How the D&D Rules Work in #449

[Callista]

Your resident rules-lawyer is back! Once again I'm going to explain a bit about how the rules behind the strip work; and I'd like corrections, comments, and adjustments as usual.

So, we have an army of paladin ghost-martyrs. But what, exactly, can they do?

I'm just going to link to the SRDs, because they basically say what I want to say, and I type only 90wpm, which makes me lazy about typing a lot.

Well, first of all, there are benefits and drawbacks to being a ghost:
They're Incorporeal (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monsterTypes.html#incorporeal).

I've made a table of attacks and their effects, since people seem to be getting confused over incorporeality:
{table]Type of Attack|Effect
Mundane/Natural Weapon|Useless
Magical Weapon|50% miss
Ghost Touch weapon|As normal
Touch Spell|Useless
Most spells|50% miss
Positive/Negative Energy Spells|As normal
Force effects (Magic Missile)|As normal
Holy Water|50% miss
Supernatural ability|50% miss
Spell-like ability|50% miss
Nonmagical Energy|Useless
[/table]

Notice the special measures you need to take to hurt an incorporeal creature. One of the ways you can do it is to use magic, Xykon's strong suit. (He is running low on high-level spells by now, though.)
Also notice the difficulty a ghost has in affecting the material plane--physical attacks are now impossible without a magical or ghost-touch weapon.

The undead:
A ghost has the undead type (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monsterTypes.html#undead).
Notice all those nice immunities! Mind-affecting effects are among them--meaning that no matter how many Insanity balls Xykon bounces around, they'll stay sane. Also included are immunities to ability drain/damage, death effects, paralysis, and all mind-affecting effects.
However, they are now healed by negative energy (like an Inflict spell)--meaning that they've most likely lost all access to healing.
Some ghosts are bound to a location. If these are bound to the throne room or the Gate, they'll be less effective than they could be otherwise--and such a binding is likely, considering that their purpose is to protect the Gate, not to destroy Xykon.
Incorporeality allows ghosts to pass through walls--and floors--and ceilings. That means that they can surround Xykon in three dimensions, with twenty-six ghosts attacking at once, all with flanking bonuses. That doesn't count the ones attacking from farther away with Telekinesis or spells.


Ghosts:

"Ghost" (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersG.html#ghost) is a template you can add to a monster, including a monster with classes. That means the Paladins will keep their class levels, and add to that some rather interesting powers:
Check out the Special Attacks. There's eight possible ones, and the ghosts each have one to three of them. Lots of ability damage looks good, right? But back up--look at that Undead type again. That's right; Xykon is also undead; he isn't a "living creature", and he's immune to ability damage, among other things. Most of those special attacks won't be doing much damage to Xykon.
There's one thing the ghosts can use, though: Telekinesis (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsTtoZ.html#telekinesis), which, if a ghost has it, is usable once every 1d4 rounds. Basically, the ghosts can toss Xykon around like a rag doll, using Telekinesis to trip, grapple, and pin. Also, they can throw things at Xykon, or else throw Xykon himself. The saves for this are going to be easy to make; but the odds are against Xykon being unaffected because he will inevitably roll a 1.
+4 Turn Resistance. Even Redcloak Redcloak wouldn't be able to command (remember, he's evil) them easily, or command them all.
Unlike most undead, ghosts can have any alignment. Presumably, these ghosts are LG.


And here's the clincher: Rejuvenation.
When you destroy a ghost which hasn't fulfilled the purpose it stuck around for, it often doesn't stay dead. 1d20+HD against DC 16 means that even if Xykon destroys all the ghosts, more than half of them will come right back in 2d4 days. Now Xykon's on the other end of the "Dead guy who just keeps coming back" equation!

So, where's the balance of power now?
Well, Xykon's powerful; but he has many of the weaknesses of a spellcaster, and he's already wounded. If the ghosts can manage to disrupt his spellcasting, he'll be right back in his phylactery before long; the ghosts' Telekinesis power, usable once every 1d4 rounds, would probably overwhelm him by sheer numbers, even if the ghosts didn't have ghost-touch or magical weapons. (Mid-level Paladins usually have magical weapons; some may have ghost-touch weapons.) The fact that they are now undead nullifies a lot of Xykon's special abilities.

However, the ghosts in general are very vulnerable to Xykon's magic. They take full damage from it; and we've already seen that Xykon's capable of some nasty stuff. If he can keep his concentration, he'll probably fry quite a few of them with Fireballs and such. Also, their ability to affect the Material Plane is limited; if they have magical weapons, they'll only have a chance to hit 50% of the time. That Lay on Hands which requires physical contact can't be used anymore. Lay on Hands is a supernatural touch attack. Ghosts retain any supernatural abilities which they had in life. They can also use touch attacks (though not touch spells). I'll change my mind and assume Lay on Hands works.

Strategic Analysis
Overall, the ghosts have the advantage here. Xykon's best move is to teleport or fly out, ASAP, before they can trap him

But all is not lost for Xykon, either. After fleeing, he could come back and attack from afar, picking off the ghosts one by one. If he can manage this, and do what has to be done to the gate while defending himself from the ghosts as they re-form, as well as from the Order of the Stick, he may be able to accomplish what he's come for. Still, it just got a heck of a lot more difficult.

How did this happen?
There's no spell that ensures you come back as a ghost. However, there is a possibility: An Incantation (Unearthed Arcana). This is a specialized spell which has a specific purpose and is cast by means of a ritual; it's castable by non-spellcasters by the use of skill checks; and it can work for lower level characters than those who could cast a similar spell. If an Incantation was used to pull the paladins back as ghosts, it could have been done once, or done for each Paladin.

The possibility of Deathless
Deathless (from the Book of Exalted Deeds) are a form of positive-energy undead. They're Good-aligned, fueled by positive enrgy and generally stick around to fulfill some quest or purpose (rather than stubbornly clinging to life and causing random destruction, as undead often do). Their abilities are a lot like those of the undead; but if these ghosts are Deathless, then they'll be able to hurt Xykon quite a bit more, since they can use positive energy--something that's as 'deadly' to Xykon as an Inflict spell would be to a living creature.

