Prestige classes to compliment druid/warshaper?

[WarKitty]

So I'm working on a build that uses PHBII druid and warshaper, along with VoP. I'm really looking to play up the shapeshifting/melee damage aspect, even at the cost of spells. What sort of other classes can I take that would complement this archetype?

[LooseCannoneer]

Try a level or two of Monk. The WIS bonus to AC works while wildshaped.

[WarKitty]

Try a level or two of Monk. The WIS bonus to AC works while wildshaped.

Monk or fist of the forest? I presume they don't stack.

[Troacctid]

Druid 16/Warshaper 4 (not necessarily in that order). You want all 16 levels of Druid so you can eventually get the Elemental Fury form.

[icefractal]

If you only care about shapeshifting, there's Master of Many Forms. It gives up spellcasting, so it's lower power than a straight Druid, but honestly Druid is powerful enough that a MoMF is still plenty good in most parties.

[AvatarVecna]

Monk or fist of the forest? I presume they don't stack.

In fact, they do stack. They are both untyped AC bonuses, they're based on different attributes, and they're different class features entirely. Hell, you could stack Monk/Unarmed Swordsage if you wanted. Something I like doing with Monk/Druid builds (although it's not applicable here) is taking the Deadly Hunter Druid ACF from UA that gives the Druid, among other things, an monk-like AC bonus based on Wisdom. Double Wis to AC on a Wis-based caster is all kinds of cheesy. That gives up Wild Shape, though, so it's not as applicable here.

Anyway, to answer the original question, MoMF is obviously pretty awesome for a shapechanging based build, as is Master Transmogrifist, but the first is more applicable to you.

[torrasque666]

In fact, they do stack. They are both untyped AC bonuses, they're based on different attributes, and they're different class features entirely. Hell, you could stack Monk/Unarmed Swordsage if you wanted.
Technically, Swordsage specifies light armor, not light armor or unarmored as other class features do. Some claim this is a typo, but by RAW it stands.

[WarKitty]

MoMF is sadly unavailable on shapeshift druid. Unlike Warshaper, MoMF specifically requires wildshape.

[AvatarVecna]

Technically, Swordsage specifies light armor, not light armor or unarmored as other class features do. Some claim this is a typo, but by RAW it stands.

Hence why I specifically referred to the Unarmed Swordsage variant, which is all but tabled out as an alternate Swordsage, and is close enough to RAW that the Playground tends to accept it as such.

[torrasque666]

Hence why I specifically referred to the Unarmed Swordsage variant, which is all but tabled out as an alternate Swordsage, and is close enough to RAW that the Playground tends to accept it as such.
Which also makes no mention of changing the armor bonus to be unarmored, just removes the light armor proficiency. Glaring typo, but it is what it is.

[AvatarVecna]

Which also makes no mention of changing the armor bonus to be unarmored, just removes the light armor proficiency. Glaring typo, but it is what it is.

...huh, never noticed that. Probably belongs in the Dysfunction thread. Oh well, no DM is gonna look at that and go "yeah, the intention was clearly to give unarmed swordsages an AC bonus that can never apply".

[torrasque666]

...huh, never noticed that. Probably belongs in the Dysfunction thread. Oh well, no DM is gonna look at that and go "yeah, the intention was clearly to give unarmed swordsages an AC bonus that can never apply".
Which is why I say to always go over exactly how the unarmed swordsage will work with the DM, just like any other Adaption of a class.

[Troacctid]

Thinking about it, there might be some merit to going for the 5th level of Warshaper. Shifting as a move action does let you shift twice per turn.


...huh, never noticed that. Probably belongs in the Dysfunction thread. Oh well, no DM is gonna look at that and go "yeah, the intention was clearly to give unarmed swordsages an AC bonus that can never apply".

It can apply. Just wear light armor. It's the unarmed swordsage, not the unarmored swordsage. Most light armors don't even have a penalty for nonproficiency.

[WarKitty]

What I'm really looking for is to try to fill the barbarian role, without having to use equipment. And with shapeshifting of course.

[Nifft]

...huh, never noticed that. Probably belongs in the Dysfunction thread. Oh well, no DM is gonna look at that and go "yeah, the intention was clearly to give unarmed swordsages an AC bonus that can never apply".

Not unless you try to stack it with the Monk bonus. :belkar:

[Andezzar]

Even if you get both class features to work at the same time they still wouldn't stack. Both class features are called AC Bonus, as such they are considered the same source.

[AvatarVecna]

Even if you get both class features to work at the same time they still wouldn't stack. Both class features are called AC Bonus, as such they are considered the same source.

Except they're completely different classes. And even if having the same name is enough by RAW to prevent it from stacking, most DMs aren't that nitpicky (although they might take issue with it for other reasons).

[Nifft]

Even if you get both class features to work at the same time they still wouldn't stack. Both class features are called AC Bonus, as such they are considered the same source.

Hmm.



Class Features

Spells
A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list.



Class Features

Spells
A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.


I think that your interpretation would make the Mystic Theurge even worse than it currently is.

I think the class features Spells does stack with the class feature Spells.


