The Heroic Array?

[Seharvepernfan]

If the average array is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8,
and the elite array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8,
what would the "heroic" array be, if there was one?

I don't want to hear "they roll for it" or "pb".

This is an opinion thread, but I'd love to hear your analysis if you have one.

[darksolitaire]

Maybe something like 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8?

There needs to be a 18 there somewhere. And it needs to be playable to every PC class, including Paladins, Monks and Rangers.

[Larrx]

Rolling for stats has its niche, but point buys and array's exist solely to let players build the character they want while retaining some sense of balance or fairness. 3.5 has both in short supply and pb doesn't fix it, so my opinion is to let players chose stats freely. The fighter wants an 18 int or cha? Fine, knock yourself out . . . it'll only make the game more interesting.

That being said, I suppose I should answer the OP's question. If I used a heroic array, it would be 18, 16, 12, 10, 6, 4. Hero's should excel at their job, and should have significant weaknesses. I would not use this array for PCs, but I'm not sure why you're asking, so here you are?

[nedz]

Heroes should have a weakness — so it should have a 6 in it.

Really though Elite Array is fine.

[Vaz]

If the average array is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8,
and the elite array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8,
what would the "heroic" array be, if there was one?

I don't want to hear "they roll for it" or "pb".

This is an opinion thread, but I'd love to hear your analysis if you have one.

To use the differences between the two;

2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 0

So 17, 16, 15, 14, 11, 8.

[Enran]

The MAD classes are pretty much always weaker than the SAD classes in any case. Balance-wise, giving everybody straight 18s actually helps even the score... But of course, it can be weird and difficult for a lot of people to try and distance their RP from their mechanics. Like, "I want to be a straightforward, face-beating Paladin with no book smarts, and I feel like that conflicts with the +4 to Intelligence-based checks and more skill points than I know what to do with." So maybe a modification of an earlier list... 18, 16, 14, 14, 8, 6? Lets people who need multiple decent-to-high stats work it out, but also allows for character concepts related to dump stats. Maybe give players the option of taking two points from one other score and adding them to the 6 if their concept doesn't require standout low stats.

[Cruiser1]

Maybe something like 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8?
Stats of 18,16,14,12,10,8 are often called "Champion Array". That's a 38 point buy from straight 8's (in which increasing to 15 or 16 costs 2 points, and increasing to 17 to 18 costs 3).

[Amphetryon]

I would consider 16 15 14 13 11 10 "heroic array," personally.

[Flickerdart]

The thing about odd numbers is that casters starting as middle-aged basically gain a +1 for free.

I would make the heroic array 16, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8. Heroes should be good at more than one thing.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The standard array is a 15-point buy, the elite array a 25-point buy. A heroic array at 35 point-buy equivalent would be, for example, 16/15/14/13/12/10. If you prefer an 8 in there, 16/16/14/13/12/8. Could also be specialized as 18/18/11/8/8/8, for a bruiser without brain power, or a caster without touch spells/AC needs.

[Brova]

I think there has to be an 18 in there. I also think there probably shouldn't be an 8. So maybe 18/16/14/14/12/10 or something. Could be 18/16/16/14/14/12 for really high powered stuff. Honestly though, I think point buy is just better than an array.

[Mystral]

If the average array is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8,
and the elite array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8,
what would the "heroic" array be, if there was one?

I don't want to hear "they roll for it" or "pb".

This is an opinion thread, but I'd love to hear your analysis if you have one.

18 16 14 14 12 8

[bean illus]

The standard array is a 15-point buy, the elite array a 25-point buy. A heroic array at 35 point-buy equivalent would be, for example, 16/15/14/13/12/10. If you prefer an 8 in there, 16/16/14/13/12/8. Could also be specialized as 18/18/11/8/8/8, for a bruiser without brain power, or a caster without touch spells/AC needs.

I personally like the point buy, and this 35 sounds about right.

18/16/14-11/8/8

16/16/14-13/12/8

16/14/14-14/13/10

[Ruslan]

I vote for 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10

What? It's an unlikely hero, an ordinary person thrust into extraordinary circumstances.

[Calimehter]

I use 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10 for PCs these days. Puts them a step above the 'elite' NPCs of the world (who use the book standard elite array).

[Tulya]

The standard array is a 15-point buy, the elite array a 25-point buy. A heroic array at 35 point-buy equivalent would be, for example, 16/15/14/13/12/10. If you prefer an 8 in there, 16/16/14/13/12/8. Could also be specialized as 18/18/11/8/8/8, for a bruiser without brain power, or a caster without touch spells/AC needs.

I had the same thought on the +10 point buy progression.
If you maintain an odd value for the highest score and an 8 for the minimum score, you end up with a pretty even spread:

17 / 16 / 14 / 12 / 10 / 8

[Robo Koko]

So I ran a bunch of simulations. It rolls 10,000 sets of ability scores, sorts them from high to low, and averages those scores. Essentially it's a program that comes up with the average scores with a particular dice setup.