The most likely form of deathless is the Deathless version of a ghost, the Sacred Watcher. A Sacred Watcher comes back from the afterlife to be the bodyguard of someone whom s/he guarded in life, and the abilities involved are similar to a ghost's, with less emphasis on fear and more on positive energy.

The Risen Martyr, a prestige class which allows a character who died for a cause to come back from the dead as a corporeal Deathless creature, has also been mentioned. However, the "corporeal" aspect of the class doesn't match the effect in the strip, so I'm ruling this one out.

[scwizard]

Soon has a brilliant energy weapon. Brilliant energy weapons + ghosts = pwnage. It's gg for Xykon.

[Callista]

Where'd you get the Brilliant Energy thing?

[Cyborg Pirate]

Are you sure they are ghosts and not deathless?

[Runolfr]

Additional notes:

Since the ghost-martyrs are incorporeal, there is a 50% chance that any spell Xykon tries will fail to affect them.
Ghost-martyrs that can cast spells themselves have a 50% chance of affecting Xykon.
An incorporeal touch attack could presumably be used in conjunction with Lay On Hands. Enough attacks of this sort could seriously harm Xykon.
Ghosts equipped with magic weapons have a 50% chance of affecting Xykon. This could be combined with special energy damage on weapons (holy, fire, etc.) if applicable as well as Smite Evil.With enough Paladins on him (attacking in three dimensions, presumably twenty-six could be adjacent to him at once), Xykon could be in serious trouble.

Of course, his phylactery is still outside with Redcloak, so he's not in danger of permanent destruction, yet.

[ZeroNumerous]

To the Deathless comment. Deathless are physical undead. Thats why we know they're ghosts.

Runolfr's List:

There are a few things you're wrong on.

1. True, unless he has Transdimensional spell, he's boned in that respect.
2. Cast spells. As a Paladin.
3. False. They're incorporeal. They cannot physically touch Xykon.
4. Very false. Without a ghost-touch weapon, it is completely irrelevant that they have weapons in the first place. Your equipment becomes incorporeal when you gain the Ghost template, therefore you lose everything that you could have potentially damaged the Lich with.

Brilliant Energy Comment: Actually, Brilliant Energy would be even -less- effective than a normal, mundane sword. Brilliant Energy weapons auto-lose versus undead. Xykon is, last time I checked, undead. Atleast with a mundane sword they can TK it to attack Xykon. Even if -one- sword was there, they'd all be able to simutaneously TK that one sword to attack Xykon 50 times or more.

[O'Shuva]

Soon has a brilliant energy weapon. Brilliant energy weapons + ghosts = pwnage. It's gg for Xykon.
A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects, though.

EDIT: And beaten. Oh well, at least I can add my weight to them being Deathless (BoED).

[RobbyPants]

+4 Turn Resistance. Even Redcloak will have trouble dealing with these
Will he? Redcloak is at least 13th level (as he's cast Destruction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html)), and it's mentioned that most of the paladins are low/mid level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html). Even with a +4, Redcloak should be able to affect most of them. The only advantage they have here is their numbers. With the turn resistance, he won't be able to get as many per attempt, and he'll run out of attempts.

[ZeroNumerous]

EDIT: And beaten. Oh well, at least I can add my weight to them being Deathless (BoED).

Deathless is a template that can be added to a corporeal creature. They are not corporeal. Ergo, they are not Deathless.

[Midnight Lurker]

Deathless is a template that can be added to a corporeal creature. They are not corporeal. Ergo, they are not Deathless.

But after you add the Deathless quality you could then make it incorporeal.

Order of operations FTW.

(And anyway, I see no reason beyond that rule why you couldn't have a ghostly deathless. That's the sort of thing that you houserule without even thinking twice, because it's just kinda dumb.)

Edit: I looked up deathless (BoED, page 157) and you are in fact just plain wrong. "Little more than discarnate souls, sometimes wrapped in material flesh, often incorporeal and barely more substantial than a soul in its purest state."

Edited again: Deathless is a creature type, not a template.

[ZeroNumerous]

I was thinking of the Deathless from Libris Mortis, which are actual, physical good undead.

Either way, they actually cannot be Deathless because they're guarding a location, not a person. The Deathless from BoED requires you to guard a person, not a place.

[Roderick_BR]

(...)
An incorporeal touch attack could presumably be used in conjunction with Lay On Hands. Enough attacks of this sort could seriously harm Xykon.(...)
So, the ghost paladins can hug him to (true)death XD

[Porthos]

Deathless is a template that can be added to a corporeal creature. They are not corporeal. Ergo, they are not Deathless.

A) I don't see where in the Book of Exalted Deeds it says that you apply this as a template to only corporeal creatures.

B) The description of Deathless says that they are "often incorporeal".

C) The Sacred Watcher is both Deathless and Incorporeal.

Ergo, the Ghost-Martyrs can be Deathless. :smalltongue:

[Poppatomus]

I was thinking of the Deathless from Libris Mortis, which are actual, physical good undead.

Either way, they actually cannot be Deathless because they're guarding a location, not a person. The Deathless from BoED requires you to guard a person, not a place.

Though I do think they are more likely ghosts (after all Soon does call them ghosts) there could be a loophole in that they are Soon's reinforcements. Though he is a ghost himself there is no reason I can think of why one couldn't become deathless to protect a ghost the same way one might become deathless to protect an outsider.

Again, 9/10 that they are ghosts, but if they were deathless the backstory could be justified.

And, oh man, had they come back as risen martyrs, that really would have been something.

[Porthos]

I was thinking of the Deathless from Libris Mortis, which are actual, physical good undead.

Either way, they actually cannot be Deathless because they're guarding a location, not a person. The Deathless from BoED requires you to guard a person, not a place.

Actually you are only thinking of Sacred Watcher. Deathless is just a Template that means Person Being Held Together By Positive Energy As Opposed To Negative Energy.

Or, to put it another way: All Sacred Watchers are Deathless, but not all Deathless are Sacred Watchers. :smalltongue:

Besides, you could easily tweak the Sacred Watcher so it deals with an item (The Sapphire Gem) instead of a person. It doesn't change the rule crunchiness of the creature in the slightest. :smallsmile:

[Midnight Lurker]

I was thinking of the Deathless from Libris Mortis, which are actual, physical good undead.

