I got a challenge for you, try to make characters that emulate old classes.

[Rfkannen]

clarrification; What I mean is make characters that fit the fluff(and preferably the mechanics) of options(classes/kits/prcs/paragon paths) from older editions without any homebrew. What inspired this was people talking about how to make a warlord in 5e, and all the cool builds people thought of to mimic the class. So what can you guys do for other classes?



Here are some cool options from earlier editions to start you guys out.


sohei
horizon walker
sha'ir
dragonfire adept
malconvolker
blade (the bard kit)
acrobat
elementalist (water?)


__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________

no one want to start? Then I will! Lets see, I always thought that scouts were fun

Let see the main features of a scout

blind-sight
they move fast
skirmish(probably not possible to implement)
stealth
trap finding
evasion


okay so the obvious choice is ranger for fluff, but the mechanics seem to fit rogue more. You get the stealth, the evasion, the blind-sight, all of that. But you don't get trap finding or movement increases.

So I would say that a barbarian dip would be good, you get both of those.


So here would be my personally attempt to make a 3.5e scout in 5e.

14 assassin rouge/ 6 eagle totem barbarian. Background outlander. Feats; mobile, skulker, sharpshooter(or alternatively two weapon fighting, the best thing for this built would really be thrown axes as they are strength based, .

In combat the best thing to do would probably to go sneaking around with an arrow until the enemy notices you, at which point you run. If they catch you pull out a rapier and use strength with it.

Or alternitivly if you use thrown weapons than it would work best, but if you want archery it should work fine.


or of course if you just want the fluff an outlander rogue or spelless hunter ranger should do fine.

What do you think?

[djreynolds]

someone had asked about a spell-less ranger and I said you don't need it because its right there.

Start as a barbarian with outlander, go wolf for 4. Grab martial adept, trust me. Then grab battlemaster for 8, now you have 5 superiority die, and then grab rogue, thief is fine or assassin for 6 level and now you have 4 skills with expertise. That's level 18 and you can disperse the last 2 levels as you want. Probably just as strong if not stronger than the spell-less ranger.

Horizon walker would be tough, but bard would be my chassis because of steal spell and you'd need skills but access to some teleportation access. I'll have to get back to you on that

[Malifice]

sohei
horizon walker
sha'ir
dragonfire adept
malconvolker
blade (the bard kit)
acrobat
elementalist (water?)


Sohei = Paladin/ Bard
Dragonfire adept = refluffed warlock
Blade = Valor Bard (maybe with some swashbuckler and fighter levels)
Acrobat = Rogue w expertise in acrobatics and athletic feat. Splash of monk for increased jump distance.

I struggle to come up with a class or concept that I cant emulate with 5e's ruleset, that is both viable at all levels and online no later than 2nd level.

[ImSAMazing]

Wow this is a really cool idea for a thread.

[Socko525]

It's funny that you bring this up now. I just posted a video yesterday about my top 10 older classes/prestige classes I'd love to see added as archetypes to 5e (link is in my sig)

Aside from just trying to emulate them, I do think a handful of the ones you picked could be refluffed into their own archetypes.

For instance I think a dragonfire adept would be the basis for a Dragon Patron warlock (honestly I'm surprised that wasn't base game/added via Unearthed Arcana during Tyranny of Dragons). I would guess maybe you'd tweak eldritch blast to have it be a breath weapon? Maybe give them draconic origin sorcerer's bump to AC/extra hit points per level?

You also mentioned scout. I initially was thinking this could be a rogue archetype but skirmish+sneak attack I think would be too much. Maybe a fighter/ranger archetype? I feel like scout as a ranger archetype would be too similar to hunter ranger

I'd love to see Dragon Shaman return as a paladin oath..I guess call it Oath of the Dragon?

[tieren]

I'd like to see a Greenwood ranger, like the old kit.

I looked at druid, ranger, and nature cleric. The oath of the ancients paladin capstone is pretty close but thats a long time to wait.

[Rfkannen]

someone had asked about a spell-less ranger and I said you don't need it because its right there.

