Optimize: fastest flyer?

[MatrixStone93]

Hi, if I wanted a flying character with wings, and a very high move speed/fly speed, what would I have? Max level 10, no more than 4 flaws. Race isn't a big deal, but I'd rather be something around medium-sized(though I don't mind being bigger) with a low STR and CON stat, and high CHA or DEX. I might be a sorceror, or some super-fast fast-flying fast-weapon-using warrior.

[sovin_ndore]

Are we considering spells or specifically permanant fly speed?

[Red Fel]

What about Mercury (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040103a) or Steel (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) Dragon Wyrmlings? They have 3 and 4 RHD respectively, and +2 LA each, so both are playable at the level you mention. Both have 150 ft fly speed with average maneuverability. The Mercury wyrmling is Tiny, but has better stats; the Steel is Small, but has more average stats.

They're not as big or as beefy as you'd like, but they're great fun, and they're some of the fastest flyers around.

[Flickerdart]

A half-fey were-cheetah could make a 1000ft charge, once an hour.

[martixy]

Well...
Be a white dragonspawn? LA+1.
They get fly speed double land and can take dragon feats - one of which is Improved Speed - which gives you 20 fly and 10 everything else, which because your fly is based on land speed nets you a total of +40.
Air Heritage gives another +30 fly.
The Quick trait nets you 10 in exchange for -1 hp/level(so +20 fly).
Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis grants another 10(+20 fly)
There's an armor enhancement that costs 5K(not +1) that's +5.
There's an armor crystal for another +5 MS.

There's the Fast Legs graft that grants +10 land.

Other less reliable, more niche options include:
Speed of Thought - a Psionic feat for another +10.
Travel Devotion
Blade Dancer PrC from Oriental Adventures.
Cheetah's Speed (req. Wild Shape, charge only I think)

[Twurps]

some flying feats to consider:
-Improved flight (CA): improves your fly speed with 1 grade.
-Flyby attack (MM): move before and after an attack (but provoke AoO, see Adroit Flyby attack below)
-Wingover (MM): increases maneuverability
-Hover (MM): hover
-Improved maneuverability (Draconomicon): As improved flight, but can be taken multiple times (up to: good) required improved flight and hover.
-adroit Flyby attack: As Flyby attack, but without provoking AoO's. Requires Flyby attack, hover, wingover.

[Rebel7284]

Shadow Creature increases your speed by 50% for +2LA. It can be stacked on top of most of the builds suggested so far.
Also the shadow blend that it gives is completely ridiculous.

[WhamBamSam]

What about Mercury (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040103a) or Steel (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) Dragon Wyrmlings? They have 3 and 4 RHD respectively, and +2 LA each, so both are playable at the level you mention. Both have 150 ft fly speed with average maneuverability. The Mercury wyrmling is Tiny, but has better stats; the Steel is Small, but has more average stats.

They're not as big or as beefy as you'd like, but they're great fun, and they're some of the fastest flyers around.The current versions for both are in Dragons of Faerun. The Steel Wyrmling still has 150 (average) flight, but the Mercury Wyrmling's flight speed is now 200ft (perfect).

Mercury Wyrmling of War is my jam.

He's considering being a Sorcerer though, so Steel Loredrake might be more his bag. Or he could always Polymorph into a Mercury Dragon. The older ones get even faster, albeit with slightly worse maneuverability.


A half-fey were-cheetah could make a 1000ft charge, once an hour.Note that this requires that you either be a natural lycanthrope (with the extra point of LA that entails), or use the Half-Fey Savage Progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a), and delay the first level until after becoming a Lycanthrope, in order to meet the lycanthrope type requirements. This is a good suggestion though, assuming you don't mind staying in Cheetah form.

There are also feats like Air Heritage and Improved Speed which can boost things even further. Improved Speed requires the Dragon type, which might be a point in favor of the dragon options.

EDIT:
Well...
Be a white dragonspawn? LA+1.
They get fly speed double land and can take dragon feats - one of which is Improved Speed - which gives you 20 fly and 10 everything else, which because your fly is based on land speed nets you a total of +40.
Air Heritage gives another +30 fly.
The Quick trait nets you 10 in exchange for -1 hp/level(so +20 fly).
Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis grants another 10(+20 fly)
There's an armor enhancement that costs 5K(not +1) that's +5.
There's an armor crystal for another +5 MS.

There's the Fast Legs graft that grants +10 land.