Either way, they actually cannot be Deathless because they're guarding a location, not a person. The Deathless from BoED requires you to guard a person, not a place.

No, in fact, it does not so require at all.

I think you're confusing some of the specific varieties of deathless creatures listed in BoED with the deathless type as a whole.

And even then, the Crypt Warden (page 167) is a guardian of tombs and sacred places rather than people.

Whatever the paladins are, they're clearly not crypt wardens (corporeal) or sacred watchers (as you said, guardians of a person), but that doesn't mean they can't be deathless, it only means they aren't those particular TYPES of deathless, in the same way that not all undead are ghosts or vampires.

[Midnight Lurker]

Actually you are only thinking of Sacred Watcher. Deathless is just a Template that means Person Being Held Together By Positive Energy As Opposed To Negative Energy.

Or, to put it another way: All Sacred Watchers are Deathless, but not all Deathless are Sacred Watchers. :smalltongue:

Besides, you could easily tweak the Sacred Watcher so it deals with an item (The Sapphire Gem) instead of a person. It doesn't change the rule crunchiness of the creature in the slightest. :smallsmile:

Correct on all points, except that it's a creature type and not a template. Very different things, people. :smallwink:

[Porthos]

Though I do think they are more likely ghosts (after all Soon does call them ghosts) there could be a loophole in that they are Soon's reinforcements. Though he is a ghost himself there is no reason I can think of why one couldn't become deathless to protect a ghost the same way one might become deathless to protect an outsider.

Don't forget that we are dealing with a culture that sees nothing wrong with using DnD terms as just a descriptive title (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html). :smallwink: So if we can have people who are samurai, but not have any levels in the class, then we can have people call themselves ghosts without actually having the ghost template. :smallsmile:

[CardinalFang]

Don't forget that we are dealing with a culture that sees nothing wrong with using DnD terms as just a descriptive title (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html). :smallwink: So if we can have people who are samurai, but not have any levels in the class, then we can have people call themselves ghosts without actually having the ghost template. :smallsmile:
Yeah. Plus, I think if I came back from the dead in some incorporeal form, I'd just call myself a ghost to save time.

[Dausuul]

4. Very false. Without a ghost-touch weapon, it is completely irrelevant that they have weapons in the first place. Your equipment becomes incorporeal when you gain the Ghost template, therefore you lose everything that you could have potentially damaged the Lich with.

Nope. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm), in the "Ghostly Equipment" section (at the bottom of the page):


A weapon of +1 or better magical enhancement, however, can harm material creatures when the ghost manifests, but any such attack has a 50% chance to fail unless the weapon is a ghost touch weapon (just as magic weapons can fail to harm the ghost).

So the ghosts can in fact harm Xykon if they have magic weapons, though most of them will have a 50% miss chance.


Will he? Redcloak is at least 13th level (as he's cast Destruction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html)), and it's mentioned that most of the paladins are low/mid level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html). Even with a +4, Redcloak should be able to affect most of them. The only advantage they have here is their numbers. With the turn resistance, he won't be able to get as many per attempt, and he'll run out of attempts.

Not all of these paladins are low/mid level. Remember, the paladins who were slain in #448 are just reinforcements for an existing force. Soon Kim in particular is epic level or close to it, and will laugh at Redcloak's feeble effort to rebuke.

[Poppatomus]

Don't forget that we are dealing with a culture that sees nothing wrong with using DnD terms as just a descriptive title (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html). :smallwink: So if we can have people who are samurai, but not have any levels in the class, then we can have people call themselves ghosts without actually having the ghost template. :smallsmile:

fair point, in the absence of evidence I may be placing too much weight on the claim. And Ghost-martyr certainly implies risen martyr as much as Ghost.

[slayerx]

4. Very false. Without a ghost-touch weapon, it is completely irrelevant that they have weapons in the first place. Your equipment becomes incorporeal when you gain the Ghost template, therefore you lose everything that you could have potentially damaged the Lich with.


Actually ghost weapons against Material oppenents fuction the same way as Material weapons do against ghosts. If the weapon is normal and does not have ghost tough, then yes it is useless... however, if the weapon has atleast a +1 to it, then the weapon has a 50% chance of succeeding... and considering some of the equitment those paladins were using along with the fact that they are mid-level characters, i think it's easy to guess that quite a few of them have weapons that are atleast +1 if not higher...

Not to mention, that Soon Kim may not be the only ghost to return to guard the throne... they may others... i think Hinjo implied more than one ghost was there... and more then likely, any other ghosts there are going to be paladins that had either lived long lives or died in battle... meaning they too would be of decent level and have some good equitment

Ghosts also seem to have a number of good special attacks... but i don't think they would work on Xykon sicne he is undead and the attacks i think only effect living creatures

[ZeroNumerous]

Oh, so a 50% chance. But if Xykon takes his action to cast Animate Dead on the corpses of the guards he killed, then it disarms all the dead Paladins sans the pre-existing ones.

As for Soon, it's entirely possible that Xykon is equal to, higher than, his level. I doubt Soon is epic, though 17-18 is entirely reasonable.

[Porthos]

Oh, so a 50% chance. But if Xykon takes his action to cast Animate Dead on the corpses of the guards he killed, then it disarms all the dead Paladins sans the pre-existing ones.

I'm sorry, I'm not following you here. :smallconfused: Are you saying that if Xykon Animates the bodies on the floor, then the Ghost Martyrs somehow lose their weapons? If so, I don't see why, since all of the Ghost Martyrs equipment has already been etherealized and thus the Ghost Martyrs would get to keep them regardless what happened to the original earthbound copy of the weapons.

[slayerx]

Oh, so a 50% chance. But if Xykon takes his action to cast Animate Dead on the corpses of the guards he killed, then it disarms all the dead Paladins sans the pre-existing ones.


