justification of CR appropriate level enemies

[elonin]

Mostly what the title says. I'm all for balance and everyone having fun. Part of fun can be knowing that things can get wildly out of hand. For example the hobbits under the path while a nazgul sniffed for the ring. Its an iconic scene that was a popular illustration as long as the book has been out. The way I've seen it played out is 1 party is warned from going 'over there" and the adventurers decide to just ignore the advice knowing that that's the direction of loot and xp.

So am I off in left field somewhere and most DM's will include encounters a party can't hope to deal with? Or would anyone like to defend the strange world that levels up along with the players?

[Red Fel]

So am I off in left field somewhere and most DM's will include encounters a party can't hope to deal with? Or would anyone like to defend the strange world that levels up along with the players?

I generally don't support the idea of dropping encounters on the PCs for with which they are woefully unable to cope. That said, the PCs choose where they wish to go; if they decide, despite all warnings to the contrary, to assault the capital armed only with torches and pitchforks, they should not be surprised that they're confronted by armies and archmages. But random encounters... No.

That said, that doesn't mean that the world levels up with the PCs. That's the opposite extreme. Suddenly every goblin has class levels and magic items? I don't see that unless it's being deliberately orchestrated. Rather, I see the PCs having the sense to pursue wealth and power, or the plot. And let's face it, killing Kobolds for pennies isn't as profitable at level 10 as it was at level 2. So you move up to Orcs, and from Orcs to cultists, from cultists to Thayans, from Thayans to Dragons, from Dragons to Evil Outsiders, and so forth. Bigger targets, fatter loot. The world isn't leveling up with the PCs; rather, the PCs are becoming bigger fish, and are looking for a bigger pond in which to swim.

[Malroth]

Well Most well established communities will know the nature and location of most local creatures simply from having that number of individuals making observations over a long enough period of time, Also If You're running a world where NPCs gain experience Lv 4-5 commoners will be much more common than Lv1's simply from the experiences of day to day living in potentially dangerous environments, thus when you have a bunch of impoverished neer-do wells in substandard gear barely young enough to take on an apprenticeship (lv 1 adventures) they're sent to do things too menial for the farmers themselves (like killing one boar or clearing out a few rats) as a kind of pity job, the More dangerous creatures are still out there but the farmers are likely bribing it to leaving them alone untill someone who looks to be either competent, disposable or dangerous comes by and is directed to those threats. Once the PC's are local legends able to beat up the toughest guys in town (lv 6-8) the boar killing jobs still exist but are given to a new generation in the same manner as a fast food job would be.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Red Fel
I generally don't support the idea of dropping encounters on the PCs for with which they are woefully unable to cope.

...the PCs are becoming bigger fish, and are looking for a bigger pond in which to swim.

And yet, the PCs aren't the only fish in the ocean, and sometimes the minnows get too close to the barracuda. Just happens sometimes.

I can see both the OP's point and Red Fel's perspective. As it happens, I do like dropping a crazy encounter on the PCs every now and then--and I also like occasionally throwing them oddball things which turn out to be far, far less inimical than they first appeared, to even it out a bit. Even if the PCs aren't going after small fry once they hit mid-levels, sometimes those small fry pick the wrong fight.



Also, this:

In my very first 3.5 group, when we were going through Forge of Fury, we had an encounter with a roper which, according to the module, is supposed to be an example to players of knowing when to talk politely to a vastly superior foe.

Sadly, thanks to a rather notorious printing error, the roper as presented couldn't speak Common, and so we just walked up and attacked it--and we ended up annihilating the thing. The look on our DM's face was priceless. Flustered astonishment mingled with helpless hilarity.

That was one of our favorite moments from the campaign. So yeah, sometimes a little CR disparity works out okay.

[HalfQuart]

The campaigns where I started playing and DMing (2E) had a lot of non-level appropriate encounters, which taught me to be cautious and run away when things seem out of our league. That's generally what I think is appropriate -- if something is too high CR, provide ominous warnings and/or a way to retreat or surrender that doesn't lead to a TPK.

