Balanced minions?

[Coidzor]

Considering the capabilities of various classes compared to previous editions and how Beastmaster is widely panned due to the limitations on it out of fear of breaking the action economy and also being too fragile to use often enough....

What level of durability and ability to influence an encounter would be ideal, especially given the influence of bounded accuracy?

[MaxWilson]

Considering the capabilities of various classes compared to previous editions and how Beastmaster is widely panned due to the limitations on it out of fear of breaking the action economy and also being too fragile to use often enough....

What level of durability and ability to influence an encounter would be ideal, especially given the influence of bounded accuracy?

I'm not sure I understand the question. Minions are fantastic in 5E. When you have a "combat encounter" with a group of six hobgoblins, the very first thing you should do is not to roll initiative. The first thing you should do is to shout in Goblin, "Whatever your boss is paying you I'll double it!"

Their to-hit is kind of rubbish, but high AC, longbows and Martial Advantage are a terrific combination. You won't regret hiring them. Unless they backstab you, and you should definitely persuade them that doing so would be fatal.

[ZenBear]

Considering the capabilities of various classes compared to previous editions and how Beastmaster is widely panned due to the limitations on it out of fear of breaking the action economy and also being too fragile to use often enough....

What level of durability and ability to influence an encounter would be ideal, especially given the influence of bounded accuracy?

I can't answer your question, but I do wish that Beastmasters had a more robust leveling system for their companions. Only a few beasts are competitive, and you need to keep changing beasts as you level up. So no optimized BM will ever have a wolf companion that he raised from a pup to fight at his side (a very commonly desired concept).

[Coidzor]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Minions are fantastic in 5E. When you have a "combat encounter" with a group of six hobgoblins, the very first thing you should do is not to roll initiative. The first thing you should do is to shout in Goblin, "Whatever your boss is paying you I'll double it!"

Their to-hit is kind of rubbish, but high AC, longbows and Martial Advantage are a terrific combination. You won't regret hiring them. Unless they backstab you, and you should definitely persuade them that doing so would be fatal.

And if you can reliably turn enemies into minions then that's well and good, because you have a replenishing stream of disposable minions. At least my current understanding is that while they're not going to be super easy to hit due to bounded accuracy, they're still going to essentially become 1-hit-KOs in a couple of levels.

I was speaking more to semi-permanent ones which either would be robust enough that you didn't lose them to perma-death that often or could actually get knocked out in a fight and not die.

[MaxWilson]

And if you can reliably turn enemies into minions then that's well and good, because you have a replenishing stream of disposable minions. At least my current understanding is that while they're not going to be super easy to hit due to bounded accuracy, they're still going to essentially become 1-hit-KOs in a couple of levels.

It's a playstyle thing I guess. Sure, they're 1-hit-KOs with their base stats, but 1.) you can Inspiring Leader them with an extra 16 temp HP (at my party's current level; up to 25 HP at 20th level); 2.) with longbows, they don't have to be on the front lines to be effective. If you have some guys on the front lines, not too many enemies will ignore them to focus instead on the armored hobgoblins shooting arrows from the back lines from behind partial cover until they've dealt with the raging Barbearian with the big axe on the front lines, or whatever.

And even if they are KO'ed, you can just Healing Word them right back up again, or Aura of Vitality. Kills can happen but, at least in my experience with skeletal archers, massive damage at long range just isn't all that common, and most MM monsters don't really have ranged attacks at all. I don't think you'd have high permanent attrition among your hobgoblins unless someone broke into your backline with some heavy hitters, at least in the kinds of fights I see. As I say, it may be a playstyle thing.

As an FYI, I just rolled 10 Frost Giant boulder hits against some simulated hobgoblin minions. 31, 18, 24, 32, 14, 18, 21, 35, 27, 22. That means zero hobgoblins would have been insta-killed by damage (requires 11 (base HP) + 16 (temp HP) + 11 (base HP for massive damage) = 38 damage). In fact, 6 of the 10 hobgoblins would still be standing.

[Slipperychicken]

As an FYI, I just rolled 10 Frost Giant boulder hits against some simulated hobgoblin minions. 31, 18, 24, 32, 14, 18, 21, 35, 27, 22. That means zero hobgoblins would have been insta-killed by damage (requires 11 (base HP) + 16 (temp HP) + 11 (base HP for massive damage) = 38 damage). In fact, 6 of the 10 hobgoblins would still be standing.

For a somewhat more statistical approach:


An inspired Hobgoblin has AC 18, and 16 temp hp plus 11 hp. That's 27 hit points to KO, and 38 for a one-shot kill.

A frost giant's greataxe has +9 to hit. Versus the hobgoblin's 18 AC, it has a 55% chance for a normal hit, and a 5% chance to critical.

The frost giant's greataxe deals 3d12+6 damage on a non-critical hit. This KOs a hobgoblin 43.75% of the time, and auto-kills 2.03% of the time. A critical hit's damage (6d12+6) KOs 98.71% of the time, and autokills 80.79% of the time.

So now we'll weight the chances for KO and kills by chances to hit and critcally hit. Chance to OHKO a given hit are (0.55*0.4375)+(0.05*0.9871)= 29%. Chance to one-hit kill on a given hit are (0.55*0.0203)+(0.05*0.8079)= 5.16%.
An inspired Hobgoblin has AC 18, and 16 temp hp plus 11 hp. That's 27 hit points to KO, and 38 for a one-shot kill.

