Stat Out Jaffar from Alladin

[Molan]

I mostly play on Roll20, and as anyone who's read any of my other like 1.5 posts will know I'm pretty much always the GM (though I am dying to be a PC so if anyone needs someone to play their 3.5 game PLEASE pm me lol).

That being said, I'm marbles-deep in a Sandstorm campaign and have had some amusing cameos from some Disney villains periodically in my campaigns that have just seemed to fit.

I'm working on Statting Jafar, wanted to know what you guys thought -- I also put a few other villains down I thought it would be fun to stat out as well. As per most of Disney's BS, the villains are typically casters.

** Jaffar:
- High Level Sorcerer (Sorcs in my setting are rogue, untrained wizards, who typically wind up going insane, he hides this well via sick Charisma).
- Uses heavy fire based spells from Evoc (Fireball, Scorching Ray, wall of fire, ect.), Enchantment, and Transmutation, particularly Polymorph spells, also gave him some Sandstorm Magic spells like Ashen Union and Desert Binding. Also gave him some conjuration and spells like Force Cage.
- Parrot Familiar
- Staff of the Serpent -- Comes with Scorching Ray, Fireball, Wall of Fire, Disintigrate, Polymorph, baleful polymorph, dire charm, suggestion, hypnotism, sleep and Sepia Snake Sigil...seems made for this purpose lol.
- Robe of the Evil Archmage
- "Turban" of Disguise
- Cloak of Charisma
- Ring of Prot +whatever

Other characters I wanted to Stat:
- Maleficent
- Evil Queen (snow white)
- Prince Hans (Frozen)
- Ursula

I know, it's all pretty stupid and corny but............thoughts?

[GreatDane]

I don't remember Jafar doing anything that's not pretty typical of any high-level spellcaster. His notable abilities were shapechanging (polymorph, etc.), charming (charm and dominate spells), and disguising himself (disguise self, alter self, polymorph). So I think a Jafar BBEG would be more about roleplaying the BBEG as Jafar than having a certain build - most of the footwork happens in spell selection.

That said, I always thought of Jafar as more of a wizard than a sorcerer - he was a lot more thoughtful and cunning than anyone else in the movie, and was shown doing arcane research/rituals, which always struck me as more of a wizard thing than a sorcerer thing. If he always seemed to have the right spell on hand, that's just a testament to his forethought (and staff).

[Sagetim]

I would want to say 'level 1 warlock with beguiling influence and items far beyond wealth by level' but...eh. To actually stat him up would require research...In other words watching the first movie again. As I recall, he didn't start hitting things with magical attacks until after he wished to be the most powerful sorcerer on earth. Which was a really dumb wish to be honest, because if the most powerful sorcerer was level 5...well, that would get you to 6? Maybe. Anyway, if we're statting up pre-wish jafar, then I think a lot of the things he did would fall under magic items he has because he's the grand vizier, and his only offensive attack was like...laser eyes from his snake staff. Which I would stat up as an eldritch blast boosting staff or something...maybe-

Staff of Serpentine Power- when used as part of an Eldritch Blast, this staff adds +3d6 to the damage dealt and shapes it into a pair of beams coming from the snake's eyes on the staff. The range of the blast is increased to 250ft. You cannot use a shape invocation when using the staff. Cost: Unique (it's a one of a kind staff, but if you wanted to craft one of your own, it would have a base price of 40,000 gold and require you to have the Eldritch Spear shape invocation and enough warlock levels to get Imbue Item).

[AvatarVecna]

Statting out Jafar is a pain in the butt, and even the third-act "ultimate sorcerer*" version isn't particularly impressive by D&D standards. For starters, he's clearly a spontaneous caster, because he has a limited number of tricks that he can use whenever he feels like it. Equally clear is that he's Intelligence-based, because his personal Charisma is ****, or at least not great: he's very convincing and persuasive if he gets a chance to talk to you and use his skills, but if you're just looking at him, he practically screams "evil"; this becomes even more obvious near the end of the movie where, upon gaining "ultimate power", he turns into a giggling, singing, moustache beard-twirling super-villain, with no personally intimidating presence. Finally, the magic at the end of the movie isn't exactly...impressive, and that's when he's at his best, and the early stuff is even worse; at the end of the movie, he's barely beating by a low-level rogue/ranger with no flanking partner as a Colossal Viper. All of this together gives me the impression that he's a high-Int, low-Cha Sage Bard.

I'm gonna go watch the movie again to see what he actually accomplishes, to figure out what level is appropriate for the two versions of Jafar that appear in the movie.

*: Jafar, the original LordDrako

[Molan]

I agree with you both. But my feeling here is that there's sort of a "dumbed down" effect applied to all these Disney Villains -- what they APPEAR they can do versus what they can actually do. IRL Jaffar by this logic should simply immolate Aladin at any given opportunity -- but it's Disney. Being able to summon a legendary tomb of wonders, turn into a colossal Cobra, dire charm / suggest the king of the entire desert make me feel like he's supposed to be powerful, just Disney-fied. The campaign setting I'm presenting him in gives villains significantly more teeth.

I do agree he should be a spontaneous caster though. For the reasons listed above. Cha dependencies versus Int dependency is an issue though.