In the current campaign I play in, pretty much everything is level appropriate, or sometimes lower CR for wandering monsters. We did cross an arcane ooze a few sessions ago for which we were poorly prepared and ran away. One of the other players remarked that in the 2 years he's been playing D&D, it's the first time one of his characters has ever retreated from combat. I think that's absurd, and really not the kind of D&D I enjoy.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Each area of a given setting has its own ecosystem, each ecosystem has a fairly tight CR range of monsters. Weaker monsters that wander in are easily devoured, and stronger monsters that come through disrupt the balance and may be sought out for destruction by some guardian figure (adventurers, that random high-level NPC ranger or druid, a good dragon, etc.). This is why opponents are a consistent CR, and it's no coincidence that the PCs will leave an area they've outleveled, and move into a nearby area that with an ecosystem at a slightly higher CR range.

[Enran]

It depends on exactly what the PCs are doing, what the creature is doing, and why they're each doing those things. Thinking about it fairly, Red Fel's argument works in reverse, too; even if you happen to have some 5th-level PCs walk around and become awed at a CR 15 dragon flying around doing, like, impressive things, as long as the PCs don't start a fight, that dragon's horde and hunting prospects are probably so vast that such a powerful being wouldn't waste the time and energy flying down and munching the PCs down for their petty little trinkets and total lack of nutritious value, for the same general reasons that the 15th-level PCs wouldn't generally make a point of wasting time hunting down every kobold that runs away when they might not give such lenience to a dragon that had just given them a difficult fight and has both magic items to loot and the potential to be dangerous in the near future.

[Crake]

I generally don't support the idea of dropping encounters on the PCs for with which they are woefully unable to cope. That said, the PCs choose where they wish to go; if they decide, despite all warnings to the contrary, to assault the capital armed only with torches and pitchforks, they should not be surprised that they're confronted by armies and archmages. But random encounters... No.

That said, that doesn't mean that the world levels up with the PCs. That's the opposite extreme. Suddenly every goblin has class levels and magic items? I don't see that unless it's being deliberately orchestrated. Rather, I see the PCs having the sense to pursue wealth and power, or the plot. And let's face it, killing Kobolds for pennies isn't as profitable at level 10 as it was at level 2. So you move up to Orcs, and from Orcs to cultists, from cultists to Thayans, from Thayans to Dragons, from Dragons to Evil Outsiders, and so forth. Bigger targets, fatter loot. The world isn't leveling up with the PCs; rather, the PCs are becoming bigger fish, and are looking for a bigger pond in which to swim.

this only really applies though if the players are adventuring as an occupation and not a means to achieve some kind of personal goal.

[Fizban]

If my players really really wanted to go somewhere they weren't supposed to I suppose I'd run what I had and see what happens, but I tend to break the fourth or fifth wall and tell them if something's a bad idea. Any area they've had their interest pointed in shouldn't be impossibly far out of their range, with hints regarding relative difficulty supplied or easily available. I'm so transparent this probably works to the detriment of the game: when running The Red Hand of Doom, the party was considering fighting the lich. Just considering, but I was like "yeah, [the wizard] knows liches are a big deal and their minimum level is likely a ways above you." Later when they considered it again on the road to meet the NPC I straight told them, "Look, I've buffed and customized every monster and NPC in the campaign to match your party and if you fight him he will kill at least one of you." Kinda ruins the tension but I really didn't want a long-running game to fall apart because someone decided to poke the bear, and it was quite a beastly build I'd borrowed.

[Nifft]

IMHO a lot of this comes down to communication.

Do the players know that combat is not the only possible interaction? Does the DM try to force combat to happen anyway? Or does the DM allow the players to interact with the consequences of the too-strong encounter without forcing the players to be the first-hand victims?

Like, if I roll an inappropriate dragon on the random encounter table, I'll have a dragon fly overhead and attack something nearby the PCs, or just swoop down and snatch one of the PC's currently-unridden horses, but it won't try to attack them directly. They know there are scary things in the environment, and now they have a reason to research one of those things -- since that dragon is obviously some kind of regional player -- and eventually confront it.

[noob]

"So you move up to Orcs, and from Orcs to cultists, from cultists to Thayans, from Thayans to Dragons, from Dragons to Evil Outsiders, and so forth. Bigger targets, fatter loot. The world isn't leveling up with the PCs; rather, the PCs are becoming bigger fish, and are looking for a bigger pond in which to swim. "
Why not starting by dragons and ending with goblins.
Dragons are so much infinitely dumb(according to the manuals and the stories with them) that a goblin with some wizard levels is going to be power-fuller than all the dragons of all the multiverses of dnd reunited against him.

[elonin]

I'm not a dm, but the games I've played in didn't have the feel of places we could go that wold would be over powered.

[ComaVision]

I like doing it very sparingly (similarly to cursed items). It's important to play up the adjectives so that the group gets the sense that they're outmatched though, as well as knowing they have other options.

