Sword of the Stars!

[Cikomyr]

Just dusted off the old game recently. Man do i love that game. Especially with the ACM mod, which i recommend to anyone who wants to spice up things.

I dont think there's ever been a game with more awesome representation of 3d space combat. Where the fights are determined not by rolling dices, but actually having weapon fire with a dispersion cone. Manoeuvres, weapon angles, etc..

In my current game of ACM, i wanted to try the Tarkas for the first time with that mod. Basically the ones most similar to Star Trek's Starfleet, with standard Warp travel, nacelles and effective beam weapons.

Been attacked by a fleet of Liir ships equipped with Torpedoes, and scrambled to build a makeshift defense. Turns out the Energy Lances of the Tarkas are effective Point Defense weapons!

This is the sort of accidental happenstance that i love in this game.

[Hunter Noventa]

It's always been a solid game, if somewhat sluggish and suffering from some UI issues at times. I dusted it off for a little while the other day, but instead found myself playing Sins of a Solar Empire instead.

Maybe I'll fire it up again soon, there was something magical about fielding a Command Dreadnought and an entire fleet of Cloaked Phaser Destroyers.

[The Hellbug]

One of my favorite games of all time (after the expansions, of course). Loved basically everything about it ( althoughthe aforementioned UI was quite a mess and some of the games systems weren't explained very well--I'm looking at you optimal researching) from the randomized tech trees to the dumb events to the different races being differentiated mainly by drives systems to the terrible, terrible voice acting. There's nothing quite like a turn 102 World Eater. You just have to pray at that point (though I loved the dumb trick against him with the disabling torpedoes).

[Aotrs Commander]

I have yet to find a space 4X that is superior. Despite the flaws in SotS and SotS2 (which I consider - at the point - to be of the about same level, but in different areas) - and both games do have more than a few - I haven't found anything that does it better.

Galciv arguably does the economy better (but the combat is utterly devoid of interest); Moo3 had a grand scale, but hat made it almost too big for its own good; Space Empire V (after using fanmods) wasn't bad at all, but the combat in the end was a bit too flat; Moo2 I wasn't struck by at all; Sins of a Solar Empire was alright, but lacking both a story campaign and the ability to design your ships in the end I've found it just had no draw for me in the end. Empire at War did a grand job for what it did (and once my TIE Fighter run in concluded, I may well have a stab with the Thrawn's Revenge mod).

Nothing else I've looked at that's out at the moment has ever really hit the right level for me.

[Dragonus45]

I have yet to find a space 4X that is superior. Despite the flaws in SotS and SotS2 (which I consider - at the point - to be of the about same level, but in different areas) - and both games do have more than a few - I haven't found anything that does it better.

Galciv arguably does the economy better (but the combat is utterly devoid of interest); Moo3 had a grand scale, but hat made it almost too big for its own good; Space Empire V (after using fanmods) wasn't bad at all, but the combat in the end was a bit too flat; Moo2 I wasn't struck by at all; Sins of a Solar Empire was alright, but lacking both a story campaign and the ability to design your ships in the end I've found it just had no draw for me in the end. Empire at War did a grand job for what it did (and once my TIE Fighter run in concluded, I may well have a stab with the Thrawn's Revenge mod).

Nothing else I've looked at that's out at the moment has ever really hit the right level for me.

Are you familiar with Endless Space?

[Silfir]

I auto-resolve all the battles. Still the most fun I've ever had with a space 4X.

It's a combination of having a really quite interesting tech tree system and an almost Alpha Centauri-like degree of sheer sci-fi flavour, as well as the fully 3D space map, and the variety in FTL travel methods that gives each race a truly unique feel.

[Cikomyr]

Are you familiar with Endless Space?

The space battles are slightly less good than SotS, but at the exact opposite of the scale.

Where as SotS is pure simulationist, with positioning, firing arc, weapon spread and aiming, Endless Space is all about a cinematic experience of the space battles.

[Aotrs Commander]

Are you familiar with Endless Space?

I've heard of it and looked into it, but as a starship wargamer but the combat mechanics are a deal-breaker; I want to FIGHT starship battles, not just sit watching them. I'll grant you, it's a BIG step up from something like GalCivII where the battles weren't even entertaining to watch... but it still does nothing for me. Game starship battles, I personally find, never really quite capture the same sort of impact as TV or movie starship battles (see especially Babylon 5), so just selecting an action at three phases and sitting to watch doesn't appeal to me.

(Even MoO3, crude as it was, had some element of direct command and control.)

