Self Maintaining Feat?

[Amadeus]

I have a pondering about meeting the requirements of a feat by power of the own feat...

I have a Scout 3/Ranger 2/... character with the Swift Hunter feat (CS p.82).
The feat requires favored enemy and skirmish +1d6/+1AC, which I get from Ranger 1 and Scout 3 respectively.

Here's the stick - when level upping I want to use retraining from PHBII p.192 to switch my 3rd Scout lvl to Fighter 1. (don't judge me, I have my reasons!)

Scout 3 gave me the skirmish needed to take the Swift Hunter feat, if I no longer meet the requirements I lose use of the feat. But thanks to the feat my effective Scout lvl is 4, so I meet the requirements of the feat as long as I have it.

Is this, in you opinion, OK? would you allow it?

[Amphetryon]

If you're asking if this is overpowered, it isn't; casters can do much more powerful things, and tricks like the Dark Chaos Shuffle also accomplish much of what you're asking to do. If you're asking if it would fly at my table, it wouldn't. It reads as clearly contrary to my understanding of the RAW and RAI, regardless of whether other methods of accomplishing the same basic idea would function.

[Amadeus]

I misread the retraining... it doesn't allow replacing previous classes (which is to bad because I have class level I regret and am now stuck with...)

Still, say I lose a level and choose to lose the scout's 3rd, would I still have Swift Hunter?

[Evolved Shrimp]

Still, say I lose a level and choose to lose the scout's 3rd, would I still have Swift Hunter?

No, you must have the prerequisites of a feat before you can gain or use it. A feat can never be used to meet them because you don’t have it before you have it.

[Brova]

Still, say I lose a level and choose to lose the scout's 3rd, would I still have Swift Hunter?

Yes you would. At no point do you stop having the skirmish requirements. In fact, if you laundered all your Scout levels into Ranger levels, you would still keep the feat. This is known as the difference engine.

Note that the difference engine is counter-indicated by the FAQ, but RAW and the Rules Compendium both allow it.

[OldTrees1]

There are examples of self maintaining by RAW.

That said: Personally, I don't allow any tricks that result in characters that couldn't be made in linear time/only forward progression. So I would not allow the self maintaining situation in the first place.

[sovin_ndore]

I think this is definitely one you should be bringing up to your DM. I would personally not allow it as pre-reqs are a part of the intended balancing factor for the game (for Feats, PrCs, etc). I think this is somewhat along the lines of a discussion I once had about 'just in time' prerequisite satisfaction... At that point we were discussing "if Xyz PrC requires three feats, can you take those feats at 1,3, and 6 while simultaniously taking Xyz at 6th level?"; this was also something I had concluded was not koshire in my game.

I don't have the rules in front of me to really intelligently discuss RAW for the retraining option, but even if it is explicitly stated as okay, you are walking a grey area your DM might interpret as manipulation. If there is one thing I have learned in my years of gaming it is that establishing trust between DM and player is probably more important than any theoretical rules discussion.

[Nifft]

I personally never allow retraining to remove prerequisites.

[Twurps]

I misread the retraining... it doesn't allow replacing previous classes (which is to bad because I have class level I regret and am now stuck with...)

Still, say I lose a level and choose to lose the scout's 3rd, would I still have Swift Hunter?

Retraining (PHII p192) does not allow you to change class levels. However..
Rebuilding (PHII p197) lets you do exactly what you want.

Now with regards to your orriginal question. I would probably not allow it, as I don't think it's RAI. But RAW you can do that.

Retraining has provisions to say that your choice of Class-features/feats can only be switched to something you could have chosen at the time.

Rebuilding however has a milder pre-req. It only states that the remaining class levels have to be sufficient to still meet the pre-req's of your new class (if its a PrC). In your case: Fighter has no prereq's, so rebuilding is fine and (as has already been stated) the result is such that your feat keeps functioning.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I used a similar trick to retrain my early entry cheese for my Iot7FV to something more useful. But this was also under a permissive DM whose a close friend, who trusted me to not over do it (which I didn't). So, ya, technically, yes. You could. I just wouldn't push it unless you think the DM would say yes.

[Twurps]

I used a similar trick to retrain my early entry cheese for my Iot7FV to something more useful. But this was also under a permissive DM whose a close friend, who trusted me to not over do it (which I didn't). So, ya, technically, yes. You could. I just wouldn't push it unless you think the DM would say yes.

LOL. So here's someone using 'early entry cheese', 'permissive DM' and 'iot7FV' in one sentence/build telling the guy that wants a level of fighter 'not to push it'.

Don't get me wrong: I fully agree. I just couldn't ignore the irony there..

[Darrin]

Still, say I lose a level and choose to lose the scout's 3rd, would I still have Swift Hunter?

Hmm. I think you may be ok by RAW. PHB says you have to meet the prerequisites in order to select or use that feat. Selecting only happens once when you level up, and you were qualified at the time, so no problem there. Each time you use the feat, presumably it checks the prereqs again... but since you already have the benefit of the feat, I think you still qualify. Might be more of a DM's Call kinda thing, though... There's an argument that once you lose Scout 3, you don't have the "benefit" of the feat until you decide to use it, and you can't use it because you no longer meet the requirements.

Could you be more specific about the problem you're trying to solve? Is it a multiclass issue? Maybe we can find another work-around if we know the specifics?

[MesiDoomstalker]

LOL. So here's someone using 'early entry cheese', 'permissive DM' and 'iot7FV' in one sentence/build telling the guy that wants a level of fighter 'not to push it'.

Don't get me wrong: I fully agree. I just couldn't ignore the irony there..

Some DM's care more about bending the rules to the breaking point, others care about Caster/Mundane balance, others don't care at all. If he was trying to duplicate my expereince, my advice would be the same. Trying this exploit (and most exploits) should be case by case based on the game, the other players and the DM.

[P.F.]

No, you must have the prerequisites of a feat before you can gain or use it. A feat can never be used to meet them because you don’t have it before you have it.

Except in this case he does have it. He was able to take the feat because he met the prerequisites before he took it. Normally, when one loses the prerequisite for a feat, the feat becomes non-functional, but in this case, the effect of the feat (which he already has) ensures that he will continue to meet the prerequisite, even if he later removes the class level which he used to take it in the first place.

That said, this probably would get a rousing chorus of "lolwut, no" in my group.