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NullAshton
2007-05-07, 01:50 PM
I have a paradox. Say someone charges you with a reach weapon. Since it's a charge, they must stop at 10 feet and attack. Next say the person that's being charged has a readied action to move in 5 feet when someone goes within 10 feet of them...

The person who charges gets an AoO. But... what the heck happens after that? Suddenly, the person who charged no longer has a valid target, since his target is in the 5 foot 'safe zone'. But a charge has to have an attack at the end, otherwise it's not a charge...

My question is, what the heck happens? Since it's not a charge, the person would theoretically never have done the charge in the first place, but that means the readied action wouldn't have gone off. Which means that the person CAN do a charge, but then the readied action goes off... it's all really confusing, and not too sure how this would be resolved.

kkortekaas
2007-05-07, 01:51 PM
Your blowing my mind man.

bosssmiley
2007-05-07, 01:55 PM
There is no paradox. Apply the charge bonus (+2 TH IIRC) to the AOO. If the charge attack fails to hit then (and only then) does the character with the readied action to move into 5ft range dodge past the spearpoint.

Common sense: apply directly to the source of paradox.

Beleriphon
2007-05-07, 01:56 PM
Guy charges, gets his AoO, and he's at -2 to defense until his next turn. Mr Readied Action gets his readied action.

If I were feeling magnanimous as a DM I'd let the charge get his normal charge attack as well.

Matthew
2007-05-07, 01:57 PM
Same thing as if the action was prepared to 'move away', an Attack of opportunity and an interrupted Charge Action.

[Edit]: (Minute by Minute Ninjaing)

Yechezkiel
2007-05-07, 01:57 PM
A charge stops where it needs to to complete the attack imo. Move up the character who had the readied action and have the charger get his charge attack (no AoO though, imo again).

NullAshton
2007-05-07, 01:59 PM
So what happens if you ready a FREE action, namely 5 foot step? No AoO. Thus.... what happens?

Same thing happens if you move back. Stay at 60 feet away if they have a melee weapon, maximum charging distance. They charge, you step 5 feet away when they're 5 feet in to you and... they can't attack. Or get an AoO. Or basically anything.

Jasdoif
2007-05-07, 02:02 PM
So what happens if you ready a FREE action, namely 5 foot step?A 5-foot step is not a free action. That's why it's listed under miscellaneous actions instead of free actions in the combat section.

You can't ready a miscellaneous action.

Piccamo
2007-05-07, 02:05 PM
So what happens if you ready a FREE action, namely 5 foot step? No AoO. Thus.... what happens?

Same thing happens if you move back. Stay at 60 feet away if they have a melee weapon, maximum charging distance. They charge, you step 5 feet away when they're 5 feet in to you and... they can't attack. Or get an AoO. Or basically anything.

You cannot ready free actions. All readied actions are standard actions, no matter what you are doing with it.

NullAshton
2007-05-07, 02:10 PM
You cannot ready free actions. All readied actions are standard actions, no matter what you are doing with it.

Use a 5 foot step as a standard action then. So you don't provoke an AoO.

Jasdoif
2007-05-07, 02:11 PM
You cannot ready free actions. All readied actions are standard actions, no matter what you are doing with it.No, you can ready free actions, although readying itself takes a standard action on your turn.
You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action.Of course, a 5-foot step still isn't a free action :smalltongue:

NEO|Phyte
2007-05-07, 02:16 PM
So ready some random action, and take the 5' step you are allowed to if you haven't already moved.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

Piccamo
2007-05-07, 02:42 PM
No, you can ready free actions, although readying itself takes a standard action on your turn.Of course, a 5-foot step still isn't a free action :smalltongue:

Thats pretty much what I mean, but you worded it better than me :smalltongue:

Sundog
2007-05-07, 03:01 PM
Um, guys, where's the attack of opportunity coming from? The charged person only did a five foot step. That never provokes an AOO.

Now, according to the PHB, a readied action can interrupt another person's action, even in the middle of that action, as soon as the readied action's conditions apply. So, the instant the charger reaches ten feet away, the charged person takes his readied action and moves forward five feet. The charging person no longer has a valid target, and therefore does not attack.

It's still a charge, however, because the charge WAS valid when it was announced.

Yet another good reason not to charge someone with a readied action.

Jasdoif
2007-05-07, 03:07 PM
So ready some random action, and take the 5' step you are allowed to if you haven't already moved.Oh, I forgot, you can take a five-foot step as part of a readied action. So much for hoping for a simple resolution....

OK, time for a slightly more involved resolution then.


Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.If a readied action precedes the action that triggers it....if you ready it for the person coming within 10 feet, your move will happen before their action: the charge. If your new position is still valid for their charge, they charge as normal.

It's the most sensical interpretation of the charger reacting to a five-foot step that I can think of. And sure beats the "readied action occurs before the triggering condition, so you make the five-foot step towards them when they're 15 feet away and end up right at their 10-foot reach for the charge" thought I was going to post.

Sundog
2007-05-07, 05:56 PM
Oh, I forgot, you can take a five-foot step as part of a readied action. So much for hoping for a simple resolution....

OK, time for a slightly more involved resolution then.

If a readied action precedes the action that triggers it....if you ready it for the person coming within 10 feet, your move will happen before their action: the charge. If your new position is still valid for their charge, they charge as normal.

It's the most sensical interpretation of the charger reacting to a five-foot step that I can think of. And sure beats the "readied action occurs before the triggering condition, so you make the five-foot step towards them when they're 15 feet away and end up right at their 10-foot reach for the charge" thought I was going to post.

Uh-uh. If the triggering event was the charge, you'd be right. But the triggering event is the charger reaching ten feet. At that point, the charging character's action stops and the readied action happens. Once the readied action is concluded the charging character completes his action - except that the charging character now has no valid target to attack.

It doesn't make "real world" sense, bt it's quite clear in the RAW (PHB p160).

Ikkitosen
2007-05-07, 06:48 PM
Um, guys, where's the attack of opportunity coming from? The charged person only did a five foot step. That never provokes an AOO.

Now, according to the PHB, a readied action can interrupt another person's action, even in the middle of that action, as soon as the readied action's conditions apply. So, the instant the charger reaches ten feet away, the charged person takes his readied action and moves forward five feet. The charging person no longer has a valid target, and therefore does not attack.

It's still a charge, however, because the charge WAS valid when it was announced.

Yet another good reason not to charge someone with a readied action.

This is how I see it too. Toro!

