Using Path of War as a general fix to martial / caster disparity issues

[Ssalarn]

One of the things I see suggested a lot is using the Path of War classes and materials from Dreamscarred Press as a solution to martial/caster disparity, something I actually like, but which always felt like it had some issues - what if I don't want to play a Path of War class? What if I have one guy who wants to play a Fighter, and another who wants to play a Warder? Aren't they going to be imbalanced to each other since the Warder is designed as a Fighter fix?

So, I wrote up this little (completely unofficial) homebrew option, Spark of Battle (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LHB5ODNreXgr9Ug4Ipr2LekzgSuMtn3PpdrtwXF6AC4/edit?usp=sharing), that provides rules and options for grafting the Path of War disciplines and combat system directly into your campaign world, making martial maneuvers universally available, but with diminishing returns for classes that have access to spellcasting, essentially creating a situation where the more magic you have, the less initiating will be available to you, to the point where classes like the wizard and sorcerer stop having access to maneuvers entirely as their more powerful spells come online.

The rules build off a combination of the initiating system in Path of War and the Stamina system first presented in Pathfinder Unchained, and have multiple options for implementation, including a more dynamic die roll based system that allows you to "spark" and learn a new maneuver in the heat of combat, and an experience based progression that allows you to learn maneuvers between levels, allowing you to spread the fun of leveling up and increasing in power out over the course of the entire level.

Hopefully this is something you all can have fun with!

[Ilorin Lorati]

Sparketypes

I hate you.

[Ssalarn]

I hate you.

It had to be done.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I'll post the one issue I found here, the rules for adding maneuvers after level 1 doesn't provide any guidelines for what level maneuvers the characters' should have.

[Ssalarn]

I'll post the one issue I found here, the rules for adding maneuvers after level 1 doesn't provide any guidelines for what level maneuvers the characters' should have.

I was going to pop in and tweak the rules establishing Intelligence as the initiation modifier so that you instead pick your initiation modifier from the three mental ability scores, I'll look at adding that verbage to the higher level character creation rules while I'm at it.

[Kaidinah]

I hate you.I dunno. I think we need more puns.

[Hanuman]

So a variant on multiclassing?

[Ssalarn]

So a variant on multiclassing?

Kind of. It's more like taking disciplines and maneuvers from Path of War and divorcing them from the framework of initiating classes, instead adding them to all characters in a way that favors martials and eventually shuts out 9th level casters.

Closer to gestalt than multiclassing.

[Rainshine]

Just as a quick note -- not a critique -- but the new supplement, PoW: Expanded, features archetypes for the base classes where they exchange a chunk of their class features for initiator levels and maneuvers.

[Ssalarn]

Just as a quick note -- not a critique -- but the new supplement, PoW: Expanded, features archetypes for the base classes where they exchange a chunk of their class features for initiator levels and maneuvers.


I know. Some people may not want to give those features up though, or they may want to play a character concept that doesn't jive with the fluff or mechanics of that particular archetype. This is largely just a tool for a GM to create a world where martial power is as ubiquitous as magical power already is in the core assumption of the game, and to help create an equalized baseline that maintains the existing ceiling. The option for in-combat sparking that it presents is also a fun way to provide an option similar to the Critical Hit Deck, if that's the kind of thing your group goes for.


***EDIT***

Made a few tweaks to the sparking system. Sparking on a critical hit requires that the attack be made against a creature with hit dice equal to or greater than the initiator's, skill check sparking requires that the initiator not be in a situation where they would normally be allowed to take 10 or 20 on the roll, and you may now choose your initiation modifier when you first spark.

***EDIT2***

Added an author's note recommending that you prep the maneuvers you want plus some extra during down time to avoid any slow down at the table.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Alright, I've spent a bit of time going over this and thinking about it, and most of my feedback is in relation to the spellcaster penalties:

Apparently having spellcasting only applies a penalty to intelligence checks made to learn, and not to Wisdom or Charisma checks? The other penalties and limitations seem to do what you intended, but effectively targeting int specifically with that kind of penalty seems... odd, especially when all it takes is a 5600gp item (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/cyclops-helm) to get around it for them with their expected int bonus anyways.

Alchemists and Investigators aren't affected by the caster limitations at all - their Alchemy is supernatural.

The wording on the spellcaster penalties is weird, and even though it's obvious that you mean casters and manifesters, as per RAW all it does is limit casters, casters that can manifest powers (Read: Psychic Mages), and akashic characters -and the final one only because you specifically called them out.

3/4 BAB classes without spellcasting seem cut off from 9th level maneuvers, when in many cases they need it more than the full BAB classes, and the system needlessly penalizes rogues and any other non-spellcasting/manifesting character that get SLAs - assuming that you meant for the penalty my last point covered to mean everyone that can use the listed things.

[Ssalarn]

I actually tweaked it away from an Intelligence check, instead letting the character choose their initiation stat when they first spark. Per your suggestion, I incorporated characters with the Alchemy class feature into the equation and removed the restrictions that were punishing Rogues who grabbed the Minor or Major Magic talents.