Start as a barbarian with outlander, go wolf for 4. Grab martial adept, trust me. Then grab battlemaster for 8, now you have 5 superiority die, and then grab rogue, thief is fine or assassin for 6 level and now you have 4 skills with expertise. That's level 18 and you can disperse the last 2 levels as you want. Probably just as strong if not stronger than the spell-less ranger.

Horizon walker would be tough, but bard would be my chassis because of steal spell and you'd need skills but access to some teleportation access. I'll have to get back to you on that

That works remarkably well for a spelless ranger, actually might be better than the one we actually have now, feels a bit more rangery!

yeah I put horizon walker on there largely because I had no idea how to do it. Bard actualy makes sense, I did not think of that, I mean you can just grab spells that mimic the abilities, and you still have martial abilities. Good one!



Sohei = Paladin/ Bard
Dragonfire adept = refluffed warlock
Blade = Valor Bard (maybe with some swashbuckler and fighter levels)
Acrobat = Rogue w expertise in acrobatics and athletic feat. Splash of monk for increased jump distance.

I struggle to come up with a class or concept that I cant emulate with 5e's ruleset, that is both viable at all levels and online no later than 2nd level.

Sohei as a paladin bard? Why? I mean traditionaly the sohei was kind of a monk (deflect arrow, flurry of blows) / barbarian (ki frenzy)/ paladin (spellcasting). Why bard? I will beleive you I just don't see it.

oh wow yeah. I did not think of dragonfire adept as a warlock. I mean they even have invoctions.

Yeah blade is what the valor bard is, though if I remember correctly they had a skill exactly like panash and stuff like martial manuvers. So something like rogue 9/fighter 3/bard 8 at level 20 (though if you are starting at a lower level than just bard with a dip). But that would be a pretty bad build, fits the fluff though!

Yep, that seems about right for acrobat.


Good ones! any others you can think of? I would love to hear them!


Wow this is a really cool idea for a thread.
thank you :D


It's funny that you bring this up now. I just posted a video yesterday about my top 10 older classes/prestige classes I'd love to see added as archetypes to 5e (link is in my sig)

Aside from just trying to emulate them, I do think a handful of the ones you picked could be refluffed into their own archetypes.

For instance I think a dragonfire adept would be the basis for a Dragon Patron warlock (honestly I'm surprised that wasn't base game/added via Unearthed Arcana during Tyranny of Dragons). I would guess maybe you'd tweak eldritch blast to have it be a breath weapon? Maybe give them draconic origin sorcerer's bump to AC/extra hit points per level?

You also mentioned scout. I initially was thinking this could be a rogue archetype but skirmish+sneak attack I think would be too much. Maybe a fighter/ranger archetype? I feel like scout as a ranger archetype would be too similar to hunter ranger

I'd love to see Dragon Shaman return as a paladin oath..I guess call it Oath of the Dragon?

Cool vid!

Yeah a lot of these things would be cool as archetypes, I would tottaly play a dragon warlock, I was just thinking about how we can work with what we have.

I'd like to see a Greenwood ranger, like the old kit.

I looked at druid, ranger, and nature cleric. The oath of the ancients paladin capstone is pretty close but thats a long time to wait.

afb at the moment, what was the greenwood ranger like?

[Demonic Spoon]

A scout is just ranged rogue with Survival, Stealth, and Perception proficiencies/expertise. I think you're overthinking it by dipping Barbarian - there's nothing scout-ish about raging, and cunning action (dash) already covers "moving fast"

[Malifice]

Sohei as a paladin bard? Why? I mean traditionaly the sohei was kind of a monk (deflect arrow, flurry of blows) / barbarian (ki frenzy)/ paladin (spellcasting). Why bard? I will beleive you I just don't see it.

My bad, meant Paladin/ Monk.

It fits to a tee.


oh wow yeah. I did not think of dragonfire adept as a warlock. I mean they even have invoctions.

Dont be shocked to see a Dragon pact warlock in time that mirrors it perfectly.

Till then, refluffed fiend pact (fiendish vigor = draconic vigor etc) matches pretty darn nicely.


Yeah blade is what the valor bard is, though if I remember correctly they had a skill exactly like panash and stuff like martial manuvers. So something like rogue 9/fighter 3/bard 8 at level 20 (though if you are starting at a lower level than just bard with a dip). But that would be a pretty bad build, fits the fluff though!