Jasdoif
2007-05-07, 06:53 PM
It doesn't make "real world" sense, bt it's quite clear in the RAW (PHB p160).I did say it was a "sensical" interpretation, that pretty much violates RAW in itself :smalltongue:

I'm still fairly certain that the readied action would happen just before the 10-foot triggering condition, so you'd that that 5-foot step when you were 15 feet away...but then, you aren't even threatened from 15 feet away, so it makes more sense to just take a move action and cover a lot more ground away from the charger. And doing that, adjusting the charge like I recommended for the smaller five-step doesn't make as much sense.


But I'm not certain of this, so how you would allow the charge in this "extra-dimensional five-foot step towards the charger" situation be resolved? Simply a double move? Allow the player to make a bull rush as part of the charge instead? Or a move and an overrun? Maybe make an unarmed or gauntlet attack instead of using the reach weapon?

Corolinth
2007-05-08, 10:26 AM
The readied action resolves first. That's what readied actions are for. That's why you ready actions in the first place. That's the difference between readying an action, and holding an action. He steps in, does not provoke an attack of opportunity (because 5-foot steps do not provoke attacks of opportunity), and then makes his melee attack.

Then the person who charged takes his attack with the reach weapon, only he can't now that his target is adjacent to him. This means he can't charge. Congratulations, you've just broken D&D. Here we have a prime example of what I'm babbling on about with D&D being written to assume the DM is a person and not a computer. He takes the -2 penalty to his AC, because he's recklessly charging. He makes the double-move towards his target. He does not get to make his attack, because his target was smart enough to get up inside of his reach. There's no need to contest this to see who strikes first. The person with the readied action has already won the initiative. That was the tactic. Wait for the opportune moment, step inside of reach, commence with beatdown. It's a perfectly viable tactic for anybody with an intelligence higher than that of a rock.

daggaz
2007-05-08, 10:53 AM
Lol. When the rules get stupid, throw them out. Then apply liberal uses of common sense to the bleeding wound.

You want to interrupt a guys charge with a readied action, by stepping into the charge??! Fine. Go for it. He gets to roll his charge attack as normal. His charge was valid when he started it, for me, thats enough to complete it, regardless of the eventual distance because of your actions. If he hits, you take extra damage because you, foolishly, stepped into the charge. (Think about it for a second...) If he misses, hey presto! You deftly dodge the incoming spear/halberd/longsword whatever, and end up well within striking range for your next turn.

Roderick_BR
2007-05-08, 11:03 AM
You are walking TOWARDS a guy charging? The charger attacks. If he misses, the readied one moves forward. You can't use an readied action against an action that is STILL happening. The charger started way back. If the readied action was to get out of the way, then it would work.

Matthew
2007-05-08, 11:09 AM
Hmmn, no Readied Actions can interrupt.


Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

Initiative Consequences of Readying
Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

Distracting Spellcasters
You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell." If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result).

Readying to Counterspell
You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger "if she starts casting a spell"). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster’s spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.

A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn’t always work.

Readying a Weapon against a Charge
You can ready certain piercing weapons, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.



Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.

You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.

You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.

If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

Attacking on a Charge
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent.

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

Lances and Charge Attacks
A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.

Weapons Readied against a Charge
Spears, tridents, and certain other piercing weapons deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.

Looks to me like it works, and as Sun Dog points out, there is no need for an Attack of Opportunity, as a 5' Step can be part of an Attack Action. You can think of it as 'Counter Charging', I suppose, since the option otherwise does not exist.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-08, 11:13 AM
And it isn't stupid to step into a charge. It is just about the smartest thing you can do.

The guy can't attack if you are within 5 feet of him and it is fairly difficult to move the lance around as you charge a person on horseback.

Dragonmuncher
2007-05-08, 11:16 AM
I really don't see what's so nonsensical about this.

A hulking hairy fighter guy comes screaming at you with a glaive raised high over his shoulder. "RAAAAAAAAGH," he says. You coolly watch him charge towards you with a cocky tilt to your head. Suddenly, just as he is about to bring his weapon down to split your head, you dart inside of his reach and cut open his belly with your dagger.

See? Easy.

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-08, 11:58 AM
yeah, easy to SAY. :smallbiggrin:

There's this assumption across the thread that the charger is dumb and brutish, while the chargee is smart and dextrous. In which case yes, the tactic should work. The problem is, the way the rules model it there's no way for a (reach-weapon-wielding) charger to hit a prepared foe, ever.

For instance, a fighter level 20 mounted on a warhorse, with a lance, charging at a level 1 commoner peasant with 5 dexterity (due to disease) and no armor. Under normal circumstances, the peasant will be hit. But somehow, if he sees the fighter coming, he can dodge the tip of the lance at the last instant, step inside the fighter's reach, and try to pop him one with his puny fist?

Jasdoif
2007-05-08, 12:29 PM
"The action occurs just before the action that triggers it." That's what the
rules say about a readied action. So if your readied action is to do something when someone comes within 10 feet of you, your action will take place before they come within 10 feet of you: when they're 15 feet away. So you step towards them...and save them the trouble of moving that extra square to attack you.


I really don't see what's so nonsensical about this.

A hulking hairy fighter guy comes screaming at you with a glaive raised high over his shoulder. "RAAAAAAAAGH," he says. You coolly watch him charge towards you with a cocky tilt to your head. Suddenly, just as he is about to bring his weapon down to split your head, you dart inside of his reach and cut open his belly with your dagger.

See? Easy.What's nonsensical is that we're talking about a five-foot step.

A five-foot step involves slowly moving to an adjacent square throughout your turn, in a way that doesn't distract from what you're doing. That's why you can take a five-foot step when you're full-attacking, and why doing so doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

And you're suggesting that the resulting 10-inch-per-second movement can be considered "darting inside of his reach"?

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-08, 12:34 PM
This is why I prefer 2nd edition's "Simultaneous Initiative" system. Overall, I agree with daggaz' post. Resolve the Charger's attack. If he hits, Readier fails. If he misses, Readier gets to move inside reach.

Who says you have to "raise the weapon over the head" when charging? If it's a long-handled hammer(Reach version of a Maul?) for example, you'd be holding it somewhere around hip level, as you build up the momentum for the swing. If it's a piercing weapon, it's usually pointed straight forwards, and not that hard to shift it a little to the left or right(remember, a small movement at the pivot{hands} translates to a large one at the point) if your opponent tries to avoid it.

Cobra
2007-05-08, 12:38 PM
So if your readied action is to do something when someone comes within 10 feet of you, your action will take place before they come within 10 feet of you: when they're 15 feet away. So you step towards them...and save them the trouble of moving that extra square to attack you.

Try again. Look at how ready actions interrupt spell casting. By your logic, the readied person would attack before the spell was started, and thus there would be no concentration check.

