Making an epic dragon fight!

[MissJynx]

OK! So the party I DM for is about to encounter an infamous black female dragon called Talabriina Plaguemaiden. I want to make her very epic, any suggestions?
Her lair is situated under a city situated on a island surrounded by water, so the fight will most likely destroy part of it.

Talabriina is an "old" dragon, so she's already pretty strong, but the party includes 5 very strong 8 lvl players, and i want them to sweat a little bit.

I need ideas for spells, armor, weapons for her to use, in both "human" and dragon form.

Thanks a lot! :smallbiggrin:

[Thealtruistorc]

If there is one thing that I have learned about dragons, it is that their preparations are what make the battle.

Despite what fantasy authors may imply, a solo dragon is not a considerable threat to a group of appropriately-leveled PCs. In strict combat, they will overwhelm her before she has a chance to make more than one attack. It is in this that the true strength of a dragon is revealed: they are schemers.

Judging by her title, The lovely Ms. Talabriina is a black dragon who loves poison and disease. That is definitely something that you can work with (made even better by the fact that she lives in a city). Have her over time spike various water and food sources with contagions, strategically causing potential threats to fall ill. This will result in several diseases that are spread throughout the city at any given time, magically altered to suit their matron's whims. If you want to be really evil, disguise her as a bartender earlier on and serve the party poisonous drinks.

When the PCs start to close in, it is then that she plays her trump card. Have her activate an incantation that causes those killed by her diseases to spring from the grave as wights or a similar type of undead, their claws carrying the plague that killed them. A horde of wights is something that will definitely leave the PCs quaking in their britches.

But that isn't all. At this level, action control is crucial, and very few things do it better than good ol' stinking cloud. Have Talabriina fight from a safe distance, dropping one or two (and possibly a cloudkill) on your intrepid heroes as they fight off the wights. The PCs will be nearly helpless to fight back as the undead abominations close in upon them, forcing some defensive play. When the PCs are afraid to charge forward, bring the fight to them, smashing the ceilings above them so that they wind up buried underneath. Possibly employ some summons (with poisoned weapons, obviously) to tear up what's left of them.

The final icing on the cake will be domination effects. Have the mayor or a similarly powerful individual under her control, and use the town guard and the populace against the party. Have a lunatic set fire to ships off the island, start posting guards outside anywhere with food or water. Eventually they will make a reckless move, and when they do you'll be ready with an army. When the party has been crippled in every possible way, pick them off one by one, separating them from their group (darkness works well for this) and breaking them when they are alone (remember: if there is a cleric, he dies first).

[RolandDeschain]

I read "Plaguemaiden" and immediately thought of Mass Contagion. Would make a nice breath-weapon or aura, and by "nice" I don't mean nice :smallbiggrin:

[ComaVision]

How strong is the level 8 party that an Old Black Dragon wouldn't destroy them?

[DrKerosene]

Am I wrong, or is an "Old" Black Dragon CR 16? With 25 HD (+32 to attack roles), a DC 27 Breath Weapon, and casting as a 7th level character? Well, I guess the casting evens out with the party level, but the attack routine will probably drop the tank(s) in a round.

I generally like what Thealtruistorc said, I would generally suggest giving Talabriina a few "stages", like in this article on Boss Fights by the Angry DM (http://angrydm.com/2010/04/the-dd-boss-fight-part-1/). Which would allow the party a few breaks to recuperate. Good luck with the party.

[Brova]

Dragons are under CR-ed by like 4 already. And you're throwing down one that is twice the level of the party. The party is very, very, very likely to simply die.

[FocusWolf413]

Black dragons can act freely under water. You should make the party fight her in contaminated water that's no less than 3 feet deep.

[Magesmiley]

A trio of low-level spells that I find greatly increases the difficulty of many dragon battles are mage armor, shield, and cat's grace. Combined, they boost the dragon's AC by 10. Dragons are smart, so they typically have warnings that the players are nearby and can usually get some spells off in advance. This combo is well worth 2 1st level and 1 2nd level spell selections.

I think you probably want her fighting the PCs in the city and not her lair. She can make greater use of her mobility. That and the imagery of the dragon swooping down through the ruined buildings and raining acid is too good to ignore.

Make use of her mobility - flying and water are both terrains that can give the players fits. If the dragon never lands, the melee fighters can't hurt her. Yes the arcane casters blast away and the archers can shoot too, but if she can take out the most devastating ranged PCs first, she can rain acid attacks on the rest at her leisure.

Play the dragon smart. Use every dirty trick and tactic you can come up with. Base her attacks on the sorts of knowledge that most players have.