[AvatarVecna]

The tomb-summoning was the beetle magic item, it wasn't anything about Jafar. the "turning into a giant snake" thing was after he got his upgrade to "ultimate sorcerer", so it's useless for determining the basic Jafar chassis. As for dire-charming the king...I'd like to point out that the sultan in the movie is the spitting image of a low-Wis aristocrat, and he still managed to throw off Jafar's charm once ("but you're so old..."); well, everybody rolls a 20 sometimes. In any case, there's got to be a good reason he didn't just try to hypnotize Jasmine into marrying him; at the very least, it might have something to do with her being a particularly strong-willed person, as Disney Princesses of the time tended to be.

Again, I'm combing through the movie for every bit of magic Jafar actually used to see what he should be.

[Ellowryn]

Been a while since i have seen the movie too, but i have always felt that a Sorcerer into Sandshaper fit jafar well. If i remember correctly he does a few things with sand throughout the movie, not gamebreaking stuff just minor things, which fits the classes Shape Sand ability. As for stats, yeah definitely high Int, but low Wis (So many failed sense motive checks vs the rogue) and moderate Cha (probably just enough to be able to cast his spells).

[Molan]

So then the argument becomes, "how high a level are we talking?" Since if he can move all the way to casting 9th level Sorcerer spells means he's need a minimum 14 starting Cha and then need to dump every Ability increase thereafter into it.

[AvatarVecna]

Here's what I've found that's actually something related to Jafar's magical abilities.

1. Iago (obviously a parrot familiar) can talk, although this also speaks to Jafar's incapability, since he's never tried to change Iago's voice to something more pleasant.

2. Jafar is combining standard Diplomancy with the "Hypnotism" spell, which makes the target act two steps friendlier towards you in regards to one task; if fanatical is an assumed step, this makes for a very powerful spell to use on a weak-willed person who trusts you (such as the sultan is to Jafar). That said, hypnosis doesn't even require a material component, much less a focus, so it's possible the staff has either nothing to do with the spell (and it's just a prop), or it has everything to do with the spell (and is a low-level magic item). We see later in the movie that the Hypnotism ends when the staff is broken, which lends evidence to the magic item theory.

3. Scrying on Aladdin using the sultan's ring as an apparent focus. That said, it's debatable what aspect of Jafar's magic was actually involved here; by all appearances, the spell was fueled by the combining the sultan's ring with the machine Iago was powering, making it seem like a magic item as well.

4. This isn't magic, I'm just pointing out that Jafar's disguise as an old man was a mundane disguise more than a magical one; we later see him rip off the beard to reveal his normal self underneath.

5. Jafar takes out a small vial that creates a lot of smoke. Not magic, moving on.

That's everything that Jafar does prior to becoming an "ultimate sorcerer". Looking back on it...there's nothing he does that isn't either skills or magic items at work. He never actually personally makes a spell work until he wishes himself to sorcerer-hood. And the magic item acquisition could be explained by him being the royal vizier, and having access to the royal money under certain cases. So what we're looking at is a low-level character with maxed out Diplomacy, Bluff, Disguise, Intimidate, and Use Magic Device who doesn't have a super-high Cha. Looking back on it...Jafar is actually fairly well optimized for a non-caster, prior to his upgrade. That said, Bard doesn't seem as appropriate as Aristocrat...or perhaps Expert, since he can't be a bard without personal casting, and rogue just doesn't fit.

Moving onto "ultimate sorcerer" stuff, to figure out what's appropriate there.

1. Forces Jasmine and the sorcerer to bow, and then holds Jasmine and Aladdin still as he moves them around. My guesses here are Dominate Person, Hold Person, and Telekinesis.

2. Turns Ali into Aladdin and elephant!Aboo back to his normal self. Dispel Magic works for both cases (in the first, undoing Fabricate, and in the second, undoing Polymorph, since Alter Self can only change your size by up to one category).

3. Turned a tiger into a kitten; probably Baleful Polymorph.

4. Sends an entire tower (with Aladdin in it) hurtling through the air towards somewhere where it's mountainous and snowing; the nearest place I can think of is somewhere high in the Himalayan Mountains, and since that's close enough that Aladdin could fly back on the carpet before too much else has happened, it's probably the most appropriate. That said, short of the transportation function of "Wish", I have no idea how one would move an entire building that far in D&D. It could be refluffed Teleportation, but the issue of "the entire building going along" is still present. The only thing I can think of is that he used Animate Objects on the building, cast Overland Flight on it, and then ordered it to fly somewhere cold.

A. Nothing related to Jafar, I just wanted to call attention to Aladdin using Evasion to dodge a building.

5. He created a lovely tiara from nothing when trying to convince Jasmine to marry him. This is probably Minor Creation, although the casting time was shortened from one minute to one round (I think there's a metamagic feat for that).

6. Blasts Aladdin back when he's trying to steal the lamp. Some sort of single target spell that forces movement.

7. Traps Jasmine in a giant hourglass. I have no idea how to represent this in D&D turns, except maybe some sort of Create Trap spell. That said, I'd probably peg it as being somewhere around 5th level or so, since Aladdin broke it fairly easily from the outside later on with a weapon, and it was taking its sweet time killing Jasmine.

8. He turns Aboo into a wind-up toy monkey. Possibly Baleful Polymorph into a tiny construct, but I'm sure that's not an actual possibility; more likely, there's a more focused spell for accomplishing this.

9. Targets the carpet (an intelligent magic item, from the looks of it) with a spell that unravels it; this is either a targeted Dispel Magic (more likely Greater Dispel Magic), or a refluffed Disintegrate spell.

