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Dragor
2007-05-08, 10:31 AM
In my party I recently filled the boots of Dawn Nightstrider, a level 7 Bard. However, the debate with my friend here was with what class I should be. Let me explain.

Dawn, I characterized was a knowledge seeker- not like a Sorceror or Wizard, who would most probably want to use that knowledge for their own gain. Dawn simply wants to use knowledge to fund the greater good. Let me explain- inside the Spoiler is my description I wrote of her.

Her very name an oxymoron, Dawn has, since birth, shown a passion for knowledge. From a young age, she was quiet and obedient to her parents, the Nightstriders, who had adventuring blood inside them. It would seem that that blood flows through the veins of Dawn, who scavenges knowledge from every nook and cranny when she can, whatever the cost. She is loyal, chirpy and friendly to her allies, whom she aids and shares concern for. She does, however, resent being told what to do, usually quipping “Knowledge knows no boundaries. I am Knowledge, so I do not answer to you.” Now in her late teenage years, Dawn seeks to break out of the boundaries of Caldera and burst into the world, noting down all anomalies and strange creatures in her way.
It has been noted, however, that Dawn’s search for knowledge is not simply a feigning interest, but a divine destiny. It has been said by many priests that ‘her quest for knowledge will be her downfall; when she finds the Codex, she will die.” Dawn has scoffed at these claims, saying that the priests were ‘deluded, God-fearing fools’, but it cannot be said it has not affected her.
Dawn usually fights with a rapier when in close range. It was not combat she was built for, however, and despite her slim frame and great dexterity, she can be overwhelmed easily by a stronger and heavier opponent.
For an instrument, Dawn plays the Lyre, and has an inkwell, pen and journal at hand at nearly all times. These, she boasts, are her real weapons.


So there you have it. My friend suggested either a Cleric or a Rogue for these- I scoffed at this. He focuses more on playing powerful characters, but I focus on roleplay. Does he have a point? Is Bard not a good class for someone seeking knowledge to use to help people?

silentknight
2007-05-08, 10:35 AM
I agree, sorcerer, wizard, they use knowledge for power. Clerics help people. Bards are a support class, using their knowledge, skills, and powers to help the party and as a natural extension, others as well.

You are most definitely a Bard.

Saph
2007-05-08, 10:42 AM
I've got a similar character, built as a Wizard/Loremaster.

Neutral Good, all knowledge skills, and a high Int to be able to afford lots of points in them. Loremasters get Perform as a class skill, and also Bardic Lore. Interested in everything, loves learning things, and carries a sketchbook everywhere to draw what she sees.

- Saph

Starsinger
2007-05-08, 10:58 AM
Ah but all the ranks in all the knowledges of the world aren't as helpful for someone who collects as much knowledge as possible about everything as possible as Bardic Knowledge. I mean, that ability alone makes Bard worth it. You may wish to get her into Loremaster, which will give her combat abilities a hit, but they'll let her become more of a sage.

Dragor
2007-05-08, 11:01 AM
Neutral Good, all knowledge skills, and a high Int to be able to afford lots of points in them. Loremasters get Perform as a class skill, and also Bardic Lore. Interested in everything, loves learning things, and carries a sketchbook everywhere to draw what she sees.

Basically the same as mine. I always crack a gag at what she's secretly writing about the party....

Dawn picks up her her ink pen and hurriedly writes into her journal. "They're.....all....insane....." and puts away the journal before anyone figures out what she wrote.

Telonius
2007-05-08, 11:02 AM
Bard sounds like what you want. Cloistered Cleric/Loremaster or maybe even a benevolent Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)could work for the flavor, too. I'd suggest checking out the mechanics of the classes, you don't always have to play to the fluff they give you. (i.e. if you really want to, you can play any character with max ranks in Perform).

TheThan
2007-05-08, 11:06 AM
yes, your character is most definently a bard. Oh and bards are not weak, they just take a fair amount of skill to play.

Dragor
2007-05-08, 11:12 AM
(i.e. if you really want to, you can play any character with max ranks in Perform).

The very same friend is hell-bent on making characters who never use Perform take loads of ranks in Perform. :smallconfused:

Oh, and the fluff is entirely my own. It's what I like most about D&D- even more than the actual adventuring. :smallsmile:

ocato
2007-05-08, 11:16 AM
Well, if you want the crunch to fit the fluff, maybe the Bardic Sage (http://http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#bardic-sage)variant is for you.

That's a sort of lore-bard hybrid. I'm not a huge fan but maybe it tickles your fancy

Dragonmuncher
2007-05-08, 11:21 AM
I agree with Bard, simply because they get the whole Bardic Knowledge thing.