Other less reliable, more niche options include:
Speed of Thought - a Psionic feat for another +10.
Travel Devotion
Blade Dancer PrC from Oriental Adventures.
Cheetah's Speed (req. Wild Shape, charge only I think)Cheetah's Speed sets your base land speed to 50 for an hour, rather than actually necessarily increasing any of your speeds. It also gives you the cheetah's "charge at 10 times normal speed" ability though, so if you can keep the Wild Shape uses up, you could combine it with Dragon Wild Shape (into a Mercury Dragon) for 2000ft charges.

Animal Devotion can also increase speed. It's pretty limited if you don't have a large turning pool to fuel it though.

The Freedom Mantle's granted power adds +10 to speed. You could dip Ardent or Mantled PsyWar to get the Psionic Focus necessary for Speed of Thought and get it at the same time.

Another ability to consider is Paimon's Dance of Death. It's a standard action by RAW, so you can use it on a Flyby Attack and effectively move double your speed, while attacking a bunch of people along the way.

Another thing I recently realized, is that since Great Flyby Attack works off a single attack roll, it's a prime candidate to combine with spells like True Strike and Surge of Fortune. I've been fiddling on and off with a Surge of Fortune+Murderous Intent+Great Flyby Attack combo of late.

[Forrestfire]

It's possible to go really damn fast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16594406&postcount=14) in 3.5. With 10 levels and 4 flaws to play with, you can likely go as fast as you feel like. The fly like an arrow spell from Dragon Magazine can be used in place of Cheetah's Speed to save wild shape uses or not need to get them at all.

[Curmudgeon]

Be a white dragonspawn? LA+1.
...
Air Heritage gives another +30 fly.

Air Heritage only applies if the fly speed comes from your race, not from a template.

[martixy]

Air Heritage only applies if the fly speed comes from your race, not from a template.

Don't you mean racial flight?
And isn't that what you get with White Dragonspawn? And the Feathered Wings graft?


Another thing I recently realized, is that since Great Flyby Attack works off a single attack roll, it's a prime candidate to combine with spells like True Strike and Surge of Fortune. I've been fiddling on and off with a Surge of Fortune+Murderous Intent+Great Flyby Attack combo of late.
I cannot reasonably justify to myself interpreting that feat like that.
Single-attack roll multiple attacks are a relic of 3.0.
It is a design pattern that was abolished in 3.5 and good riddance.

[WhamBamSam]

I cannot reasonably justify to myself interpreting that feat like that.
Single-attack roll multiple attacks are a relic of 3.0.
It is a design pattern that was abolished in 3.5 and good riddance.Were there other 3.0 things that worked that way? I know the Lasher capstone ability sets the save DC based on an attack roll, and is an AoE, but that's not really the same.

Unless there's some obvious general pattern of single attack roll, multiple attack 3.0 abilities being changed in 3.5 updates, I don't see any other way that you could reasonably interpret Great Flyby Attack.

[nedz]

Half Fey get to fly at twice their land speed — so just optimise land speed.

[martixy]

Were there other 3.0 things that worked that way? I know the Lasher capstone ability sets the save DC based on an attack roll, and is an AoE, but that's not really the same.

Unless there's some obvious general pattern of single attack roll, multiple attack 3.0 abilities being changed in 3.5 updates, I don't see any other way that you could reasonably interpret Great Flyby Attack.

3.0 being more than 10 years in the past now, my memory has faded, but I am under the impression 3.0 employed this type of wording too frequently to be just a fringe case.
Of course I could be mistaken. We're talking more than a decade ago.

[noob]

Be a wizard then cast phantom steed(you can cast a spell(and have a rapid action) and do move at 4 times the base speed of the phantom steed each round) and cut in cardboard two wings then put them on yourself and for long range travel use teleport.
The only restriction was "flying character with wings"
With teleport you are the fastest and phantom steed gives you both high speed(nearly the one of the fastest dragon) and allows you to use one move action for moving at 4 times the base speed of the phantom steed allowing you to constantly match the fastest monsters in the manuals while casting spells(while the fastest monsters needs to run costing all their actions for reaching you since no monster runs two times faster than you).
So wizard level 10 seems to me a great choice.

[WhamBamSam]

3.0 being more than 10 years in the past now, my memory has faded, but I am under the impression 3.0 employed this type of wording too frequently to be just a fringe case.
Of course I could be mistaken. We're talking more than a decade ago.I tracked down the 3.0 Whirlwind Attack, which seemed a likely candidate. It does not have the one roll, many attacks verbiage that Great Flyby Attack does. I think this is likely less a bit of general 3.0 weirdness, and more a bit of specific Savage Species weirdness. It really is a hot mess of a book.