10. Summons down a wall of swords; the swords are not moving, and aladdin can reach through them, so this isn't a Blade Barrier, despite being a blade barrier (*rimshot*). this is probably a more focused sword summoning spell, since Aladdin later picks up and wields one of the swords, so it can't really be a refluffed Wall of Iron.

11. Breathes out fire that forms a circle; very show-offey Wall of Fire spell.

12. Walks through the Wall of Fire without being harmed; probably Resistance to Fire, or even a spell-gained immunity.

13. While the SRD only takes vipers up to Huge, extrapolating them out to Colossal isn't difficult; I estimate it to be somewhere around 11-13 HD. Interestingly, this is actually worse than the Huge version, because the slightly higher BAB and Str are offset by the huge size penalty to hit, meaning the lower-level rogue dodges several bite attacks that by all rights he shouldn't have.

I estimate Jafar to be around 12th-13th level after his transformation into "the most powerful sorcerer in the world".

Here's what I would do if I was trying to make a Jafar-inspired BBEG: make him a high-Int middle-Cha Sage Bard 6/Mindbender 1/Magical Trickster 3/Sublime Chord 2/Ultimate Magus 8; focus his skills on social manipulation and Abuse Magic Device.

[tadkins]

AvatarVecna: Well done on that research. That was very fun to read. xD

[AvatarVecna]

Thank you. I take my Disney very seriously, and my D&D even more so. Combining them is always fun. :smallamused:

[tadkins]

Thank you. I take my Disney very seriously, and my D&D even more so. Combining them is always fun. :smallamused:

Definitely a lot of material you can use.

At some point, when I muster the will to DM a campaign one day, I want to do something Ice/North based. Along with Frostburn material, you can be sure I'll take some inspiration from Frozen. xD

[Red Fel]

Here's what I would do if I was trying to make a Jafar-inspired BBEG: make him a high-Int middle-Cha Sage Bard 6/Mindbender 1/Magical Trickster 3/Sublime Chord 2/Ultimate Magus 8; focus his skills on social manipulation and Abuse Magic Device.

Well done, well done indeed.

I almost want to see you stat other Disney villains now.

Strike that. I actually want to see you do it.

[AvatarVecna]

Definitely a lot of material you can use.

At some point, when I muster the will to DM a campaign one day, I want to do something Ice/North based. Along with Frostburn material, you can be sure I'll take some inspiration from Frozen. xD

There was a thread on that a while back, trying to figure out what Elsa would be in D&D terms. I think the conclusion we came to (or at least the closest to a consensus we came to) was that she was a low-Con Sorcerer refluffing all her spells known to be ice/snow powers, even Fabricate. This gives her enough personal power to summon up a Fimbulwinter (lvl 8 spell), while still having few enough HP that a coup de grace from a longsword is deadly.

Also, it's fun reading through Frostburn and seeing all the things that were in Frozen, or at least had something similar. There's actually an ice castle building spell in Frostburn, how cool is that?

[AvatarVecna]

Well done, well done indeed.

I almost want to see you stat other Disney villains now.

Strike that. I actually want to see you do it.

You know, I might just do that. I've got some other things I need to do today (including my actual IRL job and signing up for college classes), but I think I'll have time to get a thread started on that. Maybe something similar to the "Video Game Characters in D&D" threads...

[tadkins]

There was a thread on that a while back, trying to figure out what Elsa would be in D&D terms. I think the conclusion we came to (or at least the closest to a consensus we came to) was that she was a low-Con Sorcerer refluffing all her spells known to be ice/snow powers, even Fabricate. This gives her enough personal power to summon up a Fimbulwinter (lvl 8 spell), while still having few enough HP that a coup de grace from a longsword is deadly.

Also, it's fun reading through Frostburn and seeing all the things that were in Frozen, or at least had something similar. There's actually an ice castle building spell in Frostburn, how cool is that?

That's some dedication to detail right there. I probably would have just made her a Sorcerer with Energy Substitution and called it a day.

[AvatarVecna]

That's some dedication to detail right there. I probably would have just made her a Sorcerer with Energy Substitution and called it a day.

Disney D&D is SRS BSNS, and we playground munchkins are nothing if not obsessively meticulous. :smallamused: It was a fun thread that tried to vaguely stat up a bunch of different Disney powerhouses to determine who was the most powerful; IIRC, the winner was Merlin from that animated King Arthur movie, for his wonderful demonstration of Shapechange vs Shapechange combat, the advantage of a wizard who fights with his wits rather than just his spell slots, being the OG powerful wizard, and travelling through time near the end of the movie just to take a vacation. Also in the running were Jafar in chained Djinni form and Maleficent, as well as a couple others I can't recall at the moment.

[LooseCannoneer]

He's definitely not any caster class that depends on WIS.

He threw a tower a great distance, though. I have no idea how that's even possible, since a tower weighs more than Telekinesis' maximum.

[AvatarVecna]

He's definitely not any caster class that depends on WIS.

He threw a tower a great distance, though. I have no idea how that's even possible, since a tower weighs more than Telekinesis' maximum.

Oh yeah, Wis is definitely a dump stat here. And my only theory on getting that tower to do that was a spell combo that I'm not even sure would work (Animate Object+Overland Flight, tell it to fly somewhere really cold). The only other possibility I can think of is the transportation function of Wish.

[danzibr]

Comically, my kids are watching Aladdin 3 right now.

