3.5e Advice fighting a wyrm white dragon

[gilgil808]

Introduction: Me and a couple of my friends have been playing DnD 3.5 edition for a while now, and we're still bad at fighting dragons and assessing dangerous situations, so i'm coming here to ask you guys for help. Our mission was to protect a line of caravans that was supposed to deliver something (we don't know what), and the family of the one hired us who were coming with us. The daughter of whoever hired us was kidnapped in the middle of the way so we were sent to look for her and found her in an icy cave, as we were leaving the cave the dragon (who is the guy who bought the supply) showed up and cast resilient sphere on her claiming she is his bride to be.

The group:
Level 13 Paladin (LA)
Level 12 Bard (Cohort)
Level 14 Fighter/Cleric (6F/8C)
Level 14 Crusader
Level 10 Pixie Sorcerer (LA)
Level 14 Scout
Level 14 Wizard/Abjurant Champion (Forgot how much of each and the friend hasn't responded to my message)
Ranger 10/ Duskblade 1/Arcane Archer 1/ Peerless Archer 2

Additional info:
The wyrm white dragon might have different statistics since our DM changes monster stats, for example we already know he has around 44 ac instead of the normal 38.
We are fighting him in his cave, and if any more information is needed I can answer in the comments below.
EDIT: The changes don't have to be only buffs.

Bottom line:
Do you guys have any advice for how, and if we should fight him?

EDIT 2: Woops. it is probably a wyrm white dragon.

[Xervous]

You're a party of 6+ in the low teens that's going off to fight a lone dragon... in its home.

We can't really know how smart your GM is going to be playing things but you can never be too safe. I'll avoid anything overly cheesy and just go with the good blanket advice.

White dragon means cold damage. His breath weapon, themed minions he's likely to have, and quite possibly the environment he's chosen to lair in. After all, why wouldn't he want to be lounging in subzero temperatures that he's perfectly immune to? Protection From Energy grants you temporary a buffer of extra hit points that apply only against cold damage. Resist Energy gives you energy resistance for the duration, a better deal if you aren't so worried about getting nuked down by cold damage. And Energy Immunity does what it says on the tin, you're immune to cold damage, but it's a 6th level spell the party might not have easy access to. The others can be popped out of wands or scrolls, even potions on the cheap.

Dragons can fly, white dragons can also walk all over ice without a care. If you want to have a hope of navigating a properly designed dragon lair you need flight otherwise the terrain will give you trouble and the dragon will just fly out of reach of the melee focused party members. As a corollary to this you should look into options for forcing the dragon down to the ground. I'm drawing a blank on off-the-top-of-my-head things for this.

[Jack_Simth]

1) By default, dragon caster levels are rather poor. Greater Dispel Magic away his buffs.
2) By default, White dragons are vulnerable to fire. He'll know this, but then, that's why GDM. Burn him!
3) In general, white dragons will use a lot of cold-themed stuff. Resist Energy and Mass Resist Energy are good investments.
4) ... yeah, it depends on how well the DM plays the dragon. There's a LOT that *might* be going on, especially if your DM changes things up. However... it's hard to say what, specifically, so....

[Bad Wolf]

Protection from Energy (Cold) will come in handy. Other then that, maybe Orb of Fire and Fireballs and blast him to the Abyss.

[gilgil808]

White dragon means cold damage. His breath weapon, themed minions he's likely to have, and quite possibly the environment he's chosen to lair in.


3) In general, white dragons will use a lot of cold-themed stuff. Resist Energy and Mass Resist Energy are good investments.



Protection from Energy (Cold) will come in handy. Other then that, maybe Orb of Fire and Fireballs and blast him to the Abyss.

We currently are under a Mass Resist Energy spell.

Also, we tried using fire spells but he has pretty high SR.

[Draconium]

Last time my group fought a white dragon, of an appropriate challenge rating, it ended in a near-TPK and the dragon going back to it's lair, not even really bloodied. Based on that, I can give you advice on what not to do:

*Don't insult the dragon.
*Don't allow it to land a full attack on you. Especially not twice in a row.
*Don't try to steal from the dragon.
*Don't get right up in it's face.
*Don't totally disregard anything on it's person that may be magical in nature.
*Don't go rushing into the fight without a plan. This goes doubly so if the DM is actually trying to get you guys to work together.

That being said, a normal Ancient White Dragon is a CR of 18. I doubt you'll be able to take this guy in a straight fight. I would recommend attempting Diplomacy and/or sneaky tactics to get you guys, and hopefully the prisoner, out of there alive.

