20-of-the-most-useless-dungeons-and-dragons-spells-ever

[Bullet06320]

http://io9.com/20-of-the-most-useless-dungeons-dragons-spells-ever-1724583258

found this article and thought I would share it

[Jormengand]

I'm not sure why the list contains a fairly powerful 1st-level escape, a no-save-just-lose which is the only one of its type in core unless I'm forgetting something, a flying disk that can carry more than the party fighter, and a couple of other neat spells. I would be tempted to include, say, Rouse, which has no actual effect, rather than any of those.

[Bullet06320]

every spell on that list is usefull in some way or another to creative players, granted some are more circumstantial than others, sounds more the guy has never played a game of DnD n his life and just flipped through a random list of spells and picked 20 that didn't make sense to a non player

[nedz]

He lists Shillelagh ?
I've built entire characters around that spell.

Detect Undead, well suppose they are hiding in the floor ?

Disguise Undead is for Necromancers to take their friends into town, or set a trap or, ... well there are loads of uses.

This has to be one of the most useless D&D lists ever.

[Agahnim]

Half of this list are actually useful spells.
Corpse candle, shillelagh, low-level teleportation (the basket thing), Otto's dance...
The author of that list also makes strange factual errors.

[Kurald Galain]

I get the impression that this article is based on 1st edition, and many of the spells have different parameters in other editions. As I recall, Shillelagh is a pretty bad spell in 1E/2E, but has its niche in 3E.

[Eldan]

[QUOTE=nedz;19691718]
Detect Undead, well suppose they are hiding in the floor ?/QUOTE]

Or disguised. They might be vampires or liches posing as normal humans. Or possessing people.

[Bronk]

Yeah, I can see uses for all of those spells, good ones, more or less depending on which edition you're playing or how much realism the DM is enforcing. Even the last one, to stay dry, would be great for a wizard who doesn't want his spell book to get soggy.

I agree that the author has probably never played before. It's not going to help a wizard to put his stuff in a backpack if strength was his dump stat!

I especially like the 'Basket Trick' spell though... it sounds like it would play out a lot like Marion Ravenwood hiding from the Nazis in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

[ben-zayb]

Considering we have a contest where various underwhelming PrCs get optimized somewhere between usefuk to broken, I am not buying this uncreative notion of "useless spells".

[nedz]

Considering we have a contest where various underwhelming PrCs get optimized somewhere between usefuk to broken, I am not buying this uncreative notion of "useless spells".

No such things do exist.

In AD&D there was a 3rd level spell called Flaming Arrow, which created a flame on an arrow. The trouble was that Fireball is the same level, had a longer range, always 'hit', did more damage and also set things alight.

In 3.5 we have several dysfunctional spells which just don't function, ...

It's just that the list quoted is quite useless.

[noob]

Well it seems this guy never played a sea campaign.

[Nifft]

It's funny that he says Detect Undead is useless, and the next spell on his list is Disguise Undead.

I mean, it's plausible that Detect Undead is not going to see much use in a campaign where there's no diplomatic Vampire-Rogues or secret Lich-Kings, but if you know that Disguise Undead is a thing, then the justification for Detect Undead is pretty blatant: it defeats Disguise Undead.

[frogglesmash]

It reminds me of this (http://nerdbastards.com/2010/02/04/top-10-lamestworst-dd-spells/), though not quite as terrible.

[DigoDragon]

every spell on that list is usefull in some way or another to creative players

I once had a group who's team wizard used Tenser’s Floating Disc to help other players traverse floor hazards like ice and electrified metal plates.

[RossN]

Well it seems this guy never played a sea campaign.

Definitely. A few of those would make a formidable spell casting pirate.

[ComaVision]

2-of-the-most-useless-dungeons-and-dragons-lists-ever

[Socratov]

Shillelagh si useful at low levels. Also, you are always armed with a weapon with a luck bonus.

detect undead, corpselight and disguise undead are all useful. I mean, what if you have an intelligent undead who makes himself invisible? Well, corpselight him so you can see his light and attack him. Saves the mundanes a lot of effort.

Otto's Irresistable Dance is funny. yes, it's an 8th level spell and at that level you can tell reality to sit down an shut up, but at this level you can tell everyone to start dancing and keep dancing until dead. nothing as useful for your party as someone who is dancing uncontrollably...

Tenser's Floating Disk? Golden for those who have dumped strength and can't carry the load of books, staves, wands and other stuff you need as an adventuring party. Also, get creative and you might use it as an elevator...

Spendelard's chaser is great if you have a DM who knows how to (ab)use the rules for addiction and drugs while screwing over the party and creating a plot to cure/procure the drug in question.

As for the list provided by Froggle,

Fairy Fire is one of the greatest anti Invisibility spells out there. Clairvoyance/Clairaudience at low level you don't get to use scry on the fly as if it were nothing and you'd like to save your higher level slots (lvl 2-5) for combat stuff. Friend is great for, you know, not screwing up relations. Making someone seem friendly is much more acceptable then using charm on someone. the next 2 (irresistable Dance and Shillelagh) I have already covered. Starlight: ...or maybe you are trying to sneak, but want to see where you are going. then a decently lit sky is a good idea instead of a torch or dancing light on your person. Detect Undead has been discussed, Affect fires is not very useful, I'll give them that, but Magic Stone is useful for ranged halflings and haste is one of the best buffs for gishes out there. Sure it ages you, but who actually tracks that? (and otherwise it's a great reason to finally play that elf or find a plotcure for your bodily aging problem).

As for the bonus, this confirms my suspicion of this article being written by an idiot. Just the fact that you can't figure out a use for a spell, or word your wish properly then you shouldn't play a wizard.

[ComaVision]

Correct me if I'm wrong but neither Haste nor Wish have an age penalty in 3.5

[Nifft]

Correct me if I'm wrong but neither Haste nor Wish have an age penalty in 3.5

Casting either spell ages you by roughly six seconds.

