Making Any Construct a Robot?

[unseenmage]

The Robot subtype has language (in the first sentence even) that implies any Construct can be made a Robot and the Craft Robot feat gives us a price for such.

It is assumed that the Robot Subtype's language is intended for DM use only, but does it unbalance anything to allow players to pay the 20,000gpxCR cost to upgrade their Golems, Homunculi, and Animated Objects with robot parts to give them the Robot Subtype as though it were more of a template?

Should this just be a rules interpretation or should a character have to burn a feat/discovery/archetype for this to be allowed?




Also, if the above were allowed, how would one go about pricing the addition of force fields and integrated weaponry?

My group and I have discussed and the force fields seem weak enough to just add in for free. There's even a suggested amount for the temporary hp they grant.

The Integrated Weaponry we figure one would just have to buy. The question is should there be a markup in price for combining the Integrated Weaponry into the construct itself. That they become natural weapons is kinda powerful, then again tech items are on the whole overcosted so that might be enough of a balancing factor.

Thoughts, advice, and criticisms welcome. Thanks in advance.

[Slithery D]

The final Iron Gods adventure path has rules on converting standard constructs to robot templates. You need two feats (technologist and craft robot) and a powered robotics lab. Then you need to have it make sense, like an iron golem trading the breath attack for an internal gas canister, and trading magic immunity for something similar on the tech side.

You can't upgrade/convert an existing construct, just build a unique robot with CR and abilities roughly like a Bestiary construct.

[unseenmage]

The final Iron Gods adventure path has rules on converting standard constructs to robot templates. You need two feats (technologist and craft robot) and a powered robotics lab. Then you need to have it make sense, like an iron golem trading the breath attack for an internal gas canister, and trading magic immunity for something similar on the tech side.

You can't upgrade/convert an existing construct, just build a unique robot with CR and abilities roughly like a Bestiary construct.

I was unaware of what the final portion of the Iron Gods AP contained as we're currently playing through it.

But you seem to contradict yourself here. You first say that part of the AP has, "...rules on converting standard constructs to robot templates.", then "You can't upgrade/convert an existing construct..."
In either case in our game we can upgrade existing constructs into robots. We've even homebrewed a custom Alchemist Discovery for my Construct Rider Alchemist so that he can first change his Improved Familiar Homunculus into a robot then later his Construct Mount into a robot without losing them.

My questions are more about the game balance issues and implications thereof. Apologies if I was unclear about that.

[Psyren]

But you seem to contradict yourself here. You first say that part of the AP has, "...rules on converting standard constructs to robot templates.", then "You can't upgrade/convert an existing construct..."

He means "you can follow the guidelines in order to make a custom version of an existing construct creature that has the robot subtype"; however you cannot "in-universe, take an existing, already-created construct and retroactively apply the robot subtype to it."

Basically, it has to be created as a robot, rather than being turned into one, much like you have to craft a weapon as masterwork, and can't simply apply masterwork after it's been created. (Barring magic anyway.)

And I would argue that you can't even do the first one, at least not without fiat. Craft Robot (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Craft%20Robot) only says you can make robots, which would mean reproducing a robot creature that already has an entry, like the Mannequin Robot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/robot/robot-mannequin). It wouldn't allow you to, say, make a Robot Iron Golem even though you can estimate the cost for such a thing, not without GM fiat that is.

Anyway, from a balance perspective it's pretty simple - the main difference between robots and other constructs is that the former are intelligent and get feats. Thus you'd generally increase their CR over an ordinary construct with the same abilities, much like an Awakened Animal. Also, if you're using a construct where the robot's weaknesses don't matter (e.g. one that's immune to criticals and/or electricity) you'd increase the CR further still.

[unseenmage]

Yeah, the way we're using the Robot Subtype, because it's fun, is that we're paying for a whole new Construct, and then we're applying the Robot Subtype as though it were a template.
The resultant robot is based on the normal construct but with robot traits. We're just not sure how to rule on the pricing of Integrated Weaponry and force fields.

Flavor-wise it's like the normal Construct is being Borg-ed only not nearly as quickly and for a hefty fee.


Now you mention it though, there will be a CR increase. Assuming the Robot Subtype was more of a Robot Template, would that CR increase apply before or after the pricing of the new Construct?

Also looking for suggestions as to what that CR increase should be. By necessity it'd need to be as simple as possible. Though I could see a different CR increase for adding Integrated Weaponry and/or base constructs which are immune to crits/electricity being reasonable.