[gilgil808]

*Don't insult the dragon. We did.
*Don't allow it to land a full attack on you. Especially not twice in a row. Someone did.
*Don't try to steal from the dragon. Like stealing his potential wife?
*Don't get right up in it's face. Someone did.
*Don't totally disregard anything on it's person that may be magical in nature.
*Don't go rushing into the fight without a plan. This goes doubly so if the DM is actually trying to get you guys to work together. We're in round 2 of the fight, we didn't know he was a dragon and he just transformed and started fighting with us.

That being said, a normal Ancient White Dragon is a CR of 18. I doubt you'll be able to take this guy in a straight fight. I would recommend attempting Diplomacy and/or sneaky tactics to get you guys, and hopefully the prisoner, out of there alive.

Things not to do: 5/6 done. Great. Yeah we ****ed up big time.

[Draconium]

Things not to do: 5/6 done. Great. Yeah we ****ed up big time.

Okay then, new advice: Run. :smalltongue:

In all seriousness, you are in a lot of trouble now. Unless you have some spells that can full-on one-shot the dragon at this point, you're not gonna make it without serious DM fiat. I would recommend retreating, finding some way to keep Mr. Dragon from following, then researching everything you can about the him, whether from legend or fact or whatever. Then prepare yourselves, return, and fight him once you're ready.

[Flickerdart]

Try your best not to cry - the dragon will just freeze your tears and reinforce his terrain advantage.

[noob]

Find someone who loves this dragon.
Now the dragon is dead.
Or yet simply get the help of team level 11 wizards with ardent ray(they are going to empty the buffer of fire resist very fast or they might even use ardent rays of various elements)

[hex0]

Ray of clumsiness is good on dragons

[Sayt]

We currently are under a Mass Resist Energy spell.

Also, we tried using fire spells but he has pretty high SR.

Blast of Flame is a 40 ft cone, and is a Conjuration creation spell, I'm pretty sure it's SR: Nope

[Seclora]

Things not to do: 5/6 done. Great. Yeah we ****ed up big time.

Surrender and point out that your Cleric can officiate the wedding. Consider Charming the girl into agreeing to it, so that you can annul it later on the grounds of 'magical compulsion'. Use the evening to prepare new spells, learn the lay of the land, and gather information on the situation.
If appropriate, kill Dragon at wedding. Otherwise, make joke about it being a nice day for a white wedding.


I would consider the possibility that the girl was actually what you were transporting, given that the dragon was the buyer. Also, since when can White Dragons turn into humans without spells? Run Detect Magic/Arcane Sight on everything; circumstances conspire against you and divinations may be warranted.

[Crake]

Honestly, without any prep-time (which it doesn't seem like you've had) you're probably screwed. I'm going to mimic the advice others have given and say: Run! Have the mages teleport you all to safety and plan your attack with the new information you've gotten. If anyone has it, pop a detect scrying up, so if the dragon tries to find you, you'll know about it. He has your party's blood on his claws, so the save DC on scrying is gonna be pretty high.

For overcoming his SR, either prepare SR: No spells like orb of fire (which has the added bonus of possibly dazing him), or prepare assay resistance, which will give the caster +10 on SR checks against the dragon. If your mages have it, greater arcane sight and/or analyze dweomer will let you identify single buff he has, with analyze dweomer giving you the added benefit of being able to identify any magical items he has. Extra points if you do that through a scrying sensor before his buffs fade away, so you can plan ahead (spontaneous divination ACF HO!)


Also, since when can White Dragons turn into humans without spells?

The alternate form feat allows any dragon with 5 levels of sorcerer casting to gain the alternate form special quality to turn into medium or smaller humanoids or animals, 3/day with unlimited duration.

[Seclora]

The alternate form feat allows any dragon with 5 levels of sorcerer casting to gain the alternate form special quality to turn into medium or smaller humanoids or animals, 3/day with unlimited duration.

Which book is that? I completely believe you, but haven't been able to find it in a long time.
In any case, your opponent has burned a feat pretending to be human, which is one less metamagic or epic Feat than he could have had. Rejoice.

[Bronk]

Which book is that? I completely believe you, but haven't been able to find it in a long time.
In any case, your opponent has burned a feat pretending to be human, which is one less metamagic or epic Feat than he could have had. Rejoice.

It appears to be from 'Dragons of Eberron'.