I'm not so sure about that... the discription for the ghostly equitment states that the weapons must be taking by another creature...
Even if the dead paladins are reanimated the weapons are still in the possession of the dead paladins; it may be an animated undead, but it's still the same physical body... Xykon would need to go to them an actually take the weapons from the corpses, a task which while being bombarded by ghosts, will not be an easy... nto to emntion the use of telekenisis to take the weapons back from Xykon

Though even if some do get disarmed, then can toss around Xykon with some telekenis while the others attack him... that's alot of tossing around right there


'm sorry, I'm not following you here. Are you saying that if Xykon Animates the bodies on the floor, then the Ghost Martyrs somehow lose their weapons? If so, I don't see why, since all of the Ghost Martyrs equipment has already been etherealized and thus the Ghost Martyrs would get to keep them regardless what happened to the original earthbound copy of the weapons.
not quite... the description on Ghostly Equitment states that the ghost will loose the equitement if another creautre task his physical weapon

The ethral weapons are just copies and will fade away if the orginal is taken by another creature

[ZeroNumerous]

Yes, they're animated paladins. But thats not what it's important. They're now animated zombies or skeletons. And Porthos, read the Ghostly Equipment section. If the physical copy of their equipment is taken away, then they no longer have the ethereal version.

And even if zombies and skeletons don't count, then Xykon just orders all the skeletons to give their weapons to one another.

EDIT: In fact, lets go even further. He orders them to randomly change weapons every round and telling a skeleton that he cannot take his own weapon. Xykon even ensures they're all skeletons, and orders them to disrobe, therefore it becomes impossible to tell who's whom and who has which paladin's weapon.

[slayerx]

And even if zombies and skeletons don't count, then Xykon just orders all the skeletons to give their weapons to one another.

EDIT: In fact, lets go even further. He orders them to randomly change weapons every round and telling a skeleton that he cannot take his own weapon. Xykon even ensures they're all skeletons, and orders them to disrobe, therefore it becomes impossible to tell who's whom and who has which paladin's weapon.

Not so sure, the discription talks about the weapons SEIZED or TAKEN, not GIVEN... may need a DM ruling on that one

Grant it, it won't be easy for Xykon to animate the dead... with dozens of Ghosts attacking him each landing a hit 50% of the time (and some using telekenesis), many of Xykon's spells like animate dead may just fizzle

[ZeroNumerous]

Slayerx, do you know how an undead's concentration check functions? Since undead lack con scores, it specifically says that an undead creature making a concentration check uses it's Charisma bonus instead of it's Constitution bonus. Meaning Xykon has at least (assuming a full 21 ranks) a +25 before the roll.

And honestly, if you're gonna argue semantics, then he orders the skeletons to take one another's weapons. Since he didn't tell them to resist, and being good, mindless undead, they don't resist. The weapons are seized, and the effect is the same. The cost of the effect is a whole free action.

[slayerx]

Slayerx, do you know how an undead's concentration check functions? Since undead lack con scores, it specifically says that an undead creature making a concentration check uses it's Charisma bonus instead of it's Constitution bonus. Meaning Xykon has at least (assuming a full 21 ranks) a +25 before the roll.

And do recall that an unnamed paladin managed to make Xykon's Metero swarm (a much higher level spell) Fizzle...

[Porthos]

Yes, they're animated paladins. But thats not what it's important. They're now animated zombies or skeletons. And Porthos, read the Ghostly Equipment section. If the physical copy of their equipment is taken away, then they no longer have the ethereal version.

And even if zombies and skeletons don't count, then Xykon just orders all the skeletons to give their weapons to one another.

EDIT: In fact, lets go even further. He orders them to randomly change weapons every round and telling a skeleton that he cannot take his own weapon. Xykon even ensures they're all skeletons, and orders them to disrobe, therefore it becomes impossible to tell who's whom and who has which paladin's weapon.

Even if they lose all of their weapons, they can still dogpile Xykon with Lay on Hands (which channels Positive Energy). After a lot of discussion, the consensus that I've seen states that Lay on Hands (being a Supernatural Touch Attack) would bypass Xykon's DR.

Also, there is every chance in the world that, presuming these are Deathless Paladins, that they would have some special Positive Energy Attack, much in the same way that Undead have Negative Energy Attacks. :smallsmile:

[FujinAkari]

Actually ghost weapons against Material oppenents fuction the same way as Material weapons do against ghosts.

This does not seem supported by the rules. There is nothing in the incorporeal subtype description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype), or in the ghost-touch item description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm) that supports this idea. The one thing that -is- stated is that a ghost can use ghost-type weapons (he usually cannot physically interact with the world) but nothing ever mentions incorp creatures ever having a problem using physical attacks, the Spectre (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/spectre.htm) sure doesn't!

[chibibar]

This does not seem supported by the rules. There is nothing in the incorporeal subtype description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype), or in the ghost-touch item description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm) that supports this idea. The one thing that -is- stated is that a ghost can use ghost-type weapons (he usually cannot physically interact with the world) but nothing ever mentions incorp creatures ever having a problem using physical attacks, the Spectre (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/spectre.htm) sure doesn't!


Agree. There are some instances that I personally allow ghost guardians type to have weapons and able to attack PC. (just like in the movies)

[AKA_Bait]

We might also want to note that the spell Create Undead takes an hour to cast. Not that the Giant seems to be working with that casting time but still...

EDIT: Wait, nevermind, ignore me. I was looking at Create Undead rather than Animate Dead. Of course Xycon would still need to run around touching all the fallen paladins to animate them. Not that the Giant seems to be working with that one either, or the material cost.

[Toper]

It's sort of weird that you can animate corpses whose owners are already undead, but I don't see anything in the rules forbidding it.

Still, I don't think Xykon can win this one in a straight-up fight. Ghost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm)-Soon alone might well be nearly a match for him (as Dorukan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) was not trivial to defeat), depending on how many Meteor Swarms Xykon can hit him with, and the rest of the paladins are obviously capable of doing additional damage and disrupting spells. If the other ghosts all used the no-save "Grapple" effect of their Telekinesis ability, they might even prevent Xykon from escaping, but that sort of mass-poultergeisting isn't the sort of thing that seems likely to go into the comic.

It's also rather difficult for him to leave and then pick ghosts off afterward from a distance; they won't manifest while he's not there, and there aren't a lot of spells that affect ethereal creatures. Xykon might well only know Magic Missile, in fact, and that's limited by line of sight.

edit:

This does not seem supported by the rules. There is nothing in the incorporeal subtype description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype), or in the ghost-touch item description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm) that supports this idea.
The Ghost description is quite clear that manifesting ghosts can wield magical weapons with a 50% miss chance, or ghost touch weapons with no miss chance. I think this is a special property of the manifesting ghost, not a general characteristic of incorporeal creatures.