It's not a paradox really. It just means that you can't expect to recklessly rush at somebody with a reach weapon who is prepared for you. You can still double move up to them.

Diggorian
2007-05-08, 12:43 PM
I was checking the official FAQ for a resolution, but Jasdoif's reading is what I'd likely adjudicate myself.

"ARRRGH ... huh? OK." *splortch*


Try again. Look at how ready actions interrupt spell casting. By your logic, the readied person would attack before the spell was started, and thus there would be no concentration check.


That's how it works though. "I ready to slash him if he's gonna cast."The mage slips out some fur and a small glass rod, then winces with the blow. The second syllable of the verbal component is replaced with "OW!" if he fails the concentration check.

Jasdoif
2007-05-08, 12:54 PM
Try again. Look at how ready actions interrupt spell casting. By your logic, the readied person would attack before the spell was started, and thus there would be no concentration check.And by that logic, the charge attack would be completed before the readied action to step towards the charger takes place.

Special initiative actions are truly the quantum mechanics of the D20 system.


But come to think of it, I like the sound of "counter-attack after the charge". Thank you for bringing it up.

SpatulaOfDoom
2007-05-08, 01:26 PM
I'm going to chime in with.
Use rule 0: Common sense. Stepping into a charge will NOT allow you to avoid the charge.

A different tactic if you had the same reach as the charger is to make your attack THEN 5 foot adjust to the side. Unless the charger can make turns while charging that will ruin the attempt.

brian c
2007-05-08, 03:40 PM
Hm... I think this would be a good situation to call for an opposed Dexterity check, or even an opposed Initiative check, to determine who goes first. Let whoever is quicker have their action: if the person being charged is quicker, then they dart inside, but if the charger is quicker then they get their attack off first and their opponent loses that 5-foot step.

Annarrkkii
2007-05-08, 09:09 PM
The same debate arises when you combine Evasive Reflexes, Reach, Hold the Line, and Combat Reflexes, though in that one, there's also the issue of whether his moving through your reach is the same action as the charge that provokes your AoO.

Basically, the situation is such that you ready an action to attack the guy who charges, setting your longspear for a charge. He charges. You take your readied attack. Then you take your AoO as he moves through your threatened square. Then you take your AoO for Hold the Line to take a 5 ft. step back. Ideally.

Anyone care to adjudicate just how that works out?

Desaril
2007-05-08, 09:22 PM
I agree with Corolinth. The benefit of the readied action is that you get to interrupt the opponent's actions. Just because it's effective, doesn't mean it's a bad rule, daggaz.

Corolinth
2007-05-08, 10:09 PM
Yes. There is no, "If the charger hits, the readied action fails." The readied action is to take a 5-foot step and attack when someone gets within ten feet of you. The readied action was announced before the charge. He is not waiting to see what happens. He is prepared to take a specific action when the preset conditions arise. He goes first. Period. This is not a held action, it's a readied action.

Someone is charging you with a poleaxe. He's taking a wide sweep. You step up as soon as he's within his reach. Now the worst that's happening is you get whacked on the arm with the shaft of the weapon.

This is not rocket science. D&D can be played by 10 year-olds. In fact, the original D&D rules, which were far more complicated than 3rd edition and its revisions, says, "Ages 10 and up," right on the box. We do not have to invoke the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle.

On 20, a fighter has readied an action to 5-foot step up within the reach of a charging opponent as soon as the opponent is within ten feet. On 15, a hobgoblin with a longspear charges. The fighter does not step up when the hobgoblin is fifteen feet away, thereby negating his readied action and allowing the hobgoblin to take his attack five feet early, because the fighter declared that he will step up when the hobgoblin is ten feet away. The hobgoblin does not get within ten feet and take his attack first, because the fighter readied his action on 20. That's the advantage of high initiative rolls. Fighter steps up, takes his attack, and now the hobgoblin's spear is too cumbersome to attack his target at such close range. They do not make instantaneous initiative rolls within the number 15 on the initiative order to determine who goes first, because the fighter already won the initiative. That's why he was able to ready an action on 20 in the first place. Furthermore, the hobgoblin committed himself to the attack against a target that's now inside of his reach. He can't attack anybody else this round, either. The hobgoblin got boned. Them's the breaks. That's what happens when you charge someone with a readied action. This is a lot like setting a spear against a charge, we're just using a different weapon, and we're not dealing double damage.

We are talking about readied actions, not held actions. A held action is you sitting around picking your nose and waiting to see what happens. A held action is indecisiveness. A readied action is just that - you're ready to go. The drawback to a readied action is that if nobody charges the fighter, he doesn't act. If he held his action, he could act on 1 after everybody else has acted. However, on a held action, he gets stabbed. On a readied action, he's got a surprise for the first chucklehead that charges him. That's why you want to ready an action instead of just wait, if you know what you want to do. If a readied action did not have that advantage, it would be pointless to ready an action, because it would just be a held action where you lose your turn if nobody charges you.

Corolinth
2007-05-08, 10:14 PM
I'm going to chime in with.
Use rule 0: Common sense. Stepping into a charge will NOT allow you to avoid the charge.1) A five-foot step towards the charger can be along a diagonal.

2) This is not someone charging you with a battleaxe. This is someone charging you with a ten-foot pole that has a blade on the end. If you step forward while I'm in mid-swing, what am I going to hit you with? The business end of my weapon is five feet behind you. I'm screaming and frothing at the mouth. It's not like I can suddenly decide to choke up on my grip.

Diggorian
2007-05-08, 10:17 PM
Basically, the situation is such that you ready an action to attack the guy who charges, setting your longspear for a charge. He charges. You take your readied attack. Then you take your AoO as he moves through your threatened square. Then you take your AoO for Hold the Line to take a 5 ft. step back. Ideally.

Anyone care to adjudicate just how that works out?

Seems like you take the readied when he's within 10ft, getting the double damage if you hit. Then the AoO from Hold the Line right after that. If the charger is still up you can get him again for closing 10-5ft.

Justin_Bacon
2007-05-08, 10:46 PM
I have a paradox. Say someone charges you with a reach weapon. Since it's a charge, they must stop at 10 feet and attack. Next say the person that's being charged has a readied action to move in 5 feet when someone goes within 10 feet of them...

The person who charges gets an AoO.

No he doesn't. The guy only took a 5' step. That doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.


But... what the heck happens after that? Suddenly, the person who charged no longer has a valid target, since his target is in the 5 foot 'safe zone'. But a charge has to have an attack at the end, otherwise it's not a charge...

What the rule actually says (according to the SRD): "After moving, you may make a single melee attack."