[ekarney]

This might not be the most optimal list, but it's a list.
Avariel, fly 50 Average, huge bonus to dex, bonuses to Int and Wis, con penalty. LA +3

Dragonwrought Kobold: requires 3 feats, kobold stats.

Winged template: LA +2 Inherited, bonuses to dex, cha and wis iirc, speed and manoeuvrability depend on various things.

Dragonborn can fly with a feat or two can't they?

Gloamings: LA +2, get cha and wis bonuses I think. as well as other cool stuff.

[Curmudgeon]

Don't you mean racial flight?
And isn't that what you get with White Dragonspawn? And the Feathered Wings graft?
I mean a fly speed from your race, just as I stated. Templates and grafts do not have racial benefits unless they say so, and neither Dragonspawn nor Feathered Wings make any mention of race.

If you don't have a fly speed as a racial ability, this benefit has no effect.

[LooseCannoneer]

Are you okay with jumping? Its just like flying, except you can't turn.

Cleric 9/Barbarian 10. DMM Persist Extend Footsteps of the Divine (use that item that gives you more turning attempts). Immediately end the spell. Assuming you started with a move speed of 30, your land speed is now 288,040 feet/round (1,178,345 mph). This is .2% c. You get a +4 bonus for every 10 feet above 30 you can move per round. This is a total bonus of +691,284. Assuming you get a running start, you can long jump a guaranteed 691,280 feet.

Or you can use Pun-Pun and give yourself a Fly Speed of ∞ because that's what Pun-Pun does.

[Darrin]

A half-fey were-cheetah could make a 1000ft charge, once an hour.

Add 5 levels of druid + Cheetah's Speed and you can maybe get that up to 10,000' charge.

10 levels... how about:
Anthropomorphic Cheetah 2/Druid 5/Marshal 1 (LA +2)
Feats: Skill Focus (1st), Shape Soulmeld: Dread Carapace (3rd), Open Least Chakra: Feet (6th), Cheetah's Speed (7th)

80' Fly speed (dire hawk)
+60' Dread Carapace
x10 Cheetah's Sprint (Ex)
x10 Cheetah's Speed feat
x2 Flying down
= 28,000' for a six-second charge.

Speed of sound at sea level is about 1125'/second, or 6750'/round, so that's just a smidge above Mach 4.

[Xervous]

Are you okay with jumping? Its just like flying, except you can't turn.

Cleric 9/Barbarian 10. DMM Persist Extend Footsteps of the Divine (use that item that gives you more turning attempts). Immediately end the spell. Assuming you started with a move speed of 30, your land speed is now 288,040 feet/round (1,178,345 mph). This is .2% c. You get a +4 bonus for every 10 feet above 30 you can move per round. This is a total bonus of +691,284. Assuming you get a running start, you can long jump a guaranteed 691,280 feet.

Or you can use Pun-Pun and give yourself a Fly Speed of ∞ because that's what Pun-Pun does.

Persistent Spell was errata'd to invalidate spells that can be discharged. Chuck was cut down by that update a long while back.

[noob]

Well sadly nothing is as fast as teleportation.
If you use a binding spell to call that exterior who can plane-shift everywhere including into place where it should not be possible you can have a better movement way than flying.

[daremetoidareyo]

Sparrow hengeyokai (although you're tiny) has a 50' fly speed. If you go the fighter route as a tiny bird, you can dip shapeshifter (OA) to get wildshape and take cheetah's speed from complete divine for 10X your speed charge. At level 9, you can dip bladedancer (dragon compendium) for 100' fly speed and a 1 per hour you can move 1000 as part of a charge. (Take gnome tunnel acrobatics, underfoot combat, confound the big folk, improved trip for fun)

1: Fighter (skilled city dweller: trade ride for tumble): bonus: dodge, flaw: mobility, flaw: spring attack, flaw: combat expertise 1: aberration blood (or brand of 9 hells)
2: Fighter: bonus: power attack
3: Fighter: 3: inhuman reach (or mark of minauros (+2 to attack per 10 foot moved in a charge)
4: fighter: bonus: gnome tunnel acrobatics
5: lion totem Barbarian: pounce
6: wolf totem Barbarian: bonus: improved trip 6: pebble underfoot
7: Shapeshifter
8: duskblade:
9: blade dancer: cheetah's speed
10: any high BAB:



But, a tiny size sparrow is so much more fun as a dragonfire adept with strafing breath.