[Chosen]

Do we know that they are Ghosts and not Sacred Watchers from Book of Exalted Deeds (though Sacred Watchers are supposed to undead good body-guards but i am sure Rich can make an exception).

This would give a few fun abilities vs. Xykon including touch attacks they can use 5 times per day for 2d8+5 Positive damage.

[Runolfr]

1. True, unless he has Transdimensional spell, he's boned in that respect.
2. Cast spells. As a Paladin.
3. False. They're incorporeal. They cannot physically touch Xykon.
4. Very false. Without a ghost-touch weapon, it is completely irrelevant that they have weapons in the first place. Your equipment becomes incorporeal when you gain the Ghost template, therefore you lose everything that you could have potentially damaged the Lich with.

1) I would say that Xykon is unlikely to have that feat, as it's not in the core books.
2) Spells are actually a better option than I thought; a ghost's spells work normally on corporeal targets when the ghost manifests, unless they require a touch attack. At least some of the Sapphire Guard ghosts appear to be multi-class characters with levels as spell casters.
3) I though it might be possible, but the rule that makes touch spells ineffective would certainly apply to Laying On Hands, as well.
4) "A weapon of +1 or better magical enhancement, however, can harm material creatures when the ghost manifests, but any such attack has a 50% chance to fail unless the weapon is a ghost touch weapon (just as magic weapons can fail to harm the ghost)."

[goldgecko4]

The way I look at it, is that ghosts (yes, all of them), retain their spell-casting powers and supernatural abilities. Paladins of an adequate level have numerous spell to aid in their fight against undead, including, but not limited to Cure Serious Wounds (3d8+1/level positive energy touch attack), Dispel Evil (+4 bonus against attacks by evil creatures), and Holy Sword (Weapon becomes +5, deals +2d6 damage against evil). And even a first level paladin, of course, has Lay On Hands, which is pretty much FTW right there.

[Runolfr]

The way I look at it, is that ghosts (yes, all of them), retain their spell-casting powers and supernatural abilities. Paladins of an adequate level have numerous spell to aid in their fight against undead, including, but not limited to Cure Serious Wounds (3d8+1/level positive energy touch attack), Dispel Evil (+4 bonus against attacks by evil creatures), and Holy Sword (Weapon becomes +5, deals +2d6 damage against evil). And even a first level paladin, of course, has Lay On Hands, which is pretty much FTW right there.

Cure Serious Wounds and Lay On Hands won't work. Spells (and supernatural abilities) that require a touch attack are not effective on corporeal opponents.

[Friv]

I just figured that "Ghost-Martyr Of The Sapphire Guard" is a special template that can be applied only to Sapphire Guard paladins.

*shrugs*

[MReav]

Spells can affect incorporeal beings (and presumably vice versa), though they have a 50% chance of screwing up, unless they are force effects, positive or negative energy effects, ghost touch weapons (at which point, they are as effective as their ability to hit the opponent). I'm more curious about the Magic Jar effect... and whether or not they'd possess Xykon and have him get whupped in front of everyone.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype

[FujinAkari]

Cure Serious Wounds and Lay On Hands won't work. Spells (and supernatural abilities) that require a touch attack are not effective on corporeal opponents.

This is incorrect. NOTHING in the incorporeal subtype description mentions them being unable to use physical attacks, and the Spectre (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/spectre.htm) uses these attacks to exclusion. You're thinking of ethereal creatures, which can't attack physically.

[FujinAkari]

The Ghost description is quite clear that manifesting ghosts can wield magical weapons with a 50% miss chance, or ghost touch weapons with no miss chance. I think this is a special property of the manifesting ghost, not a general characteristic of incorporeal creatures.

Correct, if we were talking about Ghosts, which we aren't. These are Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard, assuming they have -exactly- the same restrictions of ghosts would be fallacious, especially when those restrictions are not shared with the rest of the incorporeals...

[happyturtle]

I think this is a house rule template, and that Lay On Hands will work. I can't see a ghost being able to punch a corporeal person, but being able to channel positive energy makes sense.

[teratorn]

I can't see a ghost being able to punch a corporeal person, but being able to channel positive energy makes sense.
Of course the Giant may simply skip to Xykon talking from Redcloak's soul-hiding thingie, leaving all this unanswered.

What I wonder is about Soon, he's in some way bound to the gate. He seems translucent like the others so he's probably also a ghostly entity. Can someone who died of old age become a martyr or does this mean he died fighting in his very old age? I wonder also if these martyrs can be resurrected or if that is something you need to give up.

[Tordek]

There's another possibility; Rich could be using something from the Ghostwalk D&D 3.5 book. There's lots of crazy rules in there.

[Twilight Jack]

Yeah, but I was under the impression that Rich tries to stay Core as often as possible. . . What's the core status of the Hecuva, the Eye of Fear and Flame, and the DK? If we're now scouring obscure Spooky Wizard sourcebooks, that's really going to lay a difficulty on those among us who like to analyze every element of the rules at work in OotS.

[happyturtle]

:redcloak: (noticing amulet just got bigger) WTF? What happened here?
:xykon: ...I don't want to talk about it. Time to take our unstoppable army of hobgoblins and retreat. We have to choose another gate.

[Runolfr]

This is incorrect. NOTHING in the incorporeal subtype description mentions them being unable to use physical attacks, and the Spectre (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/spectre.htm) uses these attacks to exclusion. You're thinking of ethereal creatures, which can't attack physically.

I was referring specifically to spells that require a touch attack. The rule says...

"When a spellcasting ghost manifests, its spells continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally unless the spells rely on touch. A manifested ghost’s touch spells don’t work on nonethereal targets."

[Kreistor]

In terms of defense of the Ghosts vs. Offense of Xykon, They are very difficult for X to hurt. That's an advantage, certainly.

But in terms of offense of the ghosts vs. Xykon's defenses, Xykon is even better off. He is immune to the vast majority of a Ghost or incorporeal's attacks. They're unaffected by mind-affecting, so fears and such don't touch him. Undead are immune to stat drain and physical stat damage, so unless these incorporeals gain a mental stat damage ability (not inherent in the ghost template... that's drain), their incorporeal touch attacks are useless.