Note the word "may". There is no requirement that the attack be made. Thus: The charger moves within 10 feet, the readied action is resolved, and then the charger may make an attack... but he can't make an attack, so he doesn't.

Intriguingly, the rules do not say that you have to make the attack against the character you originally charged.

On a more general note: I have a house rule I refer to as the Rule of Indeterminate Action: As you are resolving your action you are considered to be doing all possible actions

Or, in a simpler form: If you want to change what you're trying to do in the middle of your turn, you can do it as long as the action can still be resolved legally in the context of what you've already done.

A similar rule can be found in the RAW as part of a full attack: After you make a single attack you can decide whether this was a single attack made as a standard action or just the first attack in a ful attack sequence. The Rule of Indeterminate Action just generalizes it.

This rule is basically common sense, but it allows you to resolve not only the consequences of readied actions, but also other changes in the battlefield or the character's knowledge of the battlefield. A few examples:

(1) The player announces that his character is moving 60 feet down a hall. After 15 feet the character triggers a pit trap and falls down a pit. The character is not assumed to continue running into the far side of the pit like a computer character on auto-run. The character has chewed up a move action by moving 15 feet -- but he can now choose to take a different standard action.

(2) A hallway has been covered in magical darkness the fighter announces that he's using a move action to move 30' down the hallway and through the darknes. He emerges from the other side of the darkness and sees a wall of fire 10 feet away. He doesn't have to move into the wall of fire -- he can announce that he's ending his move as her emerges from the darkness.

(3) A player announces that his character is moving down the hallway and attacking a goblin. As the character moves down the hallway, however, he crosses a T-intersection and sees a beautiful maiden being dragged away by an ogre. He can choose to change direction, complete his move action, and attack the ogre instead.

As an example of what you couldn't do: You could't announce that you were running down a hallway and then change direction (because you can't change direction while running). But you COULD run down a hallway and skid to a stop before you had originally intended to.

brian c
2007-05-08, 11:03 PM
Okay, there's a great example to apply to this, but I can't remember what book it's in. I thought it was in the DMG but I can't find it; if anyone knows please tell me. Here's a paraphrase though:

A sorcerer is part of a party that is attacked by a beholder. He knows that the beholder's main eye is anti-magic, so can't cast a spell, but he knows that the beholder must close it's main eye to use a ray from an eye stalk. The sorcerer readies an action to cast a spell once he sees the beholder's main eye close. On its turn, the beholder closes its main eye in order to use a ray: the beholder and the sorcerer roll opposed checks to see whose action resolves first. The beholder's is a Dex check, since his action is based on how quickly he can close his main eye then use his stalk. The sorcerer's check is Wis based, because the important thing for him is when he sees the eye close (Spot being a Wis-based skill).

So that's kinda equivalent to this situation: a readied action doesn't always necessarily interrupt something else, you can be asked to make another check at that point. Like I said before, Dex check would be best or possible with Initiative modifiers because it's the same sort of idea, DM's discretion.

Diggorian
2007-05-08, 11:36 PM
Brian,


The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action.

House rule it how ya want, but that's how it goes down.

This is why I see the 5ft step in and attack as ordinarily ineffective. The charger is at 5ft and 1/16 of an inch after the readied action is resolved; unless you've got a reach weapon, they're not attackable yet. The charger will finish his action where he is and attack the defender.

brian c
2007-05-09, 01:06 AM
Brian,



House rule it how ya want, but that's how it goes down.

This is why I see the 5ft step in and attack as ordinarily ineffective. The charger is at 5ft and 1/16 of an inch after the readied action is resolved; unless you've got a reach weapon, they're not attackable yet. The charger will finish his action where he is and attack the defender.

I wasn't houseruling, I was paraphrasing WotC material that I can't place at the moment.

bighead
2007-05-09, 01:37 AM
I really don't see what's so nonsensical about this.

A hulking hairy fighter guy comes screaming at you with a glaive raised high over his shoulder. "RAAAAAAAAGH," he says. You coolly watch him charge towards you with a cocky tilt to your head. Suddenly, just as he is about to bring his weapon down to split your head, you dart inside of his reach and cut open his belly with your dagger.

See? Easy.

Its really not that easy. It is cool if a player can pull that off but you have to take a look at the whole picture of combat. There are so many things happening, are you really going to ready an action vs a specific charge? Additionally, how many baddies use only reach weapons? This tactic is ONLY, and I want to stress the word "ONLY" useful against a charging reach weapon wielding baddie. And generally, reach weapon fighters are defensive and do not charge. At least that is how I would play a reach weapon wielding fighter with an intel higher than 2.

One more thing, most reach weapon fighters would be wearing spiked armor or have a spiked guantlet. So you'll negate the reach weapon attack, but the fighter can still smash you with their spiked armor on a charge.

Rad
2007-05-09, 02:44 AM
Example one: (hopefully easier)
a sorcerer casts a spell and guy next to the sorcerer has a readied action (attack) if the sorcerer casts.

Sorcerer begins casting
before the casting is completed, the attack occurs. Note that to disrupt a spell you need the attack to be made during casting time, not before. So the readied action happens after the casting action started but before it is completed.
sorcerer completes the casting. On the end of the casting action she needs to make a concentration check.

The point is that the readied action does not occur before the trigger event starts, only before it is completed. Otherwise, in any example like this one the attack would happen before the casting, not during it, thus not requiring any check.

Now the charge:

charger begins moving
just before the charger enters the square at 10' (from which she would attack) the charge action is "frozen" and the chargee moves one square. No AoO since 5' steps do not provoke any.
the charge action resumes; the charger is now in a place where he can reach his target, so she cannot move that last square. Having completed the movement she may now attack, and has a legal target.


Note that there are a whack of readied actions that can disrupt the charge (such as moving away). What a lot of people are mentioning here (stepping inside reach) is also doable.

Rogue readies an action when the charging guy is moving within 10' to take a move action.

When the charger is about to move in range (but still at 15') the readied action is triggered; if the rogue moves two squares he stepped inside the reach and voids the charge.
This requires a tumble check not to trigger an AoO from the charging guy.
Before the charger's next turn the Rogue will have hers. Stabbing time.

which is the action exactly as depicted from earlier posts and seems much more balanced to me. And no houseruling.

Hope this helps :smallsmile:

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-09, 06:22 AM
This is not someone charging you with a battleaxe. This is someone charging you with a ten-foot pole that has a blade on the end. If you step forward while I'm in mid-swing, what am I going to hit you with? The business end of my weapon is five feet behind you. I'm screaming and frothing at the mouth. It's not like I can suddenly decide to choke up on my grip.Again, you're making assumptions about the situation that are unwarranted. Not all charges are brutish, foaming-at-the-mouth berserker affairs.