Anyway. I don't have much to add, but we can also consider genie Jafar. He doesn't do much in the original, but we see him do all sorts of tricks in Aladdin 2.

My son said he wanted to watch it later today. Maybe I'll post all his demonstrations of power.

He would make for a cool recurring villain.

[AvatarVecna]

Comically, my kids are watching Aladdin 3 right now.

Anyway. I don't have much to add, but we can also consider genie Jafar. He doesn't do much in the original, but we see him do all sorts of tricks in Aladdin 2.

My son said he wanted to watch it later today. Maybe I'll post all his demonstrations of power.

He would make for a cool recurring villain.

Genie!Jafar is incredibly boring, as are most T -1 builds: he's a genie with at-will SLA Wish. There's almost literally nothing he can't do, and that he ever lost is only because he was a monologue-spewing, gloat-prone moron who couldn't use his abilities efficiently if he tried. It actually serves as a great D&D point: no matter how powerful your build is, no matter how "unbeatable" your defenses are, no matter how few defenses your offense has, it doesn't matter if that unbeatable build is being played by a moron.

[Valwyn]

So something like LE Human Feat Rogue 1/Sorcerer 6+8 with high Int, average Cha, low Wis, and Able Learner?



Edit: maybe we should start a new thread for this, but since OP asked, here are some ideas for Maleficent (I assumed the original one):

Race: green hag, refluffed to look different. Hey, she is a fairy.
Class: Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 2, enough to get Shapechange and metamagic those Wall of Thorns
Items: staff of Chain Lightning, Greater Scrying, and Silent Image
Feats: Domain Access (Plant Domain), mostly so she can build those Walls of Thorns around the castle. Obtain Familiar to get a high level Raven familiar despite being multiclassed might be nice. And Leadership to get a bunch of goblins/small humanoids to boss around.
Spells: mostly enchantments. In particular we need something to make Aurora do something she wouldn't normally do (follow strange voices around and prick her finger on a needle) and some spell to curse her. Suggestion/Charm Monster/Insidious Suggestion/Voice of the Dragon and Greater Bestow Curse could work. She also has Greater Teleport, though that could be her staff, and Shapechange, of course. She also can send frosts to kill flowers (Kelgore's Grave Mist?), but it's not really important for her character.

[danzibr]

Genie!Jafar is incredibly boring, as are most T -1 builds: he's a genie with at-will SLA Wish. There's almost literally nothing he can't do, and that he ever lost is only because he was a monologue-spewing, gloat-prone moron who couldn't use his abilities efficiently if he tried. It actually serves as a great D&D point: no matter how powerful your build is, no matter how "unbeatable" your defenses are, no matter how few defenses your offense has, it doesn't matter if that unbeatable build is being played by a moron.
I don't think genies are that strong in the Aladdin universe.

So in the movie Jafar shoots non lethal lightning, changes form from big genie to his old self, uses a ring of fire to light candles, goes invisible, puts his eyes really big on a wall, makes a swarm of bees, ages Genie, traps Genie, changes scenery, squeezes Genie really hard, teleports the bad dude underwater with himself and can speak and breath just fine, splits the ground to reveal/make lava, takes direct blasts of lightning from Genie and is unharmed, performs telekinesis, makes his hand really really huge, gets stabbed and it doesn't matter, had a good singing voice, seals Genie, disguises himself as an old lady and Jasmine, takes form from a swarm of spiders, flies, conjures black flying horses and matching swordsmen who themselves use telekinesis (or it might be Jafar, not clear), creates big spinning plates, freezes Carpet, raises a pillar of earth, zaps chains which tie up Carpet into being, and uhh that's pretty much it. Oh, and does good acting as Jasmine.

[PsyBomb]

I don't think genies are that strong in the Aladdin universe.

Their only stated limits are an inability to wish for more wishes, make someone fall in love, or kill anyone. The second movie makes clear that being unable to kill someone is NOT the same as being unable to beat them to the edge of death (as the Jafar v Genie fight and "Only Second Rate" show).

[AvatarVecna]

I don't think genies are that strong in the Aladdin universe.

I've seen Aladdin 2: Return of Jafar. He literally has a song and dance number where's he lyrically and literally pimp-slapping Homer Simpson!Genie upside the head with how much more powerful a genie he is than the genie. That Genie vs Genie combat has so much going on, that there's no way Jafar isn't at least T1, and he's likely higher. I reiterate: his build is powerful, but he's being played moronically, and not making efficient use of his ultimate cosmic power (partially because, for most of the movie, he can't). At the end, though, he has no such excuse; the only thing he's got left to blame his defeat on is his own incompetent use of his powers. I mean, come on, he was defeated by a frickin' nearly-dead parrot. That's pathetic, and there's no way he's not powerful enough to have stopped it if he'd been paying attention.

[danzibr]

I've seen Aladdin 2: Return of Jafar. He literally has a song and dance number where's he lyrically and literally pimp-slapping Homer Simpson!Genie upside the head with how much more powerful a genie he is than the genie. That Genie vs Genie combat has so much going on, that there's no way Jafar isn't at least T1, and he's likely higher. I reiterate: his build is powerful, but he's being played moronically, and not making efficient use of his ultimate cosmic power (partially because, for most of the movie, he can't). At the end, though, he has no such excuse; the only thing he's got left to blame his defeat on is his own incompetent use of his powers. I mean, come on, he was defeated by a frickin' nearly-dead parrot. That's pathetic, and there's no way he's not powerful enough to have stopped it if he'd been paying attention.
It was the at-will SLA Wish that I was complaining about. Never in the movies or show do we see genies pulling the kind of stuff a 3.5 wish can do.