That said, I certainly wouldn't allow a Swordage's AC Bonus to stack with a Monk's AC Bonus.

[torrasque666]

Except they're completely different classes. And even if having the same name is enough by RAW to prevent it from stacking, most DMs aren't that nitpicky (although they might take issue with it for other reasons).
Doesn't matter. Two classes that offer Divine Grace doesn't get Cha to Saves twice.

[WarKitty]

Hmm.




I think that your interpretation would make the Mystic Theurge even worse than it currently is.

I think the class features Spells does stack with the class feature Spells.


That said, I certainly wouldn't allow a Swordage's AC Bonus to stack with a Monk's AC Bonus.

The real question here is whether Monk's AC bonus would stack with FotF's AC bonus. And if not which one I should pick.

[AvatarVecna]

The real question here is whether Monk's AC bonus would stack with FotF's AC bonus. And if not which one I should pick.

Half the argument for the non-stacking of Monk and Swordsage is that they're both Wis to AC; they're untyped bonuses of exactly the same number based on exactly the same stat; FotF is based on Con, not Wis. That's how I understand it, anyway.

Also, it should be noted that FotF also probably stacks with the Deepwarden ability giving Con to AC, since they're not the same name.

[Andezzar]

I think the class features Spells does stack with the class feature Spells.No, they don't, they are tracked separately. If they stacked cleric would increase wizard CL, spells per day etc.

Mystic Theurge isn't a problem either, because this class advances both class features. You can have several class features of the same name, as long as they do not apply a modifiers to the same die roll you benefit from both. Having more than one class feature with the same name is only a problem when trying to stack modifiers.


The real question here is whether Monk's AC bonus would stack with FotF's AC bonus. And if not which one I should pick.It does not. Both bonuses come from the same source (a class feature named AC Bonus). That their bonuses are calculated differently (one adds the CON modifier the other WIS) is irrelevant. For the choice, pick the one you have the higher modifier. As to which modifier to boost, decide based on what else you do with that ability score.
Also since you have both class features it does not matter if at some point the previously lower ability score becomes the higher one. The highest modifier always applies.

[Nifft]

The real question here is whether Monk's AC bonus would stack with FotF's AC bonus. And if not which one I should pick.

Yeah. That's a trickier issue. I can't even tell what the intent was, since FotF has some features which have explicit stacking with Monk abilities.

IMHO this is one more thing 5e got right -- very unambiguous AC stacking / not stacking rules.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah. That's a trickier issue. I can't even tell what the intent was, since FotF has some features which have explicit stacking with Monk abilities.

I get the feeling that they were intended to stack, since Monk is one of the best entries, but that they didn't realize that the RAW on the subject was that they apparently wouldn't stack.

[hex0]

Fist of the forest is good. If you don't care about losing spells, why not do wildshape ranger instead of druid to begin with? Maybe mystic ranger if you can swing it. Sacred Fist would be good after fotf.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you want to be the most awesome barbarian like druid, I suggest you take more druid levels. You want to get as high of Bite of the X spell as possible and as high of shapeshift strength bonus as possible.

Shapeshift druid doesn't play well with PRC's because so few boost it's primary mechanic (shapeshifting). Warshaper is about the only one I can think of.

[WarKitty]

Fist of the forest is good. If you don't care about losing spells, why not do wildshape ranger instead of druid to begin with? Maybe mystic ranger if you can swing it. Sacred Fist would be good after fotf.

Because I'm specifically using shapeshift druid, not regular druid, so I don't have to wait 6 levels for my concept to come online.

[Venger]

The real question here is whether Monk's AC bonus would stack with FotF's AC bonus. And if not which one I should pick.

of course it would. check out person man's x stat to y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) handbook.

if you don't care about spells and momf is banned, look at nature's warrior, it's pretty neat too. abolisher might also be up your alley, as would primeval. you already touched on fist of the forest, which is a fine option. if you can afford to be a dwarf, 2 lvls of deepwarden gives con to AC, which will help your generally poor ac

[Troacctid]

of course it would. check out person man's x stat to y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) handbook.

if you don't care about spells and momf is banned, look at nature's warrior, it's pretty neat too. abolisher might also be up your alley, as would primeval. you already touched on fist of the forest, which is a fine option. if you can afford to be a dwarf, 2 lvls of deepwarden gives con to AC, which will help your generally poor ac

Nature's Warrior and Primeval aren't really compatible with shapeshift, and Abolisher seems worse than just taking more Druid, since it doesn't stack for shapeshifting. Not seeing the appeal of Deepwarden--it seems just worse than Monk or Ninja, since it takes two levels instead of one.

[WarKitty]

Yeah it's more looking like other than warshaper and a dip in ninja, I really want to just go straight druid. Maybe fist of the Forest for extra bonus to a/c. Unless there's some good metamagic reducing option on the table so I can quicken spells for cheap.

[Telonius]

Well, there's a Totemist dip, plus Extra Essentia and Midnight Metamagic; but that's basically a 1/day thing unless you can cheese out some additional essentia somewhere. Azure Wild Shape could help too (assuming the DM rules that it would apply to the shapeshift variant).