More to the point, not all reach weapons require enormous over-the-head swings. In fact on a charge, many of them would probably be used like a lance, to stab the opponent. Very little movement of the business end at all. The charger doesn't aim at a point in space and then shut his eyes. He'd have a good chance of being able to adjust the tip of his lance to still hit you if you tried to move closer.

Now, please note that I'm not arguing about the RULES, here. I think it's pretty clear that by RAW, this works. The chargee gets to completely negate the charge with a readied action. In fact, readied actions can completely shut down a reach weapon offense.

What I am arguing against is the notion that such a situation is somehow realistic, and that common sense dictates it would work that way. Historically, spear charges are quite an effective tactic, even if your opponent is "ready." In fact, the best thing he can do is to have long pointy weapon himself! The idea that any warrior, if he is prepared, can automatically dodge the lance of any other warrior, no matter their relative skill, is NOT common sense.

In short: does it work by the rules? Yes. Does that mean it would work "in a real fight?" Not necessarily.

Diggorian
2007-05-09, 10:27 AM
... So that's kinda equivalent to this situation: a readied action doesn't always necessarily interrupt something else, you can be asked to make another check at that point. Like I said before, Dex check would be best or possible with Initiative modifiers because it's the same sort of idea, DM's discretion.

This new Dexterity/Initiative check you advocate isnt RAW for readied actions, which states the order actions go in. It's a houserule.

Jack Mann
2007-05-10, 01:19 AM
I wasn't houseruling, I was paraphrasing WotC material that I can't place at the moment.

Brian, check out the Gamestoppers series of articles on the Wizards site. It sounds like it may have come from there, which could be the source of confusion. Those were back from 3.0, and it's possible that the ready action rules were different then.

EDIT: Nope, worked the same way back then. Something's screwy about your source, Brian.

bighead
2007-05-10, 02:13 AM
I really do not understand all the fuss. It is a workable tactic, and I do not think it is overpowered. Look at at it this way. Combat starts, and person with the highest initiative wins. So instead of using their action to attack something, cast a spell, or move into range to hurt the caster.......they stop and ready an action against a charge from an enemy reach fighter? They can't full attack, and they give up an action to negate one charge? So their turn ends...next...an enemy caster can cast some spells, the reach weapon weilding fighter could be wearing spiked armor which would allow an attack anyways. Why would a reach weapon fighter charge? Their whole design is to unload attack of opportunities. They would wait for you to come to them. Maybe they'll move into position. There are so many things that can happen that totally negates your ready action. For example, the reach weapon fighter does not charge, or charges someone else. NOW this is a great tactic against mounted lance combatants with spirited charge. That prevents you from taken an helacious amount of damage. But you'll still get stomped on by the horse.....does spirited charge apply to the mount as well?

Jack Mann
2007-05-10, 02:30 AM
Agreed, it's certainly not overpowered or cheesy.

NullAshton
2007-05-10, 06:39 AM
The specific situation that prompted this was actually me being unable to attack. It was because of a D&D fight I was in that I was unable to attack someone, because they had a mount. The readied action was to allow me to attack, and to allow me from the pain of being poked by a lance.

Rad
2007-05-10, 09:14 AM
I still think you need to move 10' to void the charge, thus provoking an AoO. Since the AoO does not have the benefits of the charge this is still advantageous for the chargee.
And I do think that this would be the correct interpretation of the rules.

Sundog
2007-05-10, 03:51 PM
I still think you need to move 10' to void the charge, thus provoking an AoO. Since the AoO does not have the benefits of the charge this is still advantageous for the chargee.
And I do think that this would be the correct interpretation of the rules.

I'm afraid not. It's a lot easier to see if you put it on a grid.

The charger gets to two squares away from the target (10'), that is, there is one empty square between him and the target. At that point, the readied action activates, before the attacker can do ANYTHING. The Target steps forward one square (5'), immediately adjacent to the attacker. He is now within the safe zone of the reach weapon, and has only taken a 5' step. He makes his attack. The attacker may not make any further moves (he has used up the movement part of his full round action) and cannot attack (he has no valid target). His turn ends.

Matthew
2007-05-10, 05:20 PM
Well, he can attack, he can at least use an Unarmed Strike; the question is what happens when his Charge is interrupted and spoiled (i.e. didn't move at least 10').

Diggorian
2007-05-10, 07:05 PM
The charger gets to two squares away from the target (10'), that is, there is one empty square between him and the target. At that point, the readied action activates, before the attacker can do ANYTHING. The Target steps forward one square (5'), immediately adjacent to the attacker. He is now within the safe zone of the reach weapon, and has only taken a 5' step. He makes his attack. The attacker may not make any further moves (he has used up the movement part of his full round action) and cannot attack (he has no valid target). His turn ends.

This illustrates the trickiness of Readied actions.

Sundog's example is if the players says "I ready to 5ft step in if he charges me." regarding a reach weapon wielding opponent. That opponent comes within 10ft, then the defenders acts right before the attack, leaving the charger attackless.

NullAshton's original scenario was to move 5ft when the charger comes within 10ft. Defender acts when charger is still at 15ft, about to enter 10ft range.

Damn semantics.

Gungnir
2007-05-10, 09:14 PM
My DM's Rule 0 response to this:

You deftly sidestep the soldier's charge, narrowly avoiding the deadly point of his spear. You smile at you own prowess as he whacks you upside the face with the haft of his spear.

Sutremaine
2007-05-10, 09:42 PM
Nice one, though I'd apply -2 circumstance penalty to the charger's attack roll, plus whatever penalties he takes for treating the spear as a double weapon.

Jack_Simth
2007-05-10, 10:58 PM
That's not the standard Charging paradox.

The standard is to ready an action to move sideways 30 feet when he's halfway through the charge.

A Charge must be in a straight line (Barring certain special abilities).
A Charge must be directly towards the target.

The readied action move makes the combo impossible, but the attacker is already commited to the Charge.

Sundog
2007-05-11, 07:18 AM
This illustrates the trickiness of Readied actions.

Sundog's example is if the players says "I ready to 5ft step in if he charges me." regarding a reach weapon wielding opponent. That opponent comes within 10ft, then the defenders acts right before the attack, leaving the charger attackless.

NullAshton's original scenario was to move 5ft when the charger comes within 10ft. Defender acts when charger is still at 15ft, about to enter 10ft range.

Damn semantics.

I still don't think you're right.

The attacked person CAN'T act when the charger is at 15', because the readied action trigger event hasn't been satisfied. He MUST wait until the attacker has reached 10'. Only then does the readied action trigger.