(Yes you're entirely correct.)

[Threadnaught]

1: Light Blindness.
2: Low level escape/hiding Spell.
3: Barred gates? Through the keyhole?
4: Message/information.
5: Aquatic Campaigns, also discover location of shinies and dead woodfish.
6: Many dungeon crawls take place in dark mausoleums. Now they're not so dark.
7: Trap triggerer device.
8: Many dungeons go pretty deep.
9: Undead are pretty good at hiding if they're intelligent Undead and planning an ambush.
10: Got a Wight Wizard who doesn't want people knowing it's a Wight? Yeah, this'll solve that problem, right up until it touches them to suck the life from them, but they're basically dead anyway.
11: I have problems believing this is either A: A real Spell, or B: Not from Dragon.
12: Y'know that trick where you jam a chair just below a door handle to prevent the door from opening? This is the magical version for when there are no chairs.
13: Not one I'd use, but it still incapacitates just as well.
14: D&D characters do require food, usually.
15: Low level Wild Shape substitute.
16: Aren't Wizards with the cold subtype allowed to enjoy a friendly snowball fight? Also, reminds me of Produce Flame for some reason. Is this an attempt to create a Cold based Produce Flame?
17: There are many illicit substances in several settings that can cause addition, pretty sure this could be leveraged for information/resources.
18: Piracy Campaign ahoy!
19: Most Wizards can barely carry 100lbs as a Heavy Load, let alone the amount they'd be able to lift with this Spell at higher levels.
20: Asherati and Dry Lich from Sandstorm would find this Spell to be a useful form of protection against foes who know their weakness and to allow exploration where it is more humid than their desert home.


It's funny that he says Detect Undead is useless, and the next spell on his list is Disguise Undead.

I mean, it's plausible that Detect Undead is not going to see much use in a campaign where there's no diplomatic Vampire-Rogues or secret Lich-Kings, but if you know that Disguise Undead is a thing, then the justification for Detect Undead is pretty blatant: it defeats Disguise Undead.

No it doesn't.


This spell also foils magical means of detecting undead. The subject of disguise undead detects as a creature of the type simulated.

Sorry Nifft, you are simply wrong.

[elonin]

It's been stated before, but all spells are situational. Better spells tend to be more general in use these spells just aren't that. There are times I'd rather have a jump up to 10' spell for 1 minute rather than a benign transposition. For example if i need to get through a gate to push a lever. Corpse light could be cool for necromancers to add to the fright factor.

I'm also facepalming that Tensers disk was mentioned. That is the go to take everything out of the dungeon spell for its level.

[YossarianLives]

Otto's dance is easily my favourite spell in any edition of D&D. I'm deeply offended.

[nedz]

Affect fires is not very useful, I'll give them that,

Fire extinguisher for when your ship has just been fire-balled. Fire is the great ship killer.
Again: situation.

[Kurald Galain]

Ok, so instead of discussing that silly little article, what do YOU think are the most useless spells?


Poisoned Egg. Because seriously, what?
Advanced Scurvy. Again, what? :smallamused:
Acid Splash. Simply because I've met too many players whose idea of an effective wiz/sorc is to cast acid splash each round.
Dancing Lantern, because it does the same as the Light cantrip.
Zone of Truth, first because victims get a saving throw so you still don't know if they're telling the truth, and second because victims know they've been hit so they can elect to simply not say anything.
Lighten Object, which halves an object's weight but can only be cast on small objects, which don't weigh so much in the first place.
Surmount Affliction, a self-only spell that removes the dazed, frightened, and paralyzed conditions... except that those conditions prevent you from casting spells...

[ComaVision]

Acid Splash. Simply because I've met too many players whose idea of an effective wiz/sorc is to cast acid splash each round.


Great for damaging delicate objects that have hardness though.

[Nifft]

No it doesn't.

Sorry Nifft, you are simply wrong.
Do you genuinely think he's talking about 3.x edition? Did you not notice how he thinks Haste and Wish both age the caster a certain number of years?

Or did you just blank on the idea that other editions exist at all?

Well, whatever. Here's some research which you ought to do yourself next time.

http://i.imgur.com/Nvn2cN8.png

http://i.imgur.com/xAwJaTP.png

[Kurald Galain]

Great for damaging delicate objects that have hardness though.

Yes, also great on rogues. It's just my pet peeve for "ability that I've repeatedly seen used in a very pointless manner".

[YossarianLives]

Ok, so instead of discussing that silly little article, what do YOU think are the most useless spells?
Mordenkainen's Buzzing Bee.

[nedz]

http://i.imgur.com/Nvn2cN8.png

http://i.imgur.com/xAwJaTP.png

So this spell can't be used by Necromancers, because: opposing schools. This seriously limits it's use.

[Nifft]

Ok, so instead of discussing that silly little article, what do YOU think are the most useless spells?


Surmount Affliction, a self-only spell that removes the dazed, frightened, and paralyzed conditions... except that those conditions prevent you from casting spells...
I suspect that spell was intended to be used via Contingency, but yeah... I can just imagine all the annoyed casters discovering in the heat of combat that they can't cast that spell because they need that spell.

it'd be like if the Vocalize spell had a verbal component.

Anyway, useless spells... 3.5e Sleep. Such a huge nerf from its 1e glory days. Ugh.

EDIT:

So this spell can't be used by Necromancers, because: opposing schools. This seriously limits it's use.
Yeah, and also it can't be used by Illusionists.

The irony is that a level 2 spell (Cloak Undead) does defeat Detect Undead. This 5th level spell fails in many ways.

[Bronk]

Do you genuinely think he's talking about 3.x edition? Did you not notice how he thinks Haste and Wish both age the caster a certain number of years?


Can you imagine how powerful dragons would be in 3.5 if those spells still had age penalties though? 1 year for haste, 5 for wish, IIRC. Brrr.

