Ideas to challenge a group.

[Rockshister]

Hey all!

Hoping I can pick your brains for a minute for ideas to challenge a group.

I have a group of 4, Monk (WotF), Battlemaster, Bard, and a Swashbuckler. All level 5.

The group is very good at stunning/tripping/other wise disabling their targets and shredding them. Having a difficult time putting them up against an encounter that truly poses a challenge to them. Thus far, they have destroyed everything they have come against. The most recent encounter was 3 CR6 creatures that all went down in 3-4 rounds. If I'm understanding the CR system correctly, that equates to a CR 16 encounter?

It's a living construct game, homebrewed races but really nothing to crazy about them. The monk has natural armor, the BM has heightened str, the bard has RP things, and the swashbuckler has RP things. Over all, they all have +1 weapons, the monk with bracers of defense (he's stupid hard to hit), else wise it's nothing but standard feats and good planning.

I want to throw an encounter at them that really tests them, without just flat killing a PC as you may expect by throwing a CR creature that is just well well above grade.

Looking for ideas or tips, things to consider. I should mention, this is my first go at DM'ing in a very long time (since AD&D days).

Thanks guys! Will provide any more info you may need on request. :)

[Malifice]

Bigger numbers of mooks.

A medium challenge difficulty has a budget of 2000xp (4 x 5th level PC's). Hard is 3000xp. Considering the slight buffs youve given to the party, at a ballpark you should be factoring about 2500xp worth of creatures to generate a medium encounter.

5 Hobgoblins (100xp) and a Hobgoblin captain (700xp) is a (1300x2) 2600xp encounter that should prove challenging. Two ettins are about the same xp total, and with 85HP each, and 4 attacks at +7 dealing 14 damage per hit should also prove a moderate challenge for the party.

Also look at flying creatures. The party looks very melee based. A CR7 young black dragon (2900xp) is a medium-hard encounter for the party and (if in the air) could prove more than a challenge.

Finally, are you sticking to 2-3 encoutners per short rest, 6-9 encounters per long rest/ day, and allowing no more than 2 short rests per long rest? Rest and encounter pacing is vital in 5e. Its the core underlying mechanic of ths system.

The monk has 5 ki points to dole out over 2-3 encounters between flurry of blows, dodging, and stunning fist. The BM fighter has 4 superiority dice and action surge to ration over the same 2-3 encoutners. The bard has 3-4 inspiration die to ration over those 3-4 encounters. The Bard has to ration his slots over the full 6-9 encounters in between long rests.

The last point is vital. If you are deviating from the 2-3 encounters per short rest and 2-3 short rests per long rest/ 6-9 encounter adventuring day then the monster/PC (and caster/ martial) balance is thrown out of kilter.

[UXLZ]

Flying creatures is seconded.

Wear them out with attrition - don't let them take rests very easily.

How much AC is the Monk getting from his race? If it's +2 which I suspect it might be that's way too much. 5E was designed specifically to prevent AC stacking/inflation, instead giving different ways of calculation rather than flat bonuses. (10 + Dex + Wis, 10 + Dex + Con, 13 + Dex, etc.)

Skill challenges. The team doesn't look like it would have particularly good survival, try and get them lost in a forest.

[Freelance GM]

The group is very good at stunning/tripping/other wise disabling their targets and shredding them.

As soon as you said this, I thought "Beholder." They hover, so no tripping, and ranged attacks, so the party would have to find creative ways to get close. However, they're CR 13, so you'll have to wait a few levels.


H
Having a difficult time putting them up against an encounter that truly poses a challenge to them. Thus far, they have destroyed everything they have come against. The most recent encounter was 3 CR6 creatures that all went down in 3-4 rounds. If I'm understanding the CR system correctly, that equates to a CR 16 encounter?

Take a look at this. (http://http://donjon.bin.sh/5e/calc/enc_size.html) Still, please read the DMG, so you know how this program works, but once you understand the math behind it, there's no point wasting time to calculate it by hand anymore.

[Falcon X]

Really play up certain aspects of monsters.