Therefore, again, the attacked person steps inside the reach of the longspear/polearm/lance and becomes immune to he charger's attack.

Yes, semantics are important, but as long as they're clear it shouldn't be a hassle.

Jayabalard
2007-05-11, 07:36 AM
This seems an obvious case where you use common sense...

The person with the reach weapon is charging... they don't run up, stop and then swing their weapon; they time it so that they weapon hits the target right as it gets into range. Nor does the readied action happen instantly.

If you want to dodge the blow and step toward the charging player (which is really what this readied action is), the dodge part is already modeled in the game by your Dex bonus to AC, the dodge feat, and his attack roll. You don't get to automagically dodge the blow just because you can poorly word a readied action.

Diggorian
2007-05-11, 11:50 AM
The attacked person CAN'T act when the charger is at 15', because the readied action trigger event hasn't been satisfied. He MUST wait until the attacker has reached 10'. Only then does the readied action trigger.

"The [readied] action occurs just before the action that triggers it."
-- SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready), Readying An Action first paragraph 4th sentence in.
-- PHB 3.5 pg. 160, second column same paragraph but the 5th sentence in.

Can it be anymore clear? In the PHB, the example given is for readying to shoot someone coming through a doorway. The shot isnt taken after they come through, it's taken when they're in the doorway about to come through. Readied actions are pre-emptive actions.

Justin_Bacon
2007-05-11, 04:04 PM
"The [readied] action occurs just before the action that triggers it."
-- SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#ready), Readying An Action first paragraph 4th sentence in.
-- PHB 3.5 pg. 160, second column same paragraph but the 5th sentence in.

Can it be anymore clear? In the PHB, the example given is for readying to shoot someone coming through a doorway. The shot isnt taken after they come through, it's taken when they're in the doorway about to come through. Readied actions are pre-emptive actions.

Lemme see if I've got your logic straight:

SCENARIO 1
Readied Action: Take a 5' step.
Trigger: Opponent gets to 10' away
Result: Opponent moves to 15' away, then he continues his move another 5 feet to the square 10' away, but the readied action is resolved first (while he's still 15' away).

Why? Because the action is taken BEFORE the character moves to 10 feet. Readied actions always take place before the action is resolved.

SCENARIO 2
Readied Action: Shoot an arrow
Trigger: As soon as I see an opponent in the doorway
Result: Opponent moves into the square immediately before entering the doorway, then he continues his move another 5 feet to the square where he's visible in the doorway, but the readied action is resolved first (while he's still out of sight): The character with the readied action shoots an arrow through an empty door and then watches his target come into sight.

Conclusion
You interpretation of how readied actions should be resolved is completely bogus.

Why are you making this mistake? Probably because you're parsing the language a little thinly. Here's that sentence in context:

"Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."

The statement that "the action occurs just before the action that triggers it" could probably have been more clearly stated, but given the overall context (juxtaposed as it is against "in response to that condition" and "interrupt the other character"), it's readily apparent that the only meaning intended here is that a readied action can prevent someone from completing an action.

Thus, if a spellcaster starts casting a spell you can whack them before they finish it. If an archer is going to shoot, you can whack them before they get the shot off. If a charger is moving from 10' to 5' you can whack them before they move closer than 10'. If a guy walks into a doorway you can shoot them before they take any other action.

The sentence you quoted is best understood to mean, "The action is resolved before you finish resolving the action that triggers it." And this is an interpretation which is reinforced every single time the rules for readying an action are used in the core rulebooks.

And everyone should also note that last quoted sentence from the SRD: There is no charging paradox. The rules tell you exactly how to resolve this situation. Read the rules. Use the rules. Love the rules.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Piccamo
2007-05-11, 05:09 PM
Justin, you've been a member since '05 and are only now starting to post a lot? Where have you been? :smalltongue:

Diggorian
2007-05-11, 05:25 PM
An excellant refutation. I see what your saying, Justin. I've forgotten the interruption aspect of Readied actions and over-focused on the preclusion. As long as the paradox myth is dispelled, I'm sated.

My interpretation was mistaken or wrong, as "bogus" implies a counterfeit or sham -- intentional deceit.

Sundog
2007-05-11, 07:45 PM
Thank you, Justin. Your explanation was very clear.

ronnyfire
2007-05-12, 12:59 PM
Lol. When the rules get stupid, throw them out. Then apply liberal uses of common sense to the bleeding wound.

You want to interrupt a guys charge with a readied action, by stepping into the charge??! Fine. Go for it. He gets to roll his charge attack as normal. His charge was valid when he started it, for me, thats enough to complete it, regardless of the eventual distance because of your actions. If he hits, you take extra damage because you, foolishly, stepped into the charge. (Think about it for a second...) If he misses, hey presto! You deftly dodge the incoming spear/halberd/longsword whatever, and end up well within striking range for your next turn.

if your charging at someone, your still going to need to make a strike, meening if someone stepped forward into you, you would not have the ability to make a strike cause of your large weapon.....

in real life if you get right up against someone with a big axe or something... they cant hit you with it befor you get like 10 punches off....

DaMullet
2007-05-12, 01:20 PM
One thing everyone is overlooking slightly:

Charges can have a bull rush at the end instead of an attack, and last I checked you don't decide until after you've closed the distance. So if this were to happen, the fighter would just slam into the now closer opponent, knocking him back x squares, and attack later.

Sundog
2007-05-13, 10:49 AM
One thing everyone is overlooking slightly:

Charges can have a bull rush at the end instead of an attack, and last I checked you don't decide until after you've closed the distance. So if this were to happen, the fighter would just slam into the now closer opponent, knocking him back x squares, and attack later.

That is true, but as a DM I would not permit somone to change their declared action as a response to the triggering of a readied action by another player. If someone has comitted to an attack, switching to a different one is not something he could easily do on the fly.

Theodoxus
2007-05-13, 11:59 AM
Lemme see if I've got your logic straight:

SCENARIO 1
Readied Action: Take a 5' step.
Trigger: Opponent gets to 10' away
Result: Opponent moves to 15' away, then he continues his move another 5 feet to the square 10' away, but the readied action is resolved first (while he's still 15' away).

Why? Because the action is taken BEFORE the character moves to 10 feet. Readied actions always take place before the action is resolved.

SCENARIO 2
Readied Action: Shoot an arrow
Trigger: As soon as I see an opponent in the doorway
Result: Opponent moves into the square immediately before entering the doorway, then he continues his move another 5 feet to the square where he's visible in the doorway, but the readied action is resolved first (while he's still out of sight): The character with the readied action shoots an arrow through an empty door and then watches his target come into sight.