[PsyBomb]

It was the at-will SLA Wish that I was complaining about. Never in the movies or show do we see genies pulling the kind of stuff a 3.5 wish can do.

Even if it wasn't Wish, it is (at the VERY least) an extended string of multiple high-level Illusions and Transmutations, which are also all of a level to hit Outsiders (Genie isn't Human) and also with powerful-enough save DCs that Genie makes none of them. That suggests Wizard 15 at the very least, and on a tough chassis.

[Blackhawk748]

- Maleficent

Are we talking the Live Action here? because im feeling Spont Druid who gave up Wild Shape.

Back to Jaffar. Great job AV.

[Strigon]

I don't think genies are that strong in the Aladdin universe.

So in the movie Jafar shoots non lethal lightning, changes form from big genie to his old self, uses a ring of fire to light candles, goes invisible, puts his eyes really big on a wall, makes a swarm of bees, ages Genie, traps Genie, changes scenery, squeezes Genie really hard, teleports the bad dude underwater with himself and can speak and breath just fine, splits the ground to reveal/make lava, takes direct blasts of lightning from Genie and is unharmed, performs telekinesis, makes his hand really really huge, gets stabbed and it doesn't matter, had a good singing voice, seals Genie, disguises himself as an old lady and Jasmine, takes form from a swarm of spiders, flies, conjures black flying horses and matching swordsmen who themselves use telekinesis (or it might be Jafar, not clear), creates big spinning plates, freezes Carpet, raises a pillar of earth, zaps chains which tie up Carpet into being, and uhh that's pretty much it. Oh, and does good acting as Jasmine.

Yet the first movie clearly states that there are only 3 limitations on what a genie can't do: make someone fall in love, bring back the dead, and no wishing for more wishes.
Ironically, not all that hard in D&D.

Edit: Nope, sorry; he also can't kill anyone.
Which might just be more like a Paladin's inability to perform Evil acts than a lack of power to do it; remember, it's "against the rules, so don't ask", as opposed to being impossible.

[Red Fel]

Are we talking the Live Action here?

Never happened, doesn't exist, no such thing.
Seriously, are they trying to ruin my childhood? What's next, Ursula was simply a misunderstood alchemist and fledgling attorney?
Never happened.

[Blackhawk748]

Never happened, doesn't exist, no such thing.
Seriously, are they trying to ruin my childhood? What's next, Ursula was simply a misunderstood alchemist and fledgling attorney?
Never happened.

Well I liked it. Mostly because of the superb acting, great visual effects, and writing. I also didnt really view it as Sleeping Beauty, i just watched it as a story in its own right.

[AvatarVecna]

Well I liked it. Mostly because of the superb acting, great visual effects, and writing. I also didnt really view it as Sleeping Beauty, i just watched it as a story in its own right.

See, I could do that if it wasn't literally supposed to be a "reimagining" of Sleeping Beauty. If it was some other generically named fairy tale, I could see this as almost a classic Disney spin on the older fairy tales, where it turned out that the evil fairy was really just misunderstood and cared for the child in her own way. It's definitely an interesting story, the problem is that it's trying to shoehorn that interesting story into a pre-existing story that doesn't really support it.

It's like Tim Burton's Alice in Wonderland: yes, the story that got put on the screen looks kinda weird and interesting, and yes, the character's are delightfully quirky, and yes this world they're in seems a bit off, and yes all that would work if it was it's own story...but it's trying to be Alice in Wonderland. "Quirky" and "kinda weird" should not be the words that come to mind when describing Wonderland. Wonderland is supposed to be a descent into the deepest madness a little girl's subconscious could ever possibly dream up. Alice in Wonderland is supposed to be about Alice's journey through this topsy-turvy world that makes absolutely no sense, where order and reason and logic have no place. And yet, instead of making the movie a journey, the movie was given a plot based on politics and a prophecy and all this stuff that logically follows, and that's not Wonderland.

Maleficent wasn't a fresh take on a story never told before on the big screen, it was a "reimagining" that was trying to cash in on the Wicked idea of having the villain secretly be the hero from the background the whole time. Wicked pulled it off well; Maleficent did not. At all. If it had been the original on-screen Sleeping Beauty movie, it would've been good, but the timing and the plot don't scream "we had a brilliant idea we had to share with the world", it screams "we're cashing in on a popular thing".

[Blackhawk748]

Valid points, maybe i liked it more because i only saw Sleeping Beauty once, and i was like 8 at the time. Probably the same reason why i like Burtons Alice in Wonderland :smalltongue:

[Red Fel]

I just didn't like the fact that it took a powerful, intimidating, awesome character and then destroyed everything that made her so.

Animated!Maleficent was severe, cruel, and remorseless. Live!Maleficent was brash, regretful, and indecisive.

A!Mal was proactive and calculating. L!Mal was reactive and overly emotional.

A!Mal was a sadistic victimizer. L!Mal was a traumatized victim.

A!Mal was a powerful foe, confronted by mighty heroes. L!Mal was a powerful foe, confronted by cowards and incompetents.

A!Mal turned into a dragon. L!Mal turned somebody else into a dragon. She didn't even get to do that herself.
On its own, sure, it's a beautiful fairy story, lovely visuals, good acting. But even in a vacuum, the story is in no way empowering; of the two central female figures, one is an emotional victim rather than a strong figure, and the other is an idiot who is only alive because a nigh-immortal and apparently-not-that-vindictive fairy isn't quite stalking her.

