Optimising a party

[EastbySoutheast]

So optimisation interests me in D&D as at times D&D can be fun maths with role play and character development with friends but others you can make something that makes the DM quake in their boots.

I'm going to be honest that I'm used to 3.5 with the amount of variation with character building you can have when building an optimum character. So I'm still getting my head around 5e.

Anyway I'll get to my points.
A lot of the time when my group plays we have a few individuals who stand out in combat as performing better than others in their rolls within combat so we have decided that three of us will try to optimise our next characters not only individually but also as a group.
The plan is to develop set plays that we know what to do given certain situations, formations etc.

Does anyone in the playground have any ideas of what builds, set plays or combinations we should be looking for?
Also any examples of where you or your groups have done things that have synergized well would be appreciated.

The ideas we've had so far build wise are:
Sorcerer 17/Warlock 3
Rogue 5/Fighter 15
Barbarian X/maybe something else

Comments, judgements or opinions are always welcome

[SharkForce]

with fighter, I can't see much reason to stop at 15. either go to 11, 17, or 20. if the idea is for a mixed rogue/fighter, I'd just go to fighter 11, *maybe* 12, the rest rogue. battlemaster has the most synergy with rogue, btw... gives you a chance to attack on enemy's turn, which means sneak attack twice per round potentially.

[MaxWilson]

One party that's working really well at my table is:

1.) Variant Human (Lucky) Urchin Paladin of Devotion 7/Wild Sorc 4 - healer, tank, urban spy
2.) Half-elf Outlander Chthulhu Warlock 2/Lore Bard 9 (Spell Sniper) - healer, summoner, face/skillmonkey, scout, artillery
3.) Noble Wood Elf Shadow Monk 11 (Mobile, Alert) - scout, archer, summons-buffer, face, assassin/stunner
4.) Half-elf Sage Cthulhu Warlock 2/Necromancer 9 (Inspiring Leader, Spell Sniper) - "archer", skillmonkey, face, summoner, artillery, counterspeller

(You can mostly ignore the necromancer's warlock dip, that was just because he rolled high Charisma and is designed to work also as a solo character, and because telepathy lets him give Inspiring Leadership +14 HP to all his skeletons and all summons. But the party would work about as well if he were a straight Necromancer 11.)

The two synergies that I want to specifically call out as something you might want to replicate are the paladin's class levels and the lore bard + shadow monk duo.

1.) The paladin

The paladin was a late addition to the party who has actually been transformative. Before his arrival, the party was mainly a mobile hit-and-run party which "expended" distance and expendable minions instead of party HP, but the paladin's arrival means they now have a melee-capable character who can get up to AC 28 (full plate + shield + Defense style = AC 21, +2 for Shield of Faith, +5 on reaction for Shield) plus using his bonus actions as necessary to Sanctuary himself or Quickened Mirror Image/Quickened Blur (instead of Shield of Faith). He tanks in a chokepoint and/or grapples enemies while the rest of the party (including longbow skeletons) hits things from range, and he can run away if necessary thanks to Expeditious Retreat. Not only is he great at tanking with AC, he also gives everyone including himself +5 on saving throws and he can cast Bless when the situation warrants it. In an extreme situation, such as fighting bunch of beholders or medusas, this guy can be getting up to +1d4 (Bless) + 5 (Charisma) + 1d8 (Bardic Inspiration) + advantage (Tides of Chaos/Wild Sorc) + "advantage" (Lucky reroll) + possible Proficiency (Wis/Cha) on his saves, and of course he and everyone close to him is flat-out immune to charm effects including friendly fire from the bard's Hypnotic Pattern. Because he has such a fantastic AC, healing is very efficient on him, and since the bard's Aura of Vitality is itself very efficient already, the party expends very few resources on any fight with monsters who are just thuggish sacks of HP. Currently he is relatively poor at actually doing damage though, probably the worst DPR in the party, especially with only Str 16.

Future plans: he's aiming for Paladin 9 (to increase his healing options: Aura of Healing, Revivify, etc.), Sorcerer 9 (to make him an effective counterspeller, artillery piece and summoner: Animate Object, Cone of Cold), and Warlock 2 (send DPR through the roof with Quickened Agonizing Eldritch Blast, free up 1st level sorcerer known spell for Expeditious Retreat and convert it to Enhance Ability instead for versatility, and take advantage of the Shadow Monk's Darkness with Devil's Sight; also then she won't have to spend time casting Darkvision on him).

2.) The Shadow Monk/Lore Bard


Let me just say, Pass Without Trace is amazing. Both tactically (start in a tactically advantageous position and gain a surprise round) and whatever comes above tactics but below strategy ("operationally"? gaining intelligence about what enemies are out there and where they are).

That being said, the party has learned the hard way that it doesn't pay to scout alone. You can always get detected by something that bypasses Stealth like an Intellect Devourer, and with only one scout you could blow a saving throw or a Perception check. With two people, if one person makes their save against a Mind Blast they can drag the other to safety until it wears off, and if one person doesn't spot a threat when actively looking (active Perception) the other might still see it. It is just better and safer to have two scouts than one, and the Shadow Monk + Lore Bard(lock) are that team.

