Ironsoul Forgemaster with artificer levels?

[Jarmen4u]

Hey all, I'm working on a level 15 build for Ironsoul Forgemaster, and I was considering taking a level or more in artificer, just to get the ability to fake spells for item crafting. Is this wise? What are the alternatives? I'm thinking of taking incarnate for the other levels.

[ComaVision]

It doesn't sound bad. Obviously, a straight artificer would be more powerful but that doesn't mean this is bad. Sounds like a dwarf that really puts his soul into his craftsmanship :smallbiggrin:

[Forrestfire]

The artificer can only fake spells of a caster level equal to his artificer level + 2, so it's probably not a great choice. You can, if you have UMD, pick up a minor schema of concurrent infusions, which will allow you to make a temporary 1-charge wand of any spell of 4th level or lower once per day. Since you can use those spells in item crafting, it should cover a lot of them, at least. It costs 12,800gp.

[Red Fel]

Hey all, I'm working on a level 15 build for Ironsoul Forgemaster, and I was considering taking a level or more in artificer, just to get the ability to fake spells for item crafting. Is this wise? What are the alternatives? I'm thinking of taking incarnate for the other levels.

Hello, friend. Have you read my handbook? (Shameless plug. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?344798-Soul-and-Steel-A-Guide-to-the-Ironsoul-Forgemaster-%28WIP-PEACH%29)) I hope it is helpful to you.

I actually go into the possibility of dipping multiple caster classes as an option to get prerequisite spells, although I didn't go into Artificer because, frankly, it's a better crafting class than IF. My position was that if you wanted to play an Artificer crafter, play an Artificer and stop muddling around in my Incarnum.

That said, here's the thing. An Artificer's Item Creation ability lets you UMD to imitate having a prerequisite spell for crafting purposes. That's actually fantastic, and totally works with the IF's crafting ability. And while Forrestfire correctly notes that your crafting CL is Artificer level +2, Ironsoul Forgemaster gives you your IF levels times three, and explicitly stacks with others. So even with only one level of Artificer, you're adding +3 to your crafting CL, which explodes with your IF levels.

Keep in mind that the IF's crafting abilities apply only to weapons and armor. So no rings or necklaces or wondrous items. Keep in mind also that you can lean on the party Wizard or Cleric, or a nearby Cleric of Moradin (according to fluff, they give discounts to IFs!) to supply you with crafting spells. That said, if you make a weapon, a shield, and/or armor, those Artificer levels can certainly let you do it yourself.

[Jarmen4u]

Hello, friend. Have you read my handbook? (Shameless plug. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?344798-Soul-and-Steel-A-Guide-to-the-Ironsoul-Forgemaster-%28WIP-PEACH%29)) I hope it is helpful to you.

I actually go into the possibility of dipping multiple caster classes as an option to get prerequisite spells, although I didn't go into Artificer because, frankly, it's a better crafting class than IF. My position was that if you wanted to play an Artificer crafter, play an Artificer and stop muddling around in my Incarnum.

That said, here's the thing. An Artificer's Item Creation ability lets you UMD to imitate having a prerequisite spell for crafting purposes. That's actually fantastic, and totally works with the IF's crafting ability. And while Forrestfire correctly notes that your crafting CL is Artificer level +2, Ironsoul Forgemaster gives you your IF levels times three, and explicitly stacks with others. So even with only one level of Artificer, you're adding +3 to your crafting CL, which explodes with your IF levels.

Keep in mind that the IF's crafting abilities apply only to weapons and armor. So no rings or necklaces or wondrous items. Keep in mind also that you can lean on the party Wizard or Cleric, or a nearby Cleric of Moradin (according to fluff, they give discounts to IFs!) to supply you with crafting spells. That said, if you make a weapon, a shield, and/or armor, those Artificer levels can certainly let you do it yourself.