Edit: By the way, gilgil808, it sounded as if you were posting mid battle... how did it turn out?

I'm thinking it was a plot point, myself, so I'd be interested to hear if you were able to run away or talk you way out of it or something.

[gilgil808]

It appears to be from 'Dragons of Eberron'.

Edit: By the way, gilgil808, it sounded as if you were posting mid battle... how did it turn out?

I'm thinking it was a plot point, myself, so I'd be interested to hear if you were able to run away or talk you way out of it or something.

Our sessions are once a week and this was how the last session ended. The next one is on friday so I'll tell you what happened.

[Bronk]

Heh, cool! I'll stay tuned.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Well, then we're coming at the question from the wrong direction. The thing we need to know is not "what preparations can you manage," but rather, what is your current condition and options? What spells do the casters have left to cast, what items do you have at your disposal, does anybody have any abilities from feats that we might not gather from their race and class? We need as much info as you can scrounge up on your current available options to help you out mid-fight.

[Chaltah]

Advice for a bunch of lvl 14's going up against a wyrm dragon.... RUN! lol. Stay far away from it and its lair. Come back when you're closer to 20 and try it then

[gilgil808]

Well, then we're coming at the question from the wrong direction. The thing we need to know is not "what preparations can you manage," but rather, what is your current condition and options? What spells do the casters have left to cast, what items do you have at your disposal, does anybody have any abilities from feats that we might not gather from their race and class? We need as much info as you can scrounge up on your current available options to help you out mid-fight.

Well, I (Ranger/otherstuff) have a dead eye feat that gives me +dex to dmg when I'm withing 30 feat which aint gonna happen. I already learned my lesson. I have Protection from Energy, True Strike and Expeditious Retreat.
Paladin has a ring that can make him ethereal.
Bard is a normal bard. She is a new cohort so she doesn't have all of her spells learned.
Fighter/Cleric: Not yet answered.
Crusader: Stances: Rallying strike, Order Forged From Chaos, War Leader's Charge, Elder Mountain Hammer, Avalanche of Blades, Doom Charge, Bonesplitting Strike, Defensive Rebuke, Revitalizing Strike, Ancient Mountain Hammer, Swarming Assault. Stances: Thichet of Blades, Iron Guard's Glare, Aura of Perfect Order.
Pixie Sorcerer's spells known: Level 0: Do they really matter? Level 1: Charm Perspn, Grease, Mage Armor, Magic missile, Ray of Enfeeblement. Level 2: Glitterdust, Pyrotechnics, Web. Level 3 (Used 1): Fireball, Slow, Stinking Cloud. Level 4: Solid Fog, Summon Monster IV. Level 5: Feeblemind. And a few spells written on his page which our DM keeps.
Scout- Celestial Armor.
Wizard/Other things: He doesn't remember which are prepared: Level 2: Detect thoughts, Fog Cloud, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Rope Trick, See Invisibility. Level 3: Dispel Magic, Fly, Magic Weapon, Greater, Nondetection, Phanton Steed, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Tongues, Water Breathing. Level 4: Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Invisibility, Greater, Polymorph, Solid Fog. Level 5: Bafeul Polymorph, Overland Flight, Permanency, Planar Binding, Lesser, Shadow Evocation, Telekinesis, Teleport, Wall of Stone. Level 6: Analyze Dweomer, Disintegrate, Planar Binding.


Advice for a bunch of lvl 14's going up against a wyrm dragon.... RUN! lol. Stay far away from it and its lair. Come back when you're closer to 20 and try it then

Then we lost our job and our land. RIP all the people.
Also this is what we think it is we are not 100% sure, might be weaker but buffed one.

[Jack_Simth]

OK, so....

Have the Wizard Solid Fog the critter, first off. That'll deny line-of-sight for spells (so you'll only need to deal with area stuff) and keep him from moving. He'll dispel it, but you've also got it on a Sorcerer, and doing so costs him an action. When he dispels it or if he just uses enough movement to get out of it, replace it. There's more of you than there are of him. If he has to spend one standard action countering the standard action of the Sorcerer, that's a big win for you, as your Wizard, Cleric, Crusader, et cetera still get to go, and he's already used up his action.

Make use of your ray spells. Ray of Enfeeblement will be a handy one (which is also why I said to have the Wizard cast Solid Fog, initially), as it cuts down on Mr. Dragon's melee capability.