Incorporeal can't pick up weapons unless the weapon has the Ghost Touch special ability. If there's one of those around, we know Xykon has Shatter as a spell known, so it won't last long.

In short, Xykon will have a problem dealing damage, but he can. The ghosts cannot hurt Xykon.

Unless the Giant allows the ghosts to use their Lay on Hands. If he allows that, then Xykon go boom.

[Innis Cabal]

brilliant energy does squat against undead

[AyuVince]

Have you rules lawyers ever considered the fact that Rich frequently bends the rules for dramatic purpose or "invents" additional material like the Dashing Swordsman PrC? The ghost-martyrs might be a new form of incorporeal deathless, or they might be something completely different altogether. Maybe the OotS world has a new undead template which is not part of the SRD.

[Grasilich]

Thanks for the write-up, Callista, these posts are always pretty helpful for those of us that are rules-curious.

[FujinAkari]

"When a spellcasting ghost manifests, its spells continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally unless the spells rely on touch. A manifested ghost’s touch spells don’t work on nonethereal targets."

And we still aren't talking about ghosts, manifesting or no :P

[Runolfr]

And we still aren't talking about ghosts, manifesting or no :P

That remains to be seen, doesn't it?

[David Argall]

It's quite sufficient to simply say these are ghost paladins and leave it at that. Indeed, there is a serious advantage to doing so. Ghosts lingering around to guard a particular place is what ghosts do. [Tho this seems another reason not to be a paladin... "Congratulations, as a reward for getting killed in the line of duty, you get to stand 1000 years of guard duty."]

Moreover, ghosts keep on returning no matter how often you kill them. Our lich presumably needs some quiet time to make use of the gate. How is he going to get that when the ghosts keep on coming around? So even if the lich beats up the ghosts, they are still in his way, and it will take a major effort to use the gate if he can manage it at all.

[Ozar]

The only special attack/abililty that all ghosts have is Manifestation.

Corrupting Gaze, Corrupting Touch, Draining Touch, Frightful Moan, Horrific Appearance, Malevolence, and Telekinesis are all optional abilities. A ghost may have 1-3 of them.

So while some of the ghosts may have Telekinesis or Malevolence, it's not going to be a roomful.

Also, from the SRD:


A manifested ghost’s touch spells don’t work on nonethereal targets.

[Porthos]

I was referring specifically to spells that require a touch attack. The rule says...

"When a spellcasting ghost manifests, its spells continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally unless the spells rely on touch. A manifested ghost’s touch spells don’t work on nonethereal targets."

Lay on Hands is a Supernatural ability, not a Spell-like ability. :smallsmile: Thus there is room for interpetation on that front.

Also, manifested creatures are specifically allowed to use their touch attacks that they had in life. It seems to me that Lay on Hands would be considered a touch attack so it's still in the ballgame. :smallsmile:

[Ozar]

Lay on Hands is a Supernatural ability, not a Spell-like ability. :smallsmile: Thus there is room for interpetation on that front.

Also, manifested creatures are specifically allowed to use their touch attacks that they had in life. It seems to me that Lay on Hands would be considered a touch attack so it's still in the ballgame. :smallsmile:

The text you quoted is in reference to spells, yes, but that's because of the previous point that they can't touch things on the material plane.


Attack: A ghost retains all the attacks of the base creature, although those relying on physical contact do not affect creatures that are not ethereal.

They're allowed to use their touch attacks while manifested, yes. But NOT on corporeal creatures.

In short, WINDMILLS GENESTEALERS GHOSTS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! :smalltongue:

[Callista]

Will he? Redcloak is at least 13th level (as he's cast Destruction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html)), and it's mentioned that most of the paladins are low/mid level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html). Even with a +4, Redcloak should be able to affect most of them. The only advantage they have here is their numbers. With the turn resistance, he won't be able to get as many per attempt, and he'll run out of attempts.Oops, yes, I wasn't precise enough with that one. I should have said that Redcloak wouldn't be able to command (remember, he's evil) them easily, or command them all--not that vague "will have trouble dealing with".

I also didn't anticipate the 3-d nature of combat versus incorporeals--very nice catch.

[Ariko]

Manifestation (Su)

Every ghost has this ability. A ghost dwells on the Ethereal Plane and, as an ethereal creature, it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world. When a ghost manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane. A manifested ghost can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. A manifested ghost can pass through solid objects at will, and its own attacks pass through armor. A manifested ghost always moves silently. A manifested ghost can strike with its touch attack or with a ghost touch weapon (see Ghostly Equipment, below). A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.

touch spells dont work..but being a supernatural ability and not a spell, would lay on hands fall under the category of touch attack? sorry for my inexperience with 3.0/35 rules..and long time since I played 2nd edition..

[Innis Cabal]

i am guessing they are not your simple ghosts.....

[Midnight Lurker]

If (as is proper) they're deathless instead of undead, then they probably have a set of abilities entirely different from those granted by the Ghost template. Remember, not everything ghostly is a ghost, even if the word is used.

Also, if deathless, Redcloak couldn't rebuke or command them... but he could try to turn or destroy them.

[Ozar]

touch spells dont work..but being a supernatural ability and not a spell, would lay on hands fall under the category of touch attack? sorry for my inexperience with 3.0/35 rules..and long time since I played 2nd edition..

Against Living creatures, "touch attack" only applies to ghosts with the Corrupting Touch or Draining Touch special abilities (Which are both useless against non-living creatures.)

[Porthos]

They're allowed to use their touch attacks while manifested, yes. But NOT on corporeal creatures.

In short, WINDMILLS GENESTEALERS GHOSTS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! :smalltongue:

The thing is the part of the description you quoted only refers to the baseline ghost, not when it is manifested. :smalltongue:

Let's break this down, shall we? :smallsmile:

Manifestation (Su)
Every ghost has this ability. A ghost dwells on the Ethereal Plane and, as an ethereal creature, it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world.

So far, so good. These sentances are perfectly in line with the "although those relying on physical contact do not affect creatures that are not ethereal" part of the stat block.