For example, if she can see that she is facing 3 heavily armored characters, 1 lightly armored, and 1 unarmored opponent, it is reasonable for her to gear her attacks towards those they are most effective against. Heavily armored targets are often most effectively fought with breath weapons, as they usually have poor reflex saves. Similarly, if she is going to land and mix it up in melee, doing so amongst the most poorly armored targets is usually the most effective (and devastating).

Focus her attention on specific targets and take out the ones that yield the best reward for work first. Yes, this means the arcane caster is likely to get pounded horribly. That's the tradeoff for arcane power - poor defenses. Don't rotate targets (but hey if she can line up secondary targets with her breath be sure to do so). Be merciless, just a dragon would be.

Have a spot prepared that she can withdraw to and recover, preferably with some sort of magic items she can use to quickly recover. And make sure she withdraws before it is too late.

Speaking of magic items, consider what ones the dragon has in her hoard. And how best she can use them.

You mentioned a city. It might be reasonable for her to have left traps scattered around. Hidden traps on a battlefield are a reasonable defense. Especially if she knows where they are and actively baits the PCs to run into the trap. For example: landing on the far side of the concealed 50' deep pit from where the PCs are and actively insulting them or breathing on them is sure to get many of the PCs charging across the battlefield to attack.

Size. Depending on her size, it might be practical for her to swoop down and snatch one or more of the PCs. Then fly out over the deep part of the water and drop the poor PC. Water and heavy armor doesn't mix too well in particular, but many others skimp on their swimming skills.

Her cavern should have plenty of room to fly. And also at least one access point to the lake. 3-4 access points to the lake would be better, as it gives her the option of leaving the lair and returning via different routes. Another nasty trap to include in her lair might be a weak wall to the lake that a good burst of acid would open up (drowning the lair in water).

Above all, play the dragon as smart as you can manage. They have high intelligences. Make sure your play reflects that.

[Hiro Quester]

Yes. Use the water. Drawing the party members into a battle flying over and swimming under the (contaminated) water will be having the battle in an arena In which she has a tactical advantage.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

A trio of low-level spells that I find greatly increases the difficulty of many dragon battles are mage armor, shield, and cat's grace. Combined, they boost the dragon's AC by 10. Dragons are smart, so they typically have warnings that the players are nearby and can usually get some spells off in advance. This combo is well worth 2 1st level and 1 2nd level spell selections.
I'd recommend switching out Cat's Grace for Scintillating Scales. It's also second level, and this means her overall AC will be two points lower (assuming you can only spare the single 2nd-level spell), but it comes at the great boon of switching the dragon's generally-impressive natural armor bonus into a deflection bonus, meaning it will apply to touch attacks of all kinds and seriously hamper the usual best methods of fighting dragons.

Of course, I'd also recommend not throwing a CR 16 monster at a level 8 party, but hey, you know what your group can handle better than I do.

[WhamBamSam]

How strong is the level 8 party that an Old Black Dragon wouldn't destroy them?
Am I wrong, or is an "Old" Black Dragon CR 16? With 25 HD (+32 to attack roles), a DC 27 Breath Weapon, and casting as a 7th level character? Well, I guess the casting evens out with the party level, but the attack routine will probably drop the tank(s) in a round.
Dragons are under CR-ed by like 4 already. And you're throwing down one that is twice the level of the party. The party is very, very, very likely to simply die.This. Also, an Old Black Dragon has SR 24, so even if the party Wizard tries to cheese his way through with Shivering Touch (which every dragon should have some means of blocking), he'll fail ~75% of the time. Every other spell that allows SR will similarly fail to overcome it, and even if he spends precious 4th level slots on Assay Spell Resistance, he'll only bring the failure rate down to around a 1/4 chance. Similarly, it will pass just about every save the party throws at it

This is a TPK waiting to happen. I'd advise that you have the old dragon be away on other business. Maybe have the party fight one of her Young Adult offspring instead, or an Adult lieutenant of some kind if you really think you need something stronger to deal with your party. Most of the advice from this thread looks like it'll still hold up for a slightly younger dragon.

[martixy]

Dragons are under CR-ed by like 4 already. And you're throwing down one that is twice the level of the party. The party is very, very, very likely to simply die.

I really don't think that's the case. At least in splat-book rich world that is 3.5 now. Maybe in Core only I'd agree.
Though I would let them have L9 before they go at her.

Sadly I can't really add more than Thealtruistorc. He offered a great scenario I vote for with both arms.

[Brova]

I really don't think that's the case. At least in splat-book rich world that is 3.5 now. Maybe in Core only I'd agree.

No, that's literally how dragon CRs are calculated. A dragon is CR-ed at the point where it's a 50/50 fight for the party. By the CR guidelines, that's a CR+4 encounter. This isn't like Lantern Archons, or incorporeal undead, or That Damn Crab, where they are randomly hardcore. It's just the way things are "supposed" to be.

