Challenges for a high level party

[Frostthehero]

Hi playground,
I'm having some serious trouble creating any challenges that aren't super easy for my 13-15th level party. They consist of an optimized wizard, a supertank dragon shaman, an optimized psion, and an optimized summoner druid. Anything I throw at them seems to get destroyed in seconds, whether it be an elemental monolith (2 rounds of combat) or a difficult negotiation (maxxed bluff skill+glibness), or even extremely difficult saves (+5 untyped bonus to all saves, +7 resistance bonus, cloak of resistance).

What could I do to take them down a notch, short of dumping cheese on top of their cheese?

[Brova]

First, I've got to ask what you mean by "optimized". Are we talking about a Wizard that casts generically good spells like finger of death and acid fog, or one that plays around with simulacrum chaining and other cheese?

Second, I think that you're underestimating how effective they are. Two rounds of combat for what amounts to a big pile of hit points is basically fine for optimized people in the 13 to 15 range.

Third, single enemies are really bad at prolonging combat at high levels. Try either groups of enemies, or some wildly overpowered single enemies (pseudonatural stuff for example). Use the latter with caution.

[Frostthehero]

First, I've got to ask what you mean by "optimized". Are we talking about a Wizard that casts generically good spells like finger of death and acid fog, or one that plays around with simulacrum chaining and other cheese?

Second, I think that you're underestimating how effective they are. Two rounds of combat for what amounts to a big pile of hit points is basically fine for optimized people in the 13 to 15 range.


Optimized means archmage, fatespinner and initiate levels. I am already limiting what power they can get, because they would be chaining simulacrum and messing with divine minion cheese, but I've limited their capability simply because I do not have the DMing experience to deal with what could come. Divine metamagic + sacred exorcist is one of the things I have to cry about.

The hit points weren't the issue. The wizard dumped shivering touch on the monolith, and the shaman used a vorpal sword.

I like the enemy group idea though. I'll have to try that.

[Brova]

Optimized means archmage, fatespinner and initiate levels. I am already limiting what power they can get, because they would be chaining simulacrum and messing with divine minion cheese, but I've limited their capability simply because I do not have the DMing experience to deal with what could come. Divine metamagic + sacred exorcist is one of the things I have to cry about.

That's pretty high. Not quite sure what you mean about Divine Metamagic. It only applies to divine spells, and I don't think Druid can get into Sacred Exorcist.


The hit points weren't the issue. The wizard dumped shivering touch on the monolith, and the shaman used a vorpal sword.

Not to be rude, but what did you expect a party of three casters to do to a walking pile of hitpoints? Ability damage is a strategy that exists in high level play, and it randomly punishes certain creatures very hard. Just like straight damage punishes some people, and grapples punish other people. Challenging caster with single monsters involves either broad spectrum immunities or casters.

Just taking apart the defenses of a high level caster can be a pretty solid adventure. Even if each individual part gets taken apart fairly quickly, having a big enough set of interesting obstacles can be good.


I like the enemy group idea though. I'll have to try that.

Groups are solid. Some high CR constructs and a pack of Mind Flayers is reasonably effective. Depending on exact stats you could try a swarm of CR 9 to 11 dragons. Maybe some low level builds optimized to target their weaknesses.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Thank you. And may God have mercy on your player's souls. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?408757-Could-use-some-advice-on-how-to-challenge-a-high-powered-stealth-group#15) :smalleek:"

This opponent lasted eight rounds against a 20th level optimized party. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?358732-I-need-a-lot-of-easily-playable-builds#4)

This is a dragon lair. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?322346-Volcanic-mountain-cavern-style-dungeon-as-red-dragon-lair#2)

This is a what-would-a-dragon-do post. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?209130-I-am-a-Dragon#6)

Here's another post about a dragon. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?86672-Running-a-high-level-Dragon-encounter-3-5&p=4645537&viewfull=1#post4645537)

This adventure could be adapted to the party's level. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?288440-3-5-Challenging-a-Party-of-Six#12)

This dungeon design, as well as that thread in general. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303529-Building-a-Tough-Dungeon-Crawl-3-5#11)

[Bonzai]

I understand where your coming from. The first high level campaign I DM'ed consisted of;

Beguiler/guild mage/Fate Spinner: crowd control, stealth, minionmancy, She brought a lot to the table. The most potent thing she did was remove chance from the equation. If I made a save, I would have to re-roll it. If they failed one, they got a second chance. This was huge in the game.