It's what Gratuitous Space Battles lost my interest in the end; there was only so much I could play before the spectacle no longer helf anything for me (with the absense of story).

Hense why SotS still stands for me; I've yet to find another 4X why manages to combine starship customisation with a decent RTS battle system to use them with.

[MLai]

I've heard of it and looked into it, but as a starship wargamer but the combat mechanics are a deal-breaker; I want to FIGHT starship battles, not just sit watching them. Hense why SotS still stands for me; I've yet to find another 4X why manages to combine starship customisation with a decent RTS battle system to use them with.
Based on your likes, Commander, do you read SOTS After Action Reports? They're basically space navy sim fanfics which ppl write based on their SOTS games, either heavily or loosely. I got addicted to them for awhile. I'd think these AAR fics would be right up your alley.

[houlio]

I've always enjoyed SotS. I was last playing a pretty brutal game as the Humans where I missed out on Neutronium Rounds, Phasers, Lancers, and Point Defence Systems (and some other high end techs, been a few months since I last booted it up). So far I've been crushing the remains of the Morrigi, but the Liir and I have been dueling over their planets. I remember thinking I was ahead when I swept away a couple of their cruiser fleets with some impactor dreadnoughts (the best weapon I can currently chug out), only to get blown away by those cursed Liir antimatter projectors.

[MLai]

So far I've been crushing the remains of the Morrigi, but the Liir and I have been dueling over their planets.
Why would anybody declare war on the Liir? I've learned my lesson with them long ago: They are fanatically relentless when it comes to war.
But if you're even remotely nice to them, they're guaranteed friends. It's almost never worth the planets in question to invade them for some temporary uptick in your economy, as they make much better allies for the entire game. I always nurture them to make sure they're as strong as possible, even if that means stronger than me.

I find it hilarious that some players distrust "the fish" with every fiber of their being. :smalltongue:

Edit: As for me, I'm currently playing SOTS: The Pit. It's a surprisingly addictive dungeon roguelike set in the SOTS universe. I love this cheesy universe and wish there's a TV series on it.

[Rockphed]

I've always enjoyed SotS. I was last playing a pretty brutal game as the Humans where I missed out on Neutronium Rounds, Phasers, Lancers, and Point Defence Systems (and some other high end techs, been a few months since I last booted it up). So far I've been crushing the remains of the Morrigi, but the Liir and I have been dueling over their planets. I remember thinking I was ahead when I swept away a couple of their cruiser fleets with some impactor dreadnoughts (the best weapon I can currently chug out), only to get blown away by those cursed Liir antimatter projectors.

Been a while since I played, but I remember node missiles being way overpowered. Like easily able to build a couple hundred of them and able to nuke a planet or 12 without worrying about reprisal. Then take my ships to the next planet.

You cannot colonize the planet until you wipe the defense platforms, but not having the planet fire missiles at you is quite the bonus.

[Cikomyr]

Why would anybody declare war on the Liir? I've learned my lesson with them long ago: They are fanatically relentless when it comes to war.
But if you're even remotely nice to them, they're guaranteed friends. It's almost never worth the planets in question to invade them for some temporary uptick in your economy, as they make much better allies for the entire game. I always nurture them to make sure they're as strong as possible, even if that means stronger than me.

I find it hilarious that some players distrust "the fish" with every fiber of their being. :smalltongue:

Edit: As for me, I'm currently playing SOTS: The Pit. It's a surprisingly addictive dungeon roguelike set in the SOTS universe. I love this cheesy universe and wish there's a TV series on it.

I declares war on 3 of the Liir's AI in my current game, because the bloody AI cant unserstand that "peaceful resolution" automated choice doesnt include bombing the **** of a colony.

Well.. Okay. 2 Liir AI. Another i genuinely attacked their colony. But only because i felt they undercut my colonial effort in that cluster deliberately and stole a world i had claimed.

Liirs can be bastards.

[Leecros]

Edit: As for me, I'm currently playing SOTS: The Pit. It's a surprisingly addictive dungeon roguelike set in the SOTS universe. I love this cheesy universe and wish there's a TV series on it.

I bought The Pit around the time it first came out and i have....er...almost 200 hours into it.


I've only managed to beat it once....on easy....before any of the DLC...with The Scout. which is in my opinion the most balanced between the three "Initial" classes with Marine heavily on the combat side with little in the way of utility and Engineer on the other side with lots of utility but not a lot of great starting combat gear.