When a ghost manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane.


A manifested ghost can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source.

Again, so far so good, this means that there are special circumstances where a manifested ghost can be harmed by items. And, IIRC, the decription for Incorporeal means that the same restictions are placed on the ghost when it attacks.


A manifested ghost can pass through solid objects at will, and its own attacks pass through armor. A manifested ghost always moves silently. A manifested ghost can strike with its touch attack or with a ghost touch weapon (see Ghostly Equipment, below).

Now we are still in the section where it talks about what a ghost can or can not do while being Manifested. It says nothing in this part of the description that the touch attack only affects incorporeal creatures.


A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.

When a spellcasting ghost is not manifested and is on the Ethereal Plane, its spells cannot affect targets on the Material Plane, but they work normally against ethereal targets. When a spellcasting ghost manifests, its spells continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally unless the spells rely on touch. A manifested ghost’s touch spells don’t work on nonethereal targets.

And here is the bone of contention. The stat block specifically says that a Touch Spell doesn't work against non ethereal opponents, but makes no mention of that restriction about touch attacks. Heck, it even goes as far as to say that the touch attack ignores armor (unless it is made out of force). After all, 3.0/3.5 is nothing if not anal when it comes to these sorts of things. :smallwink: If a touch attack couldn't affect non-ethereal critters, it would say so.

Finally, the if you compare the description of Ethereal and Incorporeal you will see that Incorporeal creatures can physically attack corporeal creatures while Ethereal can't.

So unless you can point me to a FAQ from WotC that says otherwise, I'm going to say that a Ghost when it is Manifested, and thus Incorporeal on the Material Plane can indeed use it's touch attacks. :smallsmile:


Against Living creatures, "touch attack" only applies to ghosts with the Corrupting Touch or Draining Touch special abilities (Which are both useless against non-living creatures.)

Ghosts also get to keep the special abilities it had in life. Thus if it had a Touch Attack in life it would have one as a Ghost.

And thanks for bringing that up, BTW. :smallsmile:


Draining Touch (Su)
A ghost that hits a living target with its incorporeal touch attack drains 1d4 points from any one ability score it selects. On each such successful attack, the ghost heals 5 points of damage to itself. Against ethereal opponents, it adds its Strength modifier to attack rolls only. Against nonethereal opponents, it adds its Dexterity modifier to attack rolls only.

Notice how it says nothing about it's touch attack only being good against incorperal creatures? In fact, it goes out of it's way to say what happens when a ghost uses it on ethereal creatures.

Therefore, ghosts CAN use touch attacks on corpeal creatures when they are manifested. :smallbiggrin:

[Ozar]

It can use its touch attacks while manifested against Ethereal creatures or it's special ability touch attacks against living ones. Otherwise it needs a magical weapon or spells to affect the material plane. Given that it needs a magical weapon/spells to do that, why would its bare hands work? They wouldn't.

[Porthos]

Given that it needs a magical weapon/spells to do that, why would its bare hands work? They wouldn't.

Well, if we're going to try and be logical about this.... :smalltongue:

No, bare hands by themselves wouldn't work. But bare hands that were delivering a Supernatural attack should work, with a possible 50% miss chance. If a hunk of steel that is carring an enchanement can work, why cant a hand that is carrying an supernatural enchantment?

Regardless, I think we are now at the stage of arguing around in circles. Again, if someone can point me to a FAQ/Sage Advice that says that Ghosts can't use their inherited Touch Attacks while manifested, all is well and good. I'll think it is a stupid ruling on WotC's part, but I'll live with it. :smallsmile:

Till then, I think I will bow out of this part of the debate. :smallsmile:

[slayerx]

i am guessing they are not your simple ghosts.....

I kinda think so too...
I mean, Ghosts may be the standard, but ghosts generally have a lot of negative sounding abilities... Such as Corrupting Touch/gaze, Horrific moan, and frisghtful appearace... all very ghost skills, but not something i can really imagine the Ghost Martyrs to have... I would imagine them to have more postive like ghost abilties.

[Nahmer]

Xykon does know the ghostform spell. There's nothing stopping him from casting it, moving back and casting (ethereal) meteor swarm. By becoming undead / deathless, most of the paladins hit points actually went down since they've lost their Con-based bonus hp. Even if they manage to make their saves, half of 24d6 is still going to kill any paladin of 6 HD or lower (and he still wouldn't get any experience for killing them). Soon is the real challenge.

[Callista]

Wow, we've got some good rules-lawyers around here. OK, I've updated my original post for what I see as the most likely accurate version.

[Ozar]

Well, if we're going to try and be logical about this.... :smalltongue:

No, bare hands by themselves wouldn't work. But bare hands that were delivering a Supernatural attack should work, with a possible 50% miss chance. If a hunk of steel that is carring an enchanement can work, why cant a hand that is carrying an supernatural enchantment?

Let me paraphrase you there.


No, bare hands by themselves wouldn't work. But bare hands that were delivering a Spell should work, with a possible 50% miss chance. If a hunk of steel that is carring an enchanement can work, why cant a hand that is carrying an magical enchantment?

See the problem? Spells delivered by touch attacks are magic, yet they cannot reach corporeal creatures (And corporeal creatures cannot reach incorporeal or ethereal ones with them.) I'm inclined to believe that if it were the case that Supernatural or Spell-Like attacks were an exception, it would have been mentioned as such. As it is I think the part where it says Manifesting ghosts can't affect corporeal creatures with touch spells is a blanket statement for all forms of magic attacks. Again, let me make myself clear.

They can USE touch attacks while Manifested. It's just that only specific Ghost-abilities can be used to AFFECT corporeal creatures. Otherwise they're limited to using them against other Incorporeal creatures or Ethereal ones (Which are affected normally unlike corporeal creatures.)

Therefore if Xykon were to go Ethereal or become Incorporeal himself, they could affect him with those while Manifested, and they can still affect each other (Though since they're undead, it would serve little constructive purpose in the case of Lay on Hands.)

I am NOT saying they are unable to USE Touch Attacks while Manifested. I am arguing that there are things they are unable to AFFECT.

Use Vs. Affect. There's a difference. :smallsmile:

[Serenity]

Is there any reason that a large percentage of them couldn't have ghost touch weaponry?