[dascarletm]

Do you genuinely think he's talking about 3.x edition? Did you not notice how he thinks Haste and Wish both age the caster a certain number of years?

Or did you just blank on the idea that other editions exist at all?

Well, whatever. Here's some research which you ought to do yourself next time.


http://rs271.pbsrc.com/albums/jj160/VitaminKitten/Gifs/House-ohsnap.gif~c200

[Kurald Galain]

I suspect that spell was intended to be used via Contingency, but yeah... I can just imagine all the annoyed casters discovering in the heat of combat that they can't cast that spell because they need that spell.

The problem then would be that Surmount is a cleric spell whereas Contingency is a wizard spell :smallbiggrin:

[ComaVision]

The problem then would be that Surmount is a cleric spell whereas Contingency is a wizard spell :smallbiggrin:

The Archivist fails to see the problem here. (Well, and the Time Domain Cleric... and Spell-to-power Erudite... so on)

[NeoPhoenix0]

Great for damaging delicate objects that have hardness though.

Acid doesn't ignore hardness though. It just does full damage unlike other energy types which are reduced before you apply hardness.

[Nifft]

Can you imagine how powerful dragons would be in 3.5 if those spells still had age penalties though? 1 year for haste, 5 for wish, IIRC. Brrr. Dragonwrought Kobolds benefit disproportionately (as usual).


The problem then would be that Surmount is a cleric spell whereas Contingency is a wizard spell :smallbiggrin: Derp, I totally missed that detail. Thanks.

Well, then I got nothing which could justify that spell.

Cleric/Wizard multiclass is just not a big enough niche.

[ComaVision]

Acid doesn't ignore hardness though. It just does full damage unlike other energy types which are reduced before you apply hardness.

Had to go reread that, then google it for clarification. I had definitely misinterpreted that for years.

[Segev]

Acid Splash. Simply because I've met too many players whose idea of an effective wiz/sorc is to cast acid splash each round.


To be fair, sometimes that's all the first-level sorcerer or wizard can do. That or fire a light crossbow.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Had to go reread that, then google it for clarification. I had definitely misinterpreted that for years.

It is a common mistake people make, and I think an understandable one. They could definitely make it more clear.

On the topic of useless spells. When I go home I need to look through tome of magic and magic of incarnum. I remember there being some pretty situational stuff in there.

[Chronos]

Acid Splash can't be the most useless spell, because Ray of Frost exists. It's the same thing, except it deals a form of damage that's more often resisted, it can't damage objects, and it offers spell resistance.

That said, wands of both are cheap enough that a rogue might as well carry around one of each, in case of fire subtype creatures or acid immunity.

[Threadnaught]

Do you genuinely think he's talking about 3.x edition? Did you not notice how he thinks Haste and Wish both age the caster a certain number of years?

Or did you just blank on the idea that other editions exist at all?

Well, whatever. Here's some research which you ought to do yourself next time.

(Snip)

So terribly sorry, but this thread was made in the D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 forum and not the Roleplaying Games forum or the Older D&D/AD&D and Other Systems forum, so what research I did was to look up as many of the Spells as I could find in D&D 3e/3.5e books that I own, as I could. Which I did.
If only I hadn't lacked psychic powers like a barely sentient primeval retard, perhaps I wouldn't have deserved to receive your overly condescending response so much.

There's no mention of edition in the article outside the comments, nor are Wish or Haste at all mentioned in the article proper, and once again this is the D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 forum. I don't think threads about other editions/systems are all too welcome here, but I may be wrong about that.


Perhaps if you'd tried to assuage my confusion over Guise of the Yak-Man and Waterbane, by pointing out their existence in another edition, I'd react better than being an ungrateful peasant unfit to lick your oh so majestic boots.
Again, I must apologize for being unable to figure out which edition the author was referring to with such scarce clues, and for being an ungrateful runt who lacks the intellect to be worth your time. I will not attempt to waste it in the future.

[ahenobarbi]

Ok, so instead of discussing that silly little article, what do YOU think are the most useless spells?
(...)

Acid Splash. Simply because I've met too many players whose idea of an effective wiz/sorc is to cast acid splash each round.


This one is actually pretty good in right combos (snaek attack base, cloudy conuration trigger). And I haven't seen anyone use it incorrectly (when they should have used a light crossbow (which deals more damage, has longer range and more uses per day).

As for a most useless spell.. maybe Permanency? Looks ver attractive but in reality it allocates a lot of resources in a way that makes them really easy to destroy? Transformation is pretty bad (unless you use it on your familiar (but it's still pretty bad for a 6th level spell)).

[Jormengand]

-Snip-

You just earned the right to a mic-drop. You may save it for whenever you believe to be the appropriate moment.

:smalltongue:

[Threadnaught]

You just earned the right to a mic-drop. You may save it for whenever you believe to be the appropriate moment.

:smalltongue:

Amusingly I meant like, half of it.

I have respect for Nifft, so I won't argue with him over a thread potentially being in the wrong forum. I just attempted to make him feel good with a little ego stroking and then put him on ignore.

[dascarletm]

Snip

:smalleek:

You scare me master of Rudisplorking...

[eggynack]

Ok, so instead of discussing that silly little article, [b]what do YOU think are the most useless spells?
I'm not sure if it's actually the most useless, but I'm going with superior magic fang, if only for false advertising. It looks decent on the surface, giving an increased bonus on the multiple natural weapons mode in exchange for a +1 to spell level, except in addition to that spell level increase, they also felt the need to reduce the duration to rounds/level. The previous version was, of course, hours/level, which was a big part of its power, so you're essentially paying a spell level premium for a power reduction.

Second spell that's useless is greater whirlwind, again on the merit of relative power level. You get a mobile tornado for a 9th level spell, except by that time you can inevitably just use control winds for a tornado out of a 5th level slot. Sure, it's not a mobile tornado, but you actually get increased duration and radius for your trouble, so it's arguably a superior effect. And, on the topic of crap 9th's, I'll add on storm of vengeance, which is far worse if not so directly comparable, causing tiny effects for its duration, and regeneration, which is pointless in a world with no mechanical way to remove a limb.