Wizard/ Psion/ Theurge: he focused on utility, and countering whatever I did. He had a huge tool kit. His most potent ability was to be able to interrupt my turn and take his turn as an immediate action. This saved the parties bacon many a time.

Ranger/ OotBI: This was the primary damage dealer of the party. Fully buffed he could could deal over 350 damage a round. He was a Gatling gun with arrows. Plus his arrows lowered spell resistance, so that targets that lived ended up easy prey for the casters.

Dread Necromancer: I made a mistake and allowed unseelie fey. So massive debuffs to saves for most things adjacent to her, combined with saves or die spells, and strong minionmancy. This angel of death walked around imploding things with impunity.

Warmage: weak link of the party, and the least threatening. However he was responsible for a lot of the buffs on the ranger so he contributed.

This party could walk through anything I threw at it. Within two turns they could neutralize any threat. I felt that I wasn't challenging them, and that it would take an alpha that outright killed half the party to even slow them down.

I expressed my concerns to my players, and they gave me great advice. And that was that it didn't mater. They were having fun. They had earned their power level by level and were enjoying the fruits of their efforts. As long as the story was engaging and the combats interesting, then it didn't matter.

So I would give you the same advice. If the players are having fun, then don't worry about how long the combats are lasting.

[torrasque666]

My DM is currently adapting the Apocalypse Stone to 3.5 to deal with us. Not an ideal solution right now, but in a few levels...

[Brova]

Here's an idea for a dungeon.

The Astral plane is where gods go to die. Or possibly where they end up when they're dead. It's not really clear. Regardless, a powerful Lich has set up residence in the corpse of a dead god of ... death. The corpse is huge, riddled with negative energy, infested with undead and demons, and quite possibly about to wake up as the world's scariest zombie.

For enemies, throw in lots of souped up skeletons and zombies for chaff, Nightshades as mini-bosses, evolved undead, swarms of incorporeal creatures, maybe a Hullathoin or two, some demons, and finally a Necromancer Lich. Possibly a Dread Necromancer with fear stacking, possibly a Cleric with DMM gish-ing, possibly a Wizard with save or dies.

The terrain can be pretty nasty too. Whole swaths of dead magic, the whole thing should be negative energy dominant, some squares should hit you with an enervation every round, and you can have the occasional place where the god's flesh is not quite dead and attacking people.

For a particularly nasty twist, consider that the Lich might have some insurance to deal with anyone who bests him. Maybe the corpse awakens as an Atropal once he's killed.

Of course, there are still the adventures to find the phylactery the Lich made and hid somewhere.

To flesh out the possibility of a Pseudonatural creature, consider a Mature Adult or Old Pseudonatural Black Dragon, possibly with Incantatrix levels.

Remember, use the ELH Pseudonatural template.

[DrKerosene]

Well, the MM2 Windghost has at-will Anti-Magic Field, Dispel Magic, and Spell Turning as SLAs. It never provokes conflict, and it flies away from clearly stronger enemies, but it's only real offensive ability is Swallow Whole. It's CR 14+ according to my use of Vorpal Tribbles CR Calculator, but it has an ability (Windsong) that only works if you have two or more. Maybe the party could be tasked with wrangling a swarm.

I've also looked at the Vaporighu (CR 9) which has an ability that dissolves weapons or armor in one turn, if they fail a reflex save (the effect can be washed-off as a full-round action before the next turn), they also have a 100% chance to summon a Night Hag. So that can be a cheap way to add couple extra minions and force players to waste actions. The Yagnoloths in MM2 are a tiny bit under CR'd (listed as CR10), but they have two abilities that can stun for multiple rounds in a row (then they can energy drain stunned targets).

Is there a decent creature you could apply the Mob template to?