I'm glad you answered, because I actually tripped over your guide once and decided I wanted to try the class. (Also Hi, big fan :smallbiggrin:) For some reason, I was thinking that you needed to replicate spells to add certain enchantments to weapons/armor. Are there any abilities like that, or am I just crazy?

Also, since you're here, what do you think would with best with 10 levels of IF at 15th level? I wanted to take 4/5 levels of incarnate to get more essentia and chakras, but maybe there's something else better suited for the melee tanky build I'm looking for. (I was looking at the first build option on your guide that says it turns on at 14th level, but that doesn't include the two levels of crusader, so I'm hesitant to take that route.)

[Red Fel]

I'm glad you answered, because I actually tripped over your guide once and decided I wanted to try the class. (Also Hi, big fan :smallbiggrin:) For some reason, I was thinking that you needed to replicate spells to add certain enchantments to weapons/armor. Are there any abilities like that, or am I just crazy?

Well, here's the thing. Adding a numerical enhancement bonus doesn't require spell knowledge; you just need a crafting CL equal to three times the enhancement bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingMagicArmor). That's easy. Adding an enhancement effect, such as the Flaming (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#flaming) enhancement, requires proper spell knowledge. Generally, this means having the spell prepared, if you're a prepared caster, or known, if you're a spontaneous caster.

However, the Artificer's Item Creation class feature gives you an advantage, just as you'd hoped.


An artificer can create a magic item even if he does not have access to the spells that are prerequisites for the item. The artificer must make a successful Use Magic Device check (DC 20 + caster level) to emulate each spell normally required to create the item. Thus, to make a 1st-level wand of magic missile, an artificer would need a Use Magic Device check result of 21 or higher. To create a bottle of air (caster level 7th), he would need a check result of 27 or higher to emulate the water breathing prerequisite.
In other words, even though you can't actually replicate the spell as a cast spell, you can use it to craft with a UMD check. Similarly, a Warlock with the Imbue Item class feature (level 12) can create items, assuming he has the appropriate feat, despite lacking the spell.


Also, since you're here, what do you think would with best with 10 levels of IF at 15th level? I wanted to take 4/5 levels of incarnate to get more essentia and chakras, but maybe there's something else better suited for the melee tanky build I'm looking for. (I was looking at the first build option on your guide that says it turns on at 14th level, but that doesn't include the two levels of crusader, so I'm hesitant to take that route.)

Well, that's really up to you. Crusader doesn't take a lot to be effective at tanking; a few choice maneuvers and two solid stances form the core of a brutal build. Thicket of Blades is a third-level maneuver, which means that you need an IL of 5 to take it. If you go Incarnate 5/ IF 1/ Crusader 2, you can grab it as your second stance. While you're at it, grab Defensive Rebuke. Then, if you have feats to spare, grab Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike. Put together, here's what happens: If anything moves near you, AoO. If anything hits you, AoO. If anything you hit with Defensive Rebuke doesn't hit you, AoO. In short, you're the Oprah of AoOs. ("You get an AoO! You get an AoO! Everybody gets an AoO!") That gives you eight levels, including one of IF levels, and from there you can dive right into IF. You clear IF by 17, and can go where you like from there.

The reference to 14th level assumes that you enter IF at level 5 (as in, only 3 levels of Incarnate, 2 Crusader). That's because you get your Weapon Bond ability at IF 9, which is Inc 3/ Crus 2/ IF 9 (total 14th level). You can put it off if you want the extra binds. Obviously, this throws the maneuver progression off.

[Jarmen4u]

Well, here's the thing. Adding a numerical enhancement bonus doesn't require spell knowledge; you just need a crafting CL equal to three times the enhancement bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingMagicArmor). That's easy. Adding an enhancement effect, such as the Flaming (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#flaming) enhancement, requires proper spell knowledge. Generally, this means having the spell prepared, if you're a prepared caster, or known, if you're a spontaneous caster.

However, the Artificer's Item Creation class feature gives you an advantage, just as you'd hoped.