Fifth spell, I'm going with beget bogun, more out of disappointment than out of actual effect. You get a fancy permanent friend, which is basically my favorite thing ever, except your little first level spell which is very much priced accurately requires a feat investment, a reasonable but somewhat annoying thing, a week of work, which is a bit much but fine for a first level minionmancy spell, and a frigging 8th level spell, because you're apparently supposed to spend a week creating a crappy construct when you have 8th's readily available. Why they felt the need to put all of those costs there is anyone's guess.

Closing off the list for now, dinosaur stampede. It's just such a disappointing little spell, turning one of the greatest spell names in existence into a mediocre blasting spell. It's probably nowhere near the other options on this list in terms of badness, but my heart aches for a dinosaur stampede that does some real work out of a slot that's not ludicrously higher than necessary. It's just part of the overall theme of this spell list, I think. The designers, perhaps rightly, feared the effects of a given spell, and so they applied one or two costs too many, ignoring what comparable spells were doing.

[Threadnaught]

superior magic fang,

I feel the same way, this is one of the rare Spells I wish to house rule to be the upgrade it first appears to be.


greater whirlwind,

It's nice looking, but Control Wind has so much more destructive force over a much larger area, for a longer duration. I can't find anything nice to say about this one.
Uhh, it can uhh... Yeah, it sucks, I'll suggest it to that ******* Druid when he starts preparing 9th level Druid Spells. :smallamused:


storm of vengeance,

Actually I kinda like this one, it's not the kind of Spell likely to be cast by a PC unless Evil Campaign or mass combat against really low level mooks. Storm of Elemental Fury is a 7th level version which does 4 rounds, rather than the full 10. Also still not a PC type Spell.


regeneration,

Regeneration is very helpful for me as a DM who allowed his player's Barbarian//Swordsage to rip off both of a Gnomes arms. The Gnome got his memory back as well as his arms, not that the players knew about it while it happened.


beget bogun,

Well, thanks for ruining this Spell for me Natural Rudisplorker. Time to house rule another Spell into usefulness, or just bludgeon it into usefulness with fiat.


dinosaur stampede.

Never liked this one. Even the artwork offends my eyes and I adore the Spell Compendium for its artwork.

Additionally, the 1 Round duration Divination Spells and the 1st level Enchantment Spells (besides Distract Assailant), on the Sorcerer/Wizard list in the Spell Compendium. Oh I don't like them.


:smalleek:

You scare me master of Rudisplorking...

People tend to find me terrifying when I'm enraged or trying to creep them out for the lulz.
Well I do have a habit of never forgiving malicious or aggressive acts against me, struggle to forget anything that has ever happened in my life, have a vengeful personality and am a very passive aggressive person.
I would never admit to being a good person, but I do try to be.
I still want to call that one guy a jerk for killing an NPC I had grown attached to. The only reason I let him was because, if I didn't, I'd become one of those DMs. I wanted him to die fighting the party in glorious combat, not because some jerk murdered him as a joke. :smallfrown:
Man, what a jerk. I really want to call that player a jerk.
You guys may recognize that ******* Druid from earlier posts around the forums. My best friend irl, he knows what I post here as it's pretty cathartic for me to show him when in one session he's caused me considerable stress. He takes a while to be ready for a given session and when he finally is ready, he usually plays as if we're playing Fire Emblem. Not Awakening or the latest one, but classic Fire Emblem where you can't replay levels and once someone dies, they're gone unless you restart.
He thinks every encounter I'll throw against him will be designed to cause a TPK.

The way I DM is exactly in keeping with my personality, everything is designed to make things hard for the PCs. Even when they're rewarded, there's always the implication that something could have horrible consequences, whether I plan for something to come back to bite them or not.
Circa has been scaring me to the point where I fear I'll be unable to handle his character without fiat. I can handle him for now since (and only because) he keeps making mistakes by forgetting about stuff and doesn't know all that much about Eberron, but I know I have to take control of the situation and curb his power somehow. He's not even trying and doing it for the lulz, but he's come close to derailing the plot for multiple parts of the Campaign several times over. Ugh, it's almost like the apocalypse will never happen with his Pixie in the party.

Greater Invisibility sucks for a DM. GAF.

[eggynack]

Regeneration is very helpful for me as a DM who allowed his player's Barbarian//Swordsage to rip off both of a Gnomes arms. The Gnome got his memory back as well as his arms, not that the players knew about it while it happened.
Yeah, I suppose it's a story spell, but it's weird that there's a cure for a condition that essentially doesn't exist.


Actually I kinda like this one, it's not the kind of Spell likely to be cast by a PC unless Evil Campaign or mass combat against really low level mooks. Storm of Elemental Fury is a 7th level version which does 4 rounds, rather than the full 10. Also still not a PC type Spell.
It just feels like a spell whose only asset is radius, and the radius isn't actually that great. Compare it to, say, blizzard, which has arguably superior effects and a better radius at what is again a much lower level, and it seems pretty clear that storm is crappy. The underlying problem is that they just made some really amazing 5th level spells, and then made some 9th's as if those 5th's didn't exist.

Well, thanks for ruining this Spell for me Natural Rudisplorker. Time to house rule another Spell into usefulness, or just bludgeon it into usefulness with fiat.

I was in basically the same boat, all excited by writing up this cool low level minion spell, and then I noticed the horror, and was all sad. Same thing happened with scales of the sealord. I was super happy about another hours/level AC spell to stack atop luminous armor, and then noticed that the bonus type means it doesn't stack with wild shape based natural armor. Tragic thing, that.

[Nifft]

Yeah, I suppose it's a story spell, but it's weird that there's a cure for a condition that essentially doesn't exist. It does exist in the universe, it's just not relevant for most PCs. In that regard, it's similar to Atonement.