[Ozar]

Oh and one other thing to take into account for this battle.

Seriously this could really, really ruin things for you if true. Only read if you don't care about spoilers

Xykon still has the MITD. #450 sounds like a nice number for a big surprise like that. This was not my idea FTR, a friend on another forum thought of it.

[Ozar]

Is there any reason that a large percentage of them couldn't have ghost touch weaponry?

It would cost a fortune. Over 8,000G a pop. Besides that, unless they were lying around it would have taken too long to forge so many. And that's assuming they even prepared for this. I don't think the Sapphire Guard realized they were going to be called upon to fight from beyond the grave like that.

[Bauglir]

Ozar:

Ah, but the rules often make distinctions between Supernatural and Spell-like abilities. One provokes AoOs and one doesn't, and they are affected differently by Anti-magic fields. So one cannot paraphrase that way (even if the two listed differences aren't applicable, they are still different categories). And spells themselves are even further away from Supernatural abilities than Spell-like abilities are.

[Ozar]

Ozar:

Ah, but the rules often make distinctions between Supernatural and Spell-like abilities. One provokes AoOs and one doesn't, and they are affected differently by Anti-magic fields. So one cannot paraphrase that way (even if the two listed differences aren't applicable, they are still different categories). And spells themselves are even further away from Supernatural abilities than Spell-like abilities are.

But my point is that there was no such distinction made in the description.

[Serenity]

It would cost a fortune. Over 8,000G a pop. Besides that, unless they were lying around it would have taken too long to forge so many. And that's assuming they even prepared for this. I don't think the Sapphire Guard realized they were going to be called upon to fight from beyond the grave like that.

8,000 gp a pop for the royal family of a bustling metropolis to equip the ghost army that's the ultimate defense against the end of all creation. Sounds like a deal to me. And that's not counting the various paladins that would have done battle against ghosts, shadows, spectres, etc. in the course of their crusades.

[GreenArmadillo]

Regardless of their creature type, the assumption that Xykon can cut through multiple ghosts per round depends on their being lower level than he is. The mid-level newbies he just slaughtered are the reinforcements. What level would Soon have been to have enough wealth to become the ruler of Azure city and to recruit enough of the noblest of samurai (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) as cohorts to found the Sapphire Guard? As Shojo recounted, the Guard was large enough to mount a worldwide crusade to eradicate knowledge of the Gates, and lasted through not only the remainder of Soon's retired life, but Shojo's father's prime, and then 47 years of Shojo's reign. So, call it a 100-year-old order, give or take. How many of that order would have been in the mid-teens or higher level-wise?

Let's just say that I don't like Xykon's chances.

[skywalker]

None of a normal ghost's special attacks will do anything against the undead lich Xykon.

Most of those paladins has to have at least a +1 weapon. What are they, level 2?

I happen to think that Blue Bandanna guy is the hero here. Look at his sword. I dunno how ghost touch is described, because I'm too lazy to buy a DMG. But I do know that ghost strike(a synergy ability from MIC) describes a weapon with the property as having wispy white smoke. There seems to be something similar surrounding blue bandanna guy's sword. It could be his time to shine...

[rxmd]

These sentances are perfectly in line with the "although those relying on physical contact do not affect creatures that are not ethereal" part of the stat block... The stat block specifically says that a Touch Spell doesn't work against non ethereal opponents, but makes no mention of that restriction about touch attacks. Heck, it even goes as far as to say that the touch attack ignores armor (unless it is made out of force)... Finally, the if you compare the description of Ethereal and Incorporeal you will see that Incorporeal creatures can physically attack corporeal creatures while Ethereal can't. So unless you can point me to a FAQ from WotC that says otherwise, I'm going to say that a Ghost when it is Manifested, and thus Incorporeal on the Material Plane can indeed use it's touch attacks.

Some of you guys probably are a blast at parties.

(Sorry to pick on you, Porthos, you're not alone.)

[Porthos]

Some of you guys probably are a blast at parties.


You just have to get invited to the right sort of parties. http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/BuckGodot/Icons/groucho.gif

[slayerx]

Xykon does know the ghostform spell. There's nothing stopping him from casting it, moving back and casting (ethereal) meteor swarm. By becoming undead / deathless, most of the paladins hit points actually went down since they've lost their Con-based bonus hp. Even if they manage to make their saves, half of 24d6 is still going to kill any paladin of 6 HD or lower (and he still wouldn't get any experience for killing them). Soon is the real challenge.

Not quite... for one thing, the ghost form speel would be a double edged sword for Xykon... on the one hand, his spells wouldn't have the 50% fail chance, but on the other hand, he would be Ethereal and thus the Martyrs would also no longer have a 50% fail agianst Xykon, PLUS all of their touch abilities will work, such as lay on hands and cure wounds spells...Not to emntion without the 50% chance of Fail, the Martyr's will hit more and thus have a better chance at making Xykon's spells Fizzle, like his last metero swarm (he doesn't really have much room to get distance between him and all of them)

Also, While the ghost due loose the CON bonus, the ghost actually get back some health because their hit dice become D12, as opposed to the normal d10... the switch in Hit dice may make up for some of the loss in HP, especially for those who didn't have high Con bonuses anyway

oh and as for their saves... Ghost get a +4 bonus to the charimsa, which paladins can apply to their saving throws... it's not that much, but it still adds to their survival... and there dmage using smite evil

[David Argall]

Besides the mentioned telekinesis, there is at least one other mob tactic for the ghosts. Every ghost has malevolence and can use it against any creature, not any living creature. So the lich must make a minimum of 50saves, quite possibly several hundred. Will is his good save, but he is only base 13 or 14, and has no wisdom bonus judging by his conduct to date. That means he needs some real good toys or he can fail against DC20, and the DC can easily reach 30 with some of the tricked out paladins.

It would seem that a protection from good would take care of this attack, but so far we seem to have no evidence he has that spell up. If he doesn't have something of the sort, he is down in one round.

[lord_khaine]

i would like to join the "lay on hands can affect Xykon" camp, first of all its a supernatural ability, and its also a posetive energy attack.
Posetive energy ignores the 50% miss chance when used against a incorporal target, so you could also imagine that it would work the other way around.