Animated Maleficent is one of the all-time most sinister, most awe-inspiring villains Disney has produced. Live-action Maleficent is someone trying to turn her life around after suffering a horrific trauma and betrayal. It's a nice story, but that's no villain.

At least, that's what I'd be saying if live-action Maleficent ever existed. Which it didn't.

[Molan]

Lol, this took off while I was at work. Ok, few things:

1. I really do like that stat build for Jafar AvatarofVecna. Plz do Malificent now lol

2. I actually did an Elsa build. Interestingly enough it was for a Frostburn mini campaign my friends and I did over the holidays a year ago.

We made some small modifications. One, we ruled that she was a "frozen sorceress" so while she followed most of the Sorcerer class to the letter, she was only able to learn winter/cold/force/item repair spells. Int became her spell-powering stat, not Cha -- this was done because her Cha was ****ty but she was a powerful sorceress who was born with her powers and we couldn't figure out any way to make it work.

The brilliance here is that between PHB, Frostburn, CAr, CMg, and SCdm there were enough appropriate spells where we had more options the she could learn.

She was able to power a Fimbulwinter, and took feats necessary to craft her own construct, Marshmellow. Which led us to stating out a snow golem. We also had a character playing as Olaf, which was basically a modified living construct. So we gave her the repair object spells so she could "heal" him.

The PC took her into Elemental Savant at 10 and took a bunch of cold appropriate feats.

Olaf wound up being a rogue because he picked a lock and we found a fan art picture of him online holding Prince Hans' severed head lol.

Ana was a Bard w/**** Int, Kristof was a Mountain Ranger with appropriate feats and a Raindeer companion and Hans was a Paladin of Law (LE of course).

We also wound up fighting the Demi gods Krampas and "Lord Wyntyr" (thank you Penny Arcade).

[LooseCannoneer]

Lol, this took off while I was at work. Ok, few things:

1. I really do like that stat build for Jafar AvatarofVecna. Plz do Malificent now lol

2. I actually did an Elsa build. Interestingly enough it was for a Frostburn mini campaign my friends and I did over the holidays a year ago.

We made some small modifications. One, we ruled that she was a "frozen sorceress" so while she followed most of the Sorcerer class to the letter, she was only able to learn winter/cold/force/item repair spells. Int became her spell-powering stat, not Cha -- this was done because her Cha was ****ty but she was a powerful sorceress who was born with her powers and we couldn't figure out any way to make it work.

The brilliance here is that between PHB, Frostburn, CAr, CMg, and SCdm there were enough appropriate spells where we had more options the she could learn.

She was able to power a Fimbulwinter, and took feats necessary to craft her own construct, Marshmellow. Which led us to stating out a snow golem. We also had a character playing as Olaf, which was basically a modified living construct. So we gave her the repair object spells so she could "heal" him.

The PC took her into Elemental Savant at 10 and took a bunch of cold appropriate feats.

Olaf wound up being a rogue because he picked a lock and we found a fan art picture of him online holding Prince Hans' severed head lol.

Ana was a Bard w/**** Int, Kristof was a Mountain Ranger with appropriate feats and a Raindeer companion and Hans was a Paladin of Law (LE of course).

We also wound up fighting the Demi gods Krampas and "Lord Wyntyr" (thank you Penny Arcade).

I would stat Elsa as a Wilder multiclassing into the Pyomancer PrC (substitute cold damage for fire). It makes a bit more sense that way.

[DrMotives]

I would stat Elsa as a Wilder multiclassing into the Pyomancer PrC (substitute cold damage for fire). It makes a bit more sense that way.

Frostburn has a Cryokineticist PrC that's intended to be a cold analog of the Pyrokineticist class, assuming that's what you meant.

[LooseCannoneer]

Frostburn has a Cryokineticist PrC that's intended to be a cold analog of the Pyrokineticist class, assuming that's what you meant.

I've mostly just changed the damage type and name of stuff in Pyrokineticist for every damage type just for variety. Its all sort of the same meh class, and there isn't much of an effect on gameplay. Bit of a flavoring houserule.

[DMVerdandi]

Why not Sha'ir for Jafar???
Shai'r 10/Incantatrix 10
Give him the summon elemental reserve feat, and focus feats on either conjuration or enchantment depending on how you want to spin things.


For Grimhilde (Queen from snow-white), I would definitely go with artificer 20. Much of her magic was alchemy based, so it's much more fitting to use that class.

[Molan]

I've mostly just changed the damage type and name of stuff in Pyrokineticist for every damage type just for variety. Its all sort of the same meh class, and there isn't much of an effect on gameplay. Bit of a flavoring houserule.

That's why I went cold based sorcerer. The charisma was problematic but she appeared more magical then Psionic and Cryo/Pyrokineticists are garbage.

Sorcerers are born with their power, for a variety of reasons. Elsa's development seemed to follow the Sorcery type arc.

[LooseCannoneer]

That's why I went cold based sorcerer. The charisma was problematic but she appeared more magical then Psionic and Cryo/Pyrokineticists are garbage.

Sorcerers are born with their power, for a variety of reasons. Elsa's development seemed to follow the Sorcery type arc.