Then start buffing allies. Polymorph & Greater Invisibility for the Crusader and the Paladin (both need both). Young Gold dragon (you've already got Energy Resistance up). Bard should probably sing. Cleric should probably start by buffing the Crusader and Paladin as well. Scout... should probably try ranged attacks while everything is going down.

[gilgil808]

OK, so....

Have the Wizard Solid Fog the critter, first off. That'll deny line-of-sight for spells (so you'll only need to deal with area stuff) and keep him from moving. He'll dispel it, but you've also got it on a Sorcerer, and doing so costs him an action. When he dispels it or if he just uses enough movement to get out of it, replace it. There's more of you than there are of him. If he has to spend one standard action countering the standard action of the Sorcerer, that's a big win for you, as your Wizard, Cleric, Crusader, et cetera still get to go, and he's already used up his action.

Make use of your ray spells. Ray of Enfeeblement will be a handy one (which is also why I said to have the Wizard cast Solid Fog, initially), as it cuts down on Mr. Dragon's melee capability.

Then start buffing allies. Polymorph & Greater Invisibility for the Crusader and the Paladin (both need both). Young Gold dragon (you've already got Energy Resistance up). Bard should probably sing. Cleric should probably start by buffing the Crusader and Paladin as well. Scout... should probably try ranged attacks while everything is going down.

Oh just an FYI, the session ended with the wizard charging the dragon and rolling one (not critical fail tho). Also the dragon is currently flying so melee guys can't reach him right now.
Also what does "Young Gold dragon (you've already got Energy Resistance up)." mean?

[Bronk]

Oh just an FYI, the session ended with the wizard charging the dragon and rolling one (not critical fail tho). Also the dragon is currently flying so melee guys can't reach him right now.
Also what does "Young Gold dragon (you've already got Energy Resistance up)." mean?

I'm guessing he means that once you turn into a gold dragon, you'll be vulnerable to cold, but it's okay since you already have protection against cold.

Hmm, 'stinking cloud' would be good if it weren't for the fort save... It would have a better chance of working if it really was a younger dragon with a size boost of some sort.

I think your DM is adhering to the flying rules really closely, the 'solid fog' would be both hard for the dragon to avoid and cause him to stall and crash (gently) once he's in it. But, at least it would be on the ground for a while!

Edit: Maybe you could try to work out the Bard's spell selection before your next game. I mean, clearly the bard has spells of some sort, it just stands to reason, so maybe one of them would be useful, like 'inspirational boost' or maybe they have 'words of creation' feat or something. Plus, see if you can't give him or her a spare bow.

Plus, try to get the wizard to cast fly on a fighter type when you get a chance, that might help. Or maybe he could just remember it for next time, it seems like he's a bit busy...

Hmm, the wizard has 'shadow evocation', able to cast any evocation spell of 4th level or lower, but with a will save added on. He could try casting the level four 'Wingbind' (spell compendium page 240). On a failed will save (because of the shadow) and then on a failed reflex save, the dragon would be bound, plummet to the ground taking falling damage, and be held there for 14 rounds unless it makes an escape artist check. If that works, you can all just stand around stabbing it until it dies.

[Enran]

As others have said, Solid Fog is your best friend here. Can anybody on your side see magical auras? He's a white dragon, so if he's actually a younger one who buffed himself, his low CL (especially relative to other dragons of that CR or age) ought might make dispelling those buffs a worthwhile tactical plan, but you don't want to waste valuable actions (and spells) if you aren't sure it'll help. The Crusader looks eager for an opportunity to wreck face, so if you can force the dragon down to the ground, or at least slow it down enough that he can catch it once Fly is cast on him, that'll be golden. Anything you have that relies on touch attacks will probably work wonders, too... Except Disintegrate, the dragon will definitely make the save and render the damage worthless.

You're outmatched, I'll tell you that straight, but maybe you're not done for. And think of all the XP if you win! Good luck.

EDIT: Shadow Evocation Wingbind is probably a bad idea. Any older dragon is extremely unlikely to fail two saves in a row unless the DCs are obscenely high for your level.

[Bronk]

EDIT: Shadow Evocation Wingbind is probably a bad idea. Any older dragon is extremely unlikely to fail two saves in a row unless the DCs are obscenely high for your level.

Definitely last resort type stuff... it's just the best he's going to get out of that spell.

[Jack_Simth]

Oh just an FYI, the session ended with the wizard charging the dragon and rolling one (not critical fail tho). Also the dragon is currently flying so melee guys can't reach him right now.
Also what does "Young Gold dragon (you've already got Energy Resistance up)." mean?
What Bronk said.