Now, shivering touch is a thing, but there are workarounds for that. For example, kill the Wizard to death.

[martixy]

No, that's literally how dragon CRs are calculated. A dragon is CR-ed at the point where it's a 50/50 fight for the party. By the CR guidelines, that's a CR+4 encounter. This isn't like Lantern Archons, or incorporeal undead, or That Damn Crab, where they are randomly hardcore. It's just the way things are "supposed" to be.

Now, shivering touch is a thing, but there are workarounds for that. For example, kill the Wizard to death.

Everyone has different opinions on that, some say wizard, some say cleric.

What about the sneaky factotum with darkstalker, shivering touch, cunning breach and true strike incoming from the back?

There are ways... there always are.

In encounters like this, the outcome is decided before the battle begins.

[Brova]

What about the sneaky factotum with darkstalker, shivering touch, cunning breach and true strike incoming from the back?

The dragon can fly and has an AoE ranged attack. And that's an 11th level tactic. And it assumes you have surprise on your side.

[martixy]

The dragon can fly and has an AoE ranged attack. And that's an 11th level tactic. And it assumes you have surprise on your side.

But does he know he needs to do so?

See, this is not a perfect-information game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_information#Game_theory).

This is why intelligence is so crucial.
As I said... well Sun Tzu said: at that point you can't afford to wing it, you've either already won or already lost.

Also, you seem to not realize how pointless these "what-ifs" are. What's important is that they exist.

[Brova]

Also, you seem to not realize how pointless these "what-ifs" are. What's important is that they exist.

I am super confused. Are you saying that it doesn't matter how effective the Factotum is, because it exists? Because that doesn't seem like a particularly coherent position.

[Balmas]

You might consider watching the Circle Strafe episode of Counter Monkey, as it has some really great DM tips for Dragon adventures. Allow me to sum up some important points.

Dragons are smart, old, and prepared. Fighting a dragon should be a pants-crappingly terrifying experience, because they will fight on a terrain that favors them. That means in the air, away from their lair. Don't land! Why the hell would a dragon go toe to toe with Conan the barbarian when it's safer to just be a jerk and fly around them, breath weaponing whenever they can?

Again, Dragons are smart. If there are three people with swords, one with a bow, and one casting magic, then the dragon's gonna go for the ones that are dangerous. Target the ranger and wizard, keep them on the ground and dying. The barbarian and fighter aren't going to be doing anything so long as you're in the air and they aren't. If a party is not prepared, murder them at your discretion.

[ExLibrisMortis]

As a 7th-level caster, the dragon can throw third-level spells, including dispel magic. Depending on the party's tactics, they may find a successful dispel magic extremely annoying. Don't forget to give the dragon Practiced Spellcaster, to take its caster level up to 11, making it quite likely to succeed.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This post I made (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?348374-Optimizing-excercise-Let-s-optimize-a-Dragon#11), along with this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?348374-Optimizing-excercise-Let-s-optimize-a-Dragon#26) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?348374-Optimizing-excercise-Let-s-optimize-a-Dragon#28) from the same thread. That last one is specifically a black dragon lair.

[WhamBamSam]

Everyone has different opinions on that, some say wizard, some say cleric.

What about the sneaky factotum with darkstalker, shivering touch, cunning breach and true strike incoming from the back?

There are ways... there always are.

In encounters like this, the outcome is decided before the battle begins.A dragon of at least 21 HD can be straight up immune to Shivering Touch and three other spells it thinks would be convenient to have just not work on it on a given day for two feats (Shape Soulmeld (Spellward Shirt)+Open Heart Chakra). Cunning Breach could conceivably get through, since Spell Immunity is effectively infinite SR, but since the party is level 8, that's not going to be a concern here. The best they can hope for, even for beating the dragon's regular SR, is Assay Spell Resistance and every CL booster they can get their hands on. They'll still have a pretty noteworthy failure rate, and if the dragon uses any defense against touch attacks (Scintilating Scales, some ToB counter, etc) that still might not work. More to the point, it's not exactly certain that you could stealth your way past a CR+8 dragon's spot/listen check, even with a stealth-focused Factotum.

If the dragon is played remotely intelligently, it will be a TPK. If 8th level PCs kill an Old Black Dragon, it's because the DM, let them, not because they were especially clever or well optimized. Even if they are those things, they still should die in that lopsided a fight.