Valor Bard plus Swashbuckler and 3 levels of Fighter is pretty darn effective as a blade.

Dual weapon fighting, action surge, bonus action cunning action dash for speed, combat inspiration, haste as a spell known, uncanny dodge, expertise in acrobatics and persuasion, swashbuckler initiative (cha to initiative and pseudo mobility). Your choice of Paladin smite spell pilfered from magical secrets.

I'd probably go with Rogue (Swash) 5, Fighter (BM) 3, Valor Bard 12.

[tieren]

afb at the moment, what was the greenwood ranger like?

High affinity with plants, permanent barkskin, speak with plants, could use photosynthesis instead of eating, could root to heal, could grow a third limb/branch, got a treant as a companion.

Had weakness to fire and some dex minuses.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sgWFcaDbx2c/U_XKb1pwY1I/AAAAAAAACQ4/l1CklsI3u5E/s1600/greenwoodRanger.jpg

[Rfkannen]

A scout is just ranged rogue with Survival, Stealth, and Perception proficiencies/expertise. I think you're overthinking it by dipping Barbarian - there's nothing scout-ish about raging, and cunning action (dash) already covers "moving fast"

I most definitely am, I just wanted trap sense really. I did not realy think about rage, yeah it is pretty un-scout so I suppose rogue would work, I just wanted to get as close as possible. Can't fault me for trying though.


My bad, meant Paladin/ Monk.

It fits to a tee.



Dont be shocked to see a Dragon pact warlock in time that mirrors it perfectly.

Till then, refluffed fiend pact (fiendish vigor = draconic vigor etc) matches pretty darn nicely.



Valor Bard plus Swashbuckler and 3 levels of Fighter is pretty darn effective as a blade.

Dual weapon fighting, action surge, bonus action cunning action dash for speed, combat inspiration, haste as a spell known, uncanny dodge, expertise in acrobatics and persuasion, swashbuckler initiative (cha to initiative and pseudo mobility). Your choice of Paladin smite spell pilfered from magical secrets.

I'd probably go with Rogue (Swash) 5, Fighter (BM) 3, Valor Bard 12.
I suppose it does, no ki frenzy though. I suppose it is as close as you will get.

I would not be shocked no, seems like a cool idea that people would want.

Seems like a good build that fits it well, might play that for a oneshot some time.




High affinity with plants, permanent barkskin, speak with plants, could use photosynthesis instead of eating, could root to heal, could grow a third limb/branch, got a treant as a companion.

Had weakness to fire and some dex minuses.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sgWFcaDbx2c/U_XKb1pwY1I/AAAAAAAACQ4/l1CklsI3u5E/s1600/greenwoodRanger.jpg

oh yeah that does not sound like a thing that 5e is capable of at the moment, cool idea but would need some new material added.

[eastmabl]

Should the scout have a spice of rogue to him? Admittedly, making a requirement of movement to get the 10' to get the sneak attack equivalent would be pointless with 5e's easy access sneak attack, but I think that the class loses something without some sneak attack.

[Rfkannen]

Oh I just thought of something, what classes do you think can't be emulated? (I ask so people can try to emulate them)

[georgie_leech]

Oh I just thought of something, what classes do you think can't be emulated? (I ask so people can try to emulate them)

I wonder if the Runepriest from 4e would be doable. They choose between 2 (or more with certain specialisations) active states that provide passive buffs to their party and alter how their attacks/spells work.

[Malifice]

I wonder if the Runepriest from 4e would be doable. They choose between 2 (or more with certain specialisations) active states that provide passive buffs to their party and alter how their attacks/spells work.

Lore Bard/ Paladin (refluffed)?

Inspiration dice, Paladin auras and spells for party buffs. Wears armor, hits stuff. Has religious bent. Knows things.

[georgie_leech]

Lore Bard/ Paladin (refluffed)?

Inspiration dice, Paladin auras and spells for party buffs. Wears armor, hits stuff. Has religious bent. Knows things.

That does seem like it could be pretty close, yeah. Make sure their background says they're a smith, and we're just about good to go.