Initially they mostly avoided contact with enemies, but they've learned to work together to the point where they are comfortable taking on largish threats, e.g. 3 Frost Giants (quadruple Deadly, or double Deadly for the whole party) without calling in the rest of the party for backup. The essence of the approach is:

1.) Monk has pre-cast Pass Without Trace;
2.) Enemy detected thanks to bard's Perception Expertise;
3.) Sneak up to within 200' or so of the enemy, somewhere where there is total or partial cover for the bard to hide behind;
4.) Bard casts Conjure Animals hoping for 8 king cobras (Giant Poisonous Snake Dex 18 = +4 Stealth);
5.) Bard stays 200' back while Shadow Monk escorts cobras within range of giants (cobras' +14 to Stealth vs. giant's passive Perception of 13 means auto-success);
6.) During the surprise round, all cobras attack with advantage while the monk casts Darkness; typically inflicts 70+ DPR. The bard adds another 20-ish DPR via Repelling Eldritch Blast, as well as disrupting the enemy formation/possibly pushing giants off cliffs/etc.
7.) During the first real round, the monk does hit-and-run with Stunning Strike to control the action economy; meanwhile the cobras attack with advantage (thanks to Darkness + blindsight) and probably finish off a giant. The giants hit the cobras back about 50% of the time, and each hit kills a cobra, so at least 4 cobras are still alive for round two depending on initiative and attack rolls/saves.
8.) During the second real round, there's probably one giant still alive and unstunned, but half the cobras are down. The monk gets defensive advantage due to Alert + Darkness and can still stun. The odds are still in the PCs' favor.

Play proceeds from there, and if things go poorly (e.g. lucky crit on the monk when cornered) the PCs still have a good chance to retreat without dying thanks to Deflect Missiles + Step of the Wind.

The Lore Bard is also just one level away from becoming a terrific Counterspeller.

[Naanomi]

Parties can be generally optimized (ie:
Planning to make sure all roles covered, try to get everyone perception, etc) or specialize... I prefer the latter

Team stealth: everyone rogue dips and focuses on stealth abilities and magic... Keep the party hidden and sneak past most challenges, ambush hit-run-hide targets that have to be downed

Team flight: dragon sorcerer, halfling pteradon rider, tempest cleric, moon Druid air-elemental... Late to fully be realized but the airborn brigade!

Team tank: ancients shield/protection pally, sentinel/polearm battle master, heavy armor specialist life cleric, hp maximized barbarian... Good luck hurting your formation meaningfully, every tanking method covered!

Team undead army: necromancer, death cleric, oathbreaker, (valor bard? Hunter ranger with undead racial enemy?)... Summon those skeletons and buff them to the max! Valor bard for spot buffs or ranger to track down control undead targets and put down errant minions.

Team talk: paladin, bard, warlock, sorcerer... Everyone take social skills, and backgrounds with social connections; talk your way out of every problem; not bad setup for ass kicking should diplomacy fail anyways

Team caster: wizard, cleric, Druid, bard... Have every spell list, so every solution to every problem somewhere in there. Savor those long rests though...

[MaxWilson]

Parties can be generally optimized (ie:
Planning to make sure all roles covered, try to get everyone perception, etc) or specialize... I prefer the latter

Good point. And the most fun happens when the party is both! The party I posted in #3 is Team Stealth (to use your terminology) + Team Mobile (everyone can move at least 120' per round) + Team Summoner + Team Ranged Combat but is also pretty generalist outside those specific niches.

[Malifice]

1.) The paladin

The paladin was a late addition to the party who has actually been transformative. Before his arrival, the party was mainly a mobile hit-and-run party which "expended" distance and expendable minions instead of party HP, but the paladin's arrival means they now have a melee-capable character who can get up to AC 28 (full plate + shield + Defense style = AC 21, +2 for Shield of Faith, +5 on reaction for Shield) plus using his bonus actions as necessary to Sanctuary himself or Quickened Mirror Image/Quickened Blur (instead of Shield of Faith). He tanks in a chokepoint and/or grapples enemies while the rest of the party (including longbow skeletons) hits things from range, and he can run away if necessary thanks to Expeditious Retreat. Not only is he great at tanking with AC, he also gives everyone including himself +5 on saving throws and he can cast Bless when the situation warrants it. In an extreme situation, such as fighting bunch of beholders or medusas, this guy can be getting up to +1d4 (Bless) + 5 (Charisma) + 1d8 (Bardic Inspiration) + advantage (Tides of Chaos/Wild Sorc) + "advantage" (Lucky reroll) + possible Proficiency (Wis/Cha) on his saves, and of course he and everyone close to him is flat-out immune to charm effects including friendly fire from the bard's Hypnotic Pattern. Because he has such a fantastic AC, healing is very efficient on him, and since the bard's Aura of Vitality is itself very efficient already, the party expends very few resources on any fight with monsters who are just thuggish sacks of HP. Currently he is relatively poor at actually doing damage though, probably the worst DPR in the party, especially with only Str 16.