For example, here are things I've done with kobolds:
Kobolds are nasty creatures with little thought of self preservation and a knowledge that they will never stand one-on-one against a human. A common scenario will be a person falling into a pit trap with spikes and a beast at the bottom, then a bunch of kobolds circle at the top and start poking the person with spears chanting "fair fight, fair fight." Because that's how it becomes a fair fight.
Kobold Force 5: An elite team of kobolds with adventuring levels hire themselves out as assassins and mercenaries. You follow them to a cave where you quickly realize that they exemplify every devious thing about a kobold. Every five feet is a new trap. They have hidden tunnels and poison darts. When you notice one and chase it, another will hit you with something from behind. They fight a war of attrition with traps and hit and run tactics.
Khar, the All-Watcher: Somehow a kobold illusionist reached epic level (He was half-doppelganger, but that's beside the point). He wanted to test a new illusion on humans.
So, they walk into a cave and look up to see this giant shining light. They don't realize that when they look into the light, they pass out and go into Khar's dream-world. In the dream world, they go through really hard dungeons full of puzzles, traps, and deadly enemies. If they have a Total Party Kill, which my guys did, they wake up at the start of the dungeon and try again. It got really annoying.
Finally, I threw so much crazy stuff at them, that one of them had the bright idea to make a will save. She succeeded and woke up in the chamber with the light. They then proceeded to the next room to fight the boss.

Other unique things I've thrown at my players to offer a challenge:
Shifting elemental acolytes: Okay, so this is straight out of Final Fantasy 5. My players made an epic level ally and were about to join a fight against an epic level enemy. The problem was that he had a barrier around him that protected him from all direct harm. So, the epic ally held him off while the others brought down the barrier.
My barrier: 4 acolytes stood in a square nearby chanting. Each one attacked with one element, and was vulnerable to another. For example: One of the acolytes blasted with lightning, but the only thing that could hurt him was cold damage.
To make matters worse, their elements shifted every few rounds, so the players had to figure out the puzzle and constantly adapt.
My players made it through and killed the epic. Was long and frustrating, but they cheered at the end.
Etherkai and the Worldbreakers concept: http://www.epicwords.com/attachments/3874
- I think you can find more Worldbreakers if you go to his website.

Bogleech's forgotten monsters, because sometimes it's fun to just throw something strange at them

[-Jynx-]

Bigger numbers of mooks.



Also look at flying creatures. The party looks very melee based.


Very much these things. Even small monsters (like goblins) gain pack tactics gaining advantage on their strikes when they're next to their buddies if I'm correct. Flying creatures are also a great option.

My only addition would be to throw smarter opponents at them. Any humanoid can lay a trap, ambush, or otherwise outsmart the PCs and use an environment to their advantage.

[Aurthur]

Make some legendary lair actions to liven things up. Environmental actions like falling rocks or changing landscapes or traps. They seem melee happy, throw in some grappling creatures to mess up their movement mojo. Put some debuffing spellcasters in the mix.

[Shining Wrath]

Creatures you don't want to touch come to mind - add a gelatinous cube to an encounter, or a gibbering mouther, or a wraith. By itself they'll kill it; but as something to make them switch strategies added to whatever you normally planned, it's fine.

[Stormthroe]

Look to attrition, or flight.

For my recent games, my party was sent to find a missing coach in the wilderness while a storm was rolling in; when they found it, it was being ambushed by small group of enemies (the party was level 1, so 4 enemies. a difficult encounter, but the party is made up of experienced players who are pretty clever with their skills and abilities). They fought them off, and after the had time to high five and regroup, they heard a hunting horn sound from the forest, and the NPC they'd saved told them that reinforcements would arrive soon. Since they were already banged up, the party got a bit more creative for the second wave of enemies, which included a more powerful enemy serving as a "leader" for the monsters that really put the PCs on the back foot.

The stipulations I put on the second wave were if the leader was killed, all monsters but the leader were killed, or the combat lasted four rounds, the wave would retreat for a moment due to the PCs tenacity/ruthlessness/what have you. One of the PCs went down in this combat, so I had the NPC they saved crawl to a musket (oh yeah...there's gunpowder in my campaign) and take a shot at the leader, which I used as the excuse for the retreat. The storm started then, adding negatives to ranged attacks and spells and perception checks, but the PCs knew the last couple monsters and the badly wounded leader would return once their nerve built back up. The remaining PCs had spent most of their slots on the first two waves, and the last bit of healing was used to get the downed party member on his feet and to the relative safety of the coach.