It also allows "cutscene" violence like chopping off a PC's hand, and then the party is supposed to quest for the spell MacGuffin to get his hand back.

[ericgrau]

Anyway, useless spells... 3.5e Sleep. Such a huge nerf from its 1e glory days. Ugh.

Nerfed again from 3e to 3.5e for being too strong. And yet still perhaps the strongest core 1st level spell at low levels, or in the top 3.

[Nifft]

Nerfed again from 3e to 3.5e for being too strong. And yet still perhaps the strongest core 1st level spell at low levels, or in the top 3.

Yeah, and it really depends on HD, which a very wonky mechanic in 3.x since there's no fixed relationship between CR and HD.

You basically need to have read the MM and memorized monster stats and correctly guess which creatures have class levels to use 3.x Sleep effectively.

There's a similar disconnect between the Summon Monster line vs. the Planar Binding line, but that seems a lot less pernicious -- in part because they're generally used at much higher levels, when a player is expected to be more experienced with the nuances of the game.

[eggynack]

It does exist in the universe, it's just not relevant for most PCs. In that regard, it's similar to Atonement.

It also allows "cutscene" violence like chopping off a PC's hand, and then the party is supposed to quest for the spell MacGuffin to get his hand back.
Nah, atonement is more relevant. There's a clear mechanical way to get from not needing atonement to needing atonement, and you could maybe even cast some spells to reach that point. With hand loss, there's really not much that'll get it to happen. I don't think there are even rules to cut off someone's hand, even if they're helpless before you. It's one of those things where you just have to say it happens, and hope for the best. It's really weird that there's no spell or effect for it, at least to my knowledge, given the presence of regeneration effects.

[Nifft]

Nah, atonement is more relevant. There's a clear mechanical way to get from not needing atonement to needing atonement, and you could maybe even cast some spells to reach that point. With hand loss, there's really not much that'll get it to happen. I don't think there are even rules to cut off someone's hand, even if they're helpless before you. It's one of those things where you just have to say it happens, and hope for the best. It's really weird that there's no spell or effect for it, at least to my knowledge, given the presence of regeneration effects.

Yeah, it's a weird situation where there is some mechanical support for the result of the condition -- Stump Blade from 3e and the Hand of Torm PrC in 3.5e off the top of my head -- but no support for imposing the condition in the first place.

[The Fury]

Yeah, it's a weird situation where there is some mechanical support for the result of the condition -- Stump Blade from 3e and the Hand of Torm PrC in 3.5e off the top of my head -- but no support for imposing the condition in the first place.

Grim Revenge spell from the Book of Vile Darkness? For those that haven't read the book in question, or are otherwise unfamiliar, Grim Revenge animates the target's hand which then tears itself off and attacks the target.

[Nifft]

Grim Revenge spell from the Book of Vile Darkness? For those that haven't read the book in question, or are otherwise unfamiliar, Grim Revenge animates the target's hand which then tears itself off and attacks the target.

Ah, nice, BoVD to the rescue.

[frogglesmash]

Grim Revenge spell from the Book of Vile Darkness? For those that haven't read the book in question, or are otherwise unfamiliar, Grim Revenge animates the target's hand which then tears itself off and attacks the target.

I love that spell, I try to use it on all my necromancers.

[Aldrakan]

Grim Revenge spell from the Book of Vile Darkness? For those that haven't read the book in question, or are otherwise unfamiliar, Grim Revenge animates the target's hand which then tears itself off and attacks the target.

Slightly related, one of my favoritest stupidest third-party additions to Pathfinder is the Sever Limb combat maneuver, in which if you succeed on a CMB and if they fail a Fort save with a DC equal to the CMB roll, you chop off one of their limbs. This deals no damage because "the mind blocks out the pain".

There's also a prestige class, the Butcher, which is built around doing this to people and has several abilities revolving around applying debuffs on a successful sever, because when you've chopped off someone's sword arm at the shoulder it is a) really important that it sickens them for a couple rounds and b) something that requires extensive training to flick blood in their face rather than having anything to do with massive trauma or blood loss.

Also, although it has several abilities that acknowledge that chopping someone's leg off tends to result in blood being produced, none of this applies bleed damage...

[Chronos]

Wait, I don't play Pathfinder, but... Doesn't CMB scale a lot faster than saving throws?

And the thing with Storm of Vengeance is, it would be perfectly fine as a ninth-level spell, if that were the first level where army-killing spells showed up. It's just that there are so incredibly many other army-killers, starting as low as fourth level.

[nedz]

Well if you want useless 9th level spells, here are some:

Bigby's Crushing Hand — a grapple attack for negligible damage
Energy Drain — it's alright, but Enervation is level 4 and only half as powerful
Meteor Swarm — it's a big Fireball
Weird — mass Phantasmal Killer. Two saves at this level makes this unlikely to have any effect

[Jormengand]

Weird — mass Phantasmal Killer. Two saves at this level makes this unlikely to have any effect

It's quite good if you're a god - grab AMM: Irresistible and kill a roomful of dudes. I'm sure there are other ways to sneak free metas on your spells, too.

[Nifft]

Erase - Presumably it's for countering Symbol effects?

Or maybe dungeon graffiti?

[Jormengand]

Erase - Presumably it's for countering Symbol effects?

Or maybe dungeon graffiti?

"Hey, wizard-face, any useful information on that?"
{Silent Erase} "No, it's just a blank sheet. Weird that they should have left it behind, but no use worrying..."

[Nifft]

"Hey, wizard-face, any useful information on that?"
{Silent Erase} "No, it's just a blank sheet. Weird that they should have left it behind, but no use worrying..."

The great Wizard-Face Waldo forever after wondered, how did a note from the DM fall into the game-world in the first place?

[nedz]

It's quite good if you're a god - grab AMM: Irresistible and kill a roomful of dudes. I'm sure there are other ways to sneak free metas on your spells, too.