[Extra Anchovies]

It gets harder and harder to initiate your highest-level maneuvers as you level, to the point that a 20th-level character won't be able to initiate more than two or maybe three 9th-level maneuvers in a row without recharging. Is that intentional? The rest of the system encourages having a lot of max-level maneuvers, because characters can rotate their lower-level maneuvers up every time they Spark, but the stamina costs actively punish stocking up on high-level stuff.

Otherwise I like this. It would be nice if you sorted the full maneuver descriptions by level and then alphabetically, though.

[Zireael]

Just as a quick note -- not a critique -- but the new supplement, PoW: Expanded, features archetypes for the base classes where they exchange a chunk of their class features for initiator levels and maneuvers.

Which supplement is this? Googling "Path of War Expanded" gives me several things...

Does it have an archetype for the fighter? What does he give up?

[Ssalarn]

It gets harder and harder to initiate your highest-level maneuvers as you level, to the point that a 20th-level character won't be able to initiate more than two or maybe three 9th-level maneuvers in a row without recharging. Is that intentional? The rest of the system encourages having a lot of max-level maneuvers, because characters can rotate their lower-level maneuvers up every time they Spark, but the stamina costs actively punish stocking up on high-level stuff.

Otherwise I like this. It would be nice if you sorted the full maneuver descriptions by level and then alphabetically, though.

Due to the dynamic nature of the system, the costs are intentionally balanced to where they are (otherwise you end up with characters who are more powerful than the actual PW classes). You're incentivized to keep at least a few lower level maneuvers available, which is actually something I was going to expand on a bit down in the "Characters above 1st level" section at the end of the doc. You can load up and spam higher level maneuvers if you want, but that means if you don't win before you've burned through your stamina, you're back to your maneuver-less baseline (kind of like a Psion burning all their PP on 9th level powers).

[Ssalarn]

Otherwise I like this. It would be nice if you sorted the full maneuver descriptions by level and then alphabetically, though.

Ask and ye shall receive. The maneuvers for the Spark of Battle discipline are now sorted alphabetically by level.

[Nyaa]

While the system is interesting, I'm gonna second "stamina is too much" opinion. Say you are a prepared caster or veilweaver. Every morning, you can prepare whatever you please. Now you are initiator. From so many interesting disciplines, you get 4-6 with your class. Then maybe switch one or two with a trait or tradition. Then carefully pick very few (only one in most cases) maneuvers every level. Then ready even fewer maneuvers. And under sparking system, use only 3-4 of them every encounter. Though average 25 known / 12 readied is on the higher end of initiating.
I'd say if sparking allowed spontaneous initiating from all known maneuvers, and every killed/disabled enemy you damaged restored conmod or initmod stamina, then it miiight be consider disparity reducer.

[Ssalarn]

While the system is interesting, I'm gonna second "stamina is too much" opinion. Say you are a prepared caster or veilweaver. Every morning, you can prepare whatever you please. Now you are initiator. From so many interesting disciplines, you get 4-6 with your class. Then maybe switch one or two with a trait or tradition. Then carefully pick very few (only one in most cases) maneuvers every level. Then ready even fewer maneuvers. And under sparking system, use only 3-4 of them every encounter. Though average 25 known / 12 readied is on the higher end of initiating.
I'd say if sparking allowed spontaneous initiating from all known maneuvers, and every killed/disabled enemy you damaged restored conmod or initmod stamina, then it miiight be consider disparity reducer.

I'm going to be honest, I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here.

That being said, the Stamina system provides a balanced pool you can initiate off of that self balances to the level of the maneuvers you prepare. The number of prepared maneuvers you can have already uses a formula that auto-balances to account for spellcasting and innate combat expertise, and the broader array of potential disciplines available is already self-balanced by sparking keying off of your weapon choice and the same discipline maneuvers known prerequisites that are already baked into every discipline.

[Nyaa]

I'm going to be honest, I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here.

Meh, I failed at writing again.

I was trying to say that while some systems have only two layers of complexity (or stories of ivory tower) for selecting your abilities (class list and spell slots or veils shaped), initiating have three: class disciplines, maneuvers known, maneuvers readied. Stamina is fourth layer.

I know you usually playtest the stuff you write, did you have a chance to playtest sparking along with regular initiators and casters?

[Ssalarn]

Meh, I failed at writing again.

I was trying to say that while some systems have only two layers of complexity (or stories of ivory tower) for selecting your abilities (class list and spell slots or veils shaped), initiating have three: class disciplines, maneuvers known, maneuvers readied. Stamina is fourth layer.

I know you usually playtest the stuff you write, did you have a chance to playtest sparking along with regular initiators and casters?


Absolutely. Even if it's just something going in the homebrew section, nothing gets made public unless it's had at least 5 hours of table time first. Stamina actually replaces the role normally played by class disciplines, and a lot of people have found that the Stamina system is actually as/more simple to utilize than the standard known/readied system. Assuming a class like the Fighter or Brawler, you're not quite as good an initiator as an actual initiating class, but you shouldn't be since you still have the full set of base class features as well. You get the functionality to cover the holes that exist in the base system, and bring total character functionality of non-initiating classes up to the same level as initiating classes.