In other words, even though you can't actually replicate the spell as a cast spell, you can use it to craft with a UMD check. Similarly, a Warlock with the Imbue Item class feature (level 12) can create items, assuming he has the appropriate feat, despite lacking the spell.



Well, that's really up to you. Crusader doesn't take a lot to be effective at tanking; a few choice maneuvers and two solid stances form the core of a brutal build. Thicket of Blades is a third-level maneuver, which means that you need an IL of 5 to take it. If you go Incarnate 5/ IF 1/ Crusader 2, you can grab it as your second stance. While you're at it, grab Defensive Rebuke. Then, if you have feats to spare, grab Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike. Put together, here's what happens: If anything moves near you, AoO. If anything hits you, AoO. If anything you hit with Defensive Rebuke doesn't hit you, AoO. In short, you're the Oprah of AoOs. ("You get an AoO! You get an AoO! Everybody gets an AoO!") That gives you eight levels, including one of IF levels, and from there you can dive right into IF. You clear IF by 17, and can go where you like from there.

The reference to 14th level assumes that you enter IF at level 5 (as in, only 3 levels of Incarnate, 2 Crusader). That's because you get your Weapon Bond ability at IF 9, which is Inc 3/ Crus 2/ IF 9 (total 14th level). You can put it off if you want the extra binds. Obviously, this throws the maneuver progression off.

That AoO build sounds really great, unfortunately a person in our party already has a fighter-type character that capitalizes on AoOs. What other party role would you suggest that uses mostly Incarnate (or maybe not if it's really not a good choice)? For the record, I know one other person is a Transmutator Wiz/Cleric, and I'm not sure what the other two are.

EDIT: The DM seems pretty interested in my IF build, as he thinks it would be an interesting theme to play with, something a la Iron Man (self built super suit/weapons, etc). Due to his comments I will probably make this dwarf especially Stark-esk.

[Red Fel]

That AoO build sounds really great, unfortunately a person in our party already has a fighter-type character that capitalizes on AoOs. What other party role would you suggest that uses mostly Incarnate (or maybe not if it's really not a good choice)? For the record, I know one other person is a Transmutator Wiz/Cleric, and I'm not sure what the other two are.

EDIT: The DM seems pretty interested in my IF build, as he thinks it would be an interesting theme to play with, something a la Iron Man (self built super suit/weapons, etc). Due to his comments I will probably make this dwarf especially Stark-esk.

If your goal is to be a Stark-esque utility guy, you might actually consider going Totemist instead of Incarnate. Totemist gives superior BAB, and the number of melds shaped/bound; it sacrifices essentia, and gets its binds later, but it gains the Totem chakra, which is great. Additionally, your Totemist melds are going to be very versatile; Girallon Arms can give you extra claw attacks, Urskan Greaves can boost your charging damage; Blink Shirt gives you Dimension Door (and IF 10 lets you bind it to Heart for Blink).

Now, that said, if we're going with Incarnate, there's still plenty you can do. The advantage of Incarnum is that (1) if you take a single level of a class, you have access to all of its soulmelds, so (2) you can change out your toolbox from one day to the next. As a result, you can pretty much occupy whatever role you want. I included in my handbook a list of useful soulmelds and why you might want them. For example, if you decide to be a backup tank one day, grab the Adamant Pauldrons, Astral Vambraces, Fellmist Robe, and Crystal Helm. If you want to be a blender, start with Bluesteel Bracers, bind the Diadem of Purelight, maybe even Lightning Gauntlets. Want your friends to like you? Lucky Dice. ("Hey, everyone, this round you get a bonus to saves!" "YAY!") Bind the Lammasu Mantle for more love. Want to be a ninja? Combine Enigma Helm with Airstep Sandals; you're now non-detectable and able to fly. Throw on Fellmist Robe again and you're just being cruel.