A frost giant's boulder has +9 to hit. Versus the hobgoblin's 18 AC, it has a 55% chance for a normal hit, and a 5% chance to critical.

The frost giant's boulder deals 4d10+6 damage on a non-critical hit. This KOs a hobgoblin 59.95% of the time, and auto-kills 4.95% of the time. A critical hit's damage (8d10+6) KOs 99.87% of the time, and autokills 93.73% of the time.

So now we'll weight the chances for KO and kills by chances to hit and critcally hit. Chance to OHKO a given hit are (0.55*0.5995)+(0.05*0.9987)= 37.97%. Chance to one-hit kill on a given hit are (0.55*0.0495)+(0.05*0.9373)= 7.41%.

When a frost giant uses his greataxe to attack a hobgoblin, he has a 29% chance to one-hit KO the hobgoblin, and a 5.16% chance to one-hit kill the hobgoblin. That is a 34.16% chance to be downed by a greataxe attack at full health.

When a frost giant uses his boulder to attack a hobgoblin, he has a 37.97% chance to one-hit KO the hobgoblin, and a 7.41% chance to one-hit kill the hobgoblin. That is a 45.38% total chance to be downed by a boulder attack at full health.

[Coidzor]

Did I misunderstand how death and dying works in this edition?

I would have sworn that non-named, non-special NPCs die when they hit 0 HP unless they have some ability like Zombies/Half-Orcs which allows them to make a save to reset their HP at some non-0 number or automatically do so once, unless whatever is attacking them explicitly wants to subdue rather than kill.

[Slipperychicken]

I would have sworn that non-named, non-special NPCs die when they hit 0 HP unless they have some ability like Zombies/Half-Orcs which allows them to make a save to reset their HP at some non-0 number or automatically do so once, unless whatever is attacking them explicitly wants to subdue rather than kill.

Look at PHB 198. The "Monsters and Death" section says it's the DM's choice. A monster can simply die when it hits 0 hp, or it can follow the same rules as PCs do.

[Fizban]

I think the question here is a little vague: do you want to buff the Beastmaster, or create some other sort of minonmancer? Either way you can always go for the standard of balance as in equivalent spells. I'm a little odded out by why the Beastmaster needs a standard action to get the animal to attack myself, when independent attack spells usually use a bonus action or concentration maintenance. I could see a mundane leader requiring concentration to lead troops, enough to prevent concentrating on spells, and the troops simply failing to act without being directed. But if you want free hirelings that require no action input then I'd recommend not using 5e, it's very clear that's not supposed to fly now.

[MaxWilson]

Look at PHB 198. The "Monsters and Death" section says it's the DM's choice. A monster can simply die when it hits 0 hp, or it can follow the same rules as PCs do.

In my campaign, monsters habitually make death saves. The PCs generally don't bother to deliberately finish monsters off, they just leave them for dead. That's nice because it sets a precedent that monsters leave PCs for dead too, giving another possible outcome to a TPK other than "you are captured"--it could just mean everyone has to make death saves, and those who make it wake up a few hours later. Unless the monster was hungry and ate them, of course, which sometimes happens too.

[Demonic Spoon]

Look at PHB 198. The "Monsters and Death" section says it's the DM's choice. A monster can simply die when it hits 0 hp, or it can follow the same rules as PCs do.

Yes, and this is there as an abstraction so that if the party fireballs 10 kobolds, the DM doesn't need to roll 10 death saves every round until the end of combat.

[DireSickFish]

To build a minion into a PC without breaking things to much and still having the minion be useful you're going to need to design a class lvl1-20 with this in mind.

Having extra actions is just so powerful, and to have the right flavor I think your minion needs to be able to act independently from you. Even if he is eating up other resources of some kind the cool thing about being a minion master or having minions is the ability to do two things at once.

Taking on minions in most games should be possible, hiring mercs, undead skellybros, various summons, a golem bound to you. If your DM is doing it right these should all come with the big risk of being taken away. They are temporary, not a main feature. Muhc like an item to be used. This is opposite of what you'd want as a minion master, it should be built in and always an option. Therefore any minion they have needs to be immortal. So magic should be involved in a way to bring back the minion in some way after a long/short rest or a number of times each long rest.

The minion should eat up some kind of recourse of the PC to make up for the action economy it gets. Concentration comes to mind, as you have to keep whatever minion you have in the world. A shared HP pool also comes to mind very thematic but could potentially screw you over to hard with AoE attacks. If the base class is weak or very limited on there own so they need the minion to do the heavy lifting of the class.

I don't have a clear picture about what exactly I'd give the class for features, but these are the things I'd keep in mind.

[MaxWilson]

Yes, and this is there as an abstraction so that if the party fireballs 10 kobolds, the DM doesn't need to roll 10 death saves every round until the end of combat.

What I've done is just get rid of the rule that says rolling a natural 20 pops you back up immediately to 1 HP. I only do that if someone rolls a 20 on their Medicine check to stabilize you. Without the possibility of monsters popping back up, death saves can be safely ignored until combat is over, and then I just check and see who is still alive after five rolls.