[Malifice]

That does seem like it could be pretty close, yeah. Make sure their background says they're a smith, and we're just about good to go.

Maybe a bit of knowledge cleric too to get the ability to use any tools with proficiency and expertise in history and religion.

[Malifice]

That does seem like it could be pretty close, yeah. Make sure their background says they're a smith, and we're just about good to go.

Maybe a bit of knowledge cleric too to get the ability to use any tools with proficiency and expertise in history and religion and that cantrip that grants a d4 to skill checks. (Dwarven ancestor guidance or whatever you want to fluff it as).

[Princess]

Duskblade (3.5's PH2) - Fighter (Eldritch Knight) is already pretty much a Duskblade, and if you make a variant Human with Magic Inititate or make a High Elf you can start with an attack cantrip at level one to use as your ranged attack instead of a bow or javelin - and tada! You're basically a Duskblade. Or make a Drow Warlock (Blade) with high dex and a rapier.

Beguiler (3.5's PH2) - make a Bard (Lore), choose the Criminal or Charlatan background, and ask your GM if you can remove all of the musical instrument references for Wizard/Sorcerer foci and some other tool proficiency (disguise kit or thieves' tools especcially) instead. Or, just play a Wizard with one of those backgrounds focused in enchantment or illusion and don't take many evocation or conjuration spells.

Swordsage (3.5's Tome of Battle) - Monk (Any)/Fighter (Battle Master). Any combination of those two will net you a good Swordsage, but I'd probably aim for ending up at Fighter (Battle Master) 11+ for Extra Attack (2), and either Open Hand or Shadow depending on how much you like Shadow's spell options. Way of the Elements makes sense if you really miss Phoenix Mage, but a Fighter (Battle Master)/Sorcerer (Fire Dragon) might work better for that idea.

[Vortling]

Oh I just thought of something, what classes do you think can't be emulated? (I ask so people can try to emulate them)

Mechanically speaking I believe the following can't be emulated:

Incarnate
Totemist
Dragonfire Adept
Any of the leader classes from 4e

[Malifice]

Mechanically speaking I believe the following can't be emulated:

Incarnate
Totemist
Dragonfire Adept
Any of the leader classes from 4e

Dragonfire adept has been already suggested. I dont know enough about the other two (incarnate and totemist) to comment.

Leader classes from 4e cant be emulated? Really. What about Warlord?

Human BM Fighter (with rally, commanders strike, maneuvering attack, distracting strike to grant allies bonus action healing, movement as reactions, extra attacks and advantage on attacks), action surge, the protection fighting style (for at will defending of adjacent allies not on your turn) and the inspiring leader feat (for OOC buffing).

Add in some sentinel and martial adept for some extra dice along the journey and you're set.

For a different feel, add in some Paladin later on for auras (and buffs via spells like healing word and bless) and/ or some Bard for expertise in leadership and tactics (persuasion and history), more party buffs via inspiration dice and combat inspiration, the heroism spell and other magical buffs, and song of rest (re-fluffed to be called 'inspiring speech' of rest)

[Vortling]

Dragonfire adept has been already suggested. I dont know enough about the other two (incarnate and totemist) to comment.

Leader classes from 4e cant be emulated? Really. What about Warlord?

Human BM Fighter (with rally, commanders strike, maneuvering attack, distracting strike to grant allies bonus action healing, movement as reactions, extra attacks and advantage on attacks), action surge, the protection fighting style (for at will defending of adjacent allies not on your turn) and the inspiring leader feat (for OOC buffing).

Add in some sentinel and martial adept for some extra dice along the journey and you're set.

For a different feel, add in some Paladin later on for auras (and buffs via spells like healing word and bless) and/ or some Bard for expertise in leadership and tactics (persuasion and history), more party buffs via inspiration dice and combat inspiration, the heroism spell and other magical buffs, and song of rest (re-fluffed to be called 'inspiring speech' of rest)

My apologies, I missed the dragonfire adept info. However it does appear that some critical info is missing from the dragonfire adept suggestions. I'm not super familiar on warlocks in 5e. I've only seen them play and not played one myself. Would you mind explaining how they cover the critical part of the dragonfire adept, specifically the at-will, party friendly, AOE damage and crowd control? I admit when I watched our warlock player he didn't seem to have any of that but it is entirely possible that he didn't pick up that particular item as to my knowledge he wasn't trying to emulate the dragonfire adept.