Wilders are psionic sorcerers. Plus, repairing constructs is as easy as Expanded Knowledge: Psionic Repair Damage

[Molan]

Wilders are psionic sorcerers. Plus, repairing constructs is as easy as Expanded Knowledge: Psionic Repair Damage

Hey, I'm not saying it's a BAD idea -- I like psionics. The build just seemed to fit an arcane type rather then a Psionic one.

The big issue is that I really dislike the Cryo and Pyro Kineticists. They COULD be cool...but the loss of MLs versus picking up some random PLAs that scale badly just seems really bad to me.

[DrMotives]

Hey, I'm not saying it's a BAD idea -- I like psionics. The build just seemed to fit an arcane type rather then a Psionic one.

The big issue is that I really dislike the Cryo and Pyro Kineticists. They COULD be cool...but the loss of MLs versus picking up some random PLAs that scale badly just seems really bad to me.

I'm not real familiar with the psionic system, but what I remember someone saying about those 2 classes is that they aren't for a manifester to specialize in an element, they're for a mundane or a gish to pick up some elemental psychic flavour. Cryokineticist requires no psionic power, just 8 ranks concentrate (monk or able learner level 5), 2 ranks knowledge psionics, 1 rank craft alchemy, and a Lawful alignment. That's it. So a 5th level monk or any mundane class with able learner who maxes out concentrate and picks up 2 cross-class skill ranks is in. Still not an amazing class, but compared to 10 more levels of monk or fighter, and it starts looking better.

[LooseCannoneer]

Being a good class isn't the point. It fits the flavor and abilities pretty perfectly. The only thing it can't do is summon a gigantic blizzard that covers everything in several feet of snow, and I don't have any idea how to do that with an arcane caster anyway.

[AvatarVecna]

We made some small modifications. One, we ruled that she was a "frozen sorceress" so while she followed most of the Sorcerer class to the letter, she was only able to learn winter/cold/force/item repair spells. Int became her spell-powering stat, not Cha -- this was done because her Cha was ****ty but she was a powerful sorceress who was born with her powers and we couldn't figure out any way to make it work.

Wilder works just as well as Sorcerer, although I disagree with you on her having low Charisma: her presence could be felt whenever she was nearby, and her beauty can't be denied; the biggest problem with her being high-Charisma is that she didn't have much self-confidence, especially when it came to her powers, but she slowly learned that over the course of the movie. Mostly a matter of opinion, though.


Ana was a Bard w/**** Int, Kristof was a Mountain Ranger with appropriate feats and a Raindeer companion and Hans was a Paladin of Law (LE of course).

Low Int? I believe you mean Wisdom. The girl never paid attention to her surroundings (watch her stumble her way through the crowd, or be so wrapped up in her song number that she doesn't notice the horse running into her), she's a terrible judge of character (she didn't trust Kristoff much at the start, she blindly trusted Hans from the moment they met to the point of wishing to marry him the next day, and she was convinced that Elsa would never harm her even unintentionally), and she couldn't get a clue if it smacked her upside the head (at the end of the song where she tells Elsa about the endless winter she started, you can tell Elsa can't handle it, and Anna's not backing off).

Anna showed she could come up with smart plans on the fly on multiple occasions, but she had no real sense of consequences or her surroundings.


Why not Sha'ir for Jafar???

Mostly because I'm really unfamiliar with that class, and Sage Bard/Sublime Chord seemed to make sense to me.


Being a good class isn't the point. It fits the flavor and abilities pretty perfectly. The only thing it can't do is summon a gigantic blizzard that covers everything in several feet of snow, and I don't have any idea how to do that with an arcane caster anyway.

Fimbulwinter can do that. It's literally what it's designed for.

[Grim Reader]

I'd suggest Aristocrat before the "Ultimate Sorcerer" wish, and that the Wish allowed an instant rebuild to a spellcasting class.

[ComaVision]

I'd love to see AV do The Horned King from Black Cauldron. I can't really remember him doing anything other than scrying but damn he's cool.

EDIT: He teleported as well.

[noob]

I remember another Aladdin movie where Jaffar looked like a full artificer(he mostly created magic items and did not casted any spell also there was not all those genies granting tons of wishes and so Jaffar did not had a sorcerer mode.)

[Vhaidara]

I'd love to see AV do The Horned King from Black Cauldron. I can't really remember him doing anything other than scrying but damn he's cool.

Blegh. Don't remind me of that movie. It may have been okay on its own, but I read the books first.

(for those lacking context, The Black Cauldron was the second book in a series. The movie combined the first two. Badly)

[AvatarVecna]

I'd love to see AV do The Horned King from Black Cauldron. I can't really remember him doing anything other than scrying but damn he's cool.

EDIT: He teleported as well.

Ugh...that ****ing movie. Jafar could be quickly statted up because he's got a weird niche: an obviously Int-based spontaneous caster who mostly depends on skill and magic items, rather than his own magic. Elsa is another easily statted character because she's an archetypal sorceress. Merlin's another easy one, because he's not only the original Archmage, but the character in the movie has so many obvious wizard tricks.