He's currently flying? Solid Fog is a must, then. The reason: Few dragons have the manoeuvrability to stay airborn when they can't make their speed (lots of them have the Hover feat, though). He won't fall quickly through the fog, but once he's out of the fog, he's going down (unless he has hover or some such).

[gilgil808]

Well thanks everyone, the session is in 15 minutes BUT the scout and the piexie will apparently won't come so I can already predict what happens. TPK YAY.

[Enran]

Well thanks everyone, the session is in 15 minutes BUT the scout and the piexie will apparently won't come so I can already predict what happens. TPK YAY.
Yeah, um, NPC them or don't play. Making you go through the fight with party members randomly vanishing for no IC reason is immensely unfair to you all.

[Crake]

What Bronk said.

He's currently flying? Solid Fog is a must, then. The reason: Few dragons have the manoeuvrability to stay airborn when they can't make their speed (lots of them have the Hover feat, though). He won't fall quickly through the fog, but once he's out of the fog, he's going down (unless he has hover or some such).

I remember the time i used solid fog on a dragon and the DM just said the dragon flapped it's wings, causing winds fast enough to disperse the fog. Cause yeah, flapping your wings that fast in a fog that prevents you from moving more than 5ft a round is totally a thing.

Oh, I'm totally not still sour about that or anything.

[TheifofZ]

Yeah, um, NPC them or don't play. Making you go through the fight with party members randomly vanishing for no IC reason is immensely unfair to you all.

Specifically, boss fights like that.
Although with the general party set up, none of them are really well geared toward killing a Wyrm anyway. Played smart, I'd give them a 60 ~65% win chance, at best. Down 2 players, it's closer to 45%.

Now if the wizard had Shivering Touch, this would all be cut and dried already.
Make the touch attack. No save. Dragon takes 3d6 dex damage. Dragon is now unable to move. Coup-de-Grace for the next 24 hours till it dies.
But as it is, your best bet is definitely relying on the wizard's Solid Fog.
So... Yeah. The wizard that just charged. I feel for you, man. I really do.

[gilgil808]

Well session is over, surprisingly enough nobody died. Nor did the dragon, we'er still mid fight. We are DBZ in that perspective. The dragon got something around 300 dmg so far, he grappled me so I did nothing the whole fight, he grappled the wizard as well, he got loose and did like 150-200 dmg then got grappled again. Nobody used solid fog because we forgot the cave was really windy, and we was standing on the floor so it was ok anyways. Next session we will still probably wont have the scout but the pixie should come, so hopefully we will be able to win somehow.

[Crake]

Well session is over, surprisingly enough nobody died. Nor did the dragon, we'er still mid fight. We are DBZ in that perspective. The dragon got something around 300 dmg so far, he grappled me so I did nothing the whole fight, he grappled the wizard as well, he got loose and did like 150-200 dmg then got grappled again. Nobody used solid fog because we forgot the cave was really windy, and we was standing on the floor so it was ok anyways. Next session we will still probably wont have the scout but the pixie should come, so hopefully we will be able to win somehow.

Is the cave really that windy? if it's windy enough to blow away a solid fog, then it's so windy that you would need to be making fortitude saves each round to move against the wind, and any small party members would be knocked prone, so unless that's a factor, the wind isn't strong enough to blow away the solid fog.

[Xervous]

Now if the wizard had Shivering Touch, this would all be cut and dried already.
Make the touch attack. No save. Dragon takes 3d6 dex damage. Dragon is now unable to move. Coup-de-Grace for the next 24 hours till it dies.

This dragon happens to have the cold subtype so... Shivering Touch is about as useful as Read Magic cast out of a third level slot.

[Bronk]

Well session is over, surprisingly enough nobody died. Nor did the dragon, we'er still mid fight. We are DBZ in that perspective. The dragon got something around 300 dmg so far, he grappled me so I did nothing the whole fight, he grappled the wizard as well, he got loose and did like 150-200 dmg then got grappled again. Nobody used solid fog because we forgot the cave was really windy, and we was standing on the floor so it was ok anyways. Next session we will still probably wont have the scout but the pixie should come, so hopefully we will be able to win somehow.

Man, that's one long fight! I think you and the wizard are both lucky... it sounds like the dragon didn't bother damaging you after grappling, just kept you out of the way, which probably also kept it from attacking the others as much as it would have otherwise.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Question has this dragon tried to dig yet? From what it sounds like the DM didn't give this dragon its proper den which is really good for you guys.