But surely that's a function of AMM: Irresistible ?

[Socratov]

I love that spell, I try to use it on all my necromancers.

And then tell the target to "stop beating himself"

[Jormengand]

The great Wizard-Face Waldo forever after wondered, how did a note from the DM fall into the game-world in the first place?

One day, he would find out. He wouldn't like the answer. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18427677&postcount=15)


But surely that's a function of AMM: Irresistible ?

3 is a useless number because 3*5 is a function of 5. *Nods*.

[Aldrakan]

Wait, I don't play Pathfinder, but... Doesn't CMB scale a lot faster than saving throws?


Yep! CMB is often at least as good as your attack bonus. (It's BAB+Str bonus+a size bonus/penalty if applicable+anything that boosts that maneuver+almost anything else that improves your attack rolls, in this case including weapon bonuses). It's kind of amazing anyone gets through the day with their limbs still attached.

Despite theoretically being quite powerful I've never seen a build involving it anywhere, presumably because no one wants to play a game where they end up as mysteriously unharmed quadruple amputees after their enemies also realize that you can pop limbs off with a quick tug.

[Arbane]

(Talkin' bout my Regeneration)

Yeah, I suppose it's a story spell, but it's weird that there's a cure for a condition that essentially doesn't exist.

Even more weirdly, it's higher level than Raise Dead. It is easier to bring someone back from the dead than from handlessness.

[ExLibrisMortis]

(Talkin' bout my Regeneration)
Even more weirdly, it's higher level than Raise Dead. It is easier to bring someone back from the dead than from handlessness.
It's probably possible to use animate dead to create an undead hand, then attach the hand to your arm (pick the de-handed one to avoid extra creepiness), and go on with your life. Undead you create are under your nonmagical control, so you still dictate your hand's actions. Make it carry something you need often, but that doesn't require real-time control (metamagic rods are fine, swords probably not so much).

It's still easier than regrowing the hand. Regrowths are hard.

[Nifft]

It's probably possible to use animate dead to create an undead hand, then attach the hand to your arm (pick the de-handed one to avoid extra creepiness), and go on with your life. Undead you create are under your nonmagical control, so you still dictate your hand's actions.

This is now my headcanon for Dr. Strangelove.

[Pex]

Otto's Irresistible Dance is 8th level because it takes an opponent out of a fight with no saving throw. Pathfinder nerfed it by giving a saving throw while keeping it 8th level, but even if you make the save you're out of the fight for one round which is a big deal in itself. Maybe 8th level is too high a level but not by much.

[Sagetim]

"Hey, wizard-face, any useful information on that?"
{Silent Erase} "No, it's just a blank sheet. Weird that they should have left it behind, but no use worrying..."

And so none could find Jormengand's porn collection....


Anyway, it's been said already that the article is talking about old editions of dnd. But the picture at the top of the article seems to me like it was a dead giveaway that the article was talking about older editions of dnd. And the second giveaway is when they talk about magic-users. For those who haven't cracked open ye olde player's handbook (either because it was printed before you were born, or you just don't care, etc) Magic-users (including the hyphen) was what they called wizards. Because wizard was a title that came at a specific level as you leveled up in magic user. Yeah...first edition was quirky like that. Monks, druids, and some others also got titles as they leveled up in their particular classes, but...*retrieves and cracks open a copy of the first edition ADND player's handbook* Magic-Users started as 'Prestiditigators' at first level, at second they got to call themselves 'Evokers', at third they became 'Conjurers', at Fourth, 'Theurgist', at Fifth 'Thaumaturgist', at Sixth, 'Magician', at Seventh 'Enchanter', at 8th 'Warlock', at 9th 'Sorcerer', at 10 'Necromancer', and finally at 11th level they could start calling themselves 'Wizard'. Then at 12 they get the title of 'Wizard (12th level)'. This continues up until the end, but at 16 they get the optional title of 'Mage' and at 18th the optional title of 'Archmage'. This was back when Illusionist was it's own distinct class, and before wizards could be specialists.

Hell, now that I'm looking through the book, every class got titles at every level. Level 9 fighters were 'Superhero', while their final title started at level 10 as 'lord'. Because at level 10 they got to be a lord of the realm by being that badass. And while the magic-user, fighter, and others had charts that implied they kept going on forever if you wanted to keep leveling, the monk and the assassin (both base classes, because there were no kits or prestige classes in this edition) stop at 17 and 15 respectively. Assassin's cap out at 15, with the title 'Grandfather of Assassins'. While the Monk, who has to start punching other monks to defeat them to level up after...level 7 or so, stops at level 17 as the only Grand Master of Flowers in...the world? I'm not entirely clear, but there was some really awful conservation of punching going on in first edition. There was also conservation of druid going on too, with a requirement of 'there can be only one (at a time) for the level 14 druid spot in a region. And this was early dnd, so Druids stoped at level 14. Just...no more levels for druids. You get to "The Great Druid" and you don't have any level advancement left. Oh, and there could only be 9 druids of level 12 and up in a given region. And they got posse's. Posse's that went all the way up to 'Initiates of the 9th circle' (level 11 druids. Even at level 11, some of them are stuck kowtowing to higher level druids).

Not that I blame anyone who hasn't looked at older editions of dnd for not recognizing the warning signs. If you didn't grow up with the stuff, or, in my case, didn't have enough curiosity to go poking around at stuff older than yourself, then you have no frame of reference.