I would, however, disagree with the whole "bards are for the common good, wizards and sorcerers are selfish." I can easily picture a selfish bard who searches out lost bits of lore to sell or use for his own benefit. Likewise, I can easily picture a wizard who uses his learning to protect a local village.

Very few classes are inherently good or evil.

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-08, 11:23 AM
"Seeking knowledge to help people" could be any class, just about. Maybe not barbarian :smalltongue:

Seriously, there is nothing in the wizard or cleric description that says "must use magic for personal gain/power." Similarly, a bard could be all about selfishness and using her abilities only for herself. Roleplaying concepts aren't shackled to class abilities.

What you need to be asking yourself is "what do I want my character to be able to do?" Wizard, cleric, and bard all have abilities that can be used to help others. It sounds like you have your character's personality pretty figured out, so you have to decide which class abilities fit what she'd do. Would she prefer to stay in the background and inspire others to greatness? Or would she like to know the secret words that can make a man stronger, faster, or larger? Or how to invoke the power of her god to heal wounds?

Also, what kind of knowledge does your character seek? Ancient legends and lore? The secrets of magic? The mysteries of the gods? The 12 techniques of lock manufacturing, and the best ways to disable each one?

Personally for a knowledge-focused character I would go for a Diviner/Loremaster. You can focus on divinations and buffs, rather than the more "personal power" spells, and you get a lot of knowledge-related abilities like Lore. Furthermore, you can pump your Intelligence for lots of skill ranks, without hurting your class abilities.

Dragor
2007-05-08, 11:43 AM
I would, however, disagree with the whole "bards are for the common good, wizards and sorcerers are selfish."

Yes, I'm sorry about that- it seems after a while, a stereotype becomes embedded in your head.

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-08, 11:43 AM
"Seeking knowledge to help people" could be any class, just about. Maybe not barbarian :smalltongue:

A gigantic ogre stands before you, carrying an equally massive wooden club that seems to be more like a tree-trunk than anything else. He speaks in simple, broken Common, and has a very gruff, hard voice.

See. Krunk leave village so Krunk could find biggest weapon to help Krunk's people. Krunk think that Krunk cannot find big weapon without Krunk knowing where things are. So Krunk search for booky-places so Krunk can find biggest stick.


Any class. Period.

Telonius
2007-05-08, 11:48 AM
The very same friend is hell-bent on making characters who never use Perform take loads of ranks in Perform. :smallconfused:

Oh, and the fluff is entirely my own. It's what I like most about D&D- even more than the actual adventuring. :smallsmile:

I only mentioned Perform since your description specifically mentions the Lyre. I just meant that if playing the lyre is important to the character concept (for whatever reason), you can do that no matter what class you take. In the party I'm in, for example, we have a Soulknife/Soulbow with max ranks in Perform (pan pipe). Since we're level 17 now, some of the Bards in town were looking pretty jealously at him after his DC 36 (or so)performance at the local inn. :smallbiggrin: You're absolutely right, that Bard is the only class that consistently relies on Perform for mechanical stuff. There are a couple of random PrCs (Duelist, Master of Masks, Bladesinger, Dervish...) that require ranks in it, but that's about it.

Dragor
2007-05-08, 11:49 AM
Also, what kind of knowledge does your character seek? Ancient legends and lore? The secrets of magic? The mysteries of the gods? The 12 techniques of lock manufacturing, and the best ways to disable each one?

In bold is my pick. :smallsmile:

Dragor
2007-05-08, 11:50 AM
I only mentioned Perform since your description specifically mentions the Lyre. I just meant that if playing the lyre is important to the character concept (for whatever reason), you can do that no matter what class you take. In the party I'm in, for example, we have a Soulknife/Soulbow with max ranks in Perform (pan pipe). Since we're level 17 now, some of the Bards in town were looking pretty jealously at him after his DC 36 (or so)performance at the local inn. :smallbiggrin: You're absolutely right, that Bard is the only class that consistently relies on Perform for mechanical stuff. There are a couple of random PrCs (Duelist, Master of Masks, Bladesinger, Dervish...) that require ranks in it, but that's about it.