Add fight white dragon in a cave (especially if it is in an iceburg or glacier) to the list of things you should never do but did.

Most dragons have an advantage outside their lair, because they can fly. White dragons always have an advantage unless you can fly. Cause burrow speed.

Hope you have some good turn of events coming and be glad the dragon hasn't started assaulting you from underground since it is probably pretty weak by now. If it does go underground keep moving.

Also did you say it has increased ac? That is scary, since white dragons have the highest ac per cr of any core dragon.

[gilgil808]

Man, that's one long fight! I think you and the wizard are both lucky... it sounds like the dragon didn't bother damaging you after grappling, just kept you out of the way, which probably also kept it from attacking the others as much as it would have otherwise.

Nothing too big, he just holds us and crushes us in his hands. He did use his breath weapon and held me in front of his mouth once but I got a total of 58 dmg so far.


Question has this dragon tried to dig yet? From what it sounds like the DM didn't give this dragon its proper den which is really good for you guys.

Add fight white dragon in a cave (especially if it is in an iceburg or glacier) to the list of things you should never do but did.

Most dragons have an advantage outside their lair, because they can fly. White dragons always have an advantage unless you can fly. Cause burrow speed.

Hope you have some good turn of events coming and be glad the dragon hasn't started assaulting you from underground since it is probably pretty weak by now. If it does go underground keep moving.

Also did you say it has increased ac? That is scary, since white dragons have the highest ac per cr of any core dragon.

Right now he is flying 60 feet high denying us from getting to him by using a field that makes lvl 3 or less spells suspended.

Also, we wanted to use Solid Fog but for some reason my DM said its not the best idea. He has his changes to the rules so maybe it wouldn't be as effective as it will usually be.

[NeckTop]

Nothing too big, he just holds us and crushes us in his hands. He did use his breath weapon and held me in front of his mouth once but I got a total of 58 dmg so far.



Right now he is flying 60 feet high denying us from getting to him by using a field that makes lvl 3 or less spells suspended.

Also, we wanted to use Solid Fog but for some reason my DM said its not the best idea. He has his changes to the rules so maybe it wouldn't be as effective as it will usually be.

I'm also a player in the party OP is a part of so i'll add a bit of information.

Currently the wind is 30 mph so Solid Fog would disperse in a round and have no use, and the dragon cast a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability so we cant reach him with fly spells (Wizard can still reach him with overland flight and cleric with Airwalk but he gets blown back every turn so he has to charge with spring attack every turn).

Would love some suggestions on how to hit the dragon when he is flying or how to get the ranger/wizard out (I'm the paladin stuck wondering how to get up 60 feet in the air so I can smite the dragon).

[Xervous]

I'm also a player in the party OP is a part of so i'll add a bit of information.

Currently the wind is 30 mph so Solid Fog would disperse in a round and have no use, and the dragon cast a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability so we cant reach him with fly spells (Wizard can still reach him with overland flight and cleric with Airwalk but he gets blown back every turn so he has to charge with spring attack every turn).

Would love some suggestions on how to hit the dragon when he is flying or how to get the ranger/wizard out (I'm the paladin stuck wondering how to get up 60 feet in the air so I can smite the dragon).

Worst case scenario you could fly above the dragon and charge straight down. As the Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser only covers a 10ft radius sphere the fly spell would no longer be suppressed when you fell past the dragon so you wouldn't go splat. Still, you're going to provoke an attack of opportunity... this is a worst case scenario after all.


--> Could be wrong on the no-splat thing...

[nedz]

I remember the time i used solid fog on a dragon and the DM just said the dragon flapped it's wings, causing winds fast enough to disperse the fog. Cause yeah, flapping your wings that fast in a fog that prevents you from moving more than 5ft a round is totally a thing.

Oh, I'm totally not still sour about that or anything.

Well he might have had the Wing Expert ( Races of the Dragon p105) or Wingstorm ( Draconomicon p75) feats which can do that.

[Bronk]

Currently the wind is 30 mph so Solid Fog would disperse in a round and have no use

I realize this might just be an estimate on your part, but if the DM stated this, that's just the upper range of strong winds, not severe. Strong winds aren't enough to blow away solid fog, and only give a -2 to ranged attack rolls.

Even if your DM clarifies that the wind speeds are 31+ MPH, the spell will still last long enough to knock a clumsy flier out of the sky, and ranged attack rolls would be at -4, so still possible.