I find that hard to believe as a Paladin. He doesn't use divine smite often?

Like the build by the way. Am looking at a Paladin/ caster at present (elven warrior mage type) to take advantage of shield and mirror image spells/ fullplate/ defence style.

[Slipperychicken]

Does anyone in the playground have any ideas of what builds, set plays or combinations we should be looking for?
Also any examples of where you or your groups have done things that have synergized well would be appreciated.


Before you start hammering out builds, you'll need to create goals for your party's build. That is, a list of actions they should be capable of or good at, or perhaps qualities they ought to possess. Then you can use it as a scorecard or checklist of sorts to measure the party's effectiveness and versatility.


To start, I'll go spew out some examples of "must-haves" for an optimal party. This is by no means a complete list:

Overcome deadly combats through violence
Survive deadly combat encounters long enough to overcome them
Reliably deal with opponents which have [insert ability here] (i.e. flying, spellcasting, resistance/immunity to nonmagical weapons, invisibility, burrowing, mind-control, regen, etc)
Quickly recover the party's hit points outside of rest
Cure status effects and ailments (curses, diseases, paralyzation, petrification, poisoned) within a reasonable period of time
Deal with enemies which grapple or restrain party members.
Deal with conditions of low light and magical darkness
Deal with being suddenly immersed in water [or other harmful environmental effect, like fire or acid]
Revive dead or disabled party members in a timely fashion
Detect most ambushes and traps before they can harm the party
Overcome traps and other hazards once they are detected
Detect and identify magic items and effects
Quickly and safely cross large distances within a plane of existence
Reliably and quickly travel between planes of existence
Mitigate the risk of being ambushed during short and long rests

[MaxWilson]

I find that hard to believe as a Paladin. He doesn't use divine smite often?

Like the build by the way. Am looking at a Paladin/ caster at present (elven warrior mage type) to take advantage of shield and mirror image spells/ fullplate/ defence style.

Nope, he doesn't really Smite. It's too inefficient. Since the party is often going up against 500+ HP of enemies in a single encounter, blowing a bunch of spell points just to do an extra 50-odd HP of damage doesn't really make sense. He prefers to spend those SP on defensive spells like Shield or Quickened Blur instead. There may be RP reasons for that as well: he's pretty happy playing a support role by attracting hostile attention, doesn't much care if others are out-damaging him.

[Nifft]

Parties can be generally optimized (ie:
Planning to make sure all roles covered, try to get everyone perception, etc) or specialize... I prefer the latter

Team stealth: everyone rogue dips and focuses on stealth abilities and magic... Keep the party hidden and sneak past most challenges, ambush hit-run-hide targets that have to be downed

Team flight: dragon sorcerer, halfling pteradon rider, tempest cleric, moon Druid air-elemental... Late to fully be realized but the airborn brigade!

Team tank: ancients shield/protection pally, sentinel/polearm battle master, heavy armor specialist life cleric, hp maximized barbarian... Good luck hurting your formation meaningfully, every tanking method covered!

Team undead army: necromancer, death cleric, oathbreaker, (valor bard? Hunter ranger with undead racial enemy?)... Summon those skeletons and buff them to the max! Valor bard for spot buffs or ranger to track down control undead targets and put down errant minions.

Team talk: paladin, bard, warlock, sorcerer... Everyone take social skills, and backgrounds with social connections; talk your way out of every problem; not bad setup for ass kicking should diplomacy fail anyways

Team caster: wizard, cleric, Druid, bard... Have every spell list, so every solution to every problem somewhere in there. Savor those long rests though...

Great post.

Personally, I love ThemeTeam™ games.

Team Long Range: Archery guy (probably Ranger), Warlock with Eldritch Spear, Sentinel / Polearm battle master, and ... I dunno, another blocker, or a skirmisher?

[charlesk]

2.) The Shadow Monk/Lore Bard



I really enjoyed reading this because we just finished the Dragon Queen campaign and part of it, near the end, featured my character and our DM's favorite NPC doing a bit of scouting and stealth work.

His character is a shadow monk / rogue multiclass. I play a Great Old One warlock / lore bard. :)

[Reltzik]

Look. Optimizing a dnd party is pretty much the same regardless of edition.

First, you need the rules lawyer. Someone who will call the DM on hand-waving and fudging and make sure the outcome for the party is optimal.

Next, you need the meticulous planner and tactician. Someone who can do the hard thinking and analysis that isn't fun for most players and then suggest to them their best actions.

Then you need a second meticulous planner and tactician, who can vet (argue with) the first one's plans. Ideally, this second meticulous planner will act as if he/she is in the role of the first meticulous planner. Bonus points if neither planner is a good communicator.

Then you need the comic relief, who elevates the whole process with witty observations, sublime puns, and general silliness, without making much substantial contribution.

And finally, you need the impatient guy who gets fed up after five seconds of planning and just attacks.