As far as the 4e leader emulation goes, 5e as a system is lacking one of the crucial abilities necessary for emulation. This is the effective bonus (minor, swift, immediate, etc) action healing that still leaves them capable of assisting the entire party in ways other than damage. To clarify when I say "effective healing" I mean healing sufficient to heal more than one hit from a level (CR) appropriate enemy. While some classes have bonus action healing, most of them fall squarely into the "ineffective unless the recipient PC is making death saves" category. The additional restriction of not being allow to cast a non cantrip spell when casting a bonus action spell makes assisting the party in non damaging ways nearly impossible. It's not so much that the classes lack the fluffy bits as the system has removed this capability from everyone, hence the lack of ability to emulate.

[georgie_leech]

They can do the same sort of things though. They might not do it as well, because the basic ideas of the system are different, but they still do it. It's not about "can we make them do the same things with the same efficiency," it's about "can we get them to do something similar." Like, the Runepriest up there is a decent approximation, even if it doesn't have the same 2-for-1 ability choice that 4e Runepriests had. If we demand the former, we run into the problem of the 5e Wizard not emulating the 3.5 or 4e Wizard due to fundamental shifts in game mechanics regarding spell durations and mechanics.

[Vortling]

They can do the same sort of things though. They might not do it as well, because the basic ideas of the system are different, but they still do it. It's not about "can we make them do the same things with the same efficiency," it's about "can we get them to do something similar." Like, the Runepriest up there is a decent approximation, even if it doesn't have the same 2-for-1 ability choice that 4e Runepriests had. If we demand the former, we run into the problem of the 5e Wizard not emulating the 3.5 or 4e Wizard due to fundamental shifts in game mechanics regarding spell durations and mechanics.

I disagree, in two parts. First in the part of the 5e warlock and the dragonfire adept. I have not seen anything from our warlock player that would be the same sorts of things that a dragonfire adept can do. Mostly just eldritch blast and occasionally burning hands from the warlock.

Second, as far as the efficiency goes, how low can you go in effectiveness and still be declared similar enough emulate a class? Would you say that you can emulate the 5e cleric with any other class by having that class take the Healer feat? I believe that at a certain level of ineffectiveness you lose the ability to declare the similarity because they're not really doing the same things anymore.

[georgie_leech]

I disagree, in two parts. First in the part of the 5e warlock and the dragonfire adept. I have not seen anything from our warlock player that would be the same sorts of things that a dragonfire adept can do. Mostly just eldritch blast and occasionally burning hands from the warlock.

I wasn't addressing the warlock-dfa bit, but the idea that you couldn't make a Cleric. When that's its own class. That would be like claiming Barbarians aren't like Barbarians because their Rage has different mechanics. When they do the same basic function but that function takes a different form.


Second, as far as the efficiency goes, how low can you go in effectiveness and still be declared similar enough emulate a class? Would you say that you can emulate the 5e cleric with any other class by having that class take the Healer feat? I believe that at a certain level of ineffectiveness you lose the ability to declare the similarity because they're not really doing the same things anymore.

When that level of effectiveness means they are no longer doing similar things. The ability to heal a few hit points is not the same thing as curing with a word and bringing down the wrath of their deity by channeling divine energies. Which is what both the 4e and 5e Clerics are doing. The fact that that healing is less effective is part of a system wide healing change, not due to any lack on the Cleric's part.

[Malifice]

My apologies, I missed the dragonfire adept info. However it does appear that some critical info is missing from the dragonfire adept suggestions. I'm not super familiar on warlocks in 5e. I've only seen them play and not played one myself. Would you mind explaining how they cover the critical part of the dragonfire adept, specifically the at-will, party friendly, AOE damage and crowd control? I admit when I watched our warlock player he didn't seem to have any of that but it is entirely possible that he didn't pick up that particular item as to my knowledge he wasn't trying to emulate the dragonfire adept.