Edit: As for attacking the dragon while it is in the air, you could:

A: Get the wizard to cast fly on you (if that hasn't already been expended), then use the ideas already mentioned, like flying over it and attacking downwards. You might even be able to qualify that as a charge for extra damage.

B: A previous post said you had a ring that turned you ethereal. If that's literally what it does (and isn't just a ring of blink or something), you could go to the ethereal plane - which has no gravity - will yourself up to the dragon, switch back, and smite. Oh, and then go ethereal again ASAP so you don't take falling damage... maybe the wizard can help with that part.

C: Trick it into grappling you. It's already grappled the wizard and the ranger, after all.

[gilgil808]

I realize this might just be an estimate on your part, but if the DM stated this, that's just the upper range of strong winds, not severe. Strong winds aren't enough to blow away solid fog, and only give a -2 to ranged attack rolls.

Even if your DM clarifies that the wind speeds are 31+ MPH, the spell will still last long enough to knock a clumsy flier out of the sky, and ranged attack rolls would be at -4, so still possible.

Edit: As for attacking the dragon while it is in the air, you could:

A: Get the wizard to cast fly on you (if that hasn't already been expended), then use the ideas already mentioned, like flying over it and attacking downwards. You might even be able to qualify that as a charge for extra damage.

B: A previous post said you had a ring that turned you ethereal. If that's literally what it does (and isn't just a ring of blink or something), you could go to the ethereal plane - which has no gravity - will yourself up to the dragon, switch back, and smite. Oh, and then go ethereal again ASAP so you don't take falling damage... maybe the wizard can help with that part.

C: Trick it into grappling you. It's already grappled the wizard and the ranger, after all.

For each point:
A) He doesn't have any flying spells anymore.

B) Our DM said that in the etheerial plane he can go up 10 ft each round, so it'll take long time to get to the dragon, might be worth it as last resort.

C) He already knows he has that ring and I'm pretty sure he is smart enough to understand that he shouldn't grapple him.


About the flying above part: Do you guys think it will be possible to stand on the dragon? Or at least fall on him and stay there? I really doubt we would be able to but is it worth trying? Or should the melee fliers just charge then go back up? Because it seems like it will take a lot of time to so this routine.

[Bronk]

A) He doesn't have any flying spells anymore.


Bummer



B) Our DM said that in the etheerial plane he can go up 10 ft each round, so it'll take long time to get to the dragon, might be worth it as last resort.


A bit of a bummer, but I guess it is probably a homebrewed item anyway.



C) He already knows he has that ring and I'm pretty sure he is smart enough to understand that he shouldn't grapple him.

It's worth a try, it's already grappled you after all, and your ranger is fighty.



About the flying above part: Do you guys think it will be possible to stand on the dragon? Or at least fall on him and stay there? I really doubt we would be able to but is it worth trying? Or should the melee fliers just charge then go back up? Because it seems like it will take a lot of time to so this routine.

There aren't any explicit rules for that, as far as I know, but you might finagle something with the movement rules concerning obstacles, which state:


On the other hand, some obstacles block movement entirely. A character can’t move through a blocking obstacle.

If you can convince your DM that a gargantuan dragon counts as an obstacle because you're above it and it's blocking your way to the ground, then maybe, briefly. Once there, the ride skill wouldn't cover it because it isn't your mount, and it's too big to easily grapple.

As for falling onto the gargantuan dragon, I think the same reasoning would apply... however, avoiding falling objects is a flat DC15 reflex save, which, looking at a wyrm white dragon's stats, it would only fail by rolling a one.

[Crake]

Well he might have had the Wing Expert ( Races of the Dragon p105) or Wingstorm ( Draconomicon p75) feats which can do that.

Nah, when i asked about it, the DM just said that it was something all dragons could do without a feat, while standing on the ground, without spending an action to do so (cause it used it's breath weapon then took off in the same round, it started on the ground). When i pointed out the fact that feats existed to let them do things like that, he just shrugged and said "dragons don't need feats for things like that".

[Sagetim]

Well, damn...none of your characters is a Binder. They have a great solution for white dragons: Bind Amon and burn them to death while ignoring their SR. And at that level, you could also bind (Haures? Haagenti?) and get an SR ignoring Phantasmal Killer throwing out at it every 5 rounds or so to try and 1 fish it to death. Every power the Binder class has is supernatural, and as far as I recall, that means it ignores spell resistance. Handy.