[Psyren]

Now you mention it though, there will be a CR increase. Assuming the Robot Subtype was more of a Robot Template, would that CR increase apply before or after the pricing of the new Construct?

That's more or less what I was getting at - there is no "after." You're making it as a robot from the very start. Therefore the CR is higher from the very start and it should cost more to craft. Game-wise this makes sense - you're making a construct with all the abilities it had before, only intelligent and capable of possessing feats. Why wouldn't that be more expensive?



Also looking for suggestions as to what that CR increase should be. By necessity it'd need to be as simple as possible. Though I could see a different CR increase for adding Integrated Weaponry and/or base constructs which are immune to crits/electricity being reasonable.

I'd probably start from the CR increase to awakening something and go from there, though I'm not actually clear on what that would be.

[unseenmage]

That's more or less what I was getting at - there is no "after." You're making it as a robot from the very start. Therefore the CR is higher from the very start and it should cost more to craft. Game-wise this makes sense - you're making a construct with all the abilities it had before, only intelligent and capable of possessing feats. Why wouldn't that be more expensive?



I'd probably start from the CR increase to awakening something and go from there, though I'm not actually clear on what that would be.

On the topic of the CR increase, the Robot-Subtype-as-a-Template already doles out vulnerability to critical hits and vulnerability to electric damage. How much of our CR increase does this mitigate?


Do PF's CR calculations differ all that much from 3.x's CR calculations? Insofar as there were any calculations anyway.

[Psyren]

On the topic of the CR increase, the Robot-Subtype-as-a-Template already doles out vulnerability to critical hits and vulnerability to electric damage. How much of our CR increase does this mitigate?


Do PF's CR calculations differ all that much from 3.x's CR calculations? Insofar as there were any calculations anyway.

I'm afraid I have no idea... I've never used those rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingSpecialAbilities) in 3.5. The PF guidelines are here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterAdvancement.html).

All i can really offer is that you'd want to compare the finished product to a similar monster. An inevitable with the SLAs stripped out might be a good benchmark - they have many of the advantages of a construct type but also have intelligence and feats.

[unseenmage]

An update.

Have discussed with the DM and we've agreed that the vulnerabilities somewhat mitigate the need for a CR increase on the Robot-Subtype-as-a-Template.

That one has to build the initial Construct then pay the full price of 20,000gpxCR to make it a Robot is costly enough to balance any remaining CR increase Intelligence would impose.
That one requires access to the Robotics Laboratory pseudo artifact also contributed to my DM's decision.

The process goes as follows, build a base construct. Find a Robotics Laboratory. Pay for a whole new Robot using the base construct's CR. Force Fields are optional but can be ignored. Integrated Weaponry also optional and has to be purchased separately. Force Fields and Integrated Weaponry cannot be added at a later date.


Most fun plans I have for this is to permanently Animate Objects the corpses of some destroyed robots then later make them robots again by adding the Robot Subtype. They won't be back to their original functionality but that's kind of the point. :smallbiggrin:
(Oh, and I'm going to discuss making Animated Objects be affected by crit hits like regular constructs. That they're different just bugs me.)

[Psyren]

Have discussed with the DM and we've agreed that the vulnerabilities somewhat mitigate the need for a CR increase on the Robot-Subtype-as-a-Template.

Eh, I disagree with this but it's your game. Intelligence and feats in all your creations far outweighs them taking a little extra damage from crits and electricity, at least to me.

I agree that if you're going to do this, animated object-bots should be subject to criticals, otherwise that drawback has no meaning.

[unseenmage]

Eh, I disagree with this but it's your game. Intelligence and feats in all your creations far outweighs them taking a little extra damage from crits and electricity, at least to me.

I agree that if you're going to do this, animated object-bots should be subject to criticals, otherwise that drawback has no meaning.

It's less a problem at Int 10 but I know from experience that my Int 2 Construct Mount from Construct Rider has a heck of a time finding feats it can even take, let alone make use of.

Getting feats on your creations/minions in 3.x meant they'd get superpowers. There's a link in my sig to the best feats you can put on any creature/character in 3.x that illustrates what I mean.
When I tried to do the same for PF I got suggestions for Improved Init, Power Attack, and Iron Will. Not nearly as cool or powerful as Mindsight, Darkstalker, and Item Familiar.

PF feats and skills just aren't as overflowing with sheer unadulterated power as 3.x feats and skills. Or at least that's been my experience.