The third round can be up to you; if the party is fearing for their characters, then you can cut it there. If they are like mine and excited for the enemies' return, then go ahead and fight it out. Either way, your party should be put in a tough spot as they expend their resources quickly. For added difficulty, use monsters they'd have trouble fightining anyways; flying creatures, or creatures that put up a pretty tough ranged offensive. Building on Falcon's idea of kobolds, yeah they aren't tough; but a whole lot of not tough enemies can put the strain on your PCs, especially attacking in waves. Throw in maybe a young dragon or a few winged kobolds as the "leader/s" and you have yourself a pretty tough encounter. Bonus points if you throw in an environmental hazard, like a wicked storm *hint hint wink wink nudge nudge* that obscures vision and/or makes it hard to maneuver. My check was due to the storm, each time a PC moved they had to take a DC 10 Acrobatics check to stay upright in the mud, and if they were shooting anything they had to do it with disadvantage as bowstrings got wet, driving rain and gusting wind blew their shots off course, and distracted mages miscasted. I also play monsters who use tactics, so once the couple enemies reached the PCs they began shoving them around to force the balance checks.

[Brendanicus]

Try giving them objectives during combat that force them to split up, such as having to defend two covered wagons, protect a surroundef npc, or other things. Also, try using terrain that forces movement, like a ton of archers attacking from across a river, with a few melee mooks on the same shore as the party. Combining these techniques with the monster suggestions above, you can really push them out of their confort zones.

[Belac93]

If the monk has natural armor, I would suggest one of two things.
If his natural armor is a flat + bonus make sure it is no more than +1
If it is like a dragon sorcerer 13/12 + dexterity, make sure it doesn't stack with unarmored defense.
For anything else I may have missed, make sure it doesn't stack with unarmored defense. That can get really overpowered.
Also, read the rules for encounter design on page 82 of the DMG.

[Rockshister]

Thanks all for the tips so far!

After reading through, I see one of the things that has been done totally wrong at this point. To date, they have had plenty of time between 'each' encounter for a full rest. It's always been one big fight (or intended to be), encounter, one big fight, encounter. etc. Not sure why I haven't thought of this already, but yes it makes total sense that this is where a large part of the groups ability to overpower groups has come from. Each time they get to go full out on every group.

I have looked at flying creatures, in the recent one I through a wyvren at them (one of the 3 cr6 creatures they fought). problem there was they were hidden, and the encounter group ended up landing so close to their location that in the first round the jacked the wyvren up severe enough that after it took flight it lasted 1 round of being hit with arrows before it fell. Though I admit, I think I handled the flying aspect wrong. I need to look that over again.

The ideas of fighting things that are primarily ranged and/or things you don't want to touch is also a great idea! I'll defiantly look into this more. They are a melee heavy group, and they know it. Stating that a caster or anything with range would be their downfall when they started the game. Sadly, to date every caster or archer they have come across they make primary target and eliminate that threat with haste. So ultimately it doesn't seem to slow them down.

I have thought about sending larger numbers of things at them, but there are situations where more numbers wouldn't make sense. For example, we just had an encounter with another construct, a dragon born, and about 8 little hirelings (cr2 if I remember right). Thinking the numbers would make the difference. But there again they mowed through the group of hirelings as though they were nothing, then focused down the dragon born, and finished with the construct. All in total, about 6 rounds of combat.

I will have to talk with the player on the monk and other DM. At first it was a +2 ac for natural armor (racial), then the bracers for an additional amount of armor because he failed to catch the 'unarmored defense' bonus monks get. None of us caught this until the second session, at which point we said "Eh, go ahead and keep it." .. thinking it was a melee heavy group and wouldn't be bad having someone that could hardly be hit. Now I'm seeing how bad it really is. I'll have to talk with the player and other DM to see how they feel about toning this down a bit.

Again thanks so much for the advice!