What were we talking about again? Oh...right. Monks. So starting at level 7 in monk (Master) if you wanted to keep gaining levels, you had to start hunting down the next highest level monk when you had enough xp to advance, then beat them into submission. On the bright side, you know where to find them and you get to temporarily keep your new abilities for the next level. On the downsides, yes plural, you have to go and find them to fight immediately or your xp is set to the minimum for your previous level (so you go from barely 8th level with 200,500 xp down to 98,001xp, barely 7th level). Also, whoever loses the fight drops down in monk level as you trade titles with them. Also, there are only 3 level 8 monks. And from level 9 to 17, there's only one monk for each level. So if you want to punch your way to level 17 and become the grandmaster of flowers, you're going to punch everyone else down a level (at least, someone else can roll by their now de-leveled and beaten ass to beat them and take their title while they're weak). Now, since level 7's title is Master, and there can be an unlimited number of them, the worst you can do to someone with this monk advancement is to find the withered old level 17 master of flowers, kick his ass and roll him into the level 16 slot, where the next guy kicks his ass for that...and on down the line until he's reduced to a withered husk of just being level 7 and titled with 'master'. I wonder if the guy who took an arrow to the knee used to be an enlightened master monk who just got his ass rolled down a hill of level hungry monks...

[EldritchWeaver]

Also, there are only 3 level 8 monks. And from level 9 to 17, there's only one monk for each level. So if you want to punch your way to level 17 and become the grandmaster of flowers, you're going to punch everyone else down a level (at least, someone else can roll by their now de-leveled and beaten ass to beat them and take their title while they're weak).[/SPOILER]

This makes me how there could be monks of level 9 to 17 in the first place. Imagine the very first monk acquiring the XP for level 9. As he can't punch anyone to advance a level, he has to remain level 8 forever. Unless you say the first monk managed to do it some other way. But why could he do it, but no one else? Is there a god of (anti-)monks who punishes monks if there are too many of them?

[El Dorado]

Distance Distortion
Level: 5th
School: Alteration
Range: 10 yds/lvl
Duration: 2 turns/lvl
Area of Effect: 10 ft cube/level
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 5
Saving Throw: None

This spell can be cast only in an area completely surrounded or enclosed by earth, rock, mud, sand, or similar materials. The wizard must also cast a conjure elemental spell to summon an earth elemental. The elemental serves without attempting to break free when the spellcaster announces that his intent is to cast distance distortion. The spell places the earth elemental in the area of effect, and the elemental then causes the area's dimensions to be either doubled or halved for those traveling over it (spellcaster's choice). Thus, a 10 foot x 100 foot corridor could seem to be either 5 feet wide and 50 feet long or 20 feet wide and 200 feet long. When the spell duration has elapsed, the elemental returns to its own plane.

The true nature of an area affected by distance distortion is undetectable to any creature traveling along it, but the area dimly radiates magic, and a true seeing spell can reveal that an earth elemental is spread within the area.

The material needed for this spell is a small lump of soft clay.

[Jormengand]

Distance Distortion
Level: 5th
School: Alteration
Range: 10 yds/lvl
Duration: 2 turns/lvl
Area of Effect: 10 ft cube/level
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 5
Saving Throw: None

This spell can be cast only in an area completely surrounded or enclosed by earth, rock, mud, sand, or similar materials. The wizard must also cast a conjure elemental spell to summon an earth elemental. The elemental serves without attempting to break free when the spellcaster announces that his intent is to cast distance distortion. The spell places the earth elemental in the area of effect, and the elemental then causes the area's dimensions to be either doubled or halved for those traveling over it (spellcaster's choice). Thus, a 10 foot x 100 foot corridor could seem to be either 5 feet wide and 50 feet long or 20 feet wide and 200 feet long. When the spell duration has elapsed, the elemental returns to its own plane.

The true nature of an area affected by distance distortion is undetectable to any creature traveling along it, but the area dimly radiates magic, and a true seeing spell can reveal that an earth elemental is spread within the area.

The material needed for this spell is a small lump of soft clay.

So... basically, you can bait someone into fighting into a room that isn't actually as big as they think it is? Or that's bigger?

Imagine it being cast on a room twice to make it seem a quarter of its actual size, and someone casts fireball on some goblins that they think are all 10-20 feet away from the centre of the effect, but they're actually 40-80 feet away and the spell misses the lot of them! Think of the fun at parties!

[NeoPhoenix0]

Distance Distortion
Level: 5th
School: Alteration
Range: 10 yds/lvl
Duration: 2 turns/lvl
Area of Effect: 10 ft cube/level
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 5
Saving Throw: None

This spell can be cast only in an area completely surrounded or enclosed by earth, rock, mud, sand, or similar materials. The wizard must also cast a conjure elemental spell to summon an earth elemental. The elemental serves without attempting to break free when the spellcaster announces that his intent is to cast distance distortion. The spell places the earth elemental in the area of effect, and the elemental then causes the area's dimensions to be either doubled or halved for those traveling over it (spellcaster's choice). Thus, a 10 foot x 100 foot corridor could seem to be either 5 feet wide and 50 feet long or 20 feet wide and 200 feet long. When the spell duration has elapsed, the elemental returns to its own plane.

The true nature of an area affected by distance distortion is undetectable to any creature traveling along it, but the area dimly radiates magic, and a true seeing spell can reveal that an earth elemental is spread within the area.

The material needed for this spell is a small lump of soft clay.

Butbutbut, how did they do that. Last I checked corridors had doors or open ends. Unless a closed stone door counts for enclosing the space.

[Nifft]

Distance Distortion
Level: 5th
School: Alteration
Range: 10 yds/lvl
Duration: 2 turns/lvl
Area of Effect: 10 ft cube/level
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 5
Saving Throw: None

This spell can be cast only in an area completely surrounded or enclosed by earth, rock, mud, sand, or similar materials. The wizard must also cast a conjure elemental spell to summon an earth elemental. The elemental serves without attempting to break free when the spellcaster announces that his intent is to cast distance distortion. The spell places the earth elemental in the area of effect, and the elemental then causes the area's dimensions to be either doubled or halved for those traveling over it (spellcaster's choice). Thus, a 10 foot x 100 foot corridor could seem to be either 5 feet wide and 50 feet long or 20 feet wide and 200 feet long. When the spell duration has elapsed, the elemental returns to its own plane.