My problem with statting up the horned king is basically the same problem I have statting up the fairy from Beauty and the Beast, or whats-his-name, the villain from Mulan: namely, he doesn't really do much of anything the entire movie. Jafar was an extremely active villain in Aladdin, which is fairly rare in Disney movies, since they usually focus on the hero, only bringing in the villain when it's time for villainy. Jafar gave me a lot to work with; he has an obvious place in the world, making his general power level apparent (he's magic, but he hasn't charmed Jasmine into marrying him, and he isn't ruling the kingdom through force), and he had some clear limitations on what he could and couldn't do. When a character's involvement in a movie doesn't amount to more than "lightning flashes when their name is spoken" and "sneers evilly into the camera", that doesn't give me much of anything. The horned king does a few things, but it's not very well-defined; the most explicitly magical thing that was mechanically definable that took place was the creation of the undead hordes, and that was entirely the artifact-level magic item he was looking for, and artifacts can basically do whatever you want them to do.

[dascarletm]

Yet the first movie clearly states that there are only 3 limitations on what a genie can't do: make someone fall in love, bring back the dead, and no wishing for more wishes.
Ironically, not all that hard in D&D.

Edit: Nope, sorry; he also can't kill anyone.
Which might just be more like a Paladin's inability to perform Evil acts than a lack of power to do it; remember, it's "against the rules, so don't ask", as opposed to being impossible.

Minor Nitpick:

He doesn't say he can't bring back the dead, but instead he doesn't like to.

Also, as we see in the second movie, and by Aladdin tricking the genie, the no wishing for more wishes is a rule imposed by him. Jafar was perfectly content to giving the thief whatever he desired without using a wish.

[ComaVision]

Blegh. Don't remind me of that movie. It may have been okay on its own, but I read the books first.

(for those lacking context, The Black Cauldron was the second book in a series. The movie combined the first two. Badly)


Ugh...that ****ing movie.

The movie as a whole may be terrible but The Horned King is awesome. He's really in a league of his own for Disney movie villains.


Jafar could be quickly statted up because he's got a weird niche: an obviously Int-based spontaneous caster who mostly depends on skill and magic items, rather than his own magic. Elsa is another easily statted character because she's an archetypal sorceress. Merlin's another easy one, because he's not only the original Archmage, but the character in the movie has so many obvious wizard tricks.

My problem with statting up the horned king is basically the same problem I have statting up the fairy from Beauty and the Beast, or whats-his-name, the villain from Mulan: namely, he doesn't really do much of anything the entire movie. Jafar was an extremely active villain in Aladdin, which is fairly rare in Disney movies, since they usually focus on the hero, only bringing in the villain when it's time for villainy. Jafar gave me a lot to work with; he has an obvious place in the world, making his general power level apparent (he's magic, but he hasn't charmed Jasmine into marrying him, and he isn't ruling the kingdom through force), and he had some clear limitations on what he could and couldn't do. When a character's involvement in a movie doesn't amount to more than "lightning flashes when their name is spoken" and "sneers evilly into the camera", that doesn't give me much of anything. The horned king does a few things, but it's not very well-defined; the most explicitly magical thing that was mechanically definable that took place was the creation of the undead hordes, and that was entirely the artifact-level magic item he was looking for, and artifacts can basically do whatever you want them to do.

Yeah, I can see your point :smallfrown:

I guess there's only enough information for a build stub, like Sorc 10 for Teleport and Charisma focus (cuz he damn scary).

[Vhaidara]

The movie as a whole may be terrible but The Horned King is awesome. He's really in a league of his own for Disney movie villains.

I agree, he's awesome. So awesome that, unless I'm mistaken (it's been like 10 years since I read them), he's the primary villain of a 5 book series. In which he DOES do things.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, I can see your point :smallfrown:

I guess there's only enough information for a build stub, like Sorc 10 for Teleport and Charisma focus (cuz he damn scary).

Yeah, mid-level sorcerer sounds appropriate, although it's curious how he was defeated by a boy with no training of any kind, and couldn't kidnap a pig despite having Scrying and Teleport. Bah...anyway, he might also be a lich, although I think there's issues if you assume he's a lich in the movie.

But yeah...if it's any consolation, I wish there was enough info to work with to stat him up, since he's the only interesting part of the movie.

[hamishspence]

I agree, he's awesome. So awesome that, unless I'm mistaken (it's been like 10 years since I read them), he's the primary villain of a 5 book series. In which he DOES do things.

TV tropes description seems to suggest he's only the villain in book 1, and only for a few scenes, as the general of a longer-running villain.

[Vhaidara]

TV tropes description seems to suggest he's only the villain in book 1, and only for a few scenes, as the general of a longer-running villain.

Okay. I'd forgotten he was just a winion.

Read to read those books again.

[ComaVision]

I agree, he's awesome. So awesome that, unless I'm mistaken (it's been like 10 years since I read them), he's the primary villain of a 5 book series. In which he DOES do things.

I haven't read the books but I believe his master, Arawn, is the primary villain. The Horned King is his champion.


Yeah, mid-level sorcerer sounds appropriate, although it's curious how he was defeated by a boy with no training of any kind, and couldn't kidnap a pig despite having Scrying and Teleport. Bah...anyway, he might also be a lich, although I think there's issues if you assume he's a lich in the movie.

But yeah...if it's any consolation, I wish there was enough info to work with to stat him up, since he's the only interesting part of the movie.

Hubris is probably the best explanation. Off of memory, he used Taran to get the cauldron and then basically ignored them while he animated his Cauldron-born and saw them off. Gurgi messes up the cauldron and my main man, The Horned King, gets killed by it.

In D&D terms, I'd have to go with Necropolitan over Lich just because he doesn't appear to have the raw power necessary. He's also hurt by water that gets splashed on him by Hedwig, so I'll just pretend it was Holy Water and that supports that he is undead.