[MLai]

But only because i felt they undercut my colonial effort in that cluster deliberately and stole a world i had claimed. Liirs can be bastards.
Oh I didn't say they're not needy whiny little er fish. When I'm allies with them, the only thing I hear every other turn is "I want Naibiruru." "I want Andor." "I want Hydra." "I want I want I want." It's like having 6 year olds in the back of your car; no wonder everyone else in the galaxy hates them.


I've only managed to beat it once....on easy....before any of the DLC...with The Scout. which is in my opinion the most balanced between the three "Initial" classes with Marine heavily on the combat side with little in the way of utility and Engineer on the other side with lots of utility but not a lot of great starting combat gear.
I got all the DLCs. Unfortunately it looks like Kerberos wants to stop making DLCs for the game, and go on to make The Pit 2. I'm leery of their sequels. Perfect games don't need no sequels. Just expansions.

Well, the game's not perfect. Turning directions should cost movement points.

I've only beaten it once... on easy... Engineer. I personally think Engineer is the best class... on Easy. Because his early weakness is negated by Easy Mode for the first 75% of the game. And in the last 25% he has accumulated enough gear and abilities to be unstoppable. Marine is impossible to beat the game with, using any normal non-munchkin playstyle. Same with the bugger, who's even dumber.

[Leecros]

I got all the DLCs. Unfortunately it looks like Kerberos wants to stop making DLCs for the game, and go on to make The Pit 2. I'm leery of their sequels. Perfect games don't need no sequels. Just expansions.

I certainly wouldn't mind a Pit 2 if they did it well enough. I'm just not entirely sure what more they would add. this goes for more DLC as well, but the game as it is feels largely completed. I suppose they could add more classes/floors/recipes/enemies, but there's already so many of all of those.

the only thing really lacking is a Loa character. I'd throw better graphics there too, but nobody plays roguelikes for the graphics. However, nicer graphics never hurt as long as the company doesn't cut gameplay to compensate(which is...unfortunately what usually happens).


Well, the game's not perfect. Turning directions should cost movement points.

My only complaint about that is that it would make the Striker who only has one movement point really difficult.


I've only beaten it once... on easy... Engineer. I personally think Engineer is the best class... on Easy. Because his early weakness is negated by Easy Mode for the first 75% of the game. And in the last 25% he has accumulated enough gear and abilities to be unstoppable. Marine is impossible to beat the game with, using any normal non-munchkin playstyle. Same with the bugger, who's even dumber.

Personally i've found the Shephard and Lich to be the hardest while the Scout, Engineer, and Seeker regularly reach the top 10 on my high scores.

[Cikomyr]

Oh I didn't say they're not needy whiny little er fish. When I'm allies with them, the only thing I hear every other turn is "I want Naibiruru." "I want Andor." "I want Hydra." "I want I want I want." It's like having 6 year olds in the back of your car; no wonder everyone else in the galaxy hates them.

It's even worse for me. I had a fledging colony in their cluster, bona-fide, and another AI struct at it and wiped it out. Before I had time to send a new expedition with sufficient force to defend it and re-colonize it, they just outright stole it.

Bunch of ingrate bastards.

So I wiped out their new colony and put myself there.

[MLai]

I certainly wouldn't mind a Pit 2 if they did it well enough. I'm just not entirely sure what more they would add. this goes for more DLC as well, but the game as it is feels largely completed. I suppose they could add more classes/floors/recipes/enemies, but there's already so many of all of those.
Well, for 1 we need a Loa character to complete the set (they're prolly saving that for Pit 2, ofc). 2nd, more recipes never hurt. Currently the game has too many impractical ingredients and recipes, for example ingredients which are good for nothing except for 1 obscure recipe. All ingredients should always be usable for multiple recipes, and better yet I should be allowed to break down items into its component ingredients (maybe doing so lowers their durability, etc).


My only complaint about that is that it would make the Striker who only has one movement point really difficult.
Well, the other half of that change is all characters get +1 extra movement point.
If only the game is moddable...


Personally i've found the Shephard and Lich to be the hardest while the Scout, Engineer, and Seeker regularly reach the top 10 on my high scores.
I don't see how you can place the Shepherd and the Lich on the same level of difficulty... the Lich is in a class of his own in terms of eagerness-to-die.



It's even worse for me. I had a fledging colony in their cluster, bona-fide, and another AI struct at it and wiped it out. Before I had time to send a new expedition with sufficient force to defend it and re-colonize it, they just outright stole it. So I wiped out their new colony and put myself there.
LOL, I wish the game allowed a special class of unmarked ships built to look like pirates/slavers. The perfect ship class to take out nascent colonies of allies whose planets you want.