Hmm. I picked the Lyre simply because I liked it, not because it held any standing- although that could be tweaked. :smallamused:

ocato
2007-05-08, 11:50 AM
I, Krunk Krunkenstein of Ogrevill, do humbly return to thee, my beloved peope, with a new hope. I return to you with tidings of great joy, as I have indeed found our very salvation. It is this, a really rather large tree trunk that I have procured with the aid of a very polite druid, who was more than happy to allow me to use it. It had been struck by lightning and felled, you see, and she was happy to see that it could be used to protect my people instead of rotting on the forest floor. Even though we both agreed that decomposition would return vital nutrients to the ecosystem, she was still rather giving in bestowing it upon me. Now, on this day I return to you, and our hated enemies shall quiver in fear at my newfound knowledge of the world around us. Call out the alarum! We shall not be defeated this day!

Krunk was then burned as a witch for using pronouns.

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-08, 11:50 AM
I reiterate the suggestion of the Bardic Sage. It's rather useful.

Dragor
2007-05-08, 11:55 AM
Well, if you want the crunch to fit the fluff, maybe the Bardic Sage (http://http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#bardic-sage)variant is for you.

That's a sort of lore-bard hybrid. I'm not a huge fan but maybe it tickles your fancy

I've tried the link, not working for some reason :smallconfused:

--EDIT--

Just realised the problem- one too many http://'s....

Telonius
2007-05-08, 11:58 AM
Try this one: Bardic Sage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantBardicSage)

ocato
2007-05-08, 12:00 PM
Krunk's linking is flawed! Krunk no good at in-tro-netz! Krunk prefer fish nets.

Krunk and I apologize because we're both sort of slow.

Latronis
2007-05-08, 12:09 PM
Last time i considered doing a similiar character i was looking at beguiler\loredelver

warmachine
2007-05-08, 12:20 PM
In the D&D Wiki, there is a homebrew prestige class called Sage. Don't have the link on my current PC. It can be taken at level 4, has 8+INT skill points, all Knowledge skills as class skills, own version of Bardic Knowledge (my DM has ruled that it stacks with Bardic Knowledge), and choice of class features that grant several Skill Focus (Knowledge) feats. Its balance is rated 7 out of 10. It can acquire spellcasting, including ability to cast Wizard and Adept spells. Homebrew requires DM approval, of course.

I took 3 levels of Bard first and has +18 for many Knowledge skills at level 7. It's fun playing with a gnome cohort that spouts random factoids. You might want the other, unique class features, such as ability to brew potions up to 5th level.

Jewish_Joke
2007-05-08, 04:05 PM
My suggestion is to follow the advice of ocato, for his bardic knowledge bonus is at least 5 levels higher than my own (whether this be from class levels or from an alarmingly high intelligence modifier, we may never know).

Yay, for class variants!

ocato
2007-05-08, 04:11 PM
Or someone just mentioned druid variants on another thread and while reading them I said "hey, I wonder what the bard variants are?" I'm not smart, I'm just lucky like that.

Bauglir
2007-05-08, 05:33 PM
I suggest a one level dip into the Dragonfire Adept class in Dragon Magic. Pick up a juicy +6 on all knowledge checks and Spellcraft (and all knowledges are treated as trained, too) with the Draconic Knowledge Invocation. And you might try the Master of Knowledge feat from Heroes of Horror for another miscellaneous +1. Oooh and if your DM allows Traits, pick up Absent-Minded for yet another +1 (with a -1 on Spot and Listen). I'm sure your Int is as high as possible, so you should have something like +12 in Knowledge skills you don't even have ranks in. Oh, and you'll pick up the Dragontouched feat (+1 Spot, Listen and Search, plus bonuses vs Paralysis and Sleep) and a crappy breath weapon usable 1/round.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-08, 05:51 PM
Krunk was then burned as a witch for using pronouns.

You, sir, are a genius. :smallbiggrin: orz

Lord Tataraus
2007-05-08, 06:05 PM
I personally see Factotum as the most knowledgeable, but other than that a Bard or Cloistered Cleric.

Ditto
2007-05-08, 06:10 PM
You absoluately want Cloistered Cleric. Bardic Knowledge (Lore), scads of skill points, Clericky goodness without wondering why your altruistic character needs the ability to Suggestion people into doing her will.

Jewish_Joke
2007-05-08, 09:51 PM
Or someone just mentioned druid variants on another thread and while reading them I said "hey, I wonder what the bard variants are?" I'm not smart, I'm just lucky like that.

Ah, bardic knack variant ability form PHB II, maybe?

ocato
2007-05-08, 11:01 PM
You, sir, are a genius. :smallbiggrin: orz

I'm glad someone appreciated that.


Ah, bardic knack variant ability form PHB II, maybe?

I have a feat or two invested in knowledge (bards)

Caelestion
2007-05-10, 08:27 AM
That would be the ultimate bardic knowledge, eh Ocato? :)