[Darrin]

Persistent Spell was errata'd to invalidate spells that can be discharged. Chuck was cut down by that update a long while back.

Not quite... there was no errata for Persistent Spell. You haven't been able to use it with dischargeable spells ever since it was printed in Tome & Blood. The errata that shut down Chuck (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/Errata_CompleteChampion.zip) was for footsteps of the divine in Complete Champion:

'The two final sentences should read, "You can discharge the spell to add +10 feet to your speed per remaining round of the spell’s duration. This effect lasts until the end of your turn."'

[Flickerdart]

x10 Cheetah's Sprint (Ex)
x10 Cheetah's Speed feat
I don't think those stack - both of them are "when you make a charge, you can move 10 times your normal speed." Your normal speed is not actually modified, and it sets the amount you can move (rather than adding to it) so they don't even add for 20x.

[MatrixStone93]

We need more. MORE SPEED!!!

[Darrin]

I don't think those stack - both of them are "when you make a charge, you can move 10 times your normal speed." Your normal speed is not actually modified, and it sets the amount you can move (rather than adding to it) so they don't even add for 20x.

Speed/distance are real-world values, so as per PHB page 304 you use normal multiplication rules rather than D&D's incomprehensible "additive multipliers".

I was working on a more involved defense of why this should work (or rather why I *want* it to work), but I think you're closer to the mark:

Yes, it's dubious, but sillier things have been attempted in D&D.

[Evolved Shrimp]

80' Fly speed (dire hawk)
+60' Dread Carapace
x10 Cheetah's Sprint (Ex)
x10 Cheetah's Speed feat
x2 Flying down
= 28,000' for a six-second charge.

Cool, but not quite how multiplication works in D&D. Multipliers don't stack, they just add more of the base value. In this case, you'd end up with 140' (base value) times 22 (sum of the multipliers) for a total of 3080' - still not shabby! (Or, if Flickerdart is right, times 12 for 1680'.)

[Segev]

I might have missed somebody else mentioning it, but since you're going Sorcerer, the spell cloud wings from the Spell Compendium gives you +30 ft. to an already-extant fly speed (but will not give you flight on its own).

[Darrin]

Cool, but not quite how multiplication works in D&D.

Take a closer look at PHB page 304:

"When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead."

Speed/distance are not abstract values like damage, they're real-world values, so you use normal multiplication rules (in as much as you can ever use the words "normal" and "multiplication" in any discussion of D&D without killing a few dozen catgirls).

The sticking point as far as the rules go is Effect A sets your speed to a specific value for a particular action, and Effect B sets your speed to a specific value for the same action, and there's no indication that combining these effects does anything other than "Both these values are the same, pick which one you want to use."

[MatrixStone93]

Sorry, turns out that:

1, I cannot be a dragon or have/use magic. Magic items, if they are not homebrew, are ok.
2, the character must wield a very specific type of legendary magic item sword. And by that, I mean a generic b****** sword, a Falchion from Fire Emblem ripoff. Except it gives me a short-range teleport power, too.
3. I want to be able to outfly anything and attack with many, MANY attacks a round.

[TheifofZ]

Well. Sounds like one of my old builds...
Raptorans (Races of the Wild) get fly that is permanently available at level 10, and starts at, I believe it's 40 ft, but I could be wrong and it's only 30. And a cool PrC that gives them foot talons that deal 1d6/1d8 piercing (double damage on a dive [downward charge]), flight feats, and some increases to fly speed.
I started there, grabbed the charge feat for double damage because that applies to dives too, a dip into barbarian for lion totem (pounce), and added multi-weapon fighting so I could actually hit with the foot talons.

With Casters buffing me with Haste and a few other spells, (and bardic music for damage and to-hit), I was hitting close to Mach 1 speed with good maneuverability, and upwards of 500 damage on a charge with my first hit, with 4 more strikes to go from my weapon alone, before I got into the foot talons.
... But I was using a Halberd (piercing weapon) to get that extra boost from diving. So you may want to look around alittle more.

[MatrixStone93]

Well. Sounds like one of my old builds...
Raptorans (Races of the Wild) get fly that is permanently available at level 10, and starts at, I believe it's 40 ft, but I could be wrong and it's only 30. And a cool PrC that gives them foot talons that deal 1d6/1d8 piercing (double damage on a dive [downward charge]), flight feats, and some increases to fly speed.
I started there, grabbed the charge feat for double damage because that applies to dives too, a dip into barbarian for lion totem (pounce), and added multi-weapon fighting so I could actually hit with the foot talons.