[Segev]

One way to approach it is to learn from your players. Anything they can do, you can build an NPC to do. This isn't to say that you should always counter your players with their evil clones; it's to suggest that the same tactics they use are open to others of similar level.

Those elemental monoliths that lasted two rounds could have been nothing but a distraction so that the wizard who summoned them could escape or set up the battlefield more to his liking.

What are the party's goals? Don't count on hard-counters and direct opposition; give them competition, instead. They're not just trying to engage in delicate and tense negotiation; there's a Bard of similar or higher level (possibly with a party of his own backing him, or possibly mostly on his own) who represents another powerful kingdom or noble who seeks the same thing the party does...and won't share if he gets it. They're not just trying to beat this Temple Guardian to get to the Great Vault beyond; they're trying to get there before the treasure hunters from a rival guild who are seeking to take advantage of the party's distraction and breaking down of defenses to sneak in and out first. And even if they get there first, they ahve to get the loot out without it being stolen. They're not merely seeking to rescue the princess from the dragon; they have to figure out which dragon has the princess (and which princess is the right one).

Divinations can help! But what goes around comes around, and the dragon can scry-and-kidnap right back. Anti-divination magics can keep the dragon from doing this, but he likely had similar to keep the party from finding him in the first place.



But most importantly, take advantage of their powers! Plan your adventures such that the very powers which give you trouble are required to even get through the door, let alone try to defeat it.

Teleport causing you headaches because they bypass your journeys and the time you anticipated them taking? Instead, design it with the intent that they will have to teleport there. And then design it with the intent that dimension door be used as a regular means of getting around within the dungeon.

Uberdiplomacy and glibness making your NPCs putty in the PCs' hands? Drop them into hostile situations where that's required just to get a civil word. Once they've made somebody Friendly, they finally can get help identifying the social structure of the area. Require them to have many different allies working together to solve a problem; diplomacy will win them over, but they're going to NEED it just to get the chance to try. Once they have it, your party still has to solve the problem; their army of allies just lets them, again, get their foot in the metaphorical door.

Party treating Elemental Monoliths as speed bumps? Have them used by enemies as speed bumps intended to slow the party down, rather than to actually stop them.

[Molan]

I've had a lot of success with layered challenges. So not just multiple enemies but multiple obstacles that present an ever increasing level of danger.

I.e. The party has to cross a chasm they weren't prepared for and super high wind speeds make crossing a challenge. As they begin to fly over / teleport, a powerful caster attacks the fighter's will save and a big monster shows up behind them while other ranged menaces appear on the other side of the ledge right after.

A caster summons an HP pile and then hits one PC really hard while two others are dismantling it. Maybe part of the room is trapped, part is blanketed by an illusion. Enemies with PC levels can be deadly too.

Book of Challenges has given me a lot of inspiration for my own death traps of this type.

[Molan]

I've had a lot of success with layered challenges. So not just multiple enemies but multiple obstacles that present an ever increasing level of danger.

I.e. The party has to cross a chasm they weren't prepared for and super high wind speeds make crossing a challenge. As they begin to fly over / teleport, a powerful caster attacks the fighter's will save and a big monster shows up behind them while other ranged menaces appear on the other side of the ledge right after.

A caster summons an HP pile and then hits one PC really hard while two others are dismantling it. Maybe part of the room is trapped, part is blanketed by an illusion. Enemies with PC levels can be deadly too.

Book of Challenges has given me a lot of inspiration for my own death traps of this type.

Almost forgot. Don't forget about giving your mobs magic items, that can level the playing field, and use spell casters to counter their magic. Observe what types of spells the casters tend to favor, and try to come up with situations to thwart them. A dungeon of attrition can help -- maybe you have three major challenges at the beginning, middle and end and smaller ones in between. If they have a lot of spell diversity and they bring out the big guns often and early they could start to run dry near the end. If you can come up with an IC reason why they should t just port out and back in then they're in trouble. This is cheesy but if you REALLY can't come up with a a good idea to that effect then just wizard-did-it a cloister effect on the dungeon that prevents external scries, summons and teleports.