As far as the 4e leader emulation goes, 5e as a system is lacking one of the crucial abilities necessary for emulation. This is the effective bonus (minor, swift, immediate, etc) action healing that still leaves them capable of assisting the entire party in ways other than damage. To clarify when I say "effective healing" I mean healing sufficient to heal more than one hit from a level (CR) appropriate enemy. While some classes have bonus action healing, most of them fall squarely into the "ineffective unless the recipient PC is making death saves" category. The additional restriction of not being allow to cast a non cantrip spell when casting a bonus action spell makes assisting the party in non damaging ways nearly impossible. It's not so much that the classes lack the fluffy bits as the system has removed this capability from everyone, hence the lack of ability to emulate.

I didnt say the class were identical, just they approximate each other well enough.

The Warlord has got the ability to bonus action (grant temp hit points) via the Rally manouver. It can also heal itself with as a bonus action with second wind. It also bolsers the party OOC with the inspiring leader feat. If bonus action healing is really desired, then a dip into Paladin for healing word (bonus action healing) is also thematically and mechanically appropriate.

It can also grant other PC's move actions as reactions, grant them advantage on attack rolls, and grant them out of turn attacks. Via the protection style it can also grant reaction protection to nearby allies.

It models the Warlord pretty well. Add Paladin for auras if you want a more 'Marshal' feel.

[Vortling]

When that level of effectiveness means they are no longer doing similar things. The ability to heal a few hit points is not the same thing as curing with a word and bringing down the wrath of their deity by channeling divine energies. Which is what both the 4e and 5e Clerics are doing. The fact that that healing is less effective is part of a system wide healing change, not due to any lack on the Cleric's part.

I'd like to highlight the bolded part. That phrase right there is a good example of what I'm saying. Specifically that line is how I would compare the 5e and 4e clerics. The ability to heal a few hit points (5e cleric) is not the same thing as curing with a word and bringing down the wrath of their deity by channeling divine energies (4e cleric). Does that clarify why I believe you can't emulate any of the leaders from 4e in 5e? The effectiveness drop off of the capabilities is just too much for me to see any similarities.

[georgie_leech]

I'd like to highlight the bolded part. That phrase right there is a good example of what I'm saying. Specifically that line is how I would compare the 5e and 4e clerics. The ability to heal a few hit points (5e cleric) is not the same thing as curing with a word and bringing down the wrath of their deity by channeling divine energies (4e cleric). Does that clarify why I believe you can't emulate any of the leaders from 4e in 5e? The effectiveness drop off of the capabilities is just too much for me to see any similarities.

Let me rephrase. The ability to heal a few hit points on an adjacent target with a specific item is not the same as being able to channel divine power to cause wounds to vanish and afflictions to be cured. It may be less effective (possibly, there are some powerful things a Cleric can do at high level), but a Cleric in 5e is still doing the same sorts of things they would be doing in 4e. 4e Clerics were one of the better healers, and so are 5e Clerics. The fact that healing is less often a good use of action has more to do with a shift in healing works (the change from healing surges back to flat hp) than anything the Cleric is lacking.

[Vortling]

Let me rephrase. The ability to heal a few hit points on an adjacent target with a specific item is not the same as being able to channel divine power to cause wounds to vanish and afflictions to be cured. It may be less effective (possibly, there are some powerful things a Cleric can do at high level), but a Cleric in 5e is still doing the same sorts of things they would be doing in 4e. 4e Clerics were one of the better healers, and so are 5e Clerics. The fact that healing is less often a good use of action has more to do with a shift in healing works (the change from healing surges back to flat hp) than anything the Cleric is lacking.

I believe we're talking past each other too much for this discussion to go anywhere. As such I will bow out.

[charcoalninja]

I'd be curious to see the 4e Assassin, 4e Monk, and 4e Bladesinger done. The 4e Adept and Warden would be nice ones as well.

[georgie_leech]

I'd be curious to see the 4e Assassin, 4e Monk, and 4e Bladesinger done.

For the first, some combination of Assassin Rogue and Shadow Monk would probably do their job better. For the other two, which bits do you feel are missing from Monk and EK respectively?