The true nature of an area affected by distance distortion is undetectable to any creature traveling along it, but the area dimly radiates magic, and a true seeing spell can reveal that an earth elemental is spread within the area.

The material needed for this spell is a small lump of soft clay.

IIRC that spell dates back to the era when players were expected to draw their own maps based on the DM's description of the terrain.

I think that spell existed strictly to screw over the poor guy who was nice enough to maintain the map.

[nedz]

Distance Distortion is a DM's spell. Non euclidean geometry for the win, well it confuses everyone anyway.

[Sagetim]

Butbutbut, how did they do that. Last I checked corridors had doors or open ends. Unless a closed stone door counts for enclosing the space.

Bear in mind, this was also from the days when fireballs would expand to fill all available space to reach their complete dimensions. I think their size was not the nice 20ft radius sphere that we know and love, but rather that plus some monumental upwards area, something like the 5th edition fireball spell (for a more recent point of reference). In this old edition, if you could stop a fireball from filling empty space with that fire, the fire would re-fill the space that already has fireball in it and keep doubling past for more damage. So...fit someone into a small enough room and blammo. This is where distance distortion could come into play, sizing down a room that your target is in to ultra-overkill them with fireball damage.

Of course, if they happened to have enough fire resistance that they were over 100% fire resistance, they would heal from fire damage instead of taking damage. Because resistances were percentage based, and that's what happened if you managed to stack them to go over 100%. Try it out in baldur's gate 2, it's a great way to abuse the harbringer (a two hander with a chance of on hit fireball).

[Keldrin]

Distance Distortion is a DM's spell. Non euclidean geometry for the win, well it confuses everyone anyway.

Absolutely. My first "killer DM" (my first DM as well), used spells like this all the time. Especially if he could entice us to use a fireball or lightning bolt, both of which he house ruled bounced for their full range. And did damage to us over and over.
But the that suddenly didn't work when we tried to use it in our favour
Fun times. Gah.

[nedz]

Absolutely. My first "killer DM" (my first DM as well), used spells like this all the time. Especially if he could entice us to use a fireball or lightning bolt, both of which he house ruled bounced for their full range. And did damage to us over and over.
But the that suddenly didn't work when we tried to use it in our favour
Fun times. Gah.

Bouncing lightning bolts off walls for double damage was fairly standard, Fireballs - not so much.

I did come across several houserules with various DMs about lightning bolt, but those tricks only worked the once. I once had my lightning bolt "Bounce back along it's ionisation path" rather than the more usual reflection path. Another one was "The ionisation of it's path increases the range by 10'". Come to think of it, these were the same DM :smallsigh:

[Keldrin]

Yeah, we argued to no avail about the actual spell descriptions. He just made **** up to fry us. Over and over.

[The Fury]

Wait, I don't play Pathfinder, but... Doesn't CMB scale a lot faster than saving throws?


CMB is based on Base Attack Bonus. So generally, yes it does.


And then tell the target to "stop beating himself"

How about the target trying to appeal to their animated hand's sense of good will?

"You and I have been through so much!(Ow!) Remember all those (Ow!) good times we had together? And I let you hold everything!"

Never works of course. It really is a spell for adding insult to injury.

It's too bad that my favorite useless spell wasn't on the list-- Detect Floor. The somatic component is falling on your face.

[Nifft]

It's too bad that my favorite useless spell wasn't on the list-- Detect Floor. The somatic component is falling on your face.

Is that from the April Fools issue way back when?

IIRC that same issue had Detect Fire (range: touch).

[Chronos]

It's too bad that my favorite useless spell wasn't on the list-- Detect Floor. The somatic component is falling on your face.
I dunno, with the shenanigans I've seen people pull with Shadow Conjuration, that might actually be useful.

[Gale]

I was looking around for spells for my Druid the other day and found this gem.


Book: Masters of the Wild: A Guidebook to Barbarians, Druids, and Rangers (3.0)
School: Transmutation
Level: Druid 0,
Components: V, DF,
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft.+ 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One normal plant or plant creature
Duration: 1 day
Saving Throw: Reflex negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

If the target fails its Reflex save, it takes 1 point of damage when the spell is cast and another every hour while it is in effect.
Hardness is ignored for damage from darkseed.
It would take weeks to kill a large tree with successive applications of this spell, but a small plant would die in a matter of hours.
Darkseed does not affect plant creatures with Wisdom and Charisma scores.


There are several obvious weaknesses of spell from it only dealing 1 point of damage per hour to it specifying that it works on plant creatures only to clarify that it doesn't affect any whom possess a wisdom or charisma score, limiting the amount of plant-based creatures one can affect with it to about zero. I'm not even sure why a nature-loving class like the Druid would want to kill a plant to begin with. Weird things happen in D&D all the time, but I can't imagine a scenario where an ordinary plant is the obstacle and this spell is the best solution to overcoming it.

To be fair though, multiple applications of the spell can deal a considerable amount of damage in a 24 hour time period. According to the DMG a typical tree has 150 HP. Six applications of the spell deal a total of 144 damage to it, only 6 points short of killing it or a single sword swing. Still, there are likely better ways of dealing with non-sentient plant life even at low-levels. I have no idea what potential use this spell has. Maybe the spell was created to allow Druids to take revenge on their annoying neighbors by poisoning their favorite rose bush or something.

[Kurald Galain]

Is that from the April Fools issue way back when?

I think so. I believe it also had such gems as Change Elf, Charm Potted Plant, and Trap The Sole (which is the prereq for casting Limited Dish, of course...)

[Telok]

I was looking around for spells for my Druid the other day and found this gem.

Darkseed

Well in D&D 'plant' has a very wide definition that includes fungi, lichen, and other stuff. From here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#slimesMoldsAndFungi) we get this
For purposes of spells and other special effects, all slimes, molds, and fungi are treated as plants.

So in theory it could be useful, if you aren't in any hurry.