Conclusion
You interpretation of how readied actions should be resolved is completely bogus.

Why are you making this mistake? Probably because you're parsing the language a little thinly. Here's that sentence in context:

"Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."

The statement that "the action occurs just before the action that triggers it" could probably have been more clearly stated, but given the overall context (juxtaposed as it is against "in response to that condition" and "interrupt the other character"), it's readily apparent that the only meaning intended here is that a readied action can prevent someone from completing an action.

Thus, if a spellcaster starts casting a spell you can whack them before they finish it. If an archer is going to shoot, you can whack them before they get the shot off. If a charger is moving from 10' to 5' you can whack them before they move closer than 10'. If a guy walks into a doorway you can shoot them before they take any other action.

The sentence you quoted is best understood to mean, "The action is resolved before you finish resolving the action that triggers it." And this is an interpretation which is reinforced every single time the rules for readying an action are used in the core rulebooks.

And everyone should also note that last quoted sentence from the SRD: There is no charging paradox. The rules tell you exactly how to resolve this situation. Read the rules. Use the rules. Love the rules.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Why, that's just silly Justin - afterall, those of us who think that multiple attack bonuses from Weapons of Speed can't be used in the same full attack sequence were put in our place by the words 'with it' from the very description of the ability. The Readied Action descriptor very clearly stats, as Diggorian rightly pointed out - you have to use your readied action before the triggering event occurs. Shoot through that empty doorway right before the enemy walks through. Move into a charge right before the charging man gets to 10'. It's what's written - you can't declare 'RAW' in one spot and 'RAI' in another... and common sense be damned. 3.5 isn't about common sense - we've all read the threads on what retarded rules there are.

If it were (about common sense), I'd play this scenario out a little better. Charging Man declares he's going after Rogue Boy the Impatient. Charging Man doesn't have to say what square he's charging into, only that RBtI is in a straight line that is clear of any obstacles. RBtI, who thanks to his roguely good dex, went first this round, notices CM and his glare of doom, and thinks to himself, 'gee, I better ready an action to make sure I can avoid his impending charge.' CM, being the smart and wonderful fighter he is, readies his longspear and runs fullbore at Rogue Boy the Impatient. When he gets to two squares away, RBtI darts in one square. CM thrusts his longspear forward at the same time, impaling the little bastard on his stick, all is right in the world.

Unfortunately, the rules are quite rigid, once an action begins, there's no way to change it, regardless of what circumstances mitigate between declaration and completion. (This is also a really good reason to use cheesy weapons, like a spiked chain, when making charges with reach weapons... you still get to hit whatever your intended victim is doing.)

Special Maneuvers, while colorful, are a tad too easy to accomplish with feats. Without the 2nd ed. declaration sequence, where the lowest initiative declared first and the highest initiative got to react to what everyone else is doing - this particular scenario would never occur - unless you're playing a hyper-paranoid. The metagaming would get out of hand quite quickly...

Ricky, the gnervous gnome: "I got a 24 for initiative, I ready an action against the orc with the halberd, in case he charges me. When he gets to 10', I'll dart in 5'."
DM: "Ok, the orc with the halberd walks over to Davy and takes a swing.
Ricky: "Shoot, I never get to fight anything"

How do you ready against an attack you have no idea is coming again?

Diggorian
2007-05-13, 03:34 PM
Justin was pointing out that Readied actions dont always go before the triggering act, sometimes they occur while the triggering act is happening. I found his interpretation solid from his quote of the RAW.

I ready to shoot someone appearing in a doorway, a doorway opening into a corridor that goes left and right let's say. Someone comes from the left intending to come in. By my former read, the arrow would get shot before they were visible. Seeing an arrow fly through the doorway would give someone pause so they'd stop. Therefore, preventing the triggering act that get's the arrow shot. It creates a paradox.

Justin was just showing that Readied acts can also go off as the trigger event is happening.


Unfortunately, the rules are quite rigid, once an action begins, there's no way to change it, regardless of what circumstances mitigate between declaration and completion.

Where is this rule? A character says they're traveling from Azure City to Cliffport, they cant react to anything along the way? Justin points out this isnt good sense in post #38.


How do you ready against an attack you have no idea is coming again?

You cant. Yet, often in the game you do have an idea or hunch that somethings are gonna happen. Your RBtI has just snuck the 4lb Eye of Gruumsh ruby from the alter while your friends are still searching. In the doorway, you notice two orc guards with longspears looking at you, holding the Eye.

headwarpage
2007-05-13, 06:18 PM
In response to those saying that the readied action is resolved when the charger is still 15' away:

That seems silly to me, and as a DM I'd rule that this trick works, but for the sake of argument, let's say that's how it works. But what happens if I say, "I ready an action to take a 5' step forward and attack if that guy attacks me with his reach weapon."? In that case, the trigger occurs when he's 10' away, and the readied action occurs before he makes his attack. And it's a less specific than readying the action just to respond to a charge, so there's a little bit less chance of my action being wasted.

So, does that work?

DaMullet
2007-05-13, 06:47 PM
That is true, but as a DM I would not permit somone to change their declared action as a response to the triggering of a readied action by another player. If someone has committed to an attack, switching to a different one is not something he could easily do on the fly.

Imagine you're running at someone with a pointed stick. If they suddenly step in closer, around the point, how hard is it to keep running and knock them over? Do your characters generally stop in surprise when the enemy does something? I don't really see why you'd do that.

Don't forget, even level 1 fighters are trained warriors, at least several years work. They'd know how to adjust their strategy 'on the fly.'

Sundog
2007-05-14, 04:17 AM
Imagine you're running at someone with a pointed stick. If they suddenly step in closer, around the point, how hard is it to keep running and knock them over? Do your characters generally stop in surprise when the enemy does something? I don't really see why you'd do that.

Don't forget, even level 1 fighters are trained warriors, at least several years work. They'd know how to adjust their strategy 'on the fly.'

Yes. But is a scout? A Bard? A Sorceror? All of them can do a charge with a longspear with no penalty.

I require my players to state their actions at the beginning of their actions, and then do them. Otherwise, I find far too many attempts to circumvent such things as readied actions and triggered traps, when there is no reasonable reason for the character to be able to change what they have already comitted to.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-14, 04:30 AM
Remember that you can just pull the weapon back a little(Your arms are not stiff sticks, after all. The elbow+shoulder joints allow for a lot of back and forth motion, even when you're charging with a spear) a little and as long as the opponent is still in the straight line, they'll be hit.

Heck, if you're willing to go ad-libbing, you can even have the charger shift his aim downwards and go vaulting beyond his opponent. :P But then you'll be leaving RAW, of course.