[Brendanicus]

The ideas of fighting things that are primarily ranged and/or things you don't want to touch is also a great idea! I'll defiantly look into this more. They are a melee heavy group, and they know it. Stating that a caster or anything with range would be their downfall when they started the game. Sadly, to date every caster or archer they have come across they make primary target and eliminate that threat with haste. So ultimately it doesn't seem to slow them down.Verticality is awesome. Putting a high-level archer or mage on top of a cliff, a third-story window, guard tower, flying mount or hidden tree-house could seriously hinder your players.

On a more urban note, having a ranged assassin could really mess with them, as a Rogue Assassin could drop their equipment and run should players decide to enter a building to pursue. A Rogue could even use their agility to run from rooftop to rooftop if they really need to haul ass.

Likewise, A Mage Sniper Assassin could use Disguise Self of a similar ability to escape pursuit, only to move back into position when the players give up the chase. Forcing players to shove their way through crowds while trying to get indoors is only part of the fun.

Also, mooks and existing terrain aren't the only things that can slow down melee attackers. Try using barricades, ditches, moats, traps, and other man-made obstacles to halt the advance.

[Flashy]

I will have to talk with the player on the monk and other DM. At first it was a +2 ac for natural armor (racial), then the bracers for an additional amount of armor because he failed to catch the 'unarmored defense' bonus monks get. None of us caught this until the second session, at which point we said "Eh, go ahead and keep it." .. thinking it was a melee heavy group and wouldn't be bad having someone that could hardly be hit. Now I'm seeing how bad it really is. I'll have to talk with the player and other DM to see how they feel about toning this down a bit.

One way to justify changing this is that you used a natural armor calculation that doesn't exist in 5e. Natural armor doesn't give bonuses on top of other armor, it only ever changes the armor calculation like manufactured armor. So natural armor would set a character's AC to 13+dex instead of 10+dex, but that would not stack with any other changed armor calculation (including unarmored defense). You could use your natural armor calculation or your unarmored defense calculation, but not both.

[Gllibird]

Have them fight themselves (give the shadow clones or whatever a moderate enough debuff so that the outcome isn't pure 50/50) in a room with alternating gravity in certain areas, maybe including hints to what squares (if using the battle grid) change gravity by means of illusionary numbers and a mine sweeper system. they should be closely matched, so it will come down to more of using the gravity and any other terrain features/obstacles (ex. spike traps) instead of just stunning and killing, because the opponents do it too. If things get too hectic, think about having a killswitch for the dopplegangers. the goal is to make them struggle and succeed, not to kill them.

[eastmabl]

As soon as you said this, I thought "Beholder." They hover, so no tripping, and ranged attacks, so the party would have to find creative ways to get close. However, they're CR 13, so you'll have to wait a few levels.

Look at the hover ability - air elementals have it, as do spectators (baby beholders). But don't straight out negate the party's abilities. Sprinkle these things in so it's not quite like a game of paper-rock-scissors where you know the party can only throw rock.

Or, look at monsters that grapple. The otyugh is a great CR 5 monster which has some cool grappling abilities.

[Brendanicus]

Another fun idea: gates. In video games and tabletop, isn't it odd how the bad guys always leave the big gate to their castle open, or better yet, open upon seeing the player show up?

Have the players take on a simple mission: beating some brigands* out of an old fortress. When players get to the fortress, all entrances and exits are closed. All the bad guys are on top of the walls, letting forth many arrows. If the enemy has designated melee fighters, have them either join the archers, hide by closed gates with attacks Readied, or have them be bodyguards to important NPC's.

Players will have to figure out how to get into a locked-up fortress. Leave it to them to plan. Options could include:

Breaking the door down
Circumventing the gates (Flight, digging, crazy Monk acrobatics)
Infiltrating the base (Have the Swashbuckler disguise himself as a recruit)
Hide, and wait for the brigands to open the gate. They have to leave sometime.


*Brigands are just an example. It could be Orcs, bandits, Goblinoids, an underground Duergar stronghold, or anything you want.

[mephnick]

After reading through, I see one of the things that has been done totally wrong at this point. To date, they have had plenty of time between 'each' encounter for a full rest. It's always been one big fight (or intended to be), encounter, one big fight, encounter. etc. Not sure why I haven't thought of this already, but yes it makes total sense that this is where a large part of the groups ability to overpower groups has come from. Each time they get to go full out on every group.

