Draconic Heritage (Pyroclastic Dragon) - Fire or Sonic

[Nifft]

Does that mean the character gets BOTH, or does that mean the character has to pick one or the other?

Thanks!

[BowStreetRunner]

It says OR not AND, so you would need to pick one.

[Nifft]

It says OR not AND, so you would need to pick one.

Hmm.

Is that spelled out anywhere?

I ask because when the game says, "DR 10/cold iron or magic", it does NOT mean pick one -- it means that either alone is sufficient to gain the benefit of penetrating the DR.

[Fouredged Sword]

Dr 10 / cold iron or magic.

To bypass this DR you may choose to use ether a cold iron or magic weapon. Cold iron OR magic will work, no need to have both.

You get Fire OR sonic. Not both.

[Nifft]

You get Fire OR sonic. Not both.

I'm aware of the previous statement, and I'm asking if anyone has a citation. Preferably one from a rules book.

Thanks!

[torrasque666]

I'm aware of your previous statement, and I'm asking if you have a citation. Preferably one from a rules book.

Thanks!
When the rules fail, you turn to the real world. In what world does "OR" actually mean "AND"?

Also, don't assume that because you get the same response its the same person. Its insulting, and shows a lack of actually caring about said response.

[Nifft]

When the rules fail, you turn to the real world. In what world does "OR" actually mean "AND"?

"Or" is used to mean rather a lot of things.

"Exclusive or" is one usage.

"Inclusive or" is the more formal logical usage.

The lack of clarity about the meaning of "or" is why I'm here, asking if there's any place else in the rules which discuss this.

[Extra Anchovies]

When the rules fail, you turn to the real world. In what world does "OR" actually mean "AND"?

It does in the real world, at least sometimes. A Boolean OR function returns a positive if either or both of its conditions are true. Either/or would be XOR (exclusive or). As far as I know, the d20 rules use "or" for XOR and "and/or" for OR. Now say that last sentence out loud five times fast.

[Red Fel]

The lack of clarity about the meaning of "or" is why I'm here, asking if there's any place else in the rules which discuss this.

Here's the thing. Although I don't see anything explicitly defining "or" to mean "exclusive or," I do see the table accompanying the feat, which is a very effective means of illustration.

Let's look at what it illustrates. Of more than 40 dragons listed on that table, the vast majority list one descriptor or subschool, or none. The only exceptions to this are Platinum (any one), Pyroclastic (fire or Sonic), and Styx (poison or disease).

Given that the vast majority have either one or none, and that Platinum explicitly says pick any one, it strikes me as highly unlikely that these two - Pyroclastic and Styx - get the inclusive or, and far more probable that they receive the exclusive or.

Also, go with Sonic.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2xzkdyFYk1qhejhu.gif

[Nifft]

Here's the thing. Although I don't see anything explicitly defining "or" to mean "exclusive or," I do see the table accompanying the feat, which is a very effective means of illustration.

Let's look at what it illustrates. Of more than 40 dragons listed on that table, the vast majority list one descriptor or subschool, or none. The only exceptions to this are Platinum (any one), Pyroclastic (fire or Sonic), and Styx (poison or disease).

Given that the vast majority have either one or none, and that Platinum explicitly says pick any one, it strikes me as highly unlikely that these two - Pyroclastic and Styx - get the inclusive or, and far more probable that they receive the exclusive or. Well, the Styx is kinda an argument for INCLUSIVE, since Poison and Disease are weak.

But Fire and Sonic are strong, and both Fire and Sonic each appear alone in the list as sufficient options in themselves.

Especially Sonic, very strong.

So it's pretty clear which way I will rule if I can't find any rules clarity.


Also, go with Sonic.

Absolutely, yes.

[BowStreetRunner]

The easiest way to understand this is to take a look at the alternatives.

Let's start with damage resistance. DR gives you resistance to all damage EXCEPT the named types. So when you get DR 5 / Cold Iron OR Magic that means that EITHER Cold Iron OR Magic will overcome the resistance. If you get DR 5 / Cold Iron AND Magic that means you need a weapon that is BOTH Cold Iron AND Magic to overcome the resistance.

A few kinds of dam age reduction can be overcome by more than one factor. This kind of DR appears with the word “or” between qualities, such as DR 5/cold iron or good. A cold iron weapon or a good-aligned weapon can overcome such DR.

Now energy resistance works in reverse. Energy Resistance gives you resistance to ONLY the named types. So when you have a choice of Resist Fire OR Resist Sonic you get EITHER Fire OR Sonic but not both. If you were given Resist Fire AND Resist Sonic that would mean you would be resistant to BOTH Fire AND Sonic.

A creature that has resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain energy type each time it takes damage of that type.

So because energy resistance is only to the types named and damage reduction is to everything except the named types, you end up with two very different cases and the AND/OR statements take on very different meanings.

[Nifft]

The easiest way to understand this is to take a look at the alternatives.

Let's start with damage resistance. DR gives you resistance to all damage EXCEPT the named types. So when you get DR 5 / Cold Iron OR Magic that means that EITHER Cold Iron OR Magic will overcome the resistance. If you get DR 5 / Cold Iron AND Magic that means you need a weapon that is BOTH Cold Iron AND Magic to overcome the resistance. Mostly correct. The thing you're missing is that a weapon which is both cold iron AND magic will overcome DR 5 / cold iron OR magic. This is an example of an INCLUSIVE OR.


Now energy resistance works in reverse. Energy Resistance gives you resistance to ONLY the named types. So when you have a choice of Resist Fire OR Resist Sonic you get EITHER Fire OR Sonic but not both. If you were given Resist Fire AND Resist Sonic that would mean you would be resistant to BOTH Fire AND Sonic. Can you point out a creature with "resist X or Y"?

I think a better example for your argument would be the Attack line: "+2 claw or +3 javelin", does not mean you get both, it means you have to pick one or the other. It's an example of an EXCLUSIVE OR.


So because energy resistance is only to the types named and damage reduction is to everything except the named types, you end up with two very different cases and the AND/OR statements take on very different meanings. Yes, that's why I used it as an illustration of how "or" can mean something other than what people had been saying.