With Casters buffing me with Haste and a few other spells, (and bardic music for damage and to-hit), I was hitting close to Mach 1 speed with good maneuverability, and upwards of 500 damage on a charge with my first hit, with 4 more strikes to go from my weapon alone, before I got into the foot talons.
... But I was using a Halberd (piercing weapon) to get that extra boost from diving. So you may want to look around alittle more.

I like it. What books are they from?

Edit: I'm talking about the feats and prcs.

By the way, starting level will either be 1, 4 or 6.

[MatrixStone93]

6. Starting level 6. Also, will levels in Travel/Clerity Cleric help?

[Darrin]

6. Starting level 6. Also, will levels in Travel/Clerity Cleric help?

If Dragonborn is out, then Raptoran is probably the best way to go. You get Diving Attack as part of your Flight package, so make sure you dip Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 for Pounce (Complete Champion), add some Fighter or Warblade levels and you should be set. The only problem would be, bastidge sword is a slashing weapon, and Dive Attack only works with piercing weapons, so you may want to work that out with the DM.

To increase your fly speed, add the Air Heritage feat (Planar Handbook) for +30' speed. Increasing your speed beyond that... might be tough, as most of the Fast Movement stuff (Barbarian, Wildshape Ranger, Forest Reeve) only affects your land speed.

Psychic Warrior 2 with the Mantled Warrior ACF can pick up the Freedom domain (+10' to speed) and Speed of Thought (another +10'), which boosts your speed by +20' whenever you're psionically focused. Dash (Complete Warrior) will add another +5'. There are also some soulmelds (Magic of Incarnum)... hmm. Dread Carapace (temporary burst, 60' +10'/essentia) doesn't specify land speed, so that should work. But if your DM isn't familiar with Incarnum it can be a hard sell.

As far as a Cleric dip goes... Celerity doesn't help your fly speed, as it only gives you +10' to your land speed. If your fly speed is calculated from your land speed, as with some templates (such as Winged or Half-Fey), then it would help, but no such luck with Raptorans. Travel Devotion (swap the Travel Domain for a Devotion, see Complete Champion) would give you the ability to spend a move action to move up to your speed... so while it doesn't increase your fly speed directly, it does indeed have a significant effect on how far you can move in a round. Mostly it's used to set up charges, allowing you to move into position or back away from an opponent so you can then Dive Attack/Pounce every round for 10 rounds. You can also burn Turn Undead uses to use it more than once a day.

[Yaitanos]

My basic speed build is as follows;
Race- Lesser Shadowswift (they have a base speed of 40 and lvl adj +0)
Template- Unseelie fey (half fey get racial fly speed equal to twice base speed and no lvl adj. Just watch out for iron)
Traits- Quick taken twice
Take Air heritage, Fleet of foot (+10 base speed regional), Flyby attack and Great Flyby attack and you'll have a fly speed of 170. I also suggest the Aerobatics feat that gives +5 fly speed and improves maneuverability by one step, followed by Improved flight which does the same. You'll have a 175 flight speed perfect. Combine that with a click of Cloud wings and you have 205. Add a haste affect and 235. If you take Run you have a speed of 1175, combined with the unseelie ability vernal touch you can travel a great distance in a very short time. Also, if you're looking at just overland travel speed, the druid spell Wind at back is great for that. Great flyby attack allows you to attack everything in a line up as a charge with one roll.

[MatrixStone93]

My basic speed build is as follows;
Race- Lesser Shadowswift (they have a base speed of 40 and lvl adj +0)
Template- Unseelie fey (half fey get racial fly speed equal to twice base speed and no lvl adj. Just watch out for iron)
Traits- Quick taken twice
Take Air heritage, Fleet of foot (+10 base speed regional), Flyby attack and Great Flyby attack and you'll have a fly speed of 170. I also suggest the Aerobatics feat that gives +5 fly speed and improves maneuverability by one step, followed by Improved flight which does the same. You'll have a 175 flight speed perfect. Combine that with a click of Cloud wings and you have 205. Add a haste affect and 235. If you take Run you have a speed of 1175, combined with the unseelie ability vernal touch you can travel a great distance in a very short time. Also, if you're looking at just overland travel speed, the druid spell Wind at back is great for that. Great flyby attack allows you to attack everything in a line up as a charge with one roll.

I like this. Would I also be able to get some kind of anti-magic-user thing going on in this build? Occult Slayer seems pretty weak, is there another anti-magic option?