Keep the dragon from flying. You want him on the ground where you can surround and pound him to death. Yes, it will be dangerous as hell to do that, but it's safer than the dragon doing breath strafing runs on you until you're all dead. The Harm spell can work wonders for damage if you can manage to get past it's SR. If your wizard has orb of fire, I'm pretty sure that has SR: No on it, and can be thrown out for some consistent fire damage during this fight.

Unfortunately it sounds like you're Already In The Fight, which means there's not a lot of options for prepping for the fight. At the least, the mass resist energy is giving you something like 30 cold resistance, and that's going to help a lot if you can manage to keep succeeding on reflex saves for half (because the halving is applied first, then resistances).

If I recall correctly, you can use ghost touch weapons while on the ethereal plane to hit things on the material plane without a 50% miss chance for being incorporeal. This could be quite handy, especially if the dragon's natural attacks don't count as magical (which means it can't hit incorporeal at all using them).

[gilgil808]

Well, dragons dead. We're not. Well not yet theres someone under him getting crush dmg and we are kinda trying to help him out. Also I'm feebleminded so I can't really help. Overall: We still have hope! We just might complete this journey.

[Sagetim]

I just read through this again and have to ask: Doesn't Glove of Invulnerability (and it's variations) only Protect the person who cast it? How could it negate level 3 and lower buffs on other people? I understand that the globe might be big enough to protect the being that cast the spell, but that doesn't change the fact that the spell doesn't have an offensive function like that built in normally.

Am I misremembering? Did the GM houserule Globe of Invulnerability to be more effective than it normally is? Can you cast Giant Form and Globe of Invulnerability and walk around negating enemies low level buffs? I'm going to go look the spell up to make sure I'm not misremembering it....

And I'm apparently misremembering it...and I think that GM has to have houseruled it. The spell creates a 10ft Immobile sphere centered on the caster. So if a dragon is flying around and casts it, it makes a little bitty sphere that doesn't even cover the whole dragon and the dragon flies out of it shortly thereafter...>.>

And the higher level one is also immobile, it works exactly the same but it's effective against level 4 and lower...

I'm going to lay the blame at the feet of games like neverwinter nights where it's a buff that attaches to the caster and only affects incoming attack spells and aoe's (not the buffs of enemies, magic items, and so on).

[gilgil808]

I just read through this again and have to ask: Doesn't Glove of Invulnerability (and it's variations) only Protect the person who cast it? How could it negate level 3 and lower buffs on other people? I understand that the globe might be big enough to protect the being that cast the spell, but that doesn't change the fact that the spell doesn't have an offensive function like that built in normally.

Am I misremembering? Did the GM houserule Globe of Invulnerability to be more effective than it normally is? Can you cast Giant Form and Globe of Invulnerability and walk around negating enemies low level buffs? I'm going to go look the spell up to make sure I'm not misremembering it....

And I'm apparently misremembering it...and I think that GM has to have houseruled it. The spell creates a 10ft Immobile sphere centered on the caster. So if a dragon is flying around and casts it, it makes a little bitty sphere that doesn't even cover the whole dragon and the dragon flies out of it shortly thereafter...>.>

And the higher level one is also immobile, it works exactly the same but it's effective against level 4 and lower...

I'm going to lay the blame at the feet of games like neverwinter nights where it's a buff that attaches to the caster and only affects incoming attack spells and aoe's (not the buffs of enemies, magic items, and so on).

It affecter 10 ft from him, so I guess thats what he thinks the spell does.

[Bronk]

It affecter 10 ft from him, so I guess thats what he thinks the spell does.

I have to admit, I've never heard of a three week going on four week fight before! That's one persistent DM!

[Sagetim]

It affecter 10 ft from him, so I guess thats what he thinks the spell does.

You should probably go over the spell with the DM so that they know how it works (as written). If the DM wants to houserule it, that's fine...just...the players should know that it's been houseruled and have access to the same version, generally.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I have to admit, I've never heard of a three week going on four week fight before! That's one persistent DM!

probably depends a lot on session length. My group does sessions that can last up to 10+ hours once a week or so. We had a goblin fight that lasted all night. If we had shorter sessions that could have lasted a good month.

[gilgil808]

I have to admit, I've never heard of a three week going on four week fight before! That's one persistent DM!


probably depends a lot on session length. My group does sessions that can last up to 10+ hours once a week or so. We had a goblin fight that lasted all night. If we had shorter sessions that could have lasted a good month.

Our sessions are 3 hour long and once a week, so we fought the dragon for around 7.5 hours so far