Monster manual cult fanatic CR too high?

[stenver]

Hello,

Can anybody explain to me how can the cult fanatics CR be 2?

It has 33 hp, AC 13, attack bonus +4, average dmg 13,5(spiritual weapon 4,5 ; 2 daggers 4,5 each)

Defensive CR 1/8
Offensive CR 2
Total CR 1/2 ?

[Flashy]

I have no idea. Even assuming it starts the battle with Shield of Faith and calculating the average damage of the first three rounds as Spritual Weapon -> Inflict Wounds -> Inflict Wounds it still works out as defensive CR 1/4 offensive CR 2.

[Inevitability]

I believe someone figured out spellcasting NPC's in the MM often use their caster level as offensive CR. If that were the case, the fanatic's CR would be ((4+1/8)/2), which is a little over 2.

[Kryx]

Caster Level is exactly what I use for my PF -> 5e converter which accurately predicts CR.

So 5th level spell = 9th or 10th offensive CR. Converting from old editions they provide the CL so it's easier.

[Shining Wrath]

Caster level for offensive CR only works if the caster has effective spells. Setting that aside this looks like a mistake; it ought to be CR 1 if you average the two together.

[pwykersotz]

Caster level for offensive CR only works if the caster has effective spells. Setting that aside this looks like a mistake; it ought to be CR 1 if you average the two together.

Agreed, it looks like if you push the damage to the limit and have Spiritual Weapon pre-cast, you can do 27.5 / 27.5 / 22 damage over the first three rounds which averages to CR 3 offensively, then pre-cast Shield of Faith for CR 1/4 defensively, averaging to CR 1. That's a pretty hefty min-maxing reading of the CR system though, erring on the high side. It's definitely mis-labled.

[stenver]

Wonder how many other monsters in MM are so mislabeled. Any hope for erratas?

[Shining Wrath]

Wonder how many other monsters in MM are so mislabeled. Any hope for erratas?

PHB has an errata sheet out so high probability for MM IMNHO.

[Kryx]

Nearly every monster in the MM has skill proficiencies that match their Proficiency Bonus + Attribute Bonus.

I tweeted Crawford about the ~30 cases where this is not the case and he basically made an excuse for their bad math of missing the mark by a point (Lich for example).

I doubt small things like this will be fixed based on that response.

[DMBlackhart]

Can someone explain to me where this CR math is coming from? I didn't know you could calculate effective CR like this in 5e. Please and Thanks You.

[JNAProductions]

The Dungeon Master's Guide has a section explaining it.

[stenver]

I tweeted Crawford about the ~30 cases where this is not the case and he basically made an excuse for their bad math of missing the mark by a point (Lich for example).


Im interested - what is the liches true CR? I want to make sure it will be an epic battle when it happens, not an easy one

[Baptor]

Nearly every monster in the MM has skill proficiencies that match their Proficiency Bonus + Attribute Bonus.

I tweeted Crawford about the ~30 cases where this is not the case and he basically made an excuse for their bad math of missing the mark by a point (Lich for example).

I doubt small things like this will be fixed based on that response.

That is so irritating to hear. This is one big reason why I make all my own monsters, with the MM as a source of inspiration.

[Kryx]

The lich's CR is fine. His skill bonus is incorrect based on the math. For nearly every monster it is stat + proficiency or expertise. For one of the lich's skills (I forget which) his bonus is off by 1, but the rest follow the normal rule.

This is documented by a guy who analyzed the MM for bad math. You can Google for it.

[MaxWilson]

PHB has an errata sheet out so high probability for MM IMNHO.

Confirmed by Crawford in Sage Advice:

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/sage-advice-june2015


Some monsters have resistance or immunity to damage from nonmagical weapons. How is that affected by the change to unarmed strikes in the PH errata?
The change to unarmed strikes is related to a correction coming in the Monster Manual. As corrected, unarmed strikes aren’t weapons, but a character can use them to make melee weapon attacks. Such strikes aren’t meant to bypass a creature’s resistance or immunity to bludgeoning damage from nonmagical weapons.

Here’s a simple fix to use until the Monster Manual errata is released: whenever a stat block refers to resistance or immunity to bludgeoning damage from nonmagical weapons, read that last part as “nonmagical weapon attacks.

Emphasis added.

[Kryx]

Yes, they will errata some things, but it is highly doubtful that they will fix small things like math. Based on their standard for the PHB they will mostly only touch things that are substantial.

I think it's incredibly unlikely that we'll see many of the math issues brought up in D&D 5th Edition Monster Manual Dissected (WIP) (http://d-d-campaign-manager.webnode.fi/news/d-d-5th-edition-monster-manual-dissected-wip-/) fixed.

[PoeticDwarf]

Hello,

Can anybody explain to me how can the cult fanatics CR be 2?

It has 33 hp, AC 13, attack bonus +4, average dmg 13,5(spiritual weapon 4,5 ; 2 daggers 4,5 each)

Defensive CR 1/8
Offensive CR 2
Total CR 1/2 ?

Because it is with casters hard to get CR, the offensive CR is with Monster Manual often caster level, I'm not the first who said this, but it is an answer and it is probably right, what do you want more?:smallwink:

[stenver]

I think it's incredibly unlikely that we'll see many of the math issues brought up in D&D 5th Edition Monster Manual Dissected (WIP) (http://d-d-campaign-manager.webnode.fi/news/d-d-5th-edition-monster-manual-dissected-wip-/) fixed.

Thanks for the link! Im going to be using this a lot!