while still maxing out at 20 ac and moving 30ft per round

[Corey]

If I attack with a bow I have bonus to hit of +2 (proficiency) +3(DEX) against its AC, making the minimum to attain 7.
If I launch a Sacred Flame, its has to get a saving throw against DC 13 with a +2 bonus making the minimum dice roll 11.
Is that right?


So in that situation:


14 out of 20 rolls are a good outcome for you in a bow attack (and 1 of the 20 can crit).
10 out of 20 rolls are a good outcome for you in the cantrip attack (and there's no chance of a crit).


But on the other hand:

Cantrips don't clutter your hands to interfere with spell-casting.
Cantrips don't clutter your hands to interfere with shield use.
At high levels, cantrips will do more damage than bows. E.g., from Levels 11-16, Sacred Flame damage is 3d8, which is ahead of what a single arrow even from a magic bow is likely to do.
Sacred Flame ignores cover, while bows are affected by it.

[Citan]

Some counterarguments:

If you're multi-classing, then your WIS is at least 13, which isn't that far behind your DEX.
If your race is half-elf, you have some defense against some WIS-save threats, namely the Charm ones.
Bard abilities offer some defense against WIS-save threats (I forget the mix of Charm and Fear in that).
Hopefully at high levels you'll be Hero's Feasting before some big fights.
If you take your WIS at 13 initially, it's a great candidate for the Resilient feat at high levels.

Very solid arguments indeed, except the Hero's Feasting, I don't think you can count on it as a principle (especially since OP seems to be Bard as main... Unless he uses Magic Secrets on this one).
Although I already mentioned the Resilient choice. :)


My current build with point buy is 10 star, 10 dex, 10 con, 14 int, 14 wis, and 16 Cha. I need a minimum 13 wis to milticlass. There is no wizard in the party and the only other faster is a Druid, so I'm looking to pick up the int skill slack.

After reading the penalties for full plate, what are people's thoughts I picking up mobile to offset the speed loss. That way I could have high int, and everything while still maxing out at 20 ac and moving 30ft per round
Well, with such a stat array I'd say it's the wisest choice indeed. :) With the added benefit of Mobile is that by RAW the "no opportunity attack from hit enemy" works with melee attack spells. So unless (until?) you take Shillelagh/Magic Stone, you can still make some damage to an enemy before getting away, instead of having to use your action on Disengage. :)

So you'll go Bard as first class I suppose? You'll have 4 ASI to play with. 2 to get CHA up to 20, 2 remaining. If you don't have any specifics, may I suggest you keep one for the Resilient: WIS? This way, you could arrange your stats to have 11 CON / 13 WIS at start and use the last feat to get Resilient:CON.

If however you wanted to get some other feats such as Warcaster or Spellsniper then your current array is the best. :)

Sorry I forgot you planned on topping at 15th lvl. So your array is the best. You'll have one Feat available. I'd suggest Shield Master if you plan on shield, otherwise Warcaster, Spellsniper or Inspiring Leader: first one to better keep concentration, second one to be extra good with your ranged cantrips/spells, third one to greatly help your party (especially if you're the only CHA-based character). :) But there many other good choices for RP also if you feel you're strong enough in combat.

Anyways, the golden rule: have fun (and teamplay ^^)! :)