That's the thing to remember about Incarnum. Aside from Tier 1 casters, who can basically do anything, Incarnum is one of the few mechanics that lets you change your role from day to day. If you don't like how a layout works for you, switch it up! Just keep in mind that binding a soulmeld to a chakra prevents you from using magic items in that slot, unless you take a feat; shaping one, however, is totally fine. So be sure you don't bind when you're using your weapon, shield, and armor, (unless you take the feat) but any other slot is fair game.

Keep in mind also that, in order for the IF to function, your DM has to give you downtime to craft. No downtime and you're basically a slightly beefier Incarnate with an inferior meldshaper progression.

[Jarmen4u]

Additionally, your Totemist melds are going to be very versatile...

The advantage of Incarnum is that (1) if you take a single level of a class, you have access to all of its soulmelds, so (2) you can change out your toolbox from one day to the next.

Keep in mind also that, in order for the IF to function, your DM has to give you downtime to craft. No downtime and you're basically a slightly beefier Incarnate with an inferior meldshaper progression.

So firstly, because I don't know how the classes melds interact, could I take a single level in one or the other and get full access to their melds? For example, take two levels in Totemist to get the Totem chakra, and then take the other three/four in Incarnate to get the other chakras, jumping into IF after that? (if I did that, I'd only get 9 out of 10 IF levels right away, having to wait until we levelled up to 16th to get the heart chakra.)

[Red Fel]

So firstly, because I don't know how the classes melds interact, could I take a single level in one or the other and get full access to their melds? For example, take two levels in Totemist to get the Totem chakra, and then take the other three/four in Incarnate to get the other chakras, jumping into IF after that? (if I did that, I'd only get 9 out of 10 IF levels right away, having to wait until we levelled up to 16th to get the heart chakra.)

Well, yes, but here's a primer anyway.

First, melds known. That's easy. A one-level dip into any meldshaper class allows you to shape any melds that class knows, forever, that knowledge is yours. What you can do with them, well... read on.

Second, meldshaping base class interactions. An illustration. Let's say you took 4 levels of Incarnate, and 2 levels of Totemist. You could shape Totemist soulmelds as a Totemist 2, or Incarnate soulmelds as an Incarnate 4 - your meldshaper levels are calculated independently for each class. Additionally, if memory serves, chakra bind points are unique to their classes; although Incarnate 2 unlocks crown binds, and Incarnate 4 unlocks hand and feet binds, you can only bind Incarnate melds there, not Totemist melds.

Third, meldshaping progression advanced by a PrC. IF advances meldshaping - in terms of ML, number of melds, number of binds, and essentia pool - of one meldshaper class per level. That means you could alternate IF levels between Incarnate and Totemist, dedicate only a few to one and the rest to the other, or have the PrC advance only one. That said, IF gets its own progression of bind unlocks; if you need others unlocked, tough, and if they're redundant, double-tough. Plus side, as I've been lead to understand, PrC chakra binds are available to any class, even though meldshaper progression is limited to one.

So, adding it up. If you took Totemist 2 to get totem chakra, and then 3-4 levels of Incarnate to get Incarnate meldshaper progression, and then IF to advance Incarnate, you'd be in a pretty decent place. Assuming Totemist 2/ Incarnate 4/ Ironsoul Forgemaster 10 (advancing Incarnate), you'd have: Totemist: Access to all Totemist soulmelds. Totemist ML 2. Access to the Totem chakra and ability to bind Totemist melds to it. Three Totemist soulmelds shaped at a time, one bound at a time. 2 essentia to invest in Totemist soulmelds. Increased Totem chakra capacity +1. Incarnate/IF: Access to all Incarnate soulmelds. Incarnate ML 13. Ability to bind Incarnate melds to the crown, feet, and hands chakras. Seven Incarnate soulmelds shaped at a time, three bound at a time. 13 essentia to invest in Incarnate soulmelds. Increased Incarnate soulmeld capacity +1. Radiance. IF: Ability to bind Incarnate and/or Totemist melds to the arms, waist, shoulders, and heart chakras. Also, all that other cool IF stuff.
Got all that?