As a 7th-level caster, the dragon can throw third-level spells, including dispel magic. Depending on the party's tactics, they may find a successful dispel magic extremely annoying. Don't forget to give the dragon Practiced Spellcaster, to take its caster level up to 11, making it quite likely to succeed.Dispel Magic caps at CL 10. There are also things like a Domain Draft/Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment) for the Inquisition Domain, which would be worth an additional +4, if you want stuff dispelled.

[MissJynx]

Love the ideas and settings! actually works really well with everything i already planned! Thanks :smallbiggrin:
Also, the party is made up with 5 extremely strong characters, ESPECIALLY the undead monk.

I want this fight to be challenging, even for him, who actually made a ten headed hydra explode, IN ONE TURN, all by himself, in our last session.

I forgot more details, just in case:smallwink:

We have a green half-dragon crusader, a human barb-berserker-warshaper, human bard, the OP undead monk, a human ninja and a NPC Grappler goo girl (which has a deadly grapple and managed to grapple an adult white dragon all by herself once), going against miss Talabriina.

[ComaVision]

Love the idea and setting! it actually works really well with everything i already planned! Thanks :smallbiggrin:

Concerns alleviated: 0

[MissJynx]

To be fair, the party CHOSE to pursue and hunt down the infamous beast, even thought they WERE warned by NPCs that Talabriina is a force the be feared.
You should have seen the smile on the battle-itching barb's face and the stars in his eyes when the party were told her legend.

They know what could be the outcome of this fight, and are going willingly.

I just want this battle to make an epic tale, if they were to fall :smallsmile:

[WhamBamSam]

Love the ideas and settings! actually works really well with everything i already planned! Thanks :smallbiggrin:
Also, the party is made up with 5 extremely strong characters, ESPECIALLY the undead monk.

I want this fight to be challenging, even for him, who actually made a ten headed hydra explode, IN ONE TURN, all by himself, in our last session.

I forgot more details, just in case:smallwink:

We have a green half-dragon crusader, a human barb-berserker-warshaper, human bard, the OP undead monk, a human ninja and a NPC Grappler goo girl (which has a deadly grapple and managed to grapple an adult white dragon all by herself once), going against miss Talabriina.Yeah... That party should get TPKed against an Old Black Dragon. Hell, they ought to have trouble just fighting a 7th level Sorcerer, without stapling it to a 25HD Huge dragon. Hopefully they've at least got some sort of flight from items, but even then, if you play the dragon remotely intelligently, you'll kill them all.

How, if I may ask, is the monk OP? Does he have wealth well above WBL? Does his undeath come from some powerful template that he got for free? Is it just that he can do a lot of damage if he gets to full attack something (that would explain dropping the hydra, except for somehow overcoming its regeneration)?

[Thealtruistorc]

We have a green half-dragon crusader, a human barb-berserker-warshaper, human bard, the OP undead monk, a human ninja and a NPC Grappler goo girl (which has a deadly grapple and managed to grapple an adult white dragon all by herself once), going against miss Talabriina.

This is a party with no cleric and whose primary threat is an undead monstrosity...You poison them and there is no way they get off the island alive.

If this group is really such a threat to you (and your grappler was able actually touch a white dragon), your encounter design raises some questions. The key to breaking them will be placing the fight on your terms, not theirs. Turn the townspeople against them (they have an undead with a violent streak, that should not be hard), and once that is done begin to slowly deplete their resources through continual minion strikes. Set traps everywhere and order your mooks to steal equipment whenever possible. When they are helpless and afraid, split the, apart and gut them one by one from places where the others cannot intervene.

Above all, never, EVER play fair.

[Enran]

You know, a lot of people say that dragons should be played up to the mental stats they actually possess and thus should never ever in all of history play fair, but you know the one thing I recognize far more strongly in most dragons than super duper mental abilities? Pride. So really, I'd have the battle progress in three stages, to make things both more consistent with how dragons are presented and more entertaining for the players. Start with the things the dragon uses to scare the cheap weaklings that would be a waste to deal with off... You know, the easily-felled Wights, the minions, the sort of stuff the dragon doesn't even really need to be present for the players to deal with. Then, when they've proved themselves worthy of her attention, have her fight them. Not necessarily fairly, and almost certainly not allowing them to have such a numbers advantage, but also actual combat, as opposed to circle-strafing and dropping cheap gas cloud spells and such. She won't do this to near-death or anywhere close to it, but only up to the point where she figures out that the players are beyond her and saving her life is more important than holding up her pride in a straight fight. (This could be when she gets to half HP, or it could be before she loses a single HP if the players one-shot her allies and totally nullify her first-round actions; what matters is that she believably sees the players as not being something to risk her life killing.) After that point, review the rest of the thread for the all the dirtiest, cheapest, and most unfair tactics to rely on to utterly obliterate the hopelessly out-CRed party.