This is the biggest mistake most inexperienced DMs make in regards to encounter building, so don't worry about it. The underlying math of the entire system is based on the amount of encounters between short and long rests. You can easily kill or coddle your party if you mess around with it too much.

[Malifice]

Thanks all for the tips so far!

After reading through, I see one of the things that has been done totally wrong at this point. To date, they have had plenty of time between 'each' encounter for a full rest. It's always been one big fight (or intended to be), encounter, one big fight, encounter. etc. Not sure why I haven't thought of this already, but yes it makes total sense that this is where a large part of the groups ability to overpower groups has come from. Each time they get to go full out on every group.

I have looked at flying creatures, in the recent one I through a wyvren at them (one of the 3 cr6 creatures they fought). problem there was they were hidden, and the encounter group ended up landing so close to their location that in the first round the jacked the wyvren up severe enough that after it took flight it lasted 1 round of being hit with arrows before it fell. Though I admit, I think I handled the flying aspect wrong. I need to look that over again.

The ideas of fighting things that are primarily ranged and/or things you don't want to touch is also a great idea! I'll defiantly look into this more. They are a melee heavy group, and they know it. Stating that a caster or anything with range would be their downfall when they started the game. Sadly, to date every caster or archer they have come across they make primary target and eliminate that threat with haste. So ultimately it doesn't seem to slow them down.

I have thought about sending larger numbers of things at them, but there are situations where more numbers wouldn't make sense. For example, we just had an encounter with another construct, a dragon born, and about 8 little hirelings (cr2 if I remember right). Thinking the numbers would make the difference. But there again they mowed through the group of hirelings as though they were nothing, then focused down the dragon born, and finished with the construct. All in total, about 6 rounds of combat.

I will have to talk with the player on the monk and other DM. At first it was a +2 ac for natural armor (racial), then the bracers for an additional amount of armor because he failed to catch the 'unarmored defense' bonus monks get. None of us caught this until the second session, at which point we said "Eh, go ahead and keep it." .. thinking it was a melee heavy group and wouldn't be bad having someone that could hardly be hit. Now I'm seeing how bad it really is. I'll have to talk with the player and other DM to see how they feel about toning this down a bit.

Again thanks so much for the advice!

Have a read of the DMG in the building encounters section. The default number of encounters per day is around 8, with short rests permitted every 2-3 encounter.

You should stick to this pacing at least 50 percent of the time.

DND is a resource management game, and you need to be pushing the PCs to manage resources (second wind, sup dice, Ki, spell slots, inspiration dice, action surge, hit points and HD etc.

With single encounter days, you're permitting nova strikes - it's no wonder your encounters are getting smashed!

Try a timed adventure. 4 hours to save the princess type of thing with 8 encounters close together needing 4 hours to over come. Use other macguffins to enforce the 8 encounter adventuring day as often as possible (aim for 50 percent of the time as a baseline). The players will naturally start to marshal resources even on the single encounter days as they'll never be sure if this is one or not.

Also regulate rest periods. Allow one short rest every 2-3 encounters, and no more than 2-3 per long rest (with encounters spread out in between).

It'll make a marked difference in your game.

[MaxWilson]

Fire Elementals. Each successful hit on a fire elemental does about as much damage to you as it does to the elemental, after you take its resistance to non-magical weapons into account. Then it moves through your space and sets you on fire (Fire Form), to boot, without even spending an action to do so. Then it attacks you with its actual flame attack.

I've seen one fire elemental nearly take down three umber hulks. Lucky rolls on its part, but still... one or two of these guys will mess up your party's whole day if they're melee-oriented.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Perhaps a combination of some ranged attackers and a large number of weak melee mooks to tarpit them - Kobold Sorcerers and their followers, Gnoll Rangers with Goblin slaves, Necromancers and zombies, etc. That'd challenge the party without making any of them feel useless (because they'll still be dropping enemies rapidly, it's just that most of them won't be very important) - a problem with some of the other suggestions (e.g. flying enemies - it's quite likely some of them will have no way of attacking a flyer).