As an aside, if you're thinking of avoiding tanking or the Crusader class, you could consider the Warblade class, or simply avoid martial maneuvers altogether. Warblade is still quite powerful, and fun to use, and even more versatile than the Crusader; it's a great beatstick to the Crusader's beefstick. Alternatively, skipping martial maneuvers might make you less destructive in a combat sense, but it will give you greater ability to devote yourself to soulmelds, and not having to focus on IL means you can try to get into the PrC sooner.

Out of curiosity, what kind of Dwarf were you considering for the character?

[Jarmen4u]

snip

Out of curiosity, what kind of Dwarf were you considering for the character?

All of that sounds really good, and I might take a look at that.

As for the race.... :smallbiggrin:

I don't know if you saw it mentioned in other threads before, and I hesitate to mention it because I want my build to be somewhat of a surprise to the other players (at least one of which I know frequents this board), but I'm playing in an upcoming game where we start at 15th level and get +2 LA for free. (DM is expecting chaos, so we will bring it.) So my current racial build is as follows:

Earth Dwarf (+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Cha)(LA 0) + Mineral Warrior template (+2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int/Wis/Cha, DR 8/adamantine, +3 nat armor, burrow speed)(+1 LA) + Blooded One template (+2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int, Combat reflexes, +2 nat armor)(LA +1) + Dragonborn template (+2 Str, -2 Dex, Draconic Aspect: Heart)(LA 0) + Arctic template (+2 Con, -2 Cha, 1/day ray of frost)(LA 0)

All together stat-wise, it comes out to: +8 Str, -4 Dex, +12 Con, -4 Int, -2 Wis, -6 Cha. Plus all the bonus stuff, including lots of things I didn't mention.

[Red Fel]

All of that sounds really good, and I might take a look at that.

As for the race.... :smallbiggrin:

I don't know if you saw it mentioned in other threads before, and I hesitate to mention it because I want my build to be somewhat of a surprise to the other players (at least one of which I know frequents this board), but I'm playing in an upcoming game where we start at 15th level and get +2 LA for free. (DM is expecting chaos, so we will bring it.) So my current racial build is as follows:

Earth Dwarf (+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Cha)(LA 0) + Mineral Warrior template (+2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int/Wis/Cha, DR 8/adamantine, +3 nat armor, burrow speed)(+1 LA) + Blooded One template (+2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int, Combat reflexes, +2 nat armor)(LA +1) + Dragonborn template (+2 Str, -2 Dex, Draconic Aspect: Heart)(LA 0) + Arctic template (+2 Con, -2 Cha, 1/day ray of frost)(LA 0)

All together stat-wise, it comes out to: +8 Str, -4 Dex, +12 Con, -4 Int, -2 Wis, -6 Cha. Plus all the bonus stuff, including lots of things I didn't mention.

Wow. That is a beast. And the Heart aspect can be pretty useful - consider the Entangling Exhalation feat to give it a helpful rider effect.

I should also point out an interesting thing about the Mineral Warrior template. It states that you lose your fly ability, if any. It doesn't say that you can never gain fly ability. If you gain fly ability after taking the template - for example, by becoming Dragonborn - you get to keep that flight. So keep that in mind if you decide you might want wings instead.

[Jarmen4u]

Wow. That is a beast. And the Heart aspect can be pretty useful - consider the Entangling Exhalation feat to give it a helpful rider effect.

I should also point out an interesting thing about the Mineral Warrior template. It states that you lose your fly ability, if any. It doesn't say that you can never gain fly ability. If you gain fly ability after taking the template - for example, by becoming Dragonborn - you get to keep that flight. So keep that in mind if you decide you might want wings instead.

That's true. I dunno, the breath weapon appealed to me because of the damage+Con dependant save DC. Without any items, at 15th level, it's 6d8 with a DC of 10+7(1/2HD)+10(30Con)= 27. That's pretty high imo, even though this is late game stuff.