[Leecros]

I don't see how you can place the Shepherd and the Lich on the same level of difficulty... the Lich is in a class of his own in terms of eagerness-to-die.


I'm not saying they're on the same level, just that they're the hardest. At least in my eyes. With the more combat-focused characters, you can at least brute force your way through the first part of the game.

[Cikomyr]

LOL, I wish the game allowed a special class of unmarked ships built to look like pirates/slavers. The perfect ship class to take out nascent colonies of allies whose planets you want.

"Anonymous Privateers" would be fun indeed.

But for game balance purpose, id have them being fully controlled by the AI (as they are outside your chain of command) and might eventually turn on you for private gains. Like raiding your trade

[houlio]

Why would anybody declare war on the Liir? I've learned my lesson with them long ago: They are fanatically relentless when it comes to war.
But if you're even remotely nice to them, they're guaranteed friends. It's almost never worth the planets in question to invade them for some temporary uptick in your economy, as they make much better allies for the entire game. I always nurture them to make sure they're as strong as possible, even if that means stronger than me.

I find it hilarious that some players distrust "the fish" with every fiber of their being. :smalltongue:

It was a long time ago, but I think they blew up one of my colonies after kicking in the face of some Morrigi and Tarka who were encroaching on me. Or maybe I forgot to hit the don't shoot and autoresolve button or something like that one turn.

I don't really remember who fired the first shot, but does really even matter anymore?


Been a while since I played, but I remember node missiles being way overpowered. Like easily able to build a couple hundred of them and able to nuke a planet or 12 without worrying about reprisal. Then take my ships to the next planet.

You cannot colonize the planet until you wipe the defense platforms, but not having the planet fire missiles at you is quite the bonus.

I haven't managed to hit the Liir planets yet, but their ships terrify me. I think I have a stronger economy than them if I remember, but their tech advantage is a little terrifying.

I'll try to remember that the next time I manage to have the time to reboot it. It's the first time I really ever played as humans (normally I'm the Hivers or the Tarka).

[MLai]

"Anonymous Privateers" would be fun indeed. But for game balance purpose, id have them being fully controlled by the AI (as they are outside your chain of command) and might eventually turn on you for private gains. Like raiding your trade
That sounds like it would actually be easier to program anyways. Just take the current "random raiders" code, and tweak it so that you can summon it against specific colonies by paying a fee. Due to their weakness, they'd be useful only against small undefended colonies. The tradeoff is you'll get an increase in raids in your sectors because you're turning a blind eye to piracy. And sometimes the opposing gov't traces the money trail back to you.

There's so much that can possibly be done to enrich this 4X with just small bits of additional programming. I'd add FTL-like quests and choices, for example.


It was a long time ago, but I think they blew up one of my colonies after kicking in the face of some Morrigi and Tarka who were encroaching on me. Or maybe I forgot to hit the don't shoot and autoresolve button or something like that one turn.
When multiple neutral-to-you parties are going at each other in your system space, I think there's a way to designate who you fire planet/satellite missiles at and who you leave alone. I think it's the small clickable names at the bottom-left of the RTS battle screen. You can set the white dove icon on specific ones.


I haven't managed to hit the Liir planets yet, but their ships terrify me. I think I have a stronger economy than them if I remember, but their tech advantage is a little terrifying.
The computer can do micro with Liir ships that I don't think any human player can manage. No idea how Liir ships can just fishtail all around you in a Bubble Of Death. There's no controls for that!

I'd also like to know how computer Hiver ships deliberately crash into my lines at full speed. That &*$# does actual hull damage, and is scary as &*$# if you have no weapons with kinetic kill.

[The Hellbug]

I'd also like to know how computer Hiver ships deliberately crash into my lines at full speed. That &*$# does actual hull damage, and is scary as &*$# if you have no weapons with kinetic kill.

That one's easy, just play hivers at all! Their ludicrously low acceleration but respectable top speed makes ramming a thing that just kind of happens naturally. Otherwise, they kind of just careen off into space if left unattended. That said, kinetic weapons may not be your answer there, since hivers get the best conventional armor rolls in the game and swapping out for armor piercing rounds loses some of the kinetic effect, if I'm not mistaken.

[Grif]

I'd also like to know how computer Hiver ships deliberately crash into my lines at full speed. That &*$# does actual hull damage, and is scary as &*$# if you have no weapons with kinetic kill.