[Xervous]

"So you move up to Orcs, and from Orcs to cultists, from cultists to Thayans, from Thayans to Dragons, from Dragons to Evil Outsiders, and so forth. Bigger targets, fatter loot. The world isn't leveling up with the PCs; rather, the PCs are becoming bigger fish, and are looking for a bigger pond in which to swim. "
Why not starting by dragons and ending with goblins.
Dragons are so much infinitely dumb(according to the manuals and the stories with them) that a goblin with some wizard levels is going to be power-fuller than all the dragons of all the multiverses of dnd reunited against him.

For a time I thought you were actually serious in your posts, good to know you're one of the trolls bringing flavor to this forum.



As for CR appropriate... every combat should be serving a purpose. If the story dictates that they're coming up against something that will cause them to struggle or TPK if they don't wise up fast, then so be it... of course an experienced GM should realize just what sorts of hints his players need.

[noob]

A goblin gets to TO tricks(like omniscifer at level 1) a lot sooner than a dragon.
"For a time I thought you were actually serious in your posts, good to know you're one of the trolls bringing flavor to this forum."
NO I am really serious on this post I truly believe in the superiority of goblins with class levels and that a goblin with 21 wizard levels can beat all the dragons with enough TO which is never used by dragons from stories.
There is many other posts where I am not serious but the previous one was serious and was speaking of the fact dragons in stories never did things as smart as human(other than the classical non sensic premonition power which always makes no sense(the creature could not possibly have enough elements for predicting that or he is omniscient but the author does not says it) or the "super technology" or the "smart battle plan" which is not half as smart at what have been done in real life) or used TO
You could say XXX story with omnipotent dragon but know that if in a story there is an omnipotent being it is always either being used as a Deus ex machina or he is not truly an element of the story or the author did made it omnipotent only in name.

[JoshuaZ]

Mostly what the title says. I'm all for balance and everyone having fun. Part of fun can be knowing that things can get wildly out of hand. For example the hobbits under the path while a nazgul sniffed for the ring. Its an iconic scene that was a popular illustration as long as the book has been out. The way I've seen it played out is 1 party is warned from going 'over there" and the adventurers decide to just ignore the advice knowing that that's the direction of loot and xp.

So am I off in left field somewhere and most DM's will include encounters a party can't hope to deal with? Or would anyone like to defend the strange world that levels up along with the players?

My players encountered in at least three occasions enemies where the CR was much higher than anything reasonable at all. In one case it was because they were deliberately going to a dragon oracle, and the fact that he was about 5 times the size of any dragon they had ever encountered before made it pretty clear not to mess with him. On another occasion, they dealt with a coven of witches where most of them were about the same level as the PCs but the leader of the coven was known for being one of the most powerful spellcasters in setting. Another occasion involved dealing with a power fey where I played up very much her completely high power level (e.g. teleporting in via more or DM fiat into a heavily warded area much of the wards of which were set up by an ancient archmage).

In general, one can also give PCs clues: there's a big difference between a set of caverns you happen to need to explore, and a cursed graveyard that is so legendary that people from halfway across the kingdom have heard of it.

But yeah, at the end of the day, some amount of reasonable adjusting still has to occur. And I don't know a great way of dealing with that other than just suspending disbelief. If the overall power level in a setting isn't that extreme it can be less of an issue. If one is say in Faerun where there are people who are third level adventurers and there are epic-level characters also who are common, it becomes less plausible.

[Amphetryon]

Mostly what the title says. I'm all for balance and everyone having fun. Part of fun can be knowing that things can get wildly out of hand. For example the hobbits under the path while a nazgul sniffed for the ring. Its an iconic scene that was a popular illustration as long as the book has been out. The way I've seen it played out is 1 party is warned from going 'over there" and the adventurers decide to just ignore the advice knowing that that's the direction of loot and xp.

So am I off in left field somewhere and most DM's will include encounters a party can't hope to deal with? Or would anyone like to defend the strange world that levels up along with the players?

In addition to several rational responses above mine, note that the game presupposes that a certain percentage of the encounters a party faces will be more powerful than they're supposed to be able to handle, just as it presupposes that a certain percentage of the encounters a party faces will be of the 'inebriated sickly peasant with a walking stick' variety for them to steamroll. In theory, this is to prevent the feeling that the world is nothing but an artificial Encounter Engine that always caters precisely to the party.