[Auron3991]

Play their expectations. People tend to have set ways to deal with specific problems and situations, it's just human nature. So find a way to cause those established plans to backfire. Check AOE damage against support columns, have antimagic contingency traps where they would normally teleport to, have enemies split and multiply as they take damage, put oozes in their drinks, etc.

Remember, the PCs aren't the only ones with access to magic, enemies don't have to be stupid, and just because the monster manuals are filled with examples to use does not mean you can't go off and make your own.

[Brova]

just because the monster manuals are filled with examples to use does not mean you can't go off and make your own.

I somewhat disagree with this. It's fine to add templates or class levels, but making your own monsters is dangerous. Part of allowing the PC's actions to have meaning is having elements of the game world behave in a predictable manner. If monsters show up with abilities that can't be predicted, the PCs lose a great deal of agency.

[Uniquoi]

I somewhat disagree with this. It's fine to add templates or class levels, but making your own monsters is dangerous. Part of allowing the PC's actions to have meaning is having elements of the game world behave in a predictable manner. If monsters show up with abilities that can't be predicted, the PCs lose a great deal of agency.

I would agree with you in low-op games, but if the PCs are as highly-optimised and flexible as this thread would suggest then throwing them a curve ball such as custom monsters would not be bad at all. In fact, it could be a good refresher to let them come up with plans on the fly to deal with it at each round if they are used to knowing how all monsters act.

Of course, with all curve balls, you probably shouldn't be trying to aim it at their face.

[ScrivenerofDoom]

Shadow demons normally work well.

Incorporeal + touch attacks + vile damage is a nice combination.

[Janthkin]

I somewhat disagree with this. It's fine to add templates or class levels, but making your own monsters is dangerous. Part of allowing the PC's actions to have meaning is having elements of the game world behave in a predictable manner. If monsters show up with abilities that can't be predicted, the PCs lose a great deal of agency.There are quite a few spells devoted to telling you about monsters, and Knowledge checks to let the characters know about the world they inhabit.

That's NOT the same as the players knowing what a monster can do just from the description. I often "reskin" monsters to fit thematically, while changing their appearance significantly. If they make the appropriate knowledge checks, they may find out what the base monster was.

[Molan]

There are quite a few spells devoted to telling you about monsters, and Knowledge checks to let the characters know about the world they inhabit.

That's NOT the same as the players knowing what a monster can do just from the description. I often "reskin" monsters to fit thematically, while changing their appearance significantly. If they make the appropriate knowledge checks, they may find out what the base monster was.

I ran a zombie apocalypse situation for my PCs a while back, followed a L4D theme (yes there is a point to this besides zombies and video game parodies).

Infected were 1 HD humans with the zombie template that had just been turned/were in the process of turning. PCs had to make spot and knowledge checks to identify civilians that were "going under" and not getting ambushed.

Zombies were 4 HD humans with a zombie template but they had bonuses to attack to make them more dangerous -- higher likelihood of getting bitten. Any infected that bit a PC (I only used bite attacks for the first two types) forced a fort save so in volume this became an issue.

Ghouls were the jumpy-things. Gave them bonuses to jump, hide, climb and gave them Improved Grapple. That and their stun attack + disease on the bite made them dangerous.

List goes on. Witches (goddamn invincible little blights) were Geists that behaved differently.

Point of all of this is, Janthkin's idea isn't far off base. I modified existing monsters and rules slightly to scale with the PCs (ECL 5-11 for the whole run of it) and to force them to think a bit more rather then just bounding through everything willy nilly.

[Auron3991]

I somewhat disagree with this. It's fine to add templates or class levels, but making your own monsters is dangerous. Part of allowing the PC's actions to have meaning is having elements of the game world behave in a predictable manner. If monsters show up with abilities that can't be predicted, the PCs lose a great deal of agency.

This would be true if the custom monster was a one of random encounter with little to no build up, but I don't run my customs like that. They're usually part of a specific encounter set and used multiple times, so the PCs may be surprised the first time around, maybe even the second, but they have absolutely no excuse further down the road. So it really ends up being no different than using a monster they've never encountered before.

To give an example, what's the difference if no one in the group ever faced a beholder and one was thrown at them or if a custom monster of equivalent CR was used?