That one's easy, just play hivers at all! Their ludicrously low acceleration but respectable top speed makes ramming a thing that just kind of happens naturally. Otherwise, they kind of just careen off into space if left unattended. That said, kinetic weapons may not be your answer there, since hivers get the best conventional armor rolls in the game and swapping out for armor piercing rounds loses some of the kinetic effect, if I'm not mistaken.

Best way to kill hivers: any one of those HC Lasers. :smallwink: By far, those are a staple of mine, along with AP Mass Drivers, and unlock relatively early compared to antimatter projectors or cannons.

[The Hellbug]

Best way to kill hivers: any one of those HC Lasers. :smallwink: By far, those are a staple of mine, along with AP Mass Drivers, and unlock relatively early compared to antimatter projectors or cannons.

You play humans mostly, don't you? :smallbiggrin:

[Grif]

You play humans mostly, don't you? :smallbiggrin:

How'd you guess? :smallbiggrin:

(Also Hivers. I haven't really touched Liir and Zuul. Tarkans I found boring, and Morringi a little OP against the AI.)

[MLai]

That one's easy, just play hivers at all! Their ludicrously low acceleration but respectable top speed makes ramming a thing that just kind of happens naturally.
That's what I thought, but my Hiver ships still politely slow down in front of enemy ships and then gently swerve around them.

You know those invisible bubbles all ships seem to have that allow them to softly repel each other? Hiver AI ships somehow have an OFF switch for that. I've had their ships drive right into mine and get completely stuck-in with those supposedly-decorative sharp insect mandibles. I think that counts as constant hull damage because my ship just got torn apart. :smalleek:

[Leecros]

I've had their ships drive right into mine and get completely stuck-in with those supposedly-decorative sharp insect mandibles. I think that counts as constant hull damage because my ship just got torn apart. :smalleek:

Suddenly i want ramming to be a thing. Like actual command section made solely to crash into other ships and an AI capable of actually using it.

[The Hellbug]

That's what I thought, but my Hiver ships still politely slow down in front of enemy ships and then gently swerve around them.

You know those invisible bubbles all ships seem to have that allow them to softly repel each other? Hiver AI ships somehow have an OFF switch for that. I've had their ships drive right into mine and get completely stuck-in with those supposedly-decorative sharp insect mandibles. I think that counts as constant hull damage because my ship just got torn apart. :smalleek:

This just reminds me of the first time I hit a Morrigi mining trap. It was probably one of my favorite experiences with the game, in all honesty. Brand new fleet of 26 fusion-age cruisers, totally wasted.

[Cikomyr]

Tell me about it. In the ACM mod, tech developmebt is seriously hampered, so you have to use what you got for a lot longer.

In my current game, my Tarkas sent an Expeditionary Fleet to the nearest cluster for exploration, colonization and setting a beachhead.

A massive undertaking. 20 colony ships. 30 tankers, 15 Scouts, 30 Battle Destroyers, 5 command vessels. A 13-turn journey.

What do i find in the first planet?! Alien Wreckage! BAM! No survivors.

[The Hellbug]

What do i find in the first planet?! Alien Wreckage! BAM! No survivors.

Two rules to live by: 1) scout first
2) Treat every planet as though it has a colony trap on it (unless Morrigi). Sending a single colonizer followed by the true colonization fleet 2 turns later works wonders.

[Cikomyr]

I could not send a lone scout. It had to be a major expedition to carry the fuel necessary.

And since i dont have transwarp communication, i couldn't just have halted the exploration fleet.

[The Hellbug]

I could not send a lone scout. It had to be a major expedition to carry the fuel necessary.

And since i dont have transwarp communication, i couldn't just have halted the exploration fleet.

I've been there. Once, due to a horribly designed map, there were only 6 planets I could reach via node travel until I hit fusion. I decided to play it anyway because it was against the AI and they need every advantage they can get sometimes. I remember sending a huge colonization fleet at sublight speeds to get out of my locked-off area, only to find that the planet I had chosen had a stupidly large climate hazard. Some thought it would be the end of humanity, but we settled that god-forsaken rock, and a fantastic incursion by the puppetmaster before turn 120 put a couple of my enemies on a more level playing field.

[MLai]

Tell me about it. In the ACM mod, tech developmebt is seriously hampered, so you have to use what you got for a lot longer.
The main reason I don't use big SOTS mods is that the game's AI doesn't know what to do with the revamped tech trees. The way the standard SOTS game AI counters your tech progressively? Gone in any game mod which messes with the tech trees, resulting in braindead AI.