3d6:

14.24, 12.45, 11.11, 9.86, 8.53, 6.76
4d6 drop lowest:

15.70, 14.19, 12.98, 11.77, 10.44, 8.52 (seem familiar? elite array)
5d6 drop 2 lowest:

16.44, 15.19, 14.12, 13.03, 11.77, 9.89

Generally I would say there's a sweet spot between making your players take 10 10 10 10 10 10, and letting them take 18 18 18 18 18 18. Even if you give them a 16, they're still going to get an 18 in the stat they need most.

Fun experiments:
1d20:

17.61, 14.75, 11.88, 9.08, 6.22, 3.38
3d20 take middle:

16.13, 13.67, 11.53, 9.48, 7.37, 4.88


edit: If you don't want decimal points in your stats (lol), it seems like what Wizards used for rounding was 0 to .74 rounds down, .75 to 1 rounds up.

[Godskook]

Personally, I don't see much point shying away from the 40-54 pb values, and since this thread has a trending line of around +10 pb, I submit the legendary array:

18/16/15/13/12/10

[johnbragg]

Stats of 18,16,14,12,10,8 are often called "Champion Array". That's a 38 point buy from straight 8's (in which increasing to 15 or 16 costs 2 points, and increasing to 17 to 18 costs 3).

+1. I just posted something about it in a Homebrew forum thread. Didn't know the name "Champion Array" though, called it "Heroic Array".

[Judge_Worm]

18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8
That's the array my group actually uses. Works pretty well with MAD classes.

[Extra Anchovies]

I generally take the elite array and give it +2 across the board for 17/16/15/14/12/10.

[DarkSoul]

For the roll20 campaign I'm running right now, I gave them 18-13, arrange how you want.

[Nyaa]

16 14 12 for physical stats and 16 14 12 for mental stats.

[Strigon]

I'd probably go either with high stats almost across the board, with one very high stat and one weakness (something like 18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 6) or something with high average stats and no real weaknesses (16, 16, 14, 14, 10, 10).
When I think "Hero", I either think of someone with massive abilities, but one fatal flaw, or I think of someone who has the skills to get the job done - no matter what the job is. An Obi-Wan Kenobi, if you will; maybe he's not the very top of any particular field, but he doesn't have any great shortcomings, either.

[Aleolus]

My first gaming group the DM let us use his own version of the elite array, which would probably work for this. It was 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13.

[Âmesang]

Two of my favorite characters were built using Pathfinder's epic point buy, albeit in different ways.

Pathfinder Human Ranger: Str 16 (18)/Dex 16/Con 12/Int 12/Wis 14/Cha 7 — Strong, silent type. Doesn't speak unless what she has to say is important or sarcastic, otherwise she avoids attracting attention. Agile and relatively healthy (save for a smoking and drinking habit). Not much for book smarts aside from ranger-related Craft and Knowledge skills, but clever and cunning enough and keeps her eyes and ears open. She backs up her great strength with a steady hand and a sharp eye, as well as quick-footed movements after avoiding the attacks of large, wild animals. Primary weapons are her greatsword and composite longbow; secondary are a pair of daggers and her body (Improved Unarmed Strike/Improved Grapple).

D&D Human Sorceress: Str 7/Dex 15/Con 13/Int 16/Wis 9/Cha 16 (18) — Grew up in an aristocratic family, silver spoon in mouth, with a disdain for melee combat (aside from a dagger of a rare material) and other physical labors (since she always had others to do that for her). Very graceful with a light step, despite her "robust" appearance. Life of the party with a keen intellect, but she's lost in her own, little world, paying little attention to anything around her that doesn't directly involve her. Her moments of brilliance are not backed by any real clarity, so she never really thinks things through… yet it doesn't stop her from being convinced that her plans are sound.

[thompur]

A group I used to play with had the character creation rule of 84 stat points, assign as desired: Max 18, min. 6 before racial adjust. It worked pretty well.:smallsmile:

[martixy]

So I ran a bunch of simulations. It rolls 10,000 sets of ability scores, sorts them from high to low, and averages those scores. Essentially it's a program that comes up with the average scores with a particular dice setup.

3d6:

14.24, 12.45, 11.11, 9.86, 8.53, 6.76
4d6 drop lowest:

15.70, 14.19, 12.98, 11.77, 10.44, 8.52 (seem familiar? elite array)
5d6 drop 2 lowest:

16.44, 15.19, 14.12, 13.03, 11.77, 9.89

Generally I would say there's a sweet spot between making your players take 10 10 10 10 10 10, and letting them take 18 18 18 18 18 18. Even if you give them a 16, they're still going to get an 18 in the stat they need most.

Fun experiments:
1d20:

17.61, 14.75, 11.88, 9.08, 6.22, 3.38
3d20 take middle:

16.13, 13.67, 11.53, 9.48, 7.37, 4.88


edit: If you don't want decimal points in your stats (lol), it seems like what Wizards used for rounding was 0 to .74 rounds down, .75 to 1 rounds up.
anydice is your friend.
Seems a sample size of 10K is enough to accurately approximate those values too I guess.


To use the differences between the two;

2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 0

So 17, 16, 15, 14, 11, 8.
I subscribe to this interpretation.

[atemu1234]

I generally just use PB with 36 points. My players haven't complained yet.