Jayabalard
2007-05-14, 06:22 AM
Yes. But is a scout? A Bard? A Sorceror? All of them can do a charge with a longspear with no penalty. Actually, they do have a penalty to charging with a longspear compared to an equal level fighter... it's called BAB. They're less likely to hit their target.

NullAshton
2007-05-14, 06:51 AM
Actually you can change your declared actions if something happens that would warrant changing your declared action. Say you charge, but succeed on your spot check to notice a hidden pit in front of you. You would be able to stop before the pit, instead of running across and into the pit like some sort of automaton. And if you only used a single move action to get to the pit, you could indeed forfeit the charge, and use your final standard attack to lob your long spear at the enemy.

And for you people who say that I would step in when they're 15 feet away, why couldn't I just say that I step in right after they get to 10 feet? Then I'd go before when I declared I would go in, but after said triggering action. Likewise, I could say that I attack/step in before they attack. That way I step in and attack before they get to attack, and thus avoid the attack again.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-14, 07:18 AM
Actually charging characters don't get to make spot checks to notice pits or the like.

Diggorian
2007-05-14, 11:38 AM
IIRC Tippy, if the Spot is called for by the DM it's not an action. It is a Move action if the player is actively trying to notice something new.

I'll let a character alter their action if the new action is still possible with what they've done so far that round. A charger with facing the "Step In" tactic can:


Make an unarmed attack
Smack the target with the haft of the spear (-4 for improvised weapon, 1d6 bludgeoning like a staff)
Jump over them if they've got enough movement left. Using the longspear to vault would just be a cool description for the move.
Tumble if they've got enough movement, with or without cool flavor.
Short haft the spear for a nasty surprise.
Bullrush


All these and other options would ofcourse only be resolved after the Readied action of the defender.

The White Knight
2007-05-14, 04:17 PM
To further enforce the "you don't have to act completely as declared at the start of your action" camp, I put forth the following scenario:

"You are in a corridor. The corridor extends forward ten feet, where it comes to a four way perpendicular intersection. You see nothing in the corridor ahead. What are your actions?"

If, during my action, I move ten feet forward, only to find a hostile skeleton ten feet down the left tunnel (that I was not aware of at the start of my action and could therefore not declare an attack against), if you want to try and tell me I cannot move another ten feet and layeth down the whoopings, then I'm not playing in your game anymore. :P

The 5 ft. step to avert a charge is a clever and effective use of a readied action, in my opinion, and seems to abide by the rules. I also see nothing wrong with the charger changing his charge to a bull rush, since they are fundamentally identical up to that point, in that they both come after an identical mode of movement. The charger didn't know the charge wasn't going to be valid and has to think on his/her feet, just like when I didn't know the skeleton was waiting for me around that corner.

NullAshton
2007-05-14, 05:23 PM
Technically you could step in at a diagonal. Since charges have to be made in a straight line, you couldn't bull rush.

Jayabalard
2007-05-14, 06:03 PM
IIRC Tippy, if the Spot is called for by the DM it's not an action. It is a Move action if the player is actively trying to notice something new. An intelligent GM doesn't call for a spot check while you're charging... You're kind of focused on other things...


And for you people who say that I would step in when they're 15 feet away, why couldn't I just say that I step in right after they get to 10 feet? Then I'd go before when I declared I would go in, but after said triggering action. Likewise, I could say that I attack/step in before they attack. That way I step in and attack before they get to attack, and thus avoid the attack again.why not just ready an action to cause them to miss when they attack.. .then they don't even need to be charging or using a reach weapon...

Justin_Bacon
2007-05-17, 04:34 AM
That is true, but as a DM I would not permit somone to change their declared action as a response to the triggering of a readied action by another player. If someone has comitted to an attack, switching to a different one is not something he could easily do on the fly.

That's harsh, man.

Wizard: I ready an action to cast wall of fire when the fighter starts running.

Fighter: I run 60 feet down the hallway.

Wizard: I take my readied action. I place the wall of fire exactly 60 feet down the hall from the fighter.

Fighter: ... Despite the fact that I see the wall of fire from 60 feet away, I guess I just keep running straight ahead until I run right into it.


It's what's written - you can't declare 'RAW' in one spot and 'RAI' in another... and common sense be damned. 3.5 isn't about common sense - we've all read the threads on what retarded rules there are.

The statement that "the action occurs just before the action that triggers it" is, at worst, vague. Does it mean the action happens through some sort of prescience before the triggering condition exists? Or does it mean that the action occurs before the action that triggers it is resolved? IMO, the context makes the later interpretation incontrovertibly true.

You are choosing to interpret a potentially vague statement in a way which you know makes no sense. That's your prerogative, of course. But when I'm offered a choice between an interpretation which makes sense and an interpretation which doesn't, I'm going to take the interpretation which makes sense while remaining true to RAW.

Some people, of course, just like to make life difficult for themselves.


How do you ready against an attack you have no idea is coming again?

There are literally hundreds of thousands of people from throughout history who can attest to their ability to ready themselves for a charge.

Not to mention that a large chunk of Judo can be accurately described as such.


An intelligent GM doesn't call for a spot check while you're charging... You're kind of focused on other things...

Wow. You just implied that someone else is stupid because they don't believe that people run around on a battlefield with their eyes closed?

That's amazing.

I'll buy the claim that being in a battle counts as a distraction when making Spot checks. But that's covered in the rules: It's a -5 penalty.

And we're talking about noticing a pit. What's the DC for spotting an open pit? DC -10?

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Sutremaine
2007-05-18, 07:14 PM
Technically you could step in at a diagonal. Since charges have to be made in a straight line, you couldn't bull rush.
Does a charge have to be made in such a fashion that any further movement would take you through the opponent's square, or are you merely required to threaten your opponent at the end of your charge? Is a 5ft step still a 5ft step if the movement would normally cost 7.5ft?

The White Knight
2007-05-19, 09:20 AM
Does a charge have to be made in such a fashion that any further movement would take you through the opponent's square, or are you merely required to threaten your opponent at the end of your charge? Is a 5ft step still a 5ft step if the movement would normally cost 7.5ft?

Yes, a diagonal 5ft. step is legal. No, your movement doesn't have to intersect the target's square to be valid for a charge - it just has to take you to the nearest square. Unfortunately, a bull rush DOES require you to enter your target's square, so I guess that means your movement does require you to intersect their location since your charge requires straight-line movement. Of course, the charger could just take a swipe with his gauntlet (assuming he's wearing 'em) to